mr. furley
Footballguy
luck?ichiro chops at the ball and hopes he can run it outHe uses a stool?
he places the ball in spots on the field. that's just ridiculous. i'd hardly call that luck or chopping.
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Ichiro Suzuki - HOF worthy? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter guru_007
- Start date
he places the ball in spots on the field. that's just ridiculous. i'd hardly call that luck or chopping.
s_ezy
Footballguy
the luck comment was in referrence to his HRs, the ones that leave the park are rare at best.he IS good at placing the ball, and does so by ninja chopping at the ball, he just happens to be really good at itluck?ichiro chops at the ball and hopes he can run it outHe uses a stool?
he places the ball in spots on the field. that's just ridiculous. i'd hardly call that luck or chopping.
mr. furley
Footballguy
HR power doesn't come from sheer muscle or strength.the luck comment was in referrence to his HRs, the ones that leave the park are rare at best.he IS good at placing the ball, and does so by ninja chopping at the ball, he just happens to be really good at itluck?ichiro chops at the ball and hopes he can run it outHe uses a stool?
he places the ball in spots on the field. that's just ridiculous. i'd hardly call that luck or chopping.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
One HR/35 ABs
dparker713
Footballguy
He has to play for two more years before he's even eligible.guru_007 said:
He's only 35, and signed a contract extension that runs through 2012. I don't think this is going to be an issue. Also, this rule can be waived for certain exceptions.
the moops
Footballguy
There have been exceptions made in the past in regards to this rule.If Ichiro was to suddenly die, or become unable to play baseball anymore due to extreme circumstances, there is no doubt in my mind that an exception would be made for him as well.
maxwelledison
Footballguy
100%.I've seen him put on a clinic twice against the White Sox. Once he hit a leadoff homer that still hasn't landed that set the tone for the game. It really looked like he could drop his avg. by about 30 points and easily hit 20 HRs. The second time was a 5-5 performance in the year he broke the all-time single season hits record. Dude was just serving the ball past infielders like he was using a tennis racquet. After the fifth hit, a double past a diving Joe Crede IIRC, he received a standing ovation. One of my favorite baseball memories.guru_007 said:
Mr. Pickles
Footballguy
Just to put another spin on this discussion, it's interesting that Ichiro's slugging percentage is so low compared to guys with whom you'd think he'd compare favorably. Boggs, Gwynn, Carew all had more power and extra base hits. Most of those guys had at least a couple of monster seasons where they went far over .500 slugging, but Ichiro never has. All of his average is due to singles, and that's quite rare even among the guys we tend to think of as slap hitters with high averages. I was surprised how few doubles he hits. It's far too low given his talent.
It's interesing to compare Ichiro's career numbers with others using baseball-reference.com. Boggs, Gwynn, Carew all compare favorably to each other and a laundry list of HOFers. Ichiro compares to almost no one recognizable. I wondered if this was due to some age anomally where he is a strange case due to entering the league at 27, but it doesn't seem that way. Rather I think his brand of hitting isn't at all typical of a HOF player. His predictive metrics on B-R.com seem to indicate that he is on his way eventually, but he certainly isn't taking a usual or known path.
Once you factor in defense, I think the argument is easier to make, but purely based on hitting, it's not as clear cut as
many would like to believe.
It's interesing to compare Ichiro's career numbers with others using baseball-reference.com. Boggs, Gwynn, Carew all compare favorably to each other and a laundry list of HOFers. Ichiro compares to almost no one recognizable. I wondered if this was due to some age anomally where he is a strange case due to entering the league at 27, but it doesn't seem that way. Rather I think his brand of hitting isn't at all typical of a HOF player. His predictive metrics on B-R.com seem to indicate that he is on his way eventually, but he certainly isn't taking a usual or known path.
Once you factor in defense, I think the argument is easier to make, but purely based on hitting, it's not as clear cut as
many would like to believe.
