HS girls stage a walkout as trans teen uses girls bathroom (2 Viewers)

[Mr. Ected]

So if I'm understanding this correctly, the school could easily come under a title IX situation no matter what it decides. If they let this student into the girls locker room, the other girls (their parents) could file a suit. If they don't allow it, this student (her parents) could file suit.

While I kinda agree with Tim's idea of a gender neutral facility, this student didn't want that - and I can kinda agree - instead of being told you'll either use the locker room of the gender you are (which is still male) or of the sex you identify with (which is female), you're going to get this third option and not be part of either group.

Also, to me, for some reason when I was picturing Tim's idea in my head of a gender neutral facility just for her, the first image that popped in my head was of the plywood bathroom built for Aibileen in the movie The Help.

Maybe the 'gender-neutral' facility would be required until the student is physically changed. That way you can potentially ease some of the distress of the students towards the changing student, by their realizing that they are really in this process, not just some guy who wants to try and see if he can change in the girls room.

 

[Henry Ford]

So if I'm understanding this correctly, the school could easily come under a title IX situation no matter what it decides. If they let this student into the girls locker room, the other girls (their parents) could file a suit. If they don't allow it, this student (her parents) could file suit.

While I kinda agree with Tim's idea of a gender neutral facility, this student didn't want that - and I can kinda agree - instead of being told you'll either use the locker room of the gender you are (which is still male) or of the sex you identify with (which is female), you're going to get this third option and not be part of either group.

Also, to me, for some reason when I was picturing Tim's idea in my head of a gender neutral facility just for her, the first image that popped in my head was of the plywood bathroom built for Aibileen in the movie The Help.

Yeah, I think the appropriate consideration in this whole case is "things are kind of f'd up and in flux for people right now."

I get that a group of teenage girls are uncomfortable.

I also get that this teenager who identifies as female - and we have no reason to disbelieve this, or to believe that this is some boy trying to catch a peek at the girls - is also uncomfortable.

The question mark here is how to deal with that discomfort level. Who is being actually harmed as opposed to being just made to feel uncomfortable, and what is the reasonable path through. I don't think there's an easy answer here - the easy one is the neutral bathroom, but there's certainly a level of discriminatory effect that's possible from that, and it sounds like this kid feels that discriminatory effect. Tough call on this.

 

[Fennis]

I said several weeks ago that with gay marriage now codified transgender rights would be the next great campaign for progressives and their allies in academia and the media. The agitations never end, even in the face of logic and natural law. Even the military is getting in on the act. How do you think such accommodations are going to work within the confines of a Navy vessel or a forward deployed fire support base?

This isn't a lifestyle, it's a mental disorder. Cross-dressers on the front line. Madness. Then again, our enemies will be laughing so hard they won't be able to fight so maybe it will all work out.

Father son talk 101:

Son: Dad I'm gay

Father: I understand son, and I'm here for you and love you very much.

Son: Dad I want to be a girl

Father: What?

Son: I'm transgender

Father: get away from me you weirdo. What the hell is wrong with you.

It's good to see progress. For people like you, 10 years ago the father/son conversation for gay would mimic the one you have for transgender.

Ah, yes. The old "you're standing in the way of progress" line. Pretty soon we'll be reading comparisons between Martin Luther King and RuPaul.

no worries. I have no doubt you would still hate your gay son

 

[Henry Ford]

So if I'm understanding this correctly, the school could easily come under a title IX situation no matter what it decides. If they let this student into the girls locker room, the other girls (their parents) could file a suit. If they don't allow it, this student (her parents) could file suit.

While I kinda agree with Tim's idea of a gender neutral facility, this student didn't want that - and I can kinda agree - instead of being told you'll either use the locker room of the gender you are (which is still male) or of the sex you identify with (which is female), you're going to get this third option and not be part of either group.

Also, to me, for some reason when I was picturing Tim's idea in my head of a gender neutral facility just for her, the first image that popped in my head was of the plywood bathroom built for Aibileen in the movie The Help.

Maybe the 'gender-neutral' facility would be required until the student is physically changed. That way you can potentially ease some of the distress of the students towards the changing student, by their realizing that they are really in this process, not just some guy who wants to try and see if he can change in the girls room.

But, there's no reason the student ever has to be physically changed. You don't have to have your penis cut off to be considered to be living as a woman, and to be allowed all the privileges that come along with that. Similarly, if a boy has a freak accident and has his penis cut off, he doesn't suddenly get to shower with the girls. This is just not a simple "If x, than y" situation. What makes it so rough to navigate for all involved.

 

[[icon]]

Just to clarify this point, ICON- let's say this transgender has the full operation, and now no longer has a penis and is outwardly a female. If the other girls still reject being in the same locker room with her, they have no right to do so in your opinion? They're forced in that situation to accept her?

I don't think my point needs a whole lot of clarification. I'm merely stating that if you were born with a penis, and still are equipped with said penis, then you have no ####### business in a women's locker room or bathroom.

Beyond that, there can be discussion.

But that's a pretty simple and reasonable qualfier....

 

[Fennis]

Just to clarify this point, ICON- let's say this transgender has the full operation, and now no longer has a penis and is outwardly a female. If the other girls still reject being in the same locker room with her, they have no right to do so in your opinion? They're forced in that situation to accept her?

I don't think my point needs a whole lot of clarification. I'm merely stating that if you were born with a penis, and still are equipped with said penis, then you have no ####### business in a women's locker room or bathroom.

Beyond that, there can be discussion.

But that's a pretty simple and reasonable qualfier....

you signing up to be the penis checker?

