Huge catch by Moss (1 Viewer)

[BigTex]

The thing I noticed about that catch is that the Raiders still lost. Common theme with Moss.

R. Moss - 5/130/1

Oakland - 0-1-0

Get used to it Raiders fans.

Madden and Michaels made me want to punch the screen when they both talked about how they don't understand "addition by subtraction".

Sooooooooooooo................Moss is responsible for Oakland's loss? Is that what your'e saying?

Nooooooooooooo................But Moss' gaudy stats certainly didn't guarantee an Oakland win, now did they?

What does "guarantee" an Oakland win? How about Philly, T.O did his job in the Super Bowl. Last year everyone had Philly to win it all, some even "guaranteed" it! Maybe Philly needs to get use to it. After all, all they needed was a go to WR and they are "guaranteed" a Super Bowl victory, right?

How about Indi, P. Manning didn't do enough last year to "guarantee" a trip to the SB?

Nothing is "guaranteed", but to link Moss to a loss after a 5/130/1 performance is a reach and not well thought out.

 

[jurb26]

As good as that catch was the tackle, or should I say lunge, by Rodney Harrison was :X . It was clear he was just trying to lay Moss out when he should have been wrapping him up. Without that Moss' night would have seemed pretty pedestrian.

Now it's Moss's fault he wasn't tackled properly. He showed phenomenal concentration catching that ball, and then accelerated past two defenders to score that touchdown, and you guys want to take the play away from him.

Yeah tackling Moss in the open field is one of the easiest things to do in the NFL, haven't you heard.

 

[Funkley]

Please post his stats from his Super Bowl game next. If he's so unwordly good he should have been in a few right?

Are you seriously trying to imply that Moss is not unworldly good?

As a fantasy football player he's dominant. As an NFL player, and as the supposed 'leader' of the team you are hoping will lead your team to glory he's really good at getting his. There's a reason the Vikings wanted this guy out of their locker room and there's a reason only the Raiders wanted him.

Point taken.Maybe anyone expecting him to be a leader is just expecting too much. As a player and a FF player he is unworldly good. OK, he has a chip on his shoulder and personally I think the guy is an ###.

An ### can help you win games and it was not Moss fault the Raiders lost last night. He did his job.

And maybe we expect too much. Maybe the only superstars that can lead their team to wins are QB's but for someone who is now talked about as the greatest offensive player ever it hasn't translated to even very many division titles. Hard for me to call Moss 'the best ever' when Favre consistently owned them. And not all of those Viking teams had terrible defenses. Outside of FF circles I can't help but think he's overrated.

 

[culdeus]

As good as that catch was the tackle, or should I say lunge, by Rodney Harrison was :X . It was clear he was just trying to lay Moss out when he should have been wrapping him up. Without that Moss' night would have seemed pretty pedestrian.

Now it's Moss's fault he wasn't tackled properly. He showed phenomenal concentration catching that ball, and then accelerated past two defenders to score that touchdown, and you guys want to take the play away from him.

Yeah tackling Moss in the open field is one of the easiest things to do in the NFL, haven't you heard.

It's alot easier if you aren't trying to meet him with both feet off the ground.

 

[jurb26]

It's alot easier if you aren't trying to meet him with both feet off the ground.

I agree, Harrison was going for the kill shot but.... thats what Harrison ALWAYS does.

 

[Funkley]

As good as that catch was the tackle, or should I say lunge, by Rodney Harrison was  :X .  It was clear he was just trying to lay Moss out when he should have been wrapping him up.    Without that Moss' night would have seemed pretty pedestrian.

Now it's Moss's fault he wasn't tackled properly. He showed phenomenal concentration catching that ball, and then accelerated past two defenders to score that touchdown, and you guys want to take the play away from him.

Yeah tackling Moss in the open field is one of the easiest things to do in the NFL, haven't you heard.

Ask Harrison if he thought he should have made that play. When a guy is on the sidelines he sorta limited in his options considering that Harrison is an All Pro safety.

 

[BlueOnion]

Harrison hat to take that angle on Moss because Moss is a lot faster. However, because Harrison took the correct angle (for a man his speed) to cut off Moss, it put him out of position should Moss choose to cut it back.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

The thing I noticed about that catch is that the Raiders still lost. Common theme with Moss.

R. Moss - 5/130/1

Oakland - 0-1-0

Get used to it Raiders fans.

Madden and Michaels made me want to punch the screen when they both talked about how they don't understand "addition by subtraction".

Sooooooooooooo................Moss is responsible for Oakland's loss? Is that what your'e saying?

Nooooooooooooo................But Moss' gaudy stats certainly didn't guarantee an Oakland win, now did they?

What does "guarantee" an Oakland win? How about Philly, T.O did his job in the Super Bowl. Last year everyone had Philly to win it all, some even "guaranteed" it! Maybe Philly needs to get use to it. After all, all they needed was a go to WR and they are "guaranteed" a Super Bowl victory, right?

