I think voters are worse than nonvoters (1 Viewer)

[ren hoek]

I often see people expressing pride for having voted in elections. They get rewarded with little stickers & buttons. I see this sense of pride but I also see a sort of resentment come to the surface when they find out you didn't vote in a given election.

I think in their heads, It is more noble in some sense to have voted for Trump than to not have voted at all. I've seen people immediately default to the "oh well you lose your right to complain" stance and act like your opinion doesn't count anymore.

But this is a system most of us never asked for and certainly never consented to. It's implied that we owe some civic obligation to society or whatever to participate in the process of picking our rulers, who ultimately are owned by the same special interests. It's a big dog and pony show for the most part. But we're still badgered with campaign messaging like "VOTE", like if we just VOTE HARDER THIS TIME things will get better!

But the issues I care about, I do not get to vote on. Both parties want to maintain the forever war. Both parties want to ramp up the police state. Both parties turn a blind eye to Israel's war crimes- done in our name and with our tax dollars. I can't recall the last time an eventual US president did not speak before AIPAC. They both want to imprison Assange for publishing true things about the Iraq War. Both parties appear fine to let our currency get destroyed, and way of life along with it. Both parties look intent on moving heaven and earth to help Ukraine escalate a war with Russia, as the United States falls apart.

Basically, they both want to maintain the status quo. But who made all of this possible? The voters did. They're the ones that gave their consent to keeping the system as it is. They're the ones that gave us the miserable "choice" of Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton. They're the ones that fall for the same lies every election cycle, time & time again.

People that abstain from voting, by comparison, are completely neutral and bear no responsibility for putting these people in power. They've done no more harm to society at large than a squirrel climbing up a tree.

It's very easy to say 'well if you don't like it change it', and maybe you would have a point. It would be awesome were it so simple. But that's like saying 'why don't you singlehandedly dismantle this rigged system as we know it and replace it with something better.' I mean that's a much taller order than going to a ballot box every 2/4 years and returning to life as usual. There is no option on the ballot, and never will be, that says "I withdraw my consent."

I should clarify, I'm not talking about 3rd party/independent types that refuse to support mainstream Rs/Ds. I also realize there are exceptions here and there. But it's genuinely aggravating that voters subject us to the same corrupted, declining system over and over again, and then have the gall to act like they're doing me some grand civic service. Well they're not. They are only reinforcing the same failed ideologies that got us to this point. Voters are perpetuating the things ailing this country, not nonvoters.

 

[GordonGekko]

But the issues I care about, I do not get to vote on. Both parties want to maintain the forever war. Both parties want to ramp up the police state. Both parties turn a blind eye to Israel's war crimes- done in our name and with our tax dollars. I can't recall the last time an eventual US president did not speak before AIPAC. They both want to imprison Assange for publishing true things about the Iraq War. Both parties appear fine to let our currency get destroyed, and way of life along with it. Both parties look intent on moving heaven and earth to help Ukraine escalate a war with Russia, as the United States falls apart.

Basically, they both want to maintain the status quo. But who made all of this possible? The voters did. They're the ones that gave their consent to keeping the system as it is. They're the ones that gave us the miserable "choice" of Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton. They're the ones that fall for the same lies every election cycle, time & time again.

People that abstain from voting, by comparison, are completely neutral and bear no responsibility for putting these people in power. They've done no more harm to society at large than a squirrel climbing up a tree.

This is a very good topic, I'm glad you started it. You've said many thoughtful things over the past couple of years since I've been back into the forums on a regular basis.

Basic thoughts

1) I taught my godson when he was young that it's important to vote to honor those who died for our right to vote. We can honor their sacrifice and intent without approving of the current system. Simply vote for Gary Johnson or any candidate as such, who has no chance to technically "win" Also to vote to remind oneself that we still have the right to vote, even if so much of our political system is broken and corrupt. Votes are still courted by politicians for a reason.

2) The average American voter is a low information voter. There are even people who spend a lot of time around politics as a type of personal interest/hobby and they are still bizarrely but understandably low information voters. The PSF is chock full of hard line low information voters. It happens. There are no simple fixes in general to this, but there are some logistical changes that would help, but probably better reserved for another thread ( Maybe that's a good new thread for you to start as well, how to better inform the average voter) To be balanced, life is hard and the average working class person is just trying to get by, so their exposure to politics might be 10-15 minutes a day, if that. If you have a career, commute, kids, spouse, a hobby, life maintenance, gym, etc, etc, there's not a lot of time left for politics.