Eephus
Footballguy
In addition to his stats, Ichiro has a mystique about him that will appeal to future voters. Factor in the element of Ichiro: the first Asian superstar and the perception of him as a clean player during the steroid era and he should get a good deal of support.
He has to keep putting up the numbers for a few years but I think his probability now is significantly higher than his black/gray ink numbers would suggest.
He has to keep putting up the numbers for a few years but I think his probability now is significantly higher than his black/gray ink numbers would suggest.
dparker713
Footballguy
I understand his historical significance as the first true Asian star, but I just dont find him anywhere near the type of lock others in this thread seem to think he is. He's got pretty much no power, and while hes got a good OBP, its not truly elite. When looking at winshares or run created, he's just not that valuable. Now, he's a plus defender and those metrics dont account for that, but even still I dont see him as a surefire HOFer.
Bogart
Footballguy
Yeah, I found this extremely interesting. When the best you can do comparision wise is Griffey Sr and Mickey Rivers, that puts a big
over my head.
Mr. Pickles
Footballguy
Here's another interesting tidbit that I recently discovered...In a chat on the Freakonomics blog last year, Bill James was asked a slew of questions, and one of them was this: "Who are the ten players in the Hall of Fame that do not deserve to be there." One of them was Ross Youngs. It turns out that Youngs is the only HOF member that baseball-reference.com lists as a similar batter to Ichiro (#5). I think the reason for the comparison is the shorter career length and the high average with relatively little power. It seems clear that Ichiro will far surpass Youngs, but it is interesting to note that they are quite similar at this point.It also turns out that Youngs is quite similar to Fred Clarke, and we all know what a stud he is.Yeah, I found this extremely interesting. When the best you can do comparision wise is Griffey Sr and Mickey Rivers, that puts a big
Eephus
Footballguy
Youngs had the added advantage of dying young. There was a bit of Gehrig/Brian Piccolo in his story. The Veterans Committee must have been feeling especially sentimental that year.Here's another interesting tidbit that I recently discovered...In a chat on the Freakonomics blog last year, Bill James was asked a slew of questions, and one of them was this: "Who are the ten players in the Hall of Fame that do not deserve to be there." One of them was Ross Youngs. It turns out that Youngs is the only HOF member that baseball-reference.com lists as a similar batter to Ichiro (#5). I think the reason for the comparison is the shorter career length and the high average with relatively little power. It seems clear that Ichiro will far surpass Youngs, but it is interesting to note that they are quite similar at this point.It also turns out that Youngs is quite similar to Fred Clarke, and we all know what a stud he is.Yeah, I found this extremely interesting. When the best you can do comparision wise is Griffey Sr and Mickey Rivers, that puts a big
Mr. Pickles
Footballguy
I'm straining to find an example of the Veteran's Committee ever making a good decision. Whatcha got?Youngs had the added advantage of dying young. There was a bit of Gehrig/Brian Piccolo in his story. The Veterans Committee must have been feeling especially sentimental that year.Here's another interesting tidbit that I recently discovered...In a chat on the Freakonomics blog last year, Bill James was asked a slew of questions, and one of them was this: "Who are the ten players in the Hall of Fame that do not deserve to be there." One of them was Ross Youngs. It turns out that Youngs is the only HOF member that baseball-reference.com lists as a similar batter to Ichiro (#5).Yeah, I found this extremely interesting. When the best you can do comparision wise is Griffey Sr and Mickey Rivers, that puts a big
I think the reason for the comparison is the shorter career length and the high average with relatively little power. It seems clear that Ichiro will far surpass Youngs, but it is interesting to note that they are quite similar at this point.
It also turns out that Youngs is quite similar to Fred Clarke, and we all know what a stud he is.