How about Indi, P. Manning didn't do enough last year to "guarantee" a trip to the SB?

Nothing is "guaranteed", but to link Moss to a loss after a 5/130/1 performance is a reach and not well thought out.

Except that we've seen it for seven years now.I'm not denying that Moss is a phenominal talent. I'm just saying that his phenominal talent doesn't always translate into wins for his team.

 

[zoonation]

I know it waas the Pats, and I know it was opening week, but I thought Collins looked very mediocre. Moss looked great considering everything, but he did drop a couple of balls.If this game showed us anything, I think it is that Moss is going to put up big numbers this year if he continues to get a lot of targets like he did last night.Note to Lamont Jordan: welcome to the wonderful world of getting pounded as a starting running back. Only 15 more games to go.

 

[j3r3m3y]

And maybe we expect too much. Maybe the only superstars that can lead their team to wins are QB's but for someone who is now talked about as the greatest offensive player ever it hasn't translated to even very many division titles. Hard for me to call Moss 'the best ever' when Favre consistently owned them. And not all of those Viking teams had terrible defenses. Outside of FF circles I can't help but think he's overrated.

I have never heard him called the best offensive player ever. I have heard him called the best WR ever, and while I don't yet support that position I could in time if he continues to produce at this level for many years.

I don't ever remember a WR getting credit for leading a team to a SB victory. Even during the 80's it was Joe that got the credit, with a respectful nod to Jerry.

I think anyone expecting a single WR to lead a team to victory single handedly is holding him to an unrealistic standard.

But for what he is, a WR, he gets the job done and thats all he can really do. He caught for over 100, caught a TD and warranted enough attention that other guys were able to get open. What more do you expect from a WR? He touches the ball 5-10 times a game, his impact needs to be supported by the rest of the team or it goes for nothing.

 

[Funkley]

And maybe we expect too much. Maybe the only superstars that can lead their team to wins are QB's but for someone who is now talked about as the greatest offensive player ever it hasn't translated to even very many division titles. Hard for me to call Moss 'the best ever' when Favre consistently owned them. And not all of those Viking teams had terrible defenses. Outside of FF circles I can't help but think he's overrated.

I have never heard him called the best offensive player ever. I have heard him called the best WR ever, and while I don't yet support that position I could in time if he continues to produce at this level for many years.

I don't ever remember a WR getting credit for leading a team to a SB victory. Even during the 80's it was Joe that got the credit, with a respectful nod to Jerry.

I think anyone expecting a single WR to lead a team to victory single handedly is holding him to an unrealistic standard.

But for what he is, a WR, he gets the job done and thats all he can really do. He caught for over 100, caught a TD and warranted enough attention that other guys were able to get open. What more do you expect from a WR? He touches the ball 5-10 times a game, his impact needs to be supported by the rest of the team or it goes for nothing.

Good post.Actually, this post does a fantastic job of supporting the Vikings position. Makes him sound pretty replaceable given the headaches he causes. Are other WR's as good? No but do they need to be given that you can't put your franchise on the back of one and win.

 

[Jobber]

The thing I noticed about that catch is that the Raiders still lost. Common theme with Moss.

He's gone to two conference championship games. And when his team has lost it's much more often been the fault of poor defense than Moss' fault. 130 yards and a TD isn't to blame for a loss.EDIT: jurb26

They'll be saying things like this about him his whole career. BTW, he looked just great in the 41-0 loss to the Giants.

Moss carrer numbers in playoff games (8):35/723/9

Thats over 90 yds and over a TD per game.

Please post his stats from his Super Bowl game next. If he's so unwordly good he should have been in a few right?

New to football are we? Because his TEAM hasn't made the superbowl, he's not a phenomenal wide receiver?

 

[j3r3m3y]

I know it waas the Pats, and I know it was opening week, but I thought Collins looked very mediocre.

Collins is my starter (I know, I know) and while he did look mediocre, I will take 17 points against the Pats in NE. He looked confused at times and some of his passes were just awful. Then again there were not a whole lot of plays where he had time to check off his recievers, and when he had time he looked pretty decent.

Moss looked great considering everything, but he did drop a couple of balls.

If this game showed us anything, I think it is that Moss is going to put up big numbers this year if he continues to get a lot of targets like he did last night.

And he will. Oakland will be behind a lot if that defensive performance is their "A" game.

Note to Lamont Jordan: welcome to the wonderful world of getting pounded as a starting running back. Only 15 more games to go.

Jordan was over-rated IMHO in most drafts, including my own. With that O-line, and the Raiders playing catch-up he will not score many TD's

 

[Deadzone21]

The thing I noticed about that catch is that the Raiders still lost. Common theme with Moss.