 

[Henry Ford]

Just to clarify this point, ICON- let's say this transgender has the full operation, and now no longer has a penis and is outwardly a female. If the other girls still reject being in the same locker room with her, they have no right to do so in your opinion? They're forced in that situation to accept her?

I don't think my point needs a whole lot of clarification. I'm merely stating that if you were born with a penis, and still are equipped with said penis, then you have no ####### business in a women's locker room or bathroom.

Beyond that, there can be discussion.

But that's a pretty simple and reasonable qualfier....

Does Caitlyn Jenner get to use the women's bathroom? I can actually answer that. The answer is yes. Are you okay with that?

 

[TPW]

I said several weeks ago that with gay marriage now codified transgender rights would be the next great campaign for progressives and their allies in academia and the media. The agitations never end, even in the face of logic and natural law. Even the military is getting in on the act. How do you think such accommodations are going to work within the confines of a Navy vessel or a forward deployed fire support base?

This isn't a lifestyle, it's a mental disorder. Cross-dressers on the front line. Madness. Then again, our enemies will be laughing so hard they won't be able to fight so maybe it will all work out.

Father son talk 101:

Son: Dad I'm gay

Father: I understand son, and I'm here for you and love you very much.

Son: Dad I want to be a girl

Father: What?

Son: I'm transgender

Father: get away from me you weirdo. What the hell is wrong with you.

It's good to see progress. For people like you, 10 years ago the father/son conversation for gay would mimic the one you have for transgender.

Ah, yes. The old "you're standing in the way of progress" line. Pretty soon we'll be reading comparisons between Martin Luther King and RuPaul.

no worries. I have no doubt you would still hate your gay son

Not as much I expect as you would hate any child of yours who happened to profess to being Christian.

All my children are straight and grown with families of their own so your absurd little analogy is immaterial.

 

[Henry Ford]

I said several weeks ago that with gay marriage now codified transgender rights would be the next great campaign for progressives and their allies in academia and the media. The agitations never end, even in the face of logic and natural law. Even the military is getting in on the act. How do you think such accommodations are going to work within the confines of a Navy vessel or a forward deployed fire support base?

This isn't a lifestyle, it's a mental disorder. Cross-dressers on the front line. Madness. Then again, our enemies will be laughing so hard they won't be able to fight so maybe it will all work out.

Father son talk 101:

Son: Dad I'm gay

Father: I understand son, and I'm here for you and love you very much.

Son: Dad I want to be a girl

Father: What?

Son: I'm transgender

Father: get away from me you weirdo. What the hell is wrong with you.

It's good to see progress. For people like you, 10 years ago the father/son conversation for gay would mimic the one you have for transgender.

Ah, yes. The old "you're standing in the way of progress" line. Pretty soon we'll be reading comparisons between Martin Luther King and RuPaul.

no worries. I have no doubt you would still hate your gay son

Not as much I expect as you would hate any child of yours who happened to profess to being Christian.

All my children are straight and grown with families of their own so your absurd little analogy is immaterial.

To be fair, Caitlyn Jenner was grown with a family of her own. You never know how things will go in the future.

 

[[icon]]

fe·male
ˈfēˌmāl/
adjective

1. 1.
   of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes.
   "a herd of female deer"
   noun
   

1. 1.
   a female person, animal, or plant.
   

 

[TPW]

I said several weeks ago that with gay marriage now codified transgender rights would be the next great campaign for progressives and their allies in academia and the media. The agitations never end, even in the face of logic and natural law. Even the military is getting in on the act. How do you think such accommodations are going to work within the confines of a Navy vessel or a forward deployed fire support base?

This isn't a lifestyle, it's a mental disorder. Cross-dressers on the front line. Madness. Then again, our enemies will be laughing so hard they won't be able to fight so maybe it will all work out.

Father son talk 101:

Son: Dad I'm gay

Father: I understand son, and I'm here for you and love you very much.

Son: Dad I want to be a girl

Father: What?

Son: I'm transgender

Father: get away from me you weirdo. What the hell is wrong with you.

It's good to see progress. For people like you, 10 years ago the father/son conversation for gay would mimic the one you have for transgender.

Ah, yes. The old "you're standing in the way of progress" line. Pretty soon we'll be reading comparisons between Martin Luther King and RuPaul.

no worries. I have no doubt you would still hate your gay son

Not as much I expect as you would hate any child of yours who happened to profess to being Christian.

All my children are straight and grown with families of their own so your absurd little analogy is immaterial.

To be fair, Caitlyn Jenner was grown with a family of her own. You never know how things will go in the future.

Please keep your homoerotic fantasies to yourself.

 

[Henry Ford]

Man, those women who can't have kids are going to be upset to learn about not being allowed to use the restroom anymore icon.

 

[Hang 10]

So if I'm understanding this correctly, the school could easily come under a title IX situation no matter what it decides. If they let this student into the girls locker room, the other girls (their parents) could file a suit. If they don't allow it, this student (her parents) could file suit.

While I kinda agree with Tim's idea of a gender neutral facility, this student didn't want that - and I can kinda agree - instead of being told you'll either use the locker room of the gender you are (which is still male) or of the sex you identify with (which is female), you're going to get this third option and not be part of either group.

Also, to me, for some reason when I was picturing Tim's idea in my head of a gender neutral facility just for her, the first image that popped in my head was of the plywood bathroom built for Aibileen in the movie The Help.

Yeah, I think the appropriate consideration in this whole case is "things are kind of f'd up and in flux for people right now."I get that a group of teenage girls are uncomfortable.

I also get that this teenager who identifies as female - and we have no reason to disbelieve this, or to believe that this is some boy trying to catch a peek at the girls - is also uncomfortable.

