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If A-Rod doesn't pass Bonds... (1 Viewer)

Bogart

Footballguy
With all the talk of Bonds passing Aaron and then A-Rod passing Bonds, it could be really interesting if for some reason A-Rod doesn't pass Bonds (injury, burnout, gheyness). When you look at the current home run leaders, it could very well be A-Rod or nobody to pass Bonds.

The "contenders" to pass Bonds - Player (age) number of homers:

Sammy Sosa (38) 604 - Probably will be done before Bonds

Ken Griffey (37) 589 - Would have to hit 200 more homers, don't see it. Would love to see a run at 715 for him.

Frank Thomas (39) 505 - Too old

Alex Rodriguez (31) 500 - At his current pace, would hit 800 before the age of 40, but does he play that long?

Manny Ramirez (35) 488 - Would need another 8 years at his current pace, doubtful

Carlos Delgado (35) 424 - Same age as Manny, and two years behind, very doubtful

Chipper Jones (35) 374 - Now the dropoff gets crazy

Andruw Jones (30) 363 - Another 10 years at his pace, he is still 100 behind where Bonds should end up

Vladimir Guerrero (31) 356 - Long shot due to injury history

Shawn Green (34) 326 - Meh

Richie Sexson (32) 290 - A year older than A-Rod and 210 homers behind, puts A-Rod's numbers in to perspective

Albert Pujols (27) 274 - If he keeps current pace, would hit number 700 at age 40, if he really is 27. Probably best shot outside of A-Rod

Troy Glaus (30) 272 - Meh

Paul Konerko (31) 268 - See Glaus

Adam Dunn (27) 228 - With a few outstanding years and a staying on pace of his 40 HR a year, could get close.

Eric Chavez (29) 227 - Meh

Julio Franco (48) 173 - If he plays to 100, tell me he won't

Mark Teixeira (27) 156 - If he can't hit more than this in Texas, no way

Miguel Cabrera (24) 131 - Nice start

Ryan Howard (27) 112 - See Cabrera, but later in life

Justin Morneau (26) 107 - See Howard

David Wright (24) 86

I didn't include everyone, but I think it proves the point, that in this post-steroid era, the numbers just aren't there for anyone to make a real run at this record outside of A-Rod and maybe Pujols. And that will be a real shame.

 
If baseball returns somewhere close to what normal has been for the last 70 years, then it will be a LONG time... but someone will get that record eventually. Remember, when 300 HRs was a cause for celebration, 400 was almost guaranteed HoF unless your name was Kingman and 500 was hallowed ground.

I hate that those HR numbers are so diluted now.

 
Fielder or Howard are the only two I can even imagine being young enough now to have any kind of remote chance if A-Rod doesn't do it. And, even then...it's such an amazing number they'd have to eclipse, I think we're really grasping at straws after A-Rod.

 
Fielder or Howard are the only two I can even imagine being young enough now to have any kind of remote chance if A-Rod doesn't do it. And, even then...it's such an amazing number they'd have to eclipse, I think we're really grasping at straws after A-Rod.
Howard got too late a start. No chance.
 
Sammy Sosa (38) 604 - Probably will be done before Bonds

Why? Bonds had his best season at 38...oh I forgot they are testing now.

 
The real bummer on this list for me is Griffey. The guy should have another 120 HRs over his career, giving him 710 or so. That would make Bonds all the less relevant. Griffey would pass him almost as soon as Bonds hung up his cleats and needles.

 
The real bummer on this list for me is Griffey. The guy should have another 120 HRs over his career, giving him 710 or so. That would make Bonds all the less relevant. Griffey would pass him almost as soon as Bonds hung up his cleats and needles.
That is true..too bad he missed so many games.Griffey misses Seattle..
 
Koya said:
If baseball returns somewhere close to what normal has been for the last 70 years, then it will be a LONG time... but someone will get that record eventually. Remember, when 300 HRs was a cause for celebration, 400 was almost guaranteed HoF unless your name was Kingman and 500 was hallowed ground.I hate that those HR numbers are so diluted now.
I just love that the numbers are maybe meaning something again now. Bonds won't take away for Griff or ARod or Pujols anymore than he will take away from Hammering Hank.
 