That's Fantasy Football! From that game, Collins was a better QB than Brady.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

But for what he is, a WR, he gets the job done and thats all he can really do. He caught for over 100, caught a TD and warranted enough attention that other guys were able to get open. What more do you expect from a WR? He touches the ball 5-10 times a game, his impact needs to be supported by the rest of the team or it goes for nothing.

Let's put it in football terms.I think when you have a vertical passing game centered around Moss that it lends to shorter drives. You either have drives that last a shorter number of plays and then punt, or you hit the home run, like Oakland did last night.

What this does is expose your defense to more time on the field.

The end result, since there's more times being forced to punt than there are home runs, is that your team loses.

I'm sure someone could do some statistical analysis on this, but this is just what I've observed after watching Moss for the last seven years (I'm a Vikings fan, living in Minneapolis).

 

[Funkley]

The thing I noticed about that catch is that the Raiders still lost. Common theme with Moss.

He's gone to two conference championship games. And when his team has lost it's much more often been the fault of poor defense than Moss' fault. 130 yards and a TD isn't to blame for a loss.EDIT: jurb26

They'll be saying things like this about him his whole career. BTW, he looked just great in the 41-0 loss to the Giants.

Moss carrer numbers in playoff games (8):35/723/9

Thats over 90 yds and over a TD per game.

Please post his stats from his Super Bowl game next. If he's so unwordly good he should have been in a few right?

New to football are we? Because his TEAM hasn't made the superbowl, he's not a phenomenal wide receiver?

Considering where his all time numbers rank he is likely to be among a very short list of 'immortal' players to never have even played in a Super Bowl. You can think that all coincidence if you'd like.

 

[j3r3m3y]

Good post.

Actually, this post does a fantastic job of supporting the Vikings position. Makes him sound pretty replaceable given the headaches he causes. Are other WR's as good? No but do they need to be given that you can't put your franchise on the back of one and win.

I agree completely. He was not worth the headache and the Vikes will be sucessful without him. The Eagles feel they could be sucessful without TO if push came to shove.But the Raiders O-line and QB don't quite compare to the Vikes or Eagles O-line and QB.

Maybe Moss is a bigger help to the Raiders because they don't have the rest of the offense in place and is thus worth the headaches?

 

[BlueOnion]

Let's put it in football terms.

I think when you have a vertical passing game centered around Moss that it lends to shorter drives. You either have drives that last a shorter number of plays and then punt, or you hit the home run, like Oakland did last night.

What this does is expose your defense to more time on the field.

The end result, since there's more times being forced to punt than there are home runs, is that your team loses.

I'm sure someone could do some statistical analysis on this, but this is just what I've observed after watching Moss for the last seven years (I'm a Vikings fan, living in Minneapolis).

I agree with a lot of this Andy and was always curious if others felt the same way I did. However, this is only applicable if they are throwing the ball deep to Moss; frequently and successfully.If you only throw him 3 to 5 balls a game while running against 6 and 7 man fronts; the roles could be reversed and the offense Moss is on could dominant time of possession.

 

[ZJilla]

The thing I noticed about that catch is that the Raiders still lost. Common theme with Moss.

That's Fantasy Football! From that game, Collins was a better QB than Brady.

I'd call it a wash265-3-1 = approx 26 pts

306-2-0 = approx 25 pts

 

[j3r3m3y]

Considering where his all time numbers rank he is likely to be among a very short list of 'immortal' players to never have even played in a Super Bowl. You can think that all coincidence if you'd like.

You know, he has a few years left in the tank...

 

[Funkley]

Considering where his all time numbers rank he is likely to be among a very short list of 'immortal' players to never have even played in a Super Bowl. You can think that all coincidence if you'd like.

You know, he has a few years left in the tank...

Well, at least we know it's not this year either.

 

[j3r3m3y]

Let's put it in football terms.

I think when you have a vertical passing game centered around Moss that it lends to shorter drives. You either have drives that last a shorter number of plays and then punt, or you hit the home run, like Oakland did last night.

What this does is expose your defense to more time on the field.

The end result, since there's more times being forced to punt than there are home runs, is that your team loses.

I'm sure someone could do some statistical analysis on this, but this is just what I've observed after watching Moss for the last seven years (I'm a Vikings fan, living in Minneapolis).

I agree with a lot of this Andy and was always curious if others felt the same way I did. However, this is only applicable if they are throwing the ball deep to Moss; frequently and successfully.If you only throw him 3 to 5 balls a game while running against 6 and 7 man fronts; the roles could be reversed and the offense Moss is on could dominant time of possession.

I agree. Don't focus on Moss. Make the other team respect him and utilize your other players. I think this will play out more as you see Oakland play defenses that arent NE.The problem in Minn was the "Randy Ratio".

 

[BigJim®]

The problem in Minn was the "Randy Ratio".the refusal to use FA cap, the defense, the offensive line, the coaching staff, its game management and its unabashed idiocy of informing the rest of the league, in advance, of the "Randy Ratio".

