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IDP Leagues (1 Viewer)

Warhogs

Footballguy
I have just in the last couple of years gotten involved in IDP leagues and I only play in a couple so I am not sure how "normal" this is. It seems the leagues I find want to require starting 2RB,3WR and maybe even a flex meaning that you have as many or more positional players on the field as what a normal formation would have. Yet on defense the leagues I have found typically are asking for 2DL, 2LB, 2DB and a flex or two. It seems to me most of the time we have more DL, LB and DBs on the field.

This strikes me as a bit odd I guess and I am wondering if others see similar types of starting requirements and if people think the trend might be to expand the number of defensive starters? It seems to me IDPers seem to get devalued due to the smaller amount of required starters.

 
I personally enjoy IDP but think that it would become more interesting to go IDP if the starting requirements were to include more players. It seems that currently there are a few star players that may give a team a slight advantage but then everyone is lumped so closely together that it really does not matter. I'm not sure if expanding starting requirements could fix this but am curious why the leagues I find require less IDPers in a starting lineup.

Maybe this comes down to is there a trend to move to IDP and it may expand over time or maybe it is more of a current fad that will die out?

 
Hardcore FF players will always seek new challenges beyond typical redraft style.

IDP, Dynasty, Contracts, Auction, Salary Cap - and combos thereof.

However, only Auction / Salary Cap has a chance at mainstream due to many non-hardcare FF players.

The SP host the most devout players in FF during the offseason, but it isn't reflective of the masses. Millions play fantasy sports, but most don't have the time, energy or devotion to football to go towards these leagues.

My :thumbup:

 
This strikes me as a bit odd I guess and I am wondering if others see similar types of starting requirements and if people think the trend might be to expand the number of defensive starters? It seems to me IDPers seem to get devalued due to the smaller amount of required starters.
I agree with this and only play in IDP leagues with full IDP lineups:2 DE1 DT3 LB2 CB2 S1 Flex (usually DT/LB)
 
Usually there is more range in the top tiers of LB, DL, and DB.

Q. Why would you want to use more positions when the lower tier players score close together?

A. To add players with a potential to elevate to the upper tiers

As far as IDP difficulty for the masses, I think sights like Yahoo that give projected and actual points for IDP make it a lot easier for people to participate in IDP leagues (FBG LD/DD does this too.) How hard is it taking the highest projected, ranked, or currently scoring.

Also, some people like fantasy football because they played at some point in there lives. That is a lot of defensive players that might be interested in fantasy football.

 
Any time you are forced to focus on more than one aspect of the game, it's going to be more of a challenge. I play in both types of league, but would choose IDP hands down over team DEF/ST.

 
I'll always be an IDP apologist but I certainly understand those that prefer not to play in IDP (or other more complicated systems) because of the time commitment involved. IMO, all other reasons are bogus.

Most leagues are beginning to realize that you can value CBs and DTs in such a way as to provide good relative value to those positions. As others have said, defensive tiers tend to bunch because there are more DL, LB, or DBs on the field at any one time than their offensive counterparts. It doesn't make sense to start 3 WRs and only 2 LBs. There's no way you can get any meaningful separation of starting tiers like you have on offense if you're only requiring 24 starting linebackers because of how defensive football works.

IMO, the leagues that require fewer starting players either don't understand the above two points or have owners that aren't willing to put in the time commitment to flesh out the lower tiers on the IDP side of the ball.

IDP leagues have steadily increased in popularity over the past five years. The internet makes it very easy to track the stats involved (NFL.com gamebooks, FF websites, league hosting sites, etc) than it used to be. It was incredibly time consuming to track tackle stats, etc ten years ago and there was no such thing as a pass defended. Most leagues still start out slowly with IDP as a try out phase. As more folks find IDP enjoyable, the natural progression and trend is to want to do it right. So you'll see positions broken out instead of lumped and you'll see scoring systems that value players appropriately. Or you'll see the leagues drop IDPs altogether.

 
The IDP leagues I play in have lineups like this:

QB

WR

RB

TE

FLEX (RB/WR/TE)

FLEX (RB/WR/TE)

FLEX (RB/WR/TE)

K

D

D

D

The defensive player can play any position, so most rosters are LB heavy. Scoring is 1pt per solo tackle, 2pts per sack, 3pts for INT/fumble rec, 2pts per safety.