The question mark here is how to deal with that discomfort level. Who is being actually harmed as opposed to being just made to feel uncomfortable, and what is the reasonable path through. I don't think there's an easy answer here - the easy one is the neutral bathroom, but there's certainly a level of discriminatory effect that's possible from that, and it sounds like this kid feels that discriminatory effect. Tough call on this.

It's actually pretty easy call and was said on the first page. Use the facilities based on physical gender. No need to needlessly complicate things.

 

[Henry Ford]

Please keep your homoerotic fantasies to yourself.

Wouldn't that make them autoerotic?

 

[Henry Ford]

So if I'm understanding this correctly, the school could easily come under a title IX situation no matter what it decides. If they let this student into the girls locker room, the other girls (their parents) could file a suit. If they don't allow it, this student (her parents) could file suit.

While I kinda agree with Tim's idea of a gender neutral facility, this student didn't want that - and I can kinda agree - instead of being told you'll either use the locker room of the gender you are (which is still male) or of the sex you identify with (which is female), you're going to get this third option and not be part of either group.

Also, to me, for some reason when I was picturing Tim's idea in my head of a gender neutral facility just for her, the first image that popped in my head was of the plywood bathroom built for Aibileen in the movie The Help.

Yeah, I think the appropriate consideration in this whole case is "things are kind of f'd up and in flux for people right now."I get that a group of teenage girls are uncomfortable.

I also get that this teenager who identifies as female - and we have no reason to disbelieve this, or to believe that this is some boy trying to catch a peek at the girls - is also uncomfortable.

The question mark here is how to deal with that discomfort level. Who is being actually harmed as opposed to being just made to feel uncomfortable, and what is the reasonable path through. I don't think there's an easy answer here - the easy one is the neutral bathroom, but there's certainly a level of discriminatory effect that's possible from that, and it sounds like this kid feels that discriminatory effect. Tough call on this.

It's actually pretty easy call and was said on the first page. Use the facilities based on physical gender. No need to needlessly complicate things.

Yeah, I read that. If it's not clear, I think that's a lazy analysis and I disagree with its use to solve complex issues.

 

[sublimeone]

Just to clarify this point, ICON- let's say this transgender has the full operation, and now no longer has a penis and is outwardly a female. If the other girls still reject being in the same locker room with her, they have no right to do so in your opinion? They're forced in that situation to accept her?

I don't think my point needs a whole lot of clarification. I'm merely stating that if you were born with a penis, and still are equipped with said penis, then you have no ####### business in a women's locker room or bathroom.

Beyond that, there can be discussion.

But that's a pretty simple and reasonable qualfier....

Does Caitlyn Jenner get to use the women's bathroom? I can actually answer that. The answer is yes. Are you okay with that?

Does Caitlyn Jenner get to use the women's locker room at her local fitness center? Is it OK if she gets naked and her penis is exposed to the female patrons in the locker room?

 

[Fennis]

I said several weeks ago that with gay marriage now codified transgender rights would be the next great campaign for progressives and their allies in academia and the media. The agitations never end, even in the face of logic and natural law. Even the military is getting in on the act. How do you think such accommodations are going to work within the confines of a Navy vessel or a forward deployed fire support base?

This isn't a lifestyle, it's a mental disorder. Cross-dressers on the front line. Madness. Then again, our enemies will be laughing so hard they won't be able to fight so maybe it will all work out.

Father son talk 101:

Son: Dad I'm gay

Father: I understand son, and I'm here for you and love you very much.

Son: Dad I want to be a girl

Father: What?

Son: I'm transgender

Father: get away from me you weirdo. What the hell is wrong with you.

It's good to see progress. For people like you, 10 years ago the father/son conversation for gay would mimic the one you have for transgender.

Ah, yes. The old "you're standing in the way of progress" line. Pretty soon we'll be reading comparisons between Martin Luther King and RuPaul.

no worries. I have no doubt you would still hate your gay son

Not as much I expect as you would hate any child of yours who happened to profess to being Christian.

All my children are straight and grown with families of their own so your absurd little analogy is immaterial.

To be fair, Caitlyn Jenner was grown with a family of her own. You never know how things will go in the future.

plus I want to point out I don't hate Christians. Heck, at times I frequently attend church. I only hate social conservatives who use the government to push their version of morals on everyone else.

 

[sublimeone]

Man, those women who can't have kids are going to be upset to learn about not being allowed to use the restroom anymore icon.

you might want to re-read that definition Henry

 

[Fennis]

Please keep your homoerotic fantasies to yourself

I vote that you please share them, especially yours TPW

 

[Henry Ford]

Just to clarify this point, ICON- let's say this transgender has the full operation, and now no longer has a penis and is outwardly a female. If the other girls still reject being in the same locker room with her, they have no right to do so in your opinion? They're forced in that situation to accept her?

I don't think my point needs a whole lot of clarification. I'm merely stating that if you were born with a penis, and still are equipped with said penis, then you have no ####### business in a women's locker room or bathroom.

Beyond that, there can be discussion.

But that's a pretty simple and reasonable qualfier....

Does Caitlyn Jenner get to use the women's bathroom? I can actually answer that. The answer is yes. Are you okay with that?

Does Caitlyn Jenner get to use the women's locker room at her local fitness center? Is it OK if she gets naked and her penis is exposed to the female patrons in the locker room?

I would imagine the answer to the first question is yes, and to the extent it happens while changing clothes, the answer should definitely be yes. Now, if she drops her pants to the ground and chases someone around jamming it in her face and screaming "lick it!" that wouldn't be okay. But it wouldn't be okay with lady parts, either.

 

[Sinn Fein]

So now girls are afraid of penises?