3) The most effective thing the average person can do is try to create change politically at a local level. You can't change abortion on a federal level, but you can make your neighborhood, town, and city better. It starts there. Strong neighborhoods create strong towns. Strong towns create strong cities. Strong cities create strong states. There is where the majority of focus should be for most Americans.

4) "Freedom" in America, including influence into politics, starts with financial freedom and potential platform. Joe Rogan, Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg can create massive impact on an individual level politically. But how free is that? Zuckerberg spend nearly half a billion dollars to swing the 2020 general cycle. Not including Facebook/Meta doing it's own partisan home cooking. However he's now under scrutiny and there's a decent chance he'll end up assassinated or in prison at some point. What's that power worth if now your children are full time targets by your political enemies? If you want to be a source of individual change, then you'll need that kind of weight and platform potential. Phil Knight right now is single handedly reshaping Oregon politics. You'll say that's not fair, and you are right, it's not fair. But it's your only option as an individual to impact the national level.

One point to note here, is what you are doing is extrapolating your abilities and critical thinking skills unto the masses. And it rarely works out that way. Most people are... the best word is simple. I wouldn't say dumb nor stupid, but simple. They vote in the manner they do because it's what they've always known. It's not an excuse but it's not going to get you far to ask people to do something beyond their capability. Zack Crockett can get you three yards. If you need one yard, he will get you three yards. If you need five yards, he'll get you three yards.

What I will say is all practical change requires a logistical framework first. I believe all young Americans from 15-18 or 16-19 should face mandatory conscription. Into a military like system or a Public Service Corps. People may agree or disagree, but the point I'm making is creating an actual logistical pathway to effect changes in young Americans. In effect, hope for change without a plan is just like trying to fight the tide.

I cannot make simple people into something unsimple. I can however put them into a better framework for a more practical path. Your answer is logistics. I have a lot of respect for the opinions of @Snotbubbles and @Shula-holic because they both break things down into functional compartmentalized smaller problems. They care about how things are going to work and move forward practically. They want to know "how the math adds up" or not.

One of the biggest life lessons I learned early was that how I felt was completely irrelevant to whether a problem could be solved or not. You should "feel" everything, because that's part of the human condition, then you have to let your feelings wash away and focus on the practical mechanics of problem solving. If you want more self aware voters, then you need more informed voters. How do you do that on a mass widespread scale that has a practical framework that can be achieved?

I"m not challenging your values, I respect the values you have, but I am challenging your problem solving. Because that's where real change happens.

 

[FairWarning]

By doing nothing, the voter made their choice. Actually their vote matters more in local and state elections, and they choose not to participate. From the voters who choose not to participate, we thank you for giving us a bigger say (by having fewer votes).

 

[Rubiobot]

3) The most effective thing the average person can do is try to create change politically at a local level. You can't change abortion on a federal level, but you can make your neighborhood, town, and city better. It starts there. Strong neighborhoods create strong towns. Strong towns create strong cities. Strong cities create strong states. There is where the majority of focus should be for most Americans.

I don't agree with you often but I could not agree more with the above. Sadly this is not high on the list of priorities of many voters.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Here are my official rankings:

1. Voters that agree with me.
2. Non-voters
3. Voters that disagree with me.

 

[FairWarning]

Here are my official rankings:

1. Voters that agree with me.
2. Non-voters
3. Voters that disagree with me.

I’m glad to make the top three.

 

[roadkill1292]

Maybe what we need is a very strong leader with virtually unfettered powers who will guide us back to the correct path, the one that stupid voters just can't see.

 

[dkp993]

I should clarify, I'm not talking about 3rd party/independent types that refuse to support mainstream Rs/Ds. I

I‘m convinced this is how real change will happen. I’ve voted 3rd party the last 2 election cycles in the General and plan to going forward until a true leader arises. Local elections I vote for the most common sense pro-business centrist I can find regardless of the letter next to their name.

 

[djmich]

I should clarify, I'm not talking about 3rd party/independent types that refuse to support mainstream Rs/Ds. I

I‘m convinced this is how real change happen. I’ve voted 3rd party the last 2 election cycles in the General and plan to going forward until a true leader arises. Local elections I vote for the most common sense pro-business centrist I can find regardless of the letter next to their name.