Limp Ditka
Footballguy
Ron Santo's still on the outside looking in.I'm straining to find an example of the Veteran's Committee ever making a good decision. Whatcha got?Youngs had the added advantage of dying young. There was a bit of Gehrig/Brian Piccolo in his story. The Veterans Committee must have been feeling especially sentimental that year.Here's another interesting tidbit that I recently discovered...In a chat on the Freakonomics blog last year, Bill James was asked a slew of questions, and one of them was this: "Who are the ten players in the Hall of Fame that do not deserve to be there." One of them was Ross Youngs. It turns out that Youngs is the only HOF member that baseball-reference.com lists as a similar batter to Ichiro (#5).Yeah, I found this extremely interesting. When the best you can do comparision wise is Griffey Sr and Mickey Rivers, that puts a big
I think the reason for the comparison is the shorter career length and the high average with relatively little power. It seems clear that Ichiro will far surpass Youngs, but it is interesting to note that they are quite similar at this point.
It also turns out that Youngs is quite similar to Fred Clarke, and we all know what a stud he is.
Eephus
Footballguy
Ed Walsh, Arky Vaughn, Johnny Mize, Earl Averill, Larry Doby are all very deserving. I have no complaints about Joe Gordon this year. I like Santo as well, but that's another thread.I think the current committee structure is flawed, but can't really suggest a better system.I'm straining to find an example of the Veteran's Committee ever making a good decision. Whatcha got?Youngs had the added advantage of dying young. There was a bit of Gehrig/Brian Piccolo in his story. The Veterans Committee must have been feeling especially sentimental that year.Here's another interesting tidbit that I recently discovered...In a chat on the Freakonomics blog last year, Bill James was asked a slew of questions, and one of them was this: "Who are the ten players in the Hall of Fame that do not deserve to be there." One of them was Ross Youngs. It turns out that Youngs is the only HOF member that baseball-reference.com lists as a similar batter to Ichiro (#5).Yeah, I found this extremely interesting. When the best you can do comparision wise is Griffey Sr and Mickey Rivers, that puts a big
I think the reason for the comparison is the shorter career length and the high average with relatively little power. It seems clear that Ichiro will far surpass Youngs, but it is interesting to note that they are quite similar at this point.
It also turns out that Youngs is quite similar to Fred Clarke, and we all know what a stud he is.
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Mr. Pickles
Footballguy
Joe Tinker. Joe Tinker.
Bogart
Footballguy
I had to go and read this, just to make sure he didn't mention Rabbit Maranville. Bill James is still cool in my book.Here's another interesting tidbit that I recently discovered...In a chat on the Freakonomics blog last year, Bill James was asked a slew of questions, and one of them was this: "Who are the ten players in the Hall of Fame that do not deserve to be there." One of them was Ross Youngs. It turns out that Youngs is the only HOF member that baseball-reference.com lists as a similar batter to Ichiro (#5). I think the reason for the comparison is the shorter career length and the high average with relatively little power. It seems clear that Ichiro will far surpass Youngs, but it is interesting to note that they are quite similar at this point.It also turns out that Youngs is quite similar to Fred Clarke, and we all know what a stud he is.Yeah, I found this extremely interesting. When the best you can do comparision wise is Griffey Sr and Mickey Rivers, that puts a bigover my head.
Mr. Pickles
Footballguy
I had to go and read this, just to make sure he didn't mention Rabbit Maranville. Bill James is still cool in my book.Here's another interesting tidbit that I recently discovered...In a chat on the Freakonomics blog last year, Bill James was asked a slew of questions, and one of them was this: "Who are the ten players in the Hall of Fame that do not deserve to be there." One of them was Ross Youngs. It turns out that Youngs is the only HOF member that baseball-reference.com lists as a similar batter to Ichiro (#5).Yeah, I found this extremely interesting. When the best you can do comparision wise is Griffey Sr and Mickey Rivers, that puts a bigover my head.
I think the reason for the comparison is the shorter career length and the high average with relatively little power. It seems clear that Ichiro will far surpass Youngs, but it is interesting to note that they are quite similar at this point.