 
I completely agree, if you are going to do IDP you have to do it right. In my league with the way IDP's work, every position is just as valuable as the next. We start:

4 LB's

2 DT's

2 DE's

2 SS's

2 CB's

That is the only way to go.

 
I completely agree, if you are going to do IDP you have to do it right. In my league with the way IDP's work, every position is just as valuable as the next. We start:4 LB's2 DT's2 DE's2 SS's2 CB'sThat is the only way to go.
Good setup, but that one would require a LOT of work to do it right. I played in a ESPN league with a similar setup and couldn't keep up with all of those IDP's. I guess if I was in 1 or 2 leagues instead of 8, I could probably do a better job...
 
I does take a ton of time. I play in a year round full IDP league with a 53 man roster, practice squad, individual contracts and salary cap. You must field a full team from your roster every week, 11 men on offense and 11 men on defense. You can play different set ups too. ie. 3-4 D, 4-3 D, You can play a FB on offense etc. etc..... The league had an initial Veteran Draft and then has a rookie draft every year for the college players coming out. It's a 16 team league with 4 divisions of 4 teams.

 
I does take a ton of time. I play in a year round full IDP league with a 53 man roster, practice squad, individual contracts and salary cap. You must field a full team from your roster every week, 11 men on offense and 11 men on defense. You can play different set ups too. ie. 3-4 D, 4-3 D, You can play a FB on offense etc. etc..... The league had an initial Veteran Draft and then has a rookie draft every year for the college players coming out. It's a 16 team league with 4 divisions of 4 teams.
That sounds like fun! I could only do one league like that...
 
I completely agree, if you are going to do IDP you have to do it right. In my league with the way IDP's work, every position is just as valuable as the next. We start:4 LB's2 DT's2 DE's2 SS's2 CB'sThat is the only way to go.
Good setup, but that one would require a LOT of work to do it right. I played in a ESPN league with a similar setup and couldn't keep up with all of those IDP's. I guess if I was in 1 or 2 leagues instead of 8, I could probably do a better job...
We have been doing IDP "keeper" for 18 years. Oringinally, we split DB's into CB and S. But many players line up in both positions in nickel and dime. Same on the D line. Many players are DT's in base formations then move to DE on passing downs. So, we have this lineup:4 DB's3 LB's3 DL's1 DL/LB's(flex)ALL 11 start!!! That is the key. No room for slakers on your roster!!!We also start 11 on offense:2 QB's3 RB's4 WR's1 Flex WR/RB1 KWe do have a 4-man taxi, so you can stash an injured guy or prospect or bye week fill in.Can not imagine not having IDP.
 
This strikes me as a bit odd I guess and I am wondering if others see similar types of starting requirements and if people think the trend might be to expand the number of defensive starters? It seems to me IDPers seem to get devalued due to the smaller amount of required starters.
I agree with this and only play in IDP leagues with full IDP lineups:2 DE1 DT3 LB2 CB2 S1 Flex (usually DT/LB)
I agree with this also and except for the zealots league I have been for awhile now, all of my IDp leagues are have full starting requirements. Starting only 2 DL, 3LBs and 2 Dbs defeats the purpose of going to IDP.
 
I personally enjoy IDP but think that it would become more interesting to go IDP if the starting requirements were to include more players. It seems that currently there are a few star players that may give a team a slight advantage but then everyone is lumped so closely together that it really does not matter. I'm not sure if expanding starting requirements could fix this but am curious why the leagues I find require less IDPers in a starting lineup.
It really depends on your preferences. Unless you adjust your scoring very intelligently, having 10 or 11 defensive players on the field will completely swamp whatever offensive output you produce. I don't like that. As much as I love IDP, offensive players generally carry the most interest when you watch, require more matchup management, and well, it's more fun predicting catches and TDs, than tackles and passes defensed. I've certainly developed the bias that big defensive plays are almost totally random.We currently use 7 defensive players as a compromise (2 DL, 3LB, 2 DB). In my opinion that gives the best mix of defense to offense scoring, while still gaining knowledge about a lot of defensive players across the NFL. We went to the full defensive lineup for a couple of years but it was too much.Finally, if you are in a dynasty league (or even regular leagues), adding in more defensive players will have the effect of washing out the advantages of LT2 owners and the like. More players, means that as a % of total output each player is less important. So indirectly, if one is concerned with a team becoming too dominant, then massive IDP lineups might be a partial solution.
 