One corrupts
Two divides
Three provides balance

LOTR

 

[Stealthycat]

it everyone voted, the actual will of the people would be known

if nobody voted, we'd have no idea what the people wanted

 

[Jayrod]

it everyone voted, the actual will of the people would be known

if nobody voted, we'd have no idea what the people wanted

What does "the will of the people" even mean in this context? Our nation is divided along the lines of like 45-45-10. Even when one side "wins" it is with less than 50% support. Probably more like 40% when you factor in all of the non-participants.

How do 40% of the people constitute "the will of the people"? That entire concept is bunk at this stage in our nation's life.

 

[rockaction]

From the moment Kesey gets up there, it is a freaking jar. His jacket glows at dusk, and his helmet. Lined up behind him are more Day-Glo crazies, wearing aviator helmets and goggles and flight suits and Army tunics, Babbs, Gretch, Walker, Zonker, Mary Microgram, and little Day-Glo kids, and half of them carrying electric guitars and horns, mugging and moving around in Day-Glo streaks. The next jar is Kesey's voice, it is so non-forensic. He comes on soft, in the Oregon drawl, like he's just having a conversation with 15,000 people: You know, you're not gonna stop this war with this rally, by marching... That's what they do... They hold rallies and they march . .. They've been having wars for ten thousand years and you're not gonna stop it this way ... Ten thousand years, and this is the game they play to do it... holding rallies and having marches... and that's the same game you're playing... their game ... Whereupon he reaches into his great glowing Day-Glo coat and produces a harmonica and starts playing it right into the microphone, Home, home on the range, hawonking away on the ******* thing— Home... home ... on the ra-a-a-a-ange hawonkawonk... The crowd stands there in a sudden tender clump, most of them wondering if they heard right, cocking their heads and rolling their heads to one another. First of all, that conversational tone all of a sudden, and then random notes from the Day-Glo crazies behind him ripped out offen the electric guitars and the general babble of the place feeding into the microphone—did anybody hear right— —all the while Kesey is still up there hawonking away on the freaking harmonica. Home, home on the ra-a-a-a-a-a-a-ange— —ahhhh, that's it—they figure it's some calculated piece of stage business, playing Home, home on the range—building up to something like Yah! We know about that home! We know about that range! That rotten U.S. home and that rotten U.S. range! — —but instead it is the same down-home drawling voice— I was just looking at the speaker who was up here before me... and I couldn't hear what he was saying... but I could hear the sound of it... and I could hear your sound coming back at him ... and I could see the gestures— —and here Kesey starts parodying Paul Jacobs's stabbing little hands and his hunched-over stance and his— — and I could see his jawsticking out like this... silhouetted against the sky ... and you knowwho I saw... and who I heard?... Mussolini... I sawand I heard Mussolini here just a fewminutes ago... Yep ... you're playing their game... Then he starts hawonking away again, hawonking and hawonking Home, home on the range with that sad old setter harmonica-around-the-campfire pace—and the Pranksters back him up on their instruments, Babbs, Gretch, George, Zonker, weaving up there in a great Day-Glo freakout —and what the hell—a few boos, but mainly confusion—what in the name of God are the ninnies— —We've all heard all this and seen all this before, but we keep on doing it... Iwent to see the Beatles last month... And I heard 20,000 girls screaming together at the Beatles. .. and I couldn't hear what they were screaming, either... But you don't have to ... They're screaming Me! Me! Me! Me! ... I'm Me! ... That's the cry of the ego, and that's the cry of this rally!... Me! Me! Me! Me!... And that's why wars get fought... ego ... because enough people want to scream Pay attention to Me... Yep, you're playing their game... —and then more hawonkawonkawonkawonkawonka— —and the crowd starts going into a slump. It's as if the rally, the whole day, has been one long careful inflation of a helium balloon, preparing to take off—and suddenly somebody has pulled the plug. It's not what he is saying, either. It's the sound and the freaking sight and that ******* mournful harmonica and that stupid Chinese music by the freaks standing up behind him. It's the only thing the martial spirit can't stand—a put-on, a prank, a shuck, a goose in the anus. —Vietnam Day Committee seethe together at the edge of the platform: "Who the hell invited this *******!" "You invited him!" "Well, hell, we figured he's a writer, so he'll be against the war!" "Didn't you have enough speakers?" says Krassner. "You need all the big names you can get, to get the