I can understand being a bit wary of being raped, or sexually assaulted, but seeing a penis?

Are they afraid a person with a penis will see them naked? How is that different than a person without a penis seeing them naked? You are naked in front of other people in either situation....

 

[TPW]

Please keep your homoerotic fantasies to yourself.

Wouldn't that make them autoerotic?

No idea. I'll leave it to the resident deviants to sort things out.

 

[tonydead]

So if I'm understanding this correctly, the school could easily come under a title IX situation no matter what it decides. If they let this student into the girls locker room, the other girls (their parents) could file a suit. If they don't allow it, this student (her parents) could file suit.

While I kinda agree with Tim's idea of a gender neutral facility, this student didn't want that - and I can kinda agree - instead of being told you'll either use the locker room of the gender you are (which is still male) or of the sex you identify with (which is female), you're going to get this third option and not be part of either group.

Also, to me, for some reason when I was picturing Tim's idea in my head of a gender neutral facility just for her, the first image that popped in my head was of the plywood bathroom built for Aibileen in the movie The Help.

Yeah, I think the appropriate consideration in this whole case is "things are kind of f'd up and in flux for people right now."I get that a group of teenage girls are uncomfortable.

I also get that this teenager who identifies as female - and we have no reason to disbelieve this, or to believe that this is some boy trying to catch a peek at the girls - is also uncomfortable.

The question mark here is how to deal with that discomfort level. Who is being actually harmed as opposed to being just made to feel uncomfortable, and what is the reasonable path through. I don't think there's an easy answer here - the easy one is the neutral bathroom, but there's certainly a level of discriminatory effect that's possible from that, and it sounds like this kid feels that discriminatory effect. Tough call on this.

It's actually pretty easy call and was said on the first page. Use the facilities based on physical gender. No need to needlessly complicate things.

Yeah, I read that. If it's not clear, I think that's a lazy analysis and I disagree with its use to solve complex issues.

I don't see anything that makes it complex at all.

Still not sure why issues like this aren't treated as purely legal. If you've identified as a female your whole life great; get with your doctor in front of a judge and get your gender changed. Whatever gender is shown on your drivers licence determines what bathroom you use. I don't see why this is so difficult for people.

 

[Henry Ford]

Man, those women who can't have kids are going to be upset to learn about not being allowed to use the restroom anymore icon.

you might want to re-read that definition Henry

No, I'm good. It's an awful web dictionary definition.

"of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes."

You're defining sex by explaining "all the people who fit into the category of people who are part of the category of people who can bear offspring or produce eggs."

 

[matttyl]

So if I'm understanding this correctly, the school could easily come under a title IX situation no matter what it decides. If they let this student into the girls locker room, the other girls (their parents) could file a suit. If they don't allow it, this student (her parents) could file suit.

While I kinda agree with Tim's idea of a gender neutral facility, this student didn't want that - and I can kinda agree - instead of being told you'll either use the locker room of the gender you are (which is still male) or of the sex you identify with (which is female), you're going to get this third option and not be part of either group.

Also, to me, for some reason when I was picturing Tim's idea in my head of a gender neutral facility just for her, the first image that popped in my head was of the plywood bathroom built for Aibileen in the movie The Help.

Maybe the 'gender-neutral' facility would be required until the student is physically changed. That way you can potentially ease some of the distress of the students towards the changing student, by their realizing that they are really in this process, not just some guy who wants to try and see if he can change in the girls room.

But, there's no reason the student ever has to be physically changed. You don't have to have your penis cut off to be considered to be living as a woman, and to be allowed all the privileges that come along with that. Similarly, if a boy has a freak accident and has his penis cut off, he doesn't suddenly get to shower with the girls. This is just not a simple "If x, than y" situation. What makes it so rough to navigate for all involved.

While I agree with most of what you said, I don't think just because someone is considered to be "living as a woman" they should automatically be allowed all the privileges that come along with that. This case is just one example.

Also, people keep bringing up the "cut off penis" thing. Does the person suddenly start identifying as a woman when that happens? And if not, why is always brought up in these cases?

 

[Henry Ford]

So if I'm understanding this correctly, the school could easily come under a title IX situation no matter what it decides. If they let this student into the girls locker room, the other girls (their parents) could file a suit. If they don't allow it, this student (her parents) could file suit.

While I kinda agree with Tim's idea of a gender neutral facility, this student didn't want that - and I can kinda agree - instead of being told you'll either use the locker room of the gender you are (which is still male) or of the sex you identify with (which is female), you're going to get this third option and not be part of either group.

Also, to me, for some reason when I was picturing Tim's idea in my head of a gender neutral facility just for her, the first image that popped in my head was of the plywood bathroom built for Aibileen in the movie The Help.

Yeah, I think the appropriate consideration in this whole case is "things are kind of f'd up and in flux for people right now."I get that a group of teenage girls are uncomfortable.

I also get that this teenager who identifies as female - and we have no reason to disbelieve this, or to believe that this is some boy trying to catch a peek at the girls - is also uncomfortable.

The question mark here is how to deal with that discomfort level. Who is being actually harmed as opposed to being just made to feel uncomfortable, and what is the reasonable path through. I don't think there's an easy answer here - the easy one is the neutral bathroom, but there's certainly a level of discriminatory effect that's possible from that, and it sounds like this kid feels that discriminatory effect. Tough call on this.

It's actually pretty easy call and was said on the first page. Use the facilities based on physical gender. No need to needlessly complicate things.

Yeah, I read that. If it's not clear, I think that's a lazy analysis and I disagree with its use to solve complex issues.

I don't see anything that makes it complex at all.