Fixed.

 

[Me & My Uncle]

The thing I noticed about that catch is that the Raiders still lost. Common theme with Moss.

R. Moss - 5/130/1

Oakland - 0-1-0

Get used to it Raiders fans.

Madden and Michaels made me want to punch the screen when they both talked about how they don't understand "addition by subtraction".

When is the last time the Pats lost at home? Get some perspective, people.

This is just sad. Minn had a 64-48 record with Moss on the team, went to the playoffs 4 of 7 years and 2 NFC Champ games. Not to mention Oak was a 5-11 team last year playing the 2 time defending SB Champs and only modern day dynasty in their back yard. Yet still people find a way to try and twist this into a Moss hate fest. So, who were you expecting to win the game fellas.

And that is the reason they so often fail to see how much he will help Collins and that Culpepper will return to the pack. #2 QB? Who? Collins or McNabb? It sure as hell won't be DC.

 

[stbugs]

The thing I noticed about that catch is that the Raiders still lost. Common theme with Moss.

That's Fantasy Football! From that game, Collins was a better QB than Brady.

He was, but it did take a blocked punt to get him the last TD. For the rest of the game it looked like Brady was going to stay ahead of him until the end.Also, Brady was drafted 4 rounds later (by me) than Collins, so in my league Collins outscored him 22-20, but based on real value, I would say Brady was better for me since I picked Torry Holt in the same round as Collins and in Brady's round, the WRs were a lot worse. If LJ and Crockett actually get some rushing TDs this year, I don't think Collins will do as well on average as he did last night, especially since he only fumbled once with no INTs, which is fantastic for Collins. The Pats pass defense is not as good as their rush defense. They got killed in a few games last year against AJ Feeley and Carson Palmer and they really didn't improve the passing defense at all.

 

[John 14:6]

The problem in Minn was the "Randy Ratio".the refusal to use FA cap, the defense, the offensive line, the coaching staff, its game management and its unabashed idiocy of informing the rest of the league, in advance, of the "Randy Ratio".

Fixed.

 

[jurb26]

The thing I noticed about that catch is that the Raiders still lost. Common theme with Moss.

That's Fantasy Football! From that game, Collins was a better QB than Brady.

He was, but it did take a blocked punt to get him the last TD. For the rest of the game it looked like Brady was going to stay ahead of him until the end.Also, Brady was drafted 4 rounds later (by me) than Collins, so in my league Collins outscored him 22-20, but based on real value, I would say Brady was better for me since I picked Torry Holt in the same round as Collins and in Brady's round, the WRs were a lot worse. If LJ and Crockett actually get some rushing TDs this year, I don't think Collins will do as well on average as he did last night, especially since he only fumbled once with no INTs, which is fantastic for Collins. The Pats pass defense is not as good as their rush defense. They got killed in a few games last year against AJ Feeley and Carson Palmer and they really didn't improve the passing defense at all.

I think this is a very optimsitic way of looking at it on your part. For one, 300/2 is not common place for Brady and will not be this year either. Brady may have faced the worst pass D and overall D he will see all year in that game, while Collins may have faced his best! While Collins has never been a 3 TD per game type QB, with the D we saw Oak put on the field last night, he very will could and SHOULD be IMO. NE can again, not say the same. I for one would be very surprised if Collins did not out score Brady, not just most weeks this year, but by more than he did last night in most weeks to boot.

 

[craigboy]

But for what he is, a WR, he gets the job done and thats all he can really do. He caught for over 100, caught a TD and warranted enough attention that other guys were able to get open. What more do you expect from a WR? He touches the ball 5-10 times a game, his impact needs to be supported by the rest of the team or it goes for nothing.

Let's put it in football terms.I think when you have a vertical passing game centered around Moss that it lends to shorter drives. You either have drives that last a shorter number of plays and then punt, or you hit the home run, like Oakland did last night.

What this does is expose your defense to more time on the field.

The end result, since there's more times being forced to punt than there are home runs, is that your team loses.

I'm sure someone could do some statistical analysis on this, but this is just what I've observed after watching Moss for the last seven years (I'm a Vikings fan, living in Minneapolis).

This would be a great point... if it wasn't totally wrong.In 2004 the Vikings were 4th in the NFL in time of possession

In 2003 the Vikings lead the NFL in time of Possession.

 

[ZJilla]

This is just sad. Minn had a 64-48 record with Moss on the team, went to the playoffs 4 of 7 years and 2 NFC Champ games. Not to mention Oak was a 5-11 team last year playing the 2 time defending SB Champs and only modern day dynasty in their back yard. Yet still people find a way to try and twist this into a Moss hate fest. So, who were you expecting to win the game fellas.

And that is the reason they so often fail to see how much he will help Collins and that Culpepper will return to the pack. #2 QB? Who? Collins or McNabb? It sure as hell won't be DC.