crowd out." "Well, that's what you get for being celebrity ****ers," says Krassner. If they had had one of those big hooks like they had on amateur night in the vaudeville days, they would have pulled Kesey off the podium right then. Well, then, why doesn't somebody just go up there and edge him off! He's ruining the ******* thing. But then they see all the Day-Glo crazies, men and women and children all weaving and electrified, clawing at guitars, blowing horns, all crazed aglow at sundown ... And the picture of the greatest anti-war rally in the history of America ending in a Day-Glo brawl to the tune of Home, home on the range ... —suddenly the hawonking on the freaking harmonica stops. Kesey leans into the microphone— There's only one thing to do . .. there's only one thing's gonna do any good at all... And that's everybody just look at it, look at the war, and turn your backs and say ... **** it... —hawonkawonkawonkawonka— —They hear that all right. The sound of the phrase—**** it—sounds so weird, so shocking, even here in Free Speech citadel, just coming out that way over a public loudspeaker, rolling over the heads of 15,000 souls— —Home, home on the range hawonkawonkawonka, and the Pranksters beginning to build up most madly on their instruments now, behind the harmonica, sounding like an insane honky-tonk version of Juan Carrillo who devised 96 tones on the back seat of a Willys Jeep, saved pennies all through the war to buy it, you understand, zinc pennies until the blue pustules formed under his zither finger nether there, you understand .. . —Just look at it and turn away and say ... **** it —say ... **** it ... hawonkawonkawonka blam —**** it— Hawonka****it. . .friends . . . THERE WAS NO WAYONE COULD PROVE KESEYHAD DONE IT. Nevertheless, something was gone out of the anti-war rally. The Real Barnburner spoke, and the Vietnam Day Committee tried to put in one last massive infusion of the old spirit and then gave the signal and the great march onOakland began, through the gloaming. Fifteen thousand souls ... shoulder to shoulder like in the old strike posters. At the Oakland-Berkeley line there was an arrow-shaped phalanx of police and National Guard. The Vietnam Day Committee marched in frantic clump at the head, trying to decide whether to force the issue, have a physical confrontation, heads busted, bayonets—or turn back when they ordered them to. Nobody seemed to have any resolve. Somebody would say, We have no choice, we've got to turn back—and somebody else would call him a Martin Luther King. That was about the worst thing you could call anybody on the New Left at that time. Martin Luther King turned back at the critical moment on the bridge at Selma. We can't risk submitting the crania of our devoted people to fracturization and degradation by those who do not shrink from a cowardly show of weaponry, he had said, going on like Social Science Negro in his sepulchral voice—the big solemn preachery Uncle Tom. Yah! yuh Tuskegee-headed Uncle Tom, yuh, yuh Booker T Washington peanut-butter lecture-podium Nobel Prize medal head, yuh— Uncle Tom—by the time it was all over, Martin Luther King was a stupid music-hall Handkerchief Head on the New Left—and here they were, calling each other Martin Luther Kings and other incredible things—but nobody had any good smashing iron zeal to carry the day—O where is our Zea-lot, who Day-glowed and ****ed up our heads—and there was nothing to do but grouse at the National Guard and turn back, which they did. What the hell has happened to us? Who did this? Why, it was the Masked Man— So the huge march turned around and headed for Civic Center Park in Berkeley and stood around there eating hamburgers and listening to music by a jug band—a group that later became known as Country Joe and the Fish—and wondering what the hell had happened. Then somebody started throwing tear gas from a rooftop and Bob Scheer was bravely telling everybody to lie down on the grass, because tear gas rises —but the jug band just stood there, petrified, with their hands and their instruments frozen in the same position as when the gas hit. It seems the jug band was high on something or other, and when the gas hit, the combination of the gas and whatever they were already up on—it pet rified them and they stood there in stark stiff medias res as if they were posing for an Iwo Jima sculpture for the biggest antiwar rally in the history of the American people. The whole rally now seemed like a big half ***, with the frozen jug band the picture of how far they had gotten

 

[Zegras11]

I should clarify, I'm not talking about 3rd party/independent types that refuse to support mainstream Rs/Ds. I

I‘m convinced this is how real change happen. I’ve voted 3rd party the last 2 election cycles in the General and plan to going forward until a true leader arises. Local elections I vote for the most common sense pro-business centrist I can find regardless of the letter next to their name.