Still not sure why issues like this aren't treated as purely legal. If you've identified as a female your whole life great; get with your doctor in front of a judge and get your gender changed. Whatever gender is shown on your drivers licence determines what bathroom you use. I don't see why this is so difficult for people.

I know. That's what makes the analysis lazy.

EDIT: If it's not clear, I'm slightly tongue in cheek here. But I'm sure you're aware that getting with your doctor and getting in front of a judge and getting "your gender changed" isn't a simple issue.

 

[sublimeone]

So now girls are afraid of penises?

I can understand being a bit wary of being raped, or sexually assaulted, but seeing a penis?

Are they afraid a person with a penis will see them naked? How is that different than a person without a penis seeing them naked? You are naked in front of other people in either situation....

So are you advocating for co-ed everything?

 

[matttyl]

Just to clarify this point, ICON- let's say this transgender has the full operation, and now no longer has a penis and is outwardly a female. If the other girls still reject being in the same locker room with her, they have no right to do so in your opinion? They're forced in that situation to accept her?

I don't think my point needs a whole lot of clarification. I'm merely stating that if you were born with a penis, and still are equipped with said penis, then you have no ####### business in a women's locker room or bathroom.

Beyond that, there can be discussion.

But that's a pretty simple and reasonable qualfier....

Does Caitlyn Jenner get to use the women's bathroom? I can actually answer that. The answer is yes. Are you okay with that?

If she were somehow (and given her athletic background isn't not too far fetched) in some rec league basketball team of all ages - should she be allowed in the girls locker room? Let say she starting coaching some girls sport - maybe that's a better example. Would parents be unreasonable to not allow their daughter to be coached by her?

 

[tonydead]

So now girls are afraid of penises?

I can understand being a bit wary of being raped, or sexually assaulted, but seeing a penis?

Are they afraid a person with a penis will see them naked? How is that different than a person without a penis seeing them naked? You are naked in front of other people in either situation....

And I don't get the posts saying that feeling uncomfortable in a locker room is normal. It's the opposite of normal, for adults anyway. It's shameful that people were raised to be ashamed of nudity.

 

[Henry Ford]

So if I'm understanding this correctly, the school could easily come under a title IX situation no matter what it decides. If they let this student into the girls locker room, the other girls (their parents) could file a suit. If they don't allow it, this student (her parents) could file suit.

While I kinda agree with Tim's idea of a gender neutral facility, this student didn't want that - and I can kinda agree - instead of being told you'll either use the locker room of the gender you are (which is still male) or of the sex you identify with (which is female), you're going to get this third option and not be part of either group.

Also, to me, for some reason when I was picturing Tim's idea in my head of a gender neutral facility just for her, the first image that popped in my head was of the plywood bathroom built for Aibileen in the movie The Help.

Maybe the 'gender-neutral' facility would be required until the student is physically changed. That way you can potentially ease some of the distress of the students towards the changing student, by their realizing that they are really in this process, not just some guy who wants to try and see if he can change in the girls room.

But, there's no reason the student ever has to be physically changed. You don't have to have your penis cut off to be considered to be living as a woman, and to be allowed all the privileges that come along with that. Similarly, if a boy has a freak accident and has his penis cut off, he doesn't suddenly get to shower with the girls. This is just not a simple "If x, than y" situation. What makes it so rough to navigate for all involved.

While I agree with most of what you said, I don't think just because someone is considered to be "living as a woman" they should automatically be allowed all the privileges that come along with that. This case is just one example.

Also, people keep bringing up the "cut off penis" thing. Does the person suddenly start identifying as a woman when that happens? And if not, why is always brought up in these cases?

Exactly. The bolded is my point.

And I think your line of thinking on privileges and responsibilities is reasonable. I'm not sure I agree with you fully, or what you think would be reasonable accommodations, or unreasonable, but I think it's a big question and the "right" answers are uncertain at the moment.

The question of whether someone truly identifies as female has very little to do with whether or not there's a bit of flesh hanging between the legs, though, in these situations. I agree.

 

[Henry Ford]

Just to clarify this point, ICON- let's say this transgender has the full operation, and now no longer has a penis and is outwardly a female. If the other girls still reject being in the same locker room with her, they have no right to do so in your opinion? They're forced in that situation to accept her?

I don't think my point needs a whole lot of clarification. I'm merely stating that if you were born with a penis, and still are equipped with said penis, then you have no ####### business in a women's locker room or bathroom.

Beyond that, there can be discussion.

But that's a pretty simple and reasonable qualfier....

Does Caitlyn Jenner get to use the women's bathroom? I can actually answer that. The answer is yes. Are you okay with that?

If she were somehow (and given her athletic background isn't not too far fetched) in some rec league basketball team of all ages - should she be allowed in the girls locker room? Let say she starting coaching some girls sport - maybe that's a better example. Would parents be unreasonable to not allow their daughter to be coached by her?

In my opinion? Yes. Parents would be ridiculous to not allow their daughters to be coached by an Olympic gold medalist because of a gender change.

 

[sublimeone]

So if I'm understanding this correctly, the school could easily come under a title IX situation no matter what it decides. If they let this student into the girls locker room, the other girls (their parents) could file a suit. If they don't allow it, this student (her parents) could file suit.

While I kinda agree with Tim's idea of a gender neutral facility, this student didn't want that - and I can kinda agree - instead of being told you'll either use the locker room of the gender you are (which is still male) or of the sex you identify with (which is female), you're going to get this third option and not be part of either group.

Also, to me, for some reason when I was picturing Tim's idea in my head of a gender neutral facility just for her, the first image that popped in my head was of the plywood bathroom built for Aibileen in the movie The Help.