Yeah, he had a record year last year when Moss was hurt for half the games because Moss was so effing helpful.

 

[jurb26]

But for what he is, a WR, he gets the job done and thats all he can really do. He caught for over 100, caught a TD and warranted enough attention that other guys were able to get open. What more do you expect from a WR? He touches the ball 5-10 times a game, his impact needs to be supported by the rest of the team or it goes for nothing.

Let's put it in football terms.I think when you have a vertical passing game centered around Moss that it lends to shorter drives. You either have drives that last a shorter number of plays and then punt, or you hit the home run, like Oakland did last night.

What this does is expose your defense to more time on the field.

The end result, since there's more times being forced to punt than there are home runs, is that your team loses.

I'm sure someone could do some statistical analysis on this, but this is just what I've observed after watching Moss for the last seven years (I'm a Vikings fan, living in Minneapolis).

This would be a great point... if it wasn't totally wrong.In 2004 the Vikings were 4th in the NFL in time of possession

In 2003 the Vikings lead the NFL in time of Possession.

Your facts are not wlecome here, it's a witch hunt.

 

[reg]

some of the comments in this thread are just

 

[Andy Dufresne]

But for what he is, a WR, he gets the job done and thats all he can really do. He caught for over 100, caught a TD and warranted enough attention that other guys were able to get open. What more do you expect from a WR? He touches the ball 5-10 times a game, his impact needs to be supported by the rest of the team or it goes for nothing.

Let's put it in football terms.I think when you have a vertical passing game centered around Moss that it lends to shorter drives. You either have drives that last a shorter number of plays and then punt, or you hit the home run, like Oakland did last night.

What this does is expose your defense to more time on the field.

The end result, since there's more times being forced to punt than there are home runs, is that your team loses.

I'm sure someone could do some statistical analysis on this, but this is just what I've observed after watching Moss for the last seven years (I'm a Vikings fan, living in Minneapolis).

This would be a great point... if it wasn't totally wrong.In 2004 the Vikings were 4th in the NFL in time of possession

In 2003 the Vikings lead the NFL in time of Possession.

Your facts are not wlecome here, it's a witch hunt.

All right. I'm wrong.

 

[jurb26]

But for what he is, a WR, he gets the job done and thats all he can really do. He caught for over 100, caught a TD and warranted enough attention that other guys were able to get open. What more do you expect from a WR? He touches the ball 5-10 times a game, his impact needs to be supported by the rest of the team or it goes for nothing.

Let's put it in football terms.I think when you have a vertical passing game centered around Moss that it lends to shorter drives. You either have drives that last a shorter number of plays and then punt, or you hit the home run, like Oakland did last night.

What this does is expose your defense to more time on the field.

The end result, since there's more times being forced to punt than there are home runs, is that your team loses.

I'm sure someone could do some statistical analysis on this, but this is just what I've observed after watching Moss for the last seven years (I'm a Vikings fan, living in Minneapolis).

This would be a great point... if it wasn't totally wrong.In 2004 the Vikings were 4th in the NFL in time of possession

In 2003 the Vikings lead the NFL in time of Possession.

Your facts are not wlecome here, it's a witch hunt.

All right. I'm wrong.

Well; honestly I don't think you are entirely wrong. Yes, if your O is totally dependent on big plays form the passing game (Moss) and can't move the ball in any other way, what you said will be true. The thing is though; Moss by mere presence does a great deal to open up running games and underneath passing lanes. It is up to the coaching staff to diversify the plays and take advantage of that though. I don't think the Oak coaches did a very good job of that last night.

 

[Reaper]

The thing I noticed about that catch is that the Raiders still lost. Common theme with Moss.

That's Fantasy Football! From that game, Collins was a better QB than Brady.

He was, but it did take a blocked punt to get him the last TD. For the rest of the game it looked like Brady was going to stay ahead of him until the end.Also, Brady was drafted 4 rounds later (by me) than Collins, so in my league Collins outscored him 22-20, but based on real value, I would say Brady was better for me since I picked Torry Holt in the same round as Collins and in Brady's round, the WRs were a lot worse. If LJ and Crockett actually get some rushing TDs this year, I don't think Collins will do as well on average as he did last night, especially since he only fumbled once with no INTs, which is fantastic for Collins. The Pats pass defense is not as good as their rush defense. They got killed in a few games last year against AJ Feeley and Carson Palmer and they really didn't improve the passing defense at all.

GREAT job Nabbing Holt over Collins Genius.

 

[stbugs]

The thing I noticed about that catch is that the Raiders still lost. Common theme with Moss.

That's Fantasy Football! From that game, Collins was a better QB than Brady.