It also turns out that Youngs is quite similar to Fred Clarke, and we all know what a stud he is.
Someone explain the 1914 NL MVP voting. Hmm... Johnny Evers or Rabbit Maranville. Hell, Bill James (not the author) came in third that year as a pitcher and had a higher average than Rabbit.That must've been some sweet defense.
Bogart
Footballguy
I wish I could have seen the games, but I can't. All you can go from is the numbers, and while he had 65 errors, it was still the 3rd best fielding percentage for a SS, because he had so many more assists and PO than the other guys. I'm guessing his range was just insane.But, still, I can't explain away the batting numbers. Led the team in SB that year by a wide margin, played in the most games in the league, 2nd most ABs in the league (probably hit leadoff?) and was the leader of a team that won the NL by 10.5 games and swept the World Series.I had to go and read this, just to make sure he didn't mention Rabbit Maranville. Bill James is still cool in my book.Here's another interesting tidbit that I recently discovered...In a chat on the Freakonomics blog last year, Bill James was asked a slew of questions, and one of them was this: "Who are the ten players in the Hall of Fame that do not deserve to be there." One of them was Ross Youngs. It turns out that Youngs is the only HOF member that baseball-reference.com lists as a similar batter to Ichiro (#5).Yeah, I found this extremely interesting. When the best you can do comparision wise is Griffey Sr and Mickey Rivers, that puts a big
I think the reason for the comparison is the shorter career length and the high average with relatively little power. It seems clear that Ichiro will far surpass Youngs, but it is interesting to note that they are quite similar at this point.
It also turns out that Youngs is quite similar to Fred Clarke, and we all know what a stud he is.
That must've been some sweet defense.
Mr. Pickles
Footballguy
Clearly the MVP voting was even worse back then. It's not great now, but my god that's ridiculous.I wish I could have seen the games, but I can't. All you can go from is the numbers, and while he had 65 errors, it was still the 3rd best fielding percentage for a SS, because he had so many more assists and PO than the other guys. I'm guessing his range was just insane.But, still, I can't explain away the batting numbers. Led the team in SB that year by a wide margin, played in the most games in the league, 2nd most ABs in the league (probably hit leadoff?) and was the leader of a team that won the NL by 10.5 games and swept the World Series.I had to go and read this, just to make sure he didn't mention Rabbit Maranville. Bill James is still cool in my book.Here's another interesting tidbit that I recently discovered...In a chat on the Freakonomics blog last year, Bill James was asked a slew of questions, and one of them was this: "Who are the ten players in the Hall of Fame that do not deserve to be there." One of them was Ross Youngs. It turns out that Youngs is the only HOF member that baseball-reference.com lists as a similar batter to Ichiro (#5).Yeah, I found this extremely interesting. When the best you can do comparision wise is Griffey Sr and Mickey Rivers, that puts a big
I think the reason for the comparison is the shorter career length and the high average with relatively little power. It seems clear that Ichiro will far surpass Youngs, but it is interesting to note that they are quite similar at this point.
It also turns out that Youngs is quite similar to Fred Clarke, and we all know what a stud he is.
That must've been some sweet defense.
One guy not mentioned (because he's not in the hof) is Pete Rose. Ichiro's numbers compare quite favorably to his, and without Rose's off field problems, I think it's safe to say he would be a hof'er.It is weird though when you see the comparable players comparison done by baseball reference and you see a bunch of mediocre major leaguers, Ralph Garr, Mickey Rivers, and a bunch of guys well before my time. I think Ichiro's more of an outlyer than anything. The only active player with a higher career batting average is Albert Pujols. Todd Helton is right behind Ichiro and Helton is another interesting candidate deserving of a thread of his own.