Pujols is not getting enough love in this thread. He's no lock (or even a favorite), but aside from ARod he's the most worthy of discussion. Let's break it down:

He's currently at 274, by my rest-of-season projections, he should hit about 12 more this year. That makes 286. His home run totals the last 5 years would then be: 43, 46, 41, 49, 36. This is an average of 43 per year which I think is a not-unreasonable yearly projection for him going forward. So, 755-286 = 469 to get to Ruth. 469 divided by 43/year = 11 years which would make Pujols just 38.

This doesn't even account for the fact that a lot of these guys see their power numbers increasing in their mid-30s. So, yeah, he's got a great shot at it. The catch is he has to both stay healthy and stay this good for a long, long time; that's the hard part.

FWIW, Bill James gives ARod a 31% chance and Pujols a 22% chance to hit 756 in their careers. Next closest is Andruw Jones with a 16% chance.

 
I read that Braun was the fastest to 20 since Pujols. It's WAAAAYYYYY out there, but there are people with a shot. I think Braun is 24, so it is a late start. He most likely won't spend his entire career batting in front of a Fielder either.

 
Here is a good article on this issue by Nate Silver.

By Nate Silver, BaseballProspectus.com

Barry Bonds haters are comforting themselves with the notion that Bonds' hold on the home-run record could be short-lived. Alex Rodriguez is more than 100 home runs ahead of Bonds' pace at the same age, and if he doesn't break the record, there are a number of other candidates such as Albert Pujols waiting in line for their shot at the piñata.

For that matter, is it too soon to count out Ken Griffey Jr.? How about Sammy Sosa? For an answer, we turn to a modified version of Baseball Prospectus' PECOTA projection system.

PECOTA uses comparable players to forecast a player's future. In other words, each potential comparable represents a positive or negative precedent. If Hank Aaron appears on a player's comp list -- someone who was productive well into his early 40s -- that will increase the model's estimate of that player's likelihood of challenging the record. If he gets someone like Eddie Mathews instead, a great player early in his career but who hit just three home runs after age 35, that will harm his projection.

For the purposes of this exercise, we estimated Bonds' final career total to be 782 home runs (see note below for more on the methodology). So here are our 13 contestants, all with significant home run credentials, ranked in inverse order of PECOTA's estimate of their likelihood of challenging Aaron and Bonds.

Thanks for Playing, but No Record for You

13. Vladimir Guerrero

Projected Career Total: 495

Chances of Hitting 500 HR: 41.6%

... 600 HR: 9.6%

... 700 HR: none

Top Comparables: Juan Gonzalez, George Scott, Joe Torre, Dave Winfield, George Hendrick.

Vlad is a hard player to characterize -- his combination of raw power and a low strikeout rate is rather unusual in today's game -- and I'm not entirely certain that the PECOTA comparables do him justice. Nevertheless, he's topped 40 home runs in a season just twice, and his propensity to the occasional injury doesn't help him. At 31, there's just too much ground to make up for the Home Run Derby champ.

12. Frank Thomas

Projected Career Total: 573

Chances of Hitting 600 HR: 22.2%

... 700 HR: none

Top Comparables: Darrell Evans, Rafael Palmeiro, Mike Schmidt, Willie McCovey, Fred McGriff.

At 39, Thomas is the oldest player on this list and therefore the easiest to project; the fewer years a player has left, the narrower his range of potential outcomes, and vice versa. It's fairly impressive that PECOTA thinks Big Hurt might have another 100 home runs left in his bat, but 700 and all numbers north are out of the question.

11. Jim Thome

Projected Career Total: 586

Chances of Hitting 500 HR: 100%

... 600 HR: 38.2%

... 700 HR: 6.8%

... 755 HR: none

Top Comparables: Thomas, McCovey, Evans, Willie Stargell, Ellis Burks.

Thome's career slugging percentage of .564 is a hair better than that of Aaron (.555) or Mickey Mantle (.557), but he's simply missed too much time due to injury, something which isn't likely to abate as he ages (he turns 37 in August). A healthy 2005 and he'd have had a fighting chance at Aaron, though probably not Bonds.

10. Sammy Sosa

Projected Career Total: 647

Chances of Hitting 700 HR: 8.8%

... 755 HR: none

Top Comparables: Tony Perez, Ruben Sierra, Gary Gaetti, Ernie Banks, Gil Hodges.