He was, but it did take a blocked punt to get him the last TD. For the rest of the game it looked like Brady was going to stay ahead of him until the end.Also, Brady was drafted 4 rounds later (by me) than Collins, so in my league Collins outscored him 22-20, but based on real value, I would say Brady was better for me since I picked Torry Holt in the same round as Collins and in Brady's round, the WRs were a lot worse. If LJ and Crockett actually get some rushing TDs this year, I don't think Collins will do as well on average as he did last night, especially since he only fumbled once with no INTs, which is fantastic for Collins. The Pats pass defense is not as good as their rush defense. They got killed in a few games last year against AJ Feeley and Carson Palmer and they really didn't improve the passing defense at all.

GREAT job Nabbing Holt over Collins Genius.

Thanks for the compliment. I agree that picking Holt over Collins is a no brainer, but in my draft they went in the same round, so that's all I can report.I was just trying to point out that Collins outscoring Brady or Manning outscoring Brooks point wise is not the only thing that is important. I may be stating the obvious here, but obviously my point was missed. Collins was projected as QB5 and Brady as QB9 by FBGs, but because of the Moss effect, Collins got drafted much higher (Antsports had it at 2 rounds, but it was 4 in my league - mainly due to the fact that you have to fill out your roster before you can take a 3rd QB), so if Brady matches Collins then he has been a better value. Just looking at score is ignoring the whole theory of value and it sure seemed like that was the OP's comment.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I'm not denying that Moss is a phenominal talent. I'm just saying that his phenominal talent doesn't always translate into wins for his team.

I don't think anyone disagrees with that. Most of the teams Walter Payton and Barry Sanders played on were pretty bad.

 

[Jim Otto]

I don't think Collins will do as well on average as he did last night, especially since he only had one INT and no fumbles, which is fantastic for Collins.

Fixedoh yeah and ...

When was Collins ever surrounded by this level of talent? He will have a career year and will be a top flight fantasy quarterback this season.

 

[stbugs]

The thing I noticed about that catch is that the Raiders still lost. Common theme with Moss.

That's Fantasy Football! From that game, Collins was a better QB than Brady.

He was, but it did take a blocked punt to get him the last TD. For the rest of the game it looked like Brady was going to stay ahead of him until the end.Also, Brady was drafted 4 rounds later (by me) than Collins, so in my league Collins outscored him 22-20, but based on real value, I would say Brady was better for me since I picked Torry Holt in the same round as Collins and in Brady's round, the WRs were a lot worse. If LJ and Crockett actually get some rushing TDs this year, I don't think Collins will do as well on average as he did last night, especially since he only fumbled once with no INTs, which is fantastic for Collins. The Pats pass defense is not as good as their rush defense. They got killed in a few games last year against AJ Feeley and Carson Palmer and they really didn't improve the passing defense at all.

I think this is a very optimsitic way of looking at it on your part. For one, 300/2 is not common place for Brady and will not be this year either. Brady may have faced the worst pass D and overall D he will see all year in that game, while Collins may have faced his best! While Collins has never been a 3 TD per game type QB, with the D we saw Oak put on the field last night, he very will could and SHOULD be IMO. NE can again, not say the same. I for one would be very surprised if Collins did not out score Brady, not just most weeks this year, but by more than he did last night in most weeks to boot.

See my post above. I am not saying that Brady will do better than Collins, but based on where he was drafter, I would rather have Brady/Holt than Collins/Muhammad or Collins/Stokely (both straight from my draft - PPR league so QBs are even less important).I watched a good bit of the game and Brady looked much better than Collins. I don't know how many blocked punts the Raiders will have or how many 2/5 yard TD passes he will have without any Oakland rushing TDs, but I wouldn't bet on Collins having 48TDs at the end of the season. That and the fact that Brady averages about 230 yards per game and has thrown more than 22 TDs (Collins career best) in his last 3 years, I wouldn't be surprised if Brady maintained his 2 TD per game rate and finished as good asCollins. Again, all I really need is for Brady to keep it close to be deemed a good value.

Also, NE's pass defense was ranked 13th (17th in yardage according to Matchup email) last year and gave up more than 1TD a game, not exactly the best that Collins will see this year, especially since according the the FBGs PPG allowed for QBs, he will see 7 games with defenses ranked better than NE.

 

[jurb26]

watched a good bit of the game and Brady looked much better than Collins. I don't know how many blocked punts the Raiders will have or how many 2/5 yard TD passes he will have without any Oakland rushing TDs, but I wouldn't bet on Collins having 48TDs at the end of the season. That and the fact that Brady averages about 230 yards per game and has thrown more than 22 TDs (Collins career best) in his last 3 years, I wouldn't be surprised if Brady maintained his 2 TD per game rate and finished as good asCollins. Again, all I really need is for Brady to keep it close to be deemed a good value.

Also, NE's pass defense was ranked 13th (17th in yardage according to Matchup email) last year and gave up more than 1TD a game, not exactly the best that Collins will see this year, especially since according the the FBGs PPG allowed for QBs, he will see 7 games with defenses ranked better than NE.