Mr. Pickles
Footballguy
Rose seems like a pretty good comparison, but interestingly, Rose's similar batters are all HOFers. Even the comparibles through various ages are a more impressive list: Carew, Molitor, Damon, etc.Rose went for extra bases at a higher rate than Ichiro, and had a very fine OPS+ during his most productive years. Ichiro's career OPS+ is 117. Rose's career OPS+ is 118 even with his watered down years where he was simply chasing Cobb's hit record until age 45. In his best season, Rose had a 158 OPS+ compared to Ichiro's 130 in his first MLB season. Rose also walked more and struck out less. They do have similar RC/G numbers, but Rose peaked at 8.4 to Ichiro's 7.9.I still can't quite put my finger on why Ichiro's similar batters aren't better players. Clearly amassing numbers matters for the career comparisons, and Ichiro will get there, but for the similar by age comparisons, the best Ichiro can muster in his best two seasons (at 27 and 30) are comparisons with Al Wingo and Bill Everitt. Granted, these comparative seasons weren't bad, but the entirety of his list is pretty ho-hum.guru_007 said:
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Bogart
Footballguy
Looking at his numbers, even for a "singles hitter", his number of extra base hits is pretty average at best. Especially someone with his speed. And he just doesn't draw the walks either. So his OBP, SLG and OPS numbers really come back down to earth compared to his AVG. I feel the comparision would be close to Michael Young and his streak of 200 hits a year. Great bullet point, but somehow has a bit of emptyness to it.
Mr. Pickles
Footballguy
The lack of extra base hits is mystifying, frankly. It kind of gives weight to the criticisms that Ichiro is an extreme slap hitter that legs out more than his share of infield hits. I know the guy can pummel the ball (I've seen it), but he's obviously not driving the ball like he could. His lack of triples for a speed merchant is also interesting. Triples are probably the best pure measure of speed. He's been near the league lead a few times, but has topped 10 triples only once. The lack of doubles is completely confusing to me. It's absurdly low. You'd think he'd have 35+ doubles easily, yet he seems to struggle to break 20.It's increasingly obvious that he's a very unique player in today's game, but even historically. As of now, he looks very similar to Jack Tobin who played part of his career in the Federal League. When that's one of your better comparisons, you know you're an odd duck.
Bogart
Footballguy
Everyone always has to mention that if he changed his game and dropped his average 30 points he could hit 25+ homers. How about droping it only 15 points and giving me 40+ doubles. I would be interested in how many times a year Ichiro is left stranded on base. Not saying that it would be his fault, but those slap singles with 2 outs and down by one don't mean a hill of beans. Drive the damn ball to the gap and use your speed to get into scoring position.
the moops
Footballguy
What if he uses his speed to then steal 2nd base? Isn't the result the same?
dparker713
Footballguy
He doesnt run enough to augment his offensive production enough to have the same result. And while he has a good percentage, you have to be extremely efficient to really add alot of value on the basepaths. Making an out is a really bad thing.
Mr. Pickles
Footballguy
That's something he's actually very good at. I guess this is due to his lack of walks and large number of plate appearances.
Hooper31
Footballguy
Came here to post a similar poll and opted to search. Was curious to hear other opinions after I noticed he will likely pass 2000 hits in the next few weeks.
FWIW here's his Japanese stats too. In his nine seasons in Japan, Ichiro had 1,278 hits, a .353 career batting average, and in addition to his hitting achievements, won seven Gold Glove Awards.
Should his Japanese stats count when considering him for the HOF?
FWIW here's his Japanese stats too. In his nine seasons in Japan, Ichiro had 1,278 hits, a .353 career batting average, and in addition to his hitting achievements, won seven Gold Glove Awards.
Should his Japanese stats count when considering him for the HOF?
David Yudkin
Footballguy
Of course not. Should minor league stats count? Should Sadaharu Oh be the home run king with his 868 home runs?