Maybe the 'gender-neutral' facility would be required until the student is physically changed. That way you can potentially ease some of the distress of the students towards the changing student, by their realizing that they are really in this process, not just some guy who wants to try and see if he can change in the girls room.

But, there's no reason the student ever has to be physically changed. You don't have to have your penis cut off to be considered to be living as a woman, and to be allowed all the privileges that come along with that. Similarly, if a boy has a freak accident and has his penis cut off, he doesn't suddenly get to shower with the girls. This is just not a simple "If x, than y" situation. What makes it so rough to navigate for all involved.

While I agree with most of what you said, I don't think just because someone is considered to be "living as a woman" they should automatically be allowed all the privileges that come along with that. This case is just one example.

Also, people keep bringing up the "cut off penis" thing. Does the person suddenly start identifying as a woman when that happens? And if not, why is always brought up in these cases?

Exactly. The bolded is my point.

And I think your line of thinking on privileges and responsibilities is reasonable. I'm not sure I agree with you fully, or what you think would be reasonable accommodations, or unreasonable, but I think it's a big question and the "right" answers are uncertain at the moment.

The question of whether someone truly identifies as female has very little to do with whether or not there's a bit of flesh hanging between the legs, though, in these situations. I agree.

unf****** real that you guys are serious with this.

 

[Henry Ford]

Man, those women who can't have kids are going to be upset to learn about not being allowed to use the restroom anymore icon.

you might want to re-read that definition Henry

No, I'm good. It's an awful web dictionary definition.

"of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes."

You're defining sex by explaining "all the people who fit into the category of people who are part of the category of people who can bear offspring or produce eggs."

So if I'm understanding this correctly, the school could easily come under a title IX situation no matter what it decides. If they let this student into the girls locker room, the other girls (their parents) could file a suit. If they don't allow it, this student (her parents) could file suit.

While I kinda agree with Tim's idea of a gender neutral facility, this student didn't want that - and I can kinda agree - instead of being told you'll either use the locker room of the gender you are (which is still male) or of the sex you identify with (which is female), you're going to get this third option and not be part of either group.

Also, to me, for some reason when I was picturing Tim's idea in my head of a gender neutral facility just for her, the first image that popped in my head was of the plywood bathroom built for Aibileen in the movie The Help.

Maybe the 'gender-neutral' facility would be required until the student is physically changed. That way you can potentially ease some of the distress of the students towards the changing student, by their realizing that they are really in this process, not just some guy who wants to try and see if he can change in the girls room.

But, there's no reason the student ever has to be physically changed. You don't have to have your penis cut off to be considered to be living as a woman, and to be allowed all the privileges that come along with that. Similarly, if a boy has a freak accident and has his penis cut off, he doesn't suddenly get to shower with the girls. This is just not a simple "If x, than y" situation. What makes it so rough to navigate for all involved.

While I agree with most of what you said, I don't think just because someone is considered to be "living as a woman" they should automatically be allowed all the privileges that come along with that. This case is just one example.

Also, people keep bringing up the "cut off penis" thing. Does the person suddenly start identifying as a woman when that happens? And if not, why is always brought up in these cases?

Exactly. The bolded is my point.

And I think your line of thinking on privileges and responsibilities is reasonable. I'm not sure I agree with you fully, or what you think would be reasonable accommodations, or unreasonable, but I think it's a big question and the "right" answers are uncertain at the moment.

The question of whether someone truly identifies as female has very little to do with whether or not there's a bit of flesh hanging between the legs, though, in these situations. I agree.

unf****** real that you guys are serious with this.

Trust me, the feeling is doubly strong from me to you.

 

[Emerson Biggens]

Just to clarify this point, ICON- let's say this transgender has the full operation, and now no longer has a penis and is outwardly a female. If the other girls still reject being in the same locker room with her, they have no right to do so in your opinion? They're forced in that situation to accept her?

I don't think my point needs a whole lot of clarification. I'm merely stating that if you were born with a penis, and still are equipped with said penis, then you have no ####### business in a women's locker room or bathroom.

Beyond that, there can be discussion.

But that's a pretty simple and reasonable qualfier....

Does Caitlyn Jenner get to use the women's bathroom? I can actually answer that. The answer is yes. Are you okay with that?

Does Caitlyn Jenner get to use the women's locker room at her local fitness center? Is it OK if she gets naked and her penis is exposed to the female patrons in the locker room?

I would imagine the answer to the first question is yes, and to the extent it happens while changing clothes, the answer should definitely be yes. .

Let's say Caitlyn is like most old men in the gym and walks around nude, why would real women at a fitness center have to be exposed to Caitlyn's penis? What if their kid is in there with them, which happens all the time?

Bull ####. No way a real biological woman would be okay with that.

 

[Henry Ford]

Just to clarify this point, ICON- let's say this transgender has the full operation, and now no longer has a penis and is outwardly a female. If the other girls still reject being in the same locker room with her, they have no right to do so in your opinion? They're forced in that situation to accept her?

I don't think my point needs a whole lot of clarification. I'm merely stating that if you were born with a penis, and still are equipped with said penis, then you have no ####### business in a women's locker room or bathroom.

Beyond that, there can be discussion.

But that's a pretty simple and reasonable qualfier....

Does Caitlyn Jenner get to use the women's bathroom? I can actually answer that. The answer is yes. Are you okay with that?

Does Caitlyn Jenner get to use the women's locker room at her local fitness center? Is it OK if she gets naked and her penis is exposed to the female patrons in the locker room?

I would imagine the answer to the first question is yes, and to the extent it happens while changing clothes, the answer should definitely be yes. .