PECOTA was not impressed with the Rangers' signing of Sosa before the season and it hasn't really changed its tune -- Sosa's comparables are players that hung on too long. Sosa retains above-average power but is costing his club in every other department; he might not run out of time so much as he runs out of people willing to employ him.

The Pretenders

9. Ken Griffey Jr.

Projected Career Total: 648

Chances of Hitting 600: 95.6%

... 700 HR: 11.4%

... 755 HR: 0.5%

... 782 HR: none

Top Comparables: Dave Parker, Andre Dawson, Eddie Murray, Fred Lynn, McGriff.

Griffey has rehabilitated his image as one of the all-time greats with a fine season, but he hasn't hit 40 home runs in a season since 2000, and he'd need several such seasons to make a serious run at Bonds or Aaron. Perhaps my least favorite question is whether Griffey, now 37, would pose a more serious threat at the record if he'd never been injured. Although the answer to that question is obviously "yes," you can construct a similar contingency for just about any player in history. How many more home runs would Babe Ruth have hit if the Red Sox hadn't fiddled around with him as a pitcher? How many longballs have the swirling winds of San Francisco robbed from Bonds? Would everyone be chasing Josh Gibson if baseball had integrated sooner?

8. Ryan Howard

Projected Career Total: 343

Chances of Hitting 500 HR: 16.4%

... 600 HR: 6.9%

... 700 HR: 0.8%

... 755 HR: 0.8%

... 782 HR: 0.8%

... 800 HR: 0.8%

... 900 HR: none

Top Comparables: Travis Hafner, Jim Gentile, Mike Epstein, Cecil Fielder, Mo Vaughn.

Howard is the guy you want up there if your life depends on getting a home run in the next at-bat -- unless the opposing pitcher is a lefty. But he's doomed by the late start to his big league career, and players who are this big and cumbersome (think Vaughn) tend not to age well into their 30s -- the late-starting Howard is already 27. Howard does have one or two comps that are going berserk for him, giving him some trivial chance of challenging the record, but we'd have to be talking about something unprecedented like his averaging 50 home runs per year over his next 10 seasons.

7. Andruw Jones

Projected Career Total: 523

Chances of Hitting 500: 51.5%

... 600 HR: 20.2%

... 700 HR: 3.0%

... 755 HR: 1.2%

... 782 HR: 0.5%

... 800 HR: none

Top Comparables: Griffey Jr., Sosa, Johnny Bench, Dale Murphy, Tom Brunansky.

Jones was a serious sleeper candidate for 755 heading into the year, having cracked the big league lineup as a teenager and staying healthy ever since. But look what's happened now ... not only does he suffer the indignity of drawing Brunansky as a comparable, but we also have the precedent of Murphy, another once-great Braves center fielder who fell off a cliff in his early 30s. That's not to say that Jones, 30, is done, but the record chase does not permit much margin for error.

6. Miguel Cabrera

Projected Career Total: 478

Chances of Hitting 500: 34.2%

... 600 HR: 19.7%

... 700 HR: 13.2%

... 755 HR: 1.8%

... 782 HR: 1.8%

... 800 HR: 1.8%

... 900 HR: none

Top Comparables: Ron Santo, Murray, Alex Rodriguez, Del Ennis, Frank Robinson.

Cabrera's comparables tell an interesting story: He could be an early-peak guy like Ennis, a merely good player like Santo, a slow-and-steady force along the lines of Murray, or an all-time great like A-Rod or Robinson. The longball isn't Cabrera's only strength -- he nearly won the NL batting title last season -- but only about two dozen players in history had more home runs at a comparable age.

5. Manny Ramirez

Projected Career Total: 595

Chances of Hitting 500: 97.1%

... 600 HR: 40.7%

... 700 HR: 6.3%

... 755 HR: 2.1%

... 782 HR: 2.1%

... 800 HR: 1.4%

... 900 HR: none

Top Comparables: Robinson, Sosa, Mantle, Rafael Palmeiro, Gary Sheffield.