Koya
Footballguy
Should the Japanese stats count? No.Should it be considered that Ichiro essentially broke the mold as a true Japanese star that, while in his prime, moved to the MLB paving the way for future stars (and those who are younger) to do the same? without question.To look at Ichiro without the context of his entering the league late because he helped pave the way for others is to ignore a big aspect of his contributions to MLB.Now, without checking baseball reference, he passes the sniff test 100%. Great contact hitter and a tremendous fielder. No power, but his steals make up for that somewhat. Regardless, definately hall worthy - and more so considering the power numbers we all know were inflated bull#### anyway.
Bogart
Footballguy
DISCLAIMER: Any and all opinions from Koya may or may not be given while under the influence of at least one but no more than four natural or unnatural substances. Please take this under consideration when reading. Thanks and God Bless.
Eephus
Footballguy
It's officially called the National Baseball Hall of Fame
Koya
Footballguy
You all should know by now that said disclaimer does not pertain to weekdays before 7 (unless im out early).Next week is vacation, so ignore everything I say.
Sammy3469
Footballguy
well it is after 7 AM
David Yudkin
Footballguy
Tremendous Upside
Footballguy
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
Do you think Vinny Testaverde should be in the Pro Football Hall of Fame? He finished with 46,233 passing yards (6th all time) and 275 passing TDs (8th all time).I don't completely agree with this. The amazing ability to play a whole season year after year is a feat in itself. Anyone who can put in 20 seasons and post great career numbers deserves to be in the HOF, not only for their great numbers, but for their dedication to the game.
Eephus
Footballguy
If you include his Japanese stats, he has 46,233 passing yards (6th all time) and 275 passing TDs (8th all time).Do you think Vinny Testaverde should be in the Pro Football Hall of Fame? He finished with 46,233 passing yards (6th all time) and 275 passing TDs (8th all time).I don't completely agree with this. The amazing ability to play a whole season year after year is a feat in itself. Anyone who can put in 20 seasons and post great career numbers deserves to be in the HOF, not only for their great numbers, but for their dedication to the game.
Limp Ditka
Footballguy
If you include his Japanese stats, he has 46,233 passing yards (6th all time) and 275 passing TDs (8th all time).Do you think Vinny Testaverde should be in the Pro Football Hall of Fame? He finished with 46,233 passing yards (6th all time) and 275 passing TDs (8th all time).I don't completely agree with this. The amazing ability to play a whole season year after year is a feat in itself. Anyone who can put in 20 seasons and post great career numbers deserves to be in the HOF, not only for their great numbers, but for their dedication to the game.
Txns8
Footballguy
How many MVP's did Vinny earn in Japan?If you include his Japanese stats, he has 46,233 passing yards (6th all time) and 275 passing TDs (8th all time).Do you think Vinny Testaverde should be in the Pro Football Hall of Fame? He finished with 46,233 passing yards (6th all time) and 275 passing TDs (8th all time).I don't completely agree with this. The amazing ability to play a whole season year after year is a feat in itself. Anyone who can put in 20 seasons and post great career numbers deserves to be in the HOF, not only for their great numbers, but for their dedication to the game.
Hard to doubt that if he began his playing career in MLB that he would not have broken Roses' hits record.
Ichiro's best statistical season in Japan happened when he was 21. He would have been a 200 hits/year guy from the jump. He'd probably have about 3400+ hits right now. On his way to the hits record.
Lot of if's for sure. But the guy has always been a hitting machine. He would have premier stats in hits, runs and sb's. Not to mention a gold-glove outfielder.
Guy is a lock for the HOF.
Ichiro's best statistical season in Japan happened when he was 21. He would have been a 200 hits/year guy from the jump. He'd probably have about 3400+ hits right now. On his way to the hits record.
Lot of if's for sure. But the guy has always been a hitting machine. He would have premier stats in hits, runs and sb's. Not to mention a gold-glove outfielder.
Guy is a lock for the HOF.
ScottNorwood
Footballcutie
Easily HOF imo
Masked Vigilante
Footballguy
Stone cold lock.