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It really depends on your preferences. Unless you adjust your scoring very intelligently, having 10 or 11 defensive players on the field will completely swamp whatever offensive output you produce. I don't like that. As much as I love IDP, offensive players generally carry the most interest when you watch, require more matchup management, and well, it's more fun predicting catches and TDs, than tackles and passes defensed. I've certainly developed the bias that big defensive plays are almost totally random.We currently use 7 defensive players as a compromise (2 DL, 3LB, 2 DB). In my opinion that gives the best mix of defense to offense scoring, while still gaining knowledge about a lot of defensive players across the NFL. We went to the full defensive lineup for a couple of years but it was too much.Finally, if you are in a dynasty league (or even regular leagues), adding in more defensive players will have the effect of washing out the advantages of LT2 owners and the like. More players, means that as a % of total output each player is less important. So indirectly, if one is concerned with a team becoming too dominant, then massive IDP lineups might be a partial solution.
Please read the following as coming from someone who is passionate about defensive football and IDP leagues not as me being argumentative. While I have a vested interest in promoting IDP leagues as a staffer, I still think it's important to emphasize and underline the "personal preferences" part of this argument.It's not difficult to tailor the scoring such that your WR3 equals your LB3 or DB3 (or CB2 if you prefer). I believe the "swamping offensive output" to be irrelevant. From a total points perspective, your raw defensive output will be greater than your raw offensive output if your scoring system is correct from a relative value standpoint. But, unless you want a stud QB or RB to far out-value any other player, the relative value is more important than raw numbers from a system perspective. So, if you're not interested in having IDPs with real value, then expanded leagues aren't for you. Also, if you like watching the QB drop back and throw or hand off the ball and find it more fun to predict targets than tackle opportunity, then IDPs probably aren't for you.I disagree that IDPs require less matchup management. Given the various defensive schemes and how offenses attack them, it's not uncommon for there to be clear matchup issues for an IDP in any given week. For example, a normally solid tackling SS had a very poor matchup against the Colts last season since many teams sat back in a Cover-2 shell to contain the Colt offense. Considering benching Kerry Rhodes and Chris Hope was a viable strategy if you had a solid alternative.I also disagree that big plays are random on the defensive side. They may happen much less often than on the offensive side, but I think most veteran IDPers would name the same group of players when asked to select a comp to a Randy Moss home run hitter -- Julius Peppers, Jared Allen, Ed Reed, Mike Brown, Champ Bailey, etc are all much better bets to make a big, big play than their counterparts.Personal preference is definitely the foundation of your last point. More defensive players doesn't necessarily have to negate the LT2 effect. If you lose relative advantage among your DBs, it's no different than losing relative advantage at TE or WR or QB. More positions makes that likely, but if you've managed your roster well, more positions makes it equally likely (and usually more likely) that you'll extend your relative advantage at the back end of your defensive starting lineup. The percentage of total output will certainly drop, but the relative advantage at each position is the key to winning (it's the basic tenet of VBD) whether there are two positions in question or ten.Again, not trying to be argumentative, just intending to point out to those new to IDP that the reason not to do IDP is because of time or interest not because of difficulty in setting up a system or managing a roster or making it less likely to win a title. It's my "personal preference" that IDP leagues make watching football much more fun as, if you weren't already, you're more likely to watch the whole game and not just the ball. If you've got the time and interest, IDP leagues do not affect the integrity of a fantasy football league when setup correctly.
 
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I play in both and IDP is much more fun and challenging .

one league starts 11 and you have your choice of D.

4-3

3-4

nickel

another starts 2 DL, 2 LB and 2 DB plus a flex.

both are more fun than team D, but starting 11 is a lot of fun.

 
I like IDP a lot better, but that might be because it's an area where you still have to do some work. On offense, you can print out 20 cheatsheets in an hour, pick one that looks good to you, and you're ready for your draft.

 
Its is really awesome to see so many people devoted to IDP as i am!! I have just recently started playing IDP in the last 3-4 years and i am hooked!! I will never play D/ST again.

The way i see it IDP is a way to put yourself above the rest of your competition. We can all draft D/ST rosters that will be competative. But take that same roster that was average and now add a great IDP roster to it and you may have yourself a chamionship.

IMO you also learn alot more about football as well. You learn about schemes and why certain teams do what they do.