I was mildly surprised to see Manny here, but he's always been a player who manages to be both over-hyped and overlooked at the same time. For record-chasing purposes, he would actually be helped by moving out of Boston. Although the Green Monster turns routine flyballs into doubles, the problem is that it does the same thing with potential home runs.

4. Adam Dunn

Projected Career Total: 493

Chances of Hitting 500: 43.2%

... 600 HR: 26.0%

... 700 HR: 7.9%

... 755 HR: 2.6%

... 782 HR: 2.6%

... 800 HR: 1.2%

... 900 HR: none

Top Comparables: Troy Glaus, Mark McGwire, John Mayberry, Jose Canseco, Harmon Killebrew.

Depending on who you talk to, Dunn is either one of the most overrated or the most underrated players in the game. What's more certain is he's surprisingly well positioned to make a run at the record books. Dunn broke into the big leagues relatively early, he's hit for power in good times and bad, and he's stayed healthy, playing in all but seven of his team's games in the past four seasons. One disadvantage is he'll probably be hitting about .210 by the time he hits his early 30s. He could have trouble finding a sympathetic GM at that stage, especially if Billy Beane has moved on to soccer or NASCAR.

The Contenders

3. Prince Fielder

Projected Career Total: 489

Chances of Hitting 500: 45.2%

... 600 HR: 20.4%

... 700 HR: 7.9%

... 755 HR: 6.7%

... 782 HR: 5.6%

... 800 HR: 5.6%

... 900 HR: 5.2%

Top Comparables: Boog Powell, Mayberry, Canseco, Kent Hrbek, Eric Chavez.

He might be the best pure power hitter to come along since McGwire. Prince's comparables aren't terrifically flattering, and there's certainly the chance that by the time he turns 32, he's hung up his spikes and opened up Prince's Peach Pit out in the Miller Park netherworld. Nevertheless, the math is compelling: Fielder projects to become the youngest player ever to hit 50 home runs in a season.

2. Albert Pujols

Projected Career Total: 565

Chances of Hitting 500: 62.0%

... 600 HR: 40.9%

... 700 HR: 14.6%

... 755 HR: 6.9%

... 782 HR: 5.0%

... 800 HR: 5.0%

... 900 HR: 0.3%

Top Comparables: Murray, Orlando Cepeda, Robinson, Greg Luzinski, Jack Clark.

A year ago, A-Rod and Pujols would have been about tied in their likelihood of passing Aaron. But our model is very sensitive to any change in performance levels. It remains unclear whether there's anything wrong with Pujols, who is having a down year by his standards, but projecting him as a 35 HR/year guy instead of a 40 HR/year guy or a 45 HR/year guy makes a huge impact since that difference gets multiplied out over many seasons.

The Front-Runner

1. Alex Rodriguez

Projected Career Total: 731

Chances of Hitting 500: 100%

... 600 HR: 85.6%

... 700 HR: 60.7%

... 755 HR: 46.1%

... 782 HR: 29.6%

... 800 HR: 27.5%

... 900 HR: 9.8%

Top Comparables: Robinson, George Brett, Willie Mays, Bonds, Aaron.

You couldn't do much better in terms of comparables if your goal is to break the all-time record. Nevertheless, we have A-Rod as even-money at best to pass Aaron's mark, and a decided underdog to surpass Bonds' eventual total. What gives? Think about all the things that have to go right for a player to hit 755 (or 782) lifetime home runs. He has to stay healthy. He has to resist the temptation of early retirement, even if he already has several lifetime's worth of money in the bank. He has to avoid any sudden declines in performance. He has to not only stay at the top of his game, but keep the particular skill of power hitting intact.

Rodriguez could "devolve" into being Brett, and that still wouldn't be enough momentum to get him past Bonds and Aaron. It all sounds so easy -- if A-Rod heads into 2008 with about 520 lifetime home runs, then all he has to do is average around 30 home runs per season through age 40 to claim the record from Bonds. But remember when everyone assumed that McGwire -- or Sosa, or Griffey -- would challenge the record?

Remember 10 months ago, when many assumed Rodriguez's best days were behind him? A-Rod's right on pace, but he's too far from the finish line to be conceding any records to him; it's inherently dangerous to be predicting that someone will do something that nobody else in history has done. We might have to deal with this Barry guy for longer than you'd think.

 

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