How many teams do you think Oak will play that have the ability to collapse the pocket with 3 and 4 man rushes? NE was doing that all night. You ask how many blocked punts will Oak get this year, which avoids the real point IMO. The real question is how many TOs they can force, they had 1 last night. I think their D as bad as it is, is good for 1 TO a game. In case your wondering the league low for TOs forced last year was 15. So one per game even for the WORST of NFL Ds is not what I would call unexpected. Thats what Oak's D got them, 1. Personally, I don't think Brady will be able to keep it close with Collins. I could very well be wrong.As for the NE pass D of last year, are you talking about the same pass D that lost nearly every starter on it and was picking up new "reborn" guys off the WW every week? Last year is a poor translation here IMO.

Brady was certainly the better value for you here in week 1, I just don't expect it to last all season.

 

[stbugs]

I don't think Collins will do as well on average as he did last night, especially since he only had one INT and no fumbles, which is fantastic for Collins.

Fixedoh yeah and ...

When was Collins ever surrounded by this level of talent? He will have a career year and will be a top flight fantasy quarterback this season.

My bad. I forgot they called it an INT because it never hit the ground.Also, I never said Brady will do better than Collins or that Collins won't do well, I just said that he sure didn't look that great even with all that talent out there against a decent, but not top 10 pass defense. Geez, it isn't like he doesn't turn the ball over and is the Dave Kreig of today. Collins shares the fumble record of 23 in one season, which is ironically one more than his career high in TDs and even last year he had 20 INTs.

 

[stbugs]

watched a good bit of the game and Brady looked much better than Collins. I don't know how many blocked punts the Raiders will have or how many 2/5 yard TD passes he will have without any Oakland rushing TDs, but I wouldn't bet on Collins having 48TDs at the end of the season. That and the fact that Brady averages about 230 yards per game and has thrown more than 22 TDs (Collins career best) in his last 3 years, I wouldn't be surprised if Brady maintained his 2 TD per game rate and finished as good asCollins. Again, all I really need is for Brady to keep it close to be deemed a good value.

Also, NE's pass defense was ranked 13th (17th in yardage according to Matchup email) last year and gave up more than 1TD a game, not exactly the best that Collins will see this year, especially since according the the FBGs PPG allowed for QBs, he will see 7 games with defenses ranked better than NE.

How many teams do you think Oak will play that have the ability to collapse the pocket with 3 and 4 man rushes? NE was doing that all night. You ask how many blocked punts will Oak get this year, which avoids the real point IMO. The real question is how many TOs they can force, they had 1 last night. I think their D as bad as it is, is good for 1 TO a game. In case your wondering the league low for TOs forced last year was 15. So one per game even for the WORST of NFL Ds is not what I would call unexpected. Thats what Oak's D got them, 1. Personally, I don't think Brady will be able to keep it close with Collins. I could very well be wrong.As for the NE pass D of last year, are you talking about the same pass D that lost nearly every starter on it and was picking up new "reborn" guys off the WW every week? Last year is a poor translation here IMO.

Brady was certainly the better value for you here in week 1, I just don't expect it to last all season.

Don't you think that the fact that NE was able to collapse the pocket and put pressue on Collins all night with 3 man fronts is a bad thing? How is that going to be good for him? NE has a decent line but I thought it was a bad sign for Oakland's line that they were easily getting pressure with a 3 man line.I know that NE had injuries in the secondary, but why is last year a bad translation. Law and Poole only played 12 games combined, but they aren't there in 2005. Samuel and Gay are the starting CBs and they played 13 and 15 games in 2004. Harrison and Wilson are the safeties and they missed only one game combined. How are those four not indicative of their final ranking in 2004 and what their play will be like in 2005? Another quick point but the 13th ranking was NE's final 2004 ranking, whereas when Law and Poole played (1-5) they were 9th, so the guys that are playing now actually probably played worse than the final ranking of 13.

Again, I never said Brady would outscore Collins or that Collins would suck but in response to that one poster who only cared that Collins outscored Brady. That misses the whole point of FF, getting the best value when you draft. I would assume that Manning will outscore almost every other QB this year, but he was picked 3rd in my draft and I never would have touched him there.

Anyway, I think we agree on the whole value thing based on your week 1 comment and are probably on the same page except that you think Collins will do better than I think he will. He certainly has potential with all of the weapons, but I just never liked him as a QB.

Also, one note to be wary of Collins is that I met him at a Walter Camp All-American lunch. He signed my football as did a host of others. Here are the list of other offensive players that I got signatures from, just so you realize the magnitude of Collins being there: Rashaan Salaam , Kijana Carter :X :X :X , Michael Westbrook , Bobby Engram and Pete Mitchell :X . I did get to meet Korey Stringer (RIP) as well, but even the OL was not so good. The defensive team, however, had Derrick Brooks, Teddy Bruschi, Bobby Taylor, Ty Law, Kevin Carter, Todd Sauerbrun and Warren Sapp which was pretty damn good.