Let's say Caitlyn is like most old men in the gym and walks around nude, why would real women at a fitness center have to be exposed to Caitlyn's penis? What if their kid is in there with them, which happens all the time?

Bull ####. No way a real biological woman would be okay with that.

Incidentally, if it's confusing, the bolded is the sticking point here.

Where are hermaphrodites allowed to shower in your world? Just wondering.

 

[sublimeone]

Man, those women who can't have kids are going to be upset to learn about not being allowed to use the restroom anymore icon.

you might want to re-read that definition Henry

No, I'm good. It's an awful web dictionary definition.

"of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes."

You're defining sex by explaining "all the people who fit into the category of people who are part of the category of people who can bear offspring or produce eggs."

So if I'm understanding this correctly, the school could easily come under a title IX situation no matter what it decides. If they let this student into the girls locker room, the other girls (their parents) could file a suit. If they don't allow it, this student (her parents) could file suit.

While I kinda agree with Tim's idea of a gender neutral facility, this student didn't want that - and I can kinda agree - instead of being told you'll either use the locker room of the gender you are (which is still male) or of the sex you identify with (which is female), you're going to get this third option and not be part of either group.

Also, to me, for some reason when I was picturing Tim's idea in my head of a gender neutral facility just for her, the first image that popped in my head was of the plywood bathroom built for Aibileen in the movie The Help.

Maybe the 'gender-neutral' facility would be required until the student is physically changed. That way you can potentially ease some of the distress of the students towards the changing student, by their realizing that they are really in this process, not just some guy who wants to try and see if he can change in the girls room.

But, there's no reason the student ever has to be physically changed. You don't have to have your penis cut off to be considered to be living as a woman, and to be allowed all the privileges that come along with that. Similarly, if a boy has a freak accident and has his penis cut off, he doesn't suddenly get to shower with the girls. This is just not a simple "If x, than y" situation. What makes it so rough to navigate for all involved.

While I agree with most of what you said, I don't think just because someone is considered to be "living as a woman" they should automatically be allowed all the privileges that come along with that. This case is just one example.

Also, people keep bringing up the "cut off penis" thing. Does the person suddenly start identifying as a woman when that happens? And if not, why is always brought up in these cases?

Exactly. The bolded is my point.

And I think your line of thinking on privileges and responsibilities is reasonable. I'm not sure I agree with you fully, or what you think would be reasonable accommodations, or unreasonable, but I think it's a big question and the "right" answers are uncertain at the moment.

The question of whether someone truly identifies as female has very little to do with whether or not there's a bit of flesh hanging between the legs, though, in these situations. I agree.

unf****** real that you guys are serious with this.

Trust me, the feeling is doubly strong from me to you.

You underestimate my feeling. It's easily triple from me to you.

eta: more likely quadruple

 

[Koya]

Yes, and they're getting wildly criticized because some boy that thinks he's a girl wants to use their bathroom.

tim says "give 'em what they want." Those of us that actually studied public policy and the grievance factory that is the trans community knew this was coming.

There are legit points and counter points to this story and discussion. There are a range of understandable opinions and fears and human emotion / reaction.

However, the tone of your response is exactly why whatever legitimate angle you may have brought to the discussion is rendered moot.

The dismissive, uncaring and utterly unsympathetic nature of your tone is exactly why it just seems that all those who share your "platform" are just callous and uncaring for anyone who doesn't seem to live according to your way, your rules, your morality and your opinion of what someone else should feel in terms of sexual identity or anything else.

So, when I make my snarky comments in other threads about how it really seems that you and others are just not caring people who are callous toward so many, just remember this. When I or others wonder if the right as a whole has become just as callous and uncaring in the same manner, this is why. Trump and Huckabee and Scottie boy, good old Carson and I could continue down the line.

Also remember when said snarky comment dismisses whatever point you are trying to make, because any legitimacy you would have had is completely undercut by the approach and the messenger.

 

[fantasycurse42]

If they let this kid use the girl's locker room, I assume a lot of other boys will be claiming to be transgender.

 

[matttyl]

The question of whether someone truly identifies as female has very little to do with whether or not there's a bit of flesh hanging between the legs, though, in these situations. I agree.

I think we're talking past each other....you're talking about identifying, others are talking about biology.

Should what they identify as trump what they biologically or physically are? This individual has apparently been identifying as a woman for about 3-4 years (since age 13, don't know their current age). From that day forward, not identifying as a female, do they get all the "rights and privileges" biological/physical females, such as the girls locker room? If, not, when does it happen?

What if this student changes their mind and no longer wants to identify as female, but also not as male? What then?

 

[tonydead]

I know. That's what makes the analysis lazy.

EDIT: If it's not clear, I'm slightly tongue in cheek here. But I'm sure you're aware that getting with your doctor and getting in front of a judge and getting "your gender changed" isn't a simple issue.

Right. The process may be difficult, but, the solution isn't.

 

[Henry Ford]

I know. That's what makes the analysis lazy.

EDIT: If it's not clear, I'm slightly tongue in cheek here. But I'm sure you're aware that getting with your doctor and getting in front of a judge and getting "your gender changed" isn't a simple issue.

Right. The process may be difficult, but, the solution isn't.

The process is difficult because the issue is difficult. How to define things, whether one can even find a doctor who will help, how to pay for the things society is asking for to be allowed to use the "right" bathroom, etc.

 

[Koya]

Not much sure it's possible here, but this does bring up legitimate issues of freedom. Yes, we should all be allowed to identify with the sexuality we feel. I guess, since it's never much been an issue for me so no idea how it actually feels.