I also think it makes watching the game that more enjoyable. How many of us have been watching a game we really dont have much interest in because we have a fantasy player playing in it??? We all have. So you watch when you player has the ball then you go to another game or whatever you do when they dont. With IDP i find myself watching the game more and maybe caring about the fantasy side of it a little less. Now i am not say i care less about FF as i did a few yers ago. But it has taught me to enjoy the game that much more!

 
Mark Kamenski said:
I personally enjoy IDP but think that it would become more interesting to go IDP if the starting requirements were to include more players. It seems that currently there are a few star players that may give a team a slight advantage but then everyone is lumped so closely together that it really does not matter. I'm not sure if expanding starting requirements could fix this but am curious why the leagues I find require less IDPers in a starting lineup.
It really depends on your preferences. Unless you adjust your scoring very intelligently, having 10 or 11 defensive players on the field will completely swamp whatever offensive output you produce. I don't like that. As much as I love IDP, offensive players generally carry the most interest when you watch, require more matchup management, and well, it's more fun predicting catches and TDs, than tackles and passes defensed. I've certainly developed the bias that big defensive plays are almost totally random.We currently use 7 defensive players as a compromise (2 DL, 3LB, 2 DB). In my opinion that gives the best mix of defense to offense scoring, while still gaining knowledge about a lot of defensive players across the NFL. We went to the full defensive lineup for a couple of years but it was too much.Finally, if you are in a dynasty league (or even regular leagues), adding in more defensive players will have the effect of washing out the advantages of LT2 owners and the like. More players, means that as a % of total output each player is less important. So indirectly, if one is concerned with a team becoming too dominant, then massive IDP lineups might be a partial solution.
By starting 11 on both sides and "balancing the ledger" (read-tweak the scoring over a few years), we have a very even balance of offense versus defense. You can win or lose a game with either side.As far as big plays, we have INT's and FR valued at 4 points with TD's 6 points. That gives the D many opportunities to hit the Homerun. The ultimate for a IDP in a single play is this:Sack - 3 points(4 with the tackle given now)FF - 2 ptsFR - 4 ptsTD - 6 pts16 points in one huge play!!! It only happens 5-6 times a year, though.Our league average score is about 145 with 70-75 on each side. The league leaders score around 160-165 with 80-85 on either side. Pretty well balanced, we think.
 
By starting 11 on both sides and "balancing the ledger" (read-tweak the scoring over a few years), we have a very even balance of offense versus defense. You can win or lose a game with either side.
This is precisely what I did not like from having 11 defensive players. Your offense could play great and you could still get KILLED by your opposition if your defense didn't show up.Re: another post.

It's not difficult to tailor the scoring such that your WR3 equals your LB3 or DB3 (or CB2 if you prefer). I believe the "swamping offensive output" to be irrelevant. From a total points perspective, your raw defensive output will be greater than your raw offensive output if your scoring system is correct from a relative value standpoint. But, unless you want a stud QB or RB to far out-value any other player, the relative value is more important than raw numbers from a system perspective.
I could be mistaken, but most leagues run with certain standardized point schemes. Now while one could determine a suitable scheme that would give all 11 defensive players the net effect of one team defense in a non-IDP league.. but it would take a lot of trial an error. My point is that, for many, it's not worth the effort and it's simpler just to hack down the number of players.

I disagree that IDPs require less matchup management. Given the various defensive schemes and how offenses attack them, it's not uncommon for there to be clear matchup issues for an IDP in any given week. For example, a normally solid tackling SS had a very poor matchup against the Colts last season since many teams sat back in a Cover-2 shell to contain the Colt offense. Considering benching Kerry Rhodes and Chris Hope was a viable strategy if you had a solid alternative.
I don't disagree with anything here except for the "less" in the first sentence. I do think it is less and to me it is far less interesting to think about. Then again, I preceive fantasy football to be luck more than anything else so it's not as if offensive matchup management is a science either.
I also disagree that big plays are random on the defensive side. They may happen much less often than on the offensive side, but I think most veteran IDPers would name the same group of players when asked to select a comp to a Randy Moss home run hitter -- Julius Peppers, Jared Allen, Ed Reed, Mike Brown, Champ Bailey, etc are all much better bets to make a big, big play than their counterparts.
This is an empirical question. But just the idea of me predicting Taylor having a sack, FF, FR, and TD all in one play is far more random than Owens grabbing a 45-yard TD pass.
Personal preference is definitely the foundation of your last point. More defensive players doesn't necessarily have to negate the LT2 effect. If you lose relative advantage among your DBs, it's no different than losing relative advantage at TE or WR or QB. More positions makes that likely, but if you've managed your roster well, more positions makes it equally likely (and usually more likely) that you'll extend your relative advantage at the back end of your defensive starting lineup. The percentage of total output will certainly drop, but the relative advantage at each position is the key to winning (it's the basic tenet of VBD) whether there are two positions in question or ten.
Reducing the weight of all players, reduces the importance of any one player. You may still have a relative advantage at a given position, but the advantage is becoming smaller relative to the random noise level.. and is thus washed away...
 