 

[Kit Fisto]

What you saw last night was the difference between a team loaded with superstars and a team.I'm really surprised that the rest of the NFL isn't onto this yet. It's been at least 4 years now.

 

[reg]

What you saw last night was the difference between a team loaded with superstars and a team.

I'm really surprised that the rest of the NFL isn't onto this yet. It's been at least 4 years now.

Which team was loaded with superstars?

 

[ZJilla]

What you saw last night was the difference between a team loaded with superstars and a team.

I'm really surprised that the rest of the NFL isn't onto this yet. It's been at least 4 years now.

We already know you're a Pats homer.Can you stop now? You beat a lousy defense, a RB who's never carried the ball more than 8 times in a game in his career, a QB who has more career INTs than TDs, and a superstar crybaby WR.

 

[John 14:6]

I'm really surprised that the rest of the NFL isn't onto this yet. It's been at least 4 years now.

Bill Belicheck can't coach more than one team is the problem.

 

[LawFitz]

Yeah, he had a record year last year when Moss was hurt for half the games because Moss was so effing helpful.

I wouldn't so hard if I were you bro.Take another look at Duante's season last year game by game... When Moss was healthy, DC was throwing 3-5 TDs per game and was the talk of the season before Manning was.

After Moss got hurt Duante's numbers dipped DRAMATICALLY. He only had ONE good game (a shoot out against a crappy Green Bay defense). Duante posted better stats after that poor stretch b/c, guess what... Moss was back. Even though it was evident the Randy was still not 100%, just his presense alone opened up the field again for Duante (and Burleson).

Now look at this season... Duante will still put up good numbers b/c he's a good QB, but look who he plays during the playoff weeks - Pitt and Balt! Ouch.

I'm not saying Duante is going to have a terrible year, but to say that Moss' absense last year had no effect on Duante is absurd.

Duante can still finish as high as #2, but a drop off to 5-10 isn't out of the question. And even worse, a sub-standard or even terrible performance during the fantasy playoffs is a distinct possibility.

Basically, this year's QB stock was as follows...

Manning

Duante

McNabb

Collins

Bulger

Favre

Green

Brady

etc, etc.

 

[ZJilla]

Yeah, he had a record year last year when Moss was hurt for half the games because Moss was so effing helpful.

I wouldn't so hard if I were you bro.Take another look at Duante's season last year game by game... When Moss was healthy, DC was throwing 3-5 TDs per game and was the talk of the season before Manning was.

After Moss got hurt Duante's numbers dipped DRAMATICALLY. He only had ONE good game (a shoot out against a crappy Green Bay defense). Duante posted better stats after that poor stretch b/c, guess what... Moss was back. Even though it was evident the Randy was still not 100%, just his presense alone opened up the field again for Duante (and Burleson).

Now look at this season... Duante will still put up good numbers b/c he's a good QB, but look who he plays during the playoff weeks - Pitt and Balt! Ouch.

I'm not saying Duante is going to have a terrible year, but to say that Moss' absense last year had no effect on Duante is absurd.

Duante can still finish as high as #2, but a drop off to 5-10 isn't out of the question. And even worse, a sub-standard or even terrible performance during the fantasy playoffs is a distinct possibility.

Basically, this year's QB stock was as follows...

Manning

Duante

McNabb

Bulger

Favre

Green

Brady

Collins

etc, etc.

I don't disagree. I'm not the one saying that Moss creates great QBs and they suck otherwise though. You'll note that I moved Collins down the list. He's always sucked....we'll see if that changes.

 

[LawFitz]

I don't disagree. I'm not the one saying that Moss creates great QBs and they suck otherwise though. You'll note that I moved Collins down the list. He's always sucked....we'll see if that changes.

Duante w/Moss = Great/Ridiculously GreatDuante w/o Moss = Good/Possibly Great

Collins w/Moss = OK NFL QB/Great FANTASY QB

Collins w/o Moss = Terrible NFL QB/ avg Fantasy QB

 

[ZJilla]

I don't disagree. I'm not the one saying that Moss creates great QBs and they suck otherwise though. You'll note that I moved Collins down the list. He's always sucked....we'll see if that changes.

Duante w/Moss = Great/Ridiculously GreatDuante w/o Moss = Good/Possibly Great

Collins w/Moss = OK NFL QB/Great FANTASY QB

Collins w/o Moss = Terrible NFL QB/ avg Fantasy QB

see, and I'd sayDaunte w/MOss = Great Fantasy QB

w/o - Great Fantasy QB, but slightly less than before

Collins w/Moss = Good, Possibly Great, needs to be different than before

w/o - middle of the pack QB

 

[LordHusker]

Thank you.DAUNTE!DAUNTE!It's not that hard to spell, guys.