That said, the right of the individual should not trump the rights of many - and even if indeed we as a society need to adjust and evolve on this issue (I can 100% understand the unease here) as we have with many others such as race, homosexuality etc, this is not just black and white and may need some time and staged approach?

Obviously a lot would seem to depend on where the community is and general local mores, along with how the person is received (ie some stories that a transgender girl wins homecoming or something) and how the person / family deals with the issue (ie not just hey I'm here it's me ####### deal with it or else doesn't really help things )

 

[tonydead]

Let's say Caitlyn is like most old men in the gym and walks around nude, why would real women at a fitness center have to be exposed to Caitlyn's penis? What if their kid is in there with them, which happens all the time?

Bull ####. No way a real biological woman would be okay with that.

What's so scary about an old man's penis? Does looking at one make you go blind, turn you into a pillar of salt or something?

 

[Henry Ford]

The question of whether someone truly identifies as female has very little to do with whether or not there's a bit of flesh hanging between the legs, though, in these situations. I agree.

I think we're talking past each other....you're talking about identifying, others are talking about biology.

Should what they identify as trump what they biologically or physically are? This individual has apparently been identifying as a woman for about 3-4 years (since age 13, don't know their current age). From that day forward, not identifying as a female, do they get all the "rights and privileges" biological/physical females, such as the girls locker room? If, not, when does it happen?

What if this student changes their mind and no longer wants to identify as female, but also not as male? What then?

That's what I mean by complex issues. I don't have an easy answer for that. I don't think anyone does. Exciting times.

 

[Henry Ford]

Let's say Caitlyn is like most old men in the gym and walks around nude, why would real women at a fitness center have to be exposed to Caitlyn's penis? What if their kid is in there with them, which happens all the time?

Bull ####. No way a real biological woman would be okay with that.

What's so scary about an old man's penis? Does looking at one make you go blind, turn you into a pillar of salt or something?

And why can't the women in the locker room do the same thing I do? Shame the old man into covering up.

"Bob, Jesus Christ, put a towel on. You look like a skeleton with a dehydrated baby carrot stapled to the pelvis."

 

[tonydead]

I know. That's what makes the analysis lazy.

EDIT: If it's not clear, I'm slightly tongue in cheek here. But I'm sure you're aware that getting with your doctor and getting in front of a judge and getting "your gender changed" isn't a simple issue.

Right. The process may be difficult, but, the solution isn't.

The process is difficult because the issue is difficult. How to define things, whether one can even find a doctor who will help, how to pay for the things society is asking for to be allowed to use the "right" bathroom, etc.

How to define things? - That's why there are doctors and judges.

How to pay for it? - The same way you pay for other mental and physical issues you may have.

 

[McGarnicle]

Let's say Caitlyn is like most old men in the gym and walks around nude, why would real women at a fitness center have to be exposed to Caitlyn's penis? What if their kid is in there with them, which happens all the time?

Bull ####. No way a real biological woman would be okay with that.

What's so scary about an old man's penis? Does looking at one make you go blind, turn you into a pillar of salt or something?

Dibs on this for my new sig.

 

[Emerson Biggens]

Just to clarify this point, ICON- let's say this transgender has the full operation, and now no longer has a penis and is outwardly a female. If the other girls still reject being in the same locker room with her, they have no right to do so in your opinion? They're forced in that situation to accept her?

I don't think my point needs a whole lot of clarification. I'm merely stating that if you were born with a penis, and still are equipped with said penis, then you have no ####### business in a women's locker room or bathroom.

Beyond that, there can be discussion.

But that's a pretty simple and reasonable qualfier....

Does Caitlyn Jenner get to use the women's bathroom? I can actually answer that. The answer is yes. Are you okay with that?

Does Caitlyn Jenner get to use the women's locker room at her local fitness center? Is it OK if she gets naked and her penis is exposed to the female patrons in the locker room?

I would imagine the answer to the first question is yes, and to the extent it happens while changing clothes, the answer should definitely be yes. .

Let's say Caitlyn is like most old men in the gym and walks around nude, why would real women at a fitness center have to be exposed to Caitlyn's penis? What if their kid is in there with them, which happens all the time?Bull ####. No way a real biological woman would be okay with that.

Incidentally, if it's confusing, the bolded is the sticking point here.

Where are hermaphrodites allowed to shower in your world? Just wondering.

In the neutral one I guess, or the men's. It reminds me of the Bangkok strip club and the stripper Stu hooked up with walking around hanging out everywhere

 

[Cold Dead Hands]

What if the bit of dangling flesh between the legs is just an oversized labia?

Go on.

 

[Henry Ford]

I know. That's what makes the analysis lazy.

EDIT: If it's not clear, I'm slightly tongue in cheek here. But I'm sure you're aware that getting with your doctor and getting in front of a judge and getting "your gender changed" isn't a simple issue.

Right. The process may be difficult, but, the solution isn't.

The process is difficult because the issue is difficult. How to define things, whether one can even find a doctor who will help, how to pay for the things society is asking for to be allowed to use the "right" bathroom, etc.

How to define things? - That's why there are doctors and judges.

How to pay for it? - The same way you pay for other mental and physical issues you may have.

That's well and good if

1. You don't live in ########, Alabama, and there's a doctor who will go to bat for you on this issue; and

2. You have health insurance that will simultaneously pay for legal appearances by a doctor or are wealthy.

What you're describing is a system where urban wealth dictates the ability to go to the bathroom. That's a fairly complicated system. Do I think it would be easier in 20 years? Absolutely. But getting to that point will take scenarios like this one.

EDIT: also, I don't mean this about any of the judges I practice in front of, obviously, but I've heard that some judges probably would be difficult to get in front of on an issue like this.