16 teams:

7 starting offense. Scoring from 50 to 100 total.

9 starting defense. Scoring 20 to 60 total.

12 teams add 1 WR (flex) abnd 1 LB to the mix.

The difference is .5 point tackles instead of 1 point tackles.

If you want the defense to be the emphasis, play it at 1 point.

If you want the offense to remain the emphasis but the defense to be vitaly important, stick with .5 tackles/assists.

If you try and lower the amount of IDPs (to like 6 -and- keep tackles at 1point) you ruin the IDPs draft/auction/trade value.

:goodposting:

 
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By starting 11 on both sides and "balancing the ledger" (read-tweak the scoring over a few years), we have a very even balance of offense versus defense. You can win or lose a game with either side.
This is precisely what I did not like from having 11 defensive players. Your offense could play great and you could still get KILLED by your opposition if your defense didn't show up.Re: another post.

It's not difficult to tailor the scoring such that your WR3 equals your LB3 or DB3 (or CB2 if you prefer). I believe the "swamping offensive output" to be irrelevant. From a total points perspective, your raw defensive output will be greater than your raw offensive output if your scoring system is correct from a relative value standpoint. But, unless you want a stud QB or RB to far out-value any other player, the relative value is more important than raw numbers from a system perspective.
I could be mistaken, but most leagues run with certain standardized point schemes. Now while one could determine a suitable scheme that would give all 11 defensive players the net effect of one team defense in a non-IDP league.. but it would take a lot of trial an error. My point is that, for many, it's not worth the effort and it's simpler just to hack down the number of players.

I disagree that IDPs require less matchup management. Given the various defensive schemes and how offenses attack them, it's not uncommon for there to be clear matchup issues for an IDP in any given week. For example, a normally solid tackling SS had a very poor matchup against the Colts last season since many teams sat back in a Cover-2 shell to contain the Colt offense. Considering benching Kerry Rhodes and Chris Hope was a viable strategy if you had a solid alternative.
I don't disagree with anything here except for the "less" in the first sentence. I do think it is less and to me it is far less interesting to think about. Then again, I preceive fantasy football to be luck more than anything else so it's not as if offensive matchup management is a science either.
I also disagree that big plays are random on the defensive side. They may happen much less often than on the offensive side, but I think most veteran IDPers would name the same group of players when asked to select a comp to a Randy Moss home run hitter -- Julius Peppers, Jared Allen, Ed Reed, Mike Brown, Champ Bailey, etc are all much better bets to make a big, big play than their counterparts.
This is an empirical question. But just the idea of me predicting Taylor having a sack, FF, FR, and TD all in one play is far more random than Owens grabbing a 45-yard TD pass.
Personal preference is definitely the foundation of your last point. More defensive players doesn't necessarily have to negate the LT2 effect. If you lose relative advantage among your DBs, it's no different than losing relative advantage at TE or WR or QB. More positions makes that likely, but if you've managed your roster well, more positions makes it equally likely (and usually more likely) that you'll extend your relative advantage at the back end of your defensive starting lineup. The percentage of total output will certainly drop, but the relative advantage at each position is the key to winning (it's the basic tenet of VBD) whether there are two positions in question or ten.
Reducing the weight of all players, reduces the importance of any one player. You may still have a relative advantage at a given position, but the advantage is becoming smaller relative to the random noise level.. and is thus washed away...
Thanks for the followup post.The second sentence I bolded in your reply is telling to me. If you perceive fantasy football to be more luck than anything else over a full season of play, then there's not much sense in arguing the point. Still, relative advantage, regardless of how many positions it's spread, is the key. If you're interested in reducing luck, increasing the number of areas you can earn a relative advantage is the way to do it. If you want the top five point getters in the league to drive the system, then you'll have to deal with luck unless you play in a total points league.

 
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