Same last two cycles also. Haven't voted for a D yet. That could change if the R is an election denier, but they would have to be very pro business. Will never vote for one of those. About half way through my mail in ballot. First time doing this and enjoying all the research on everyone.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

From the moment Kesey gets up there, it is a freaking jar. His jacket glows at dusk, and his helmet.

Had to look this up. I'd have lost a substantial amount of money betting it was Hunter Thompson.

 

[roadkill1292]

Seems like everyone wants simple solutions to complex problems. Governing a diverse population of 330 million is complicated.

So we can either try to make our democracy better, with all the complications and frustrations that entails, or we can just give up and call for our own Victor Orban to take charge and relieve us of the chore of deciding for ourselves.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Victor Orban

Whoa whoa whoa. He's not my autocrat of choice! Can we have a vote?

 

[rockaction]

Had to look this up. I'd have lost a substantial amount of money betting it was Hunter Thompson.

I'd have given you points if that would have meant anything. Awfully close. To look at the format I cut and pasted it in and not think "gibberish" is either a credit to you or what you think of my postings. Thanks.

I'm just saying that to give that a chance is pretty cool.

 

[dkp993]

Seems like everyone wants simple solutions to complex problems. Governing a diverse population of 330 million is complicated.

So we can either try to make our democracy better, with all the complications and frustrations that entails, or we can just give up and call for our own Victor Orban to take charge and relieve us of the chore of deciding for ourselves.

Can someone just tell me what the right answer is.

 

[roadkill1292]

Victor Orban

Whoa whoa whoa. He's not my autocrat of choice! Can we have a vote?

Vlad instead?

As authoritarianism and/or illiberal democracy continues to gain in popularity, the strong-man supporters will actually have to derive a method for selecting their dictator. And for eventually removing him. Or maybe I just don't get it, that it's one of those things that just works itself out.

 

[Da Guru]

When you see the "vote" commercials it only means "Vote" if you are voting my way..otherwise stay home.

 

[roadkill1292]

Neo-reactionary writer Curtis Yarvin, who actually advocates for single person rule, suggests that the way to get there is for a Trump-like candidate to simply make it a campaign promise. That if he's elected, he will declare a state of emergency, purge the government of opposition, nationalize the police, shut down unfriendly media and deprive (by ignoring) the other two branches of the government (a sort of "how many divisions does the pope have" strategy) .

This candidate will be enormously popular for promising clarity of vision and if some squishy democracy advocates don't like it, eff 'em.

 

[The General]

Sounds pretty lazy

Seems like everyone wants simple solutions to complex problems. Governing a diverse population of 330 million is complicated.

So we can either try to make our democracy better, with all the complications and frustrations that entails, or we can just give up and call for our own Victor Orban to take charge and relieve us of the chore of deciding for ourselves.

Right.

What a strange premise this thread has. But hey, whatever floats your boat.

 

[ren hoek]

Vlad instead?

As authoritarianism and/or illiberal democracy continues to gain in popularity, the strong-man supporters will actually have to derive a method for selecting their dictator. And for eventually removing him. Or maybe I just don't get it, that it's one of those things that just works itself out.

Roadkill please spare me with the russia stuff. I’m not sure where you think I advocated for dictatorship. If anything I would like no person rule. Do you need someone overseeing your life and telling you what to do. I don’t think any of us do.

And if the states hate each other so much, maybe they should secede. The reason it’s hard to govern 330 million people is because there never should have been a leviathan state in the first place.

What’s the correct model? I don’t know. I’m not sure civilization was the best idea. By civilization I mean humans dominating & exploiting the entire world. Maybe we’re not that bright and weren’t meant to rule the world. I’ll try and offer a ‘solution’ as an anarchist.

I don’t consider anarchism to be the absence of societal systems. To me it just means they would be funded (or abolished) voluntarily according to each person’s preference. We could actually fire bad police officers and experiment with functional education systems. There would be no blood on my hands, because I wouldn’t shell out 33% of my livelihood to pay for drones and cruise missiles obliterating people that I never met and never had a problem with. There would be no central bank bankrupting us and our kids’ futures to enrich a handful of plutocrats.

I think most people just want to live peacefully on their own terms. Most of us do it all the time every day without even thinking about it. I believe in spontaneous order. We see it everywhere in our daily lives, even in the animal kingdom.

But going back to the main point. Voters enable this violent & dehumanizing way of life to continue. They give it their consent and affirm it every election cycle. And to me that makes them worse than nonvoters.