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IF Holmgren coaches Seattle to a SB win, does he (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter KCC
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Don Quixote
Footballguy
Puts him in the Hall of Fame. "Greatest ever" probably depends on how broad your definition is. If he wins, I'd probably put him somewhere around the 10th greatest in the Super Bowl era.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
I Dunno, Im starting to think it was more his teaching and mentoring and game planning that made Favre what he was. Instead of Favre making Holmgren. Holmgren pretty much had total control until this past off-season to mold that Seattle team and they are the best in the NFC.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
I'd say there are still lots of things to get on for Holmgren haters.This year's team...They went 2-2 against teams with winning records. They just beat up on the scrubs.They beat the 6 and the 5 seed to get to the SB. If they win, one could still argue that they just beat another 6 seed (although I don't think that's a very good argument). It would be pretty amazing to see a team win a SB without beating a single division winner in the post-season.
Boston
Footballguy
One of the big subplots of this game is that the winning coach gets a serious boost to his legacy. If Cowher wins it washes away the one knock some have against him, that he can't win the big one. Everyone that is sane knows he's a big time coach so that's not an issue. It's kind of like Elway or Ray Bourque adding that title to a stellar career and not leaving any loose ends. If Holmgren wins it really bumps him up because he will have won in two cities and will have a title without Favre. After Green Bay he was starting to lose some luster but right now his rep is bouncing back in a big way and will only be more solidified with another ring.As for Holmgren being one of the best ever I would say he's an excellent coach but has to do a little more to be mentioned with the truly elite.
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Shermanator
Footballguy
Building two seperate superbowl teams from the ground up is an incredible acomplishment that only a few other coaches have done. Homgren should be compared to Bill Parcells RIGHT NOW, because they are virtually equal.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
I also think Holmgren's legacy has been hurt by coaching in two of the smallest markets in the NFL. Generally a great offensive coach that's had success with multiple teams AND has a fantastic coaching tree would have a much stronger reputation. If he had coached the Giants and the 49ers, I think things would be different.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
This SOS crap is getting old. All Holmgren did was find a way to beat nearly every team that came before him, including two playoff teams that had 1 and 2 playoff wins under their belt. And should they go on to win in Detroit he'll beat the best team in the AFC, so who cares what he did in the rest of the season. You beat the best, you ARE the best. If the 2-4 seeds couldn't win, and he beats the victors, then they truly deserve the #1 title. It's simple, leave the "haven't played anyone" crap at home. No one wins the superbowl who doesn't deserve it.As for Holmgren's accolades. He (with a win) certainly deserves to be named one of the greatest SB coaches of all time with the accomplishment of 2 titles with 2 different teams. But overall, I don't think he breaks the top ten due to many mediocre regular seasons.
Deranged Hermit
Not cool & Pissed
You have to be joking. I have a hard time putting him in the top 5 of coaches coaching NOW, much less best of all time.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
If he wins he'll be the only coach in NFL history to WIN Super Bowls with two different teams. That's one phenomenal accomplishment. For all the crap he's gotten about not being able to win in Seattle, he would have something that no coach, including Bill Parcells [four teams and counting] and Don Shula [went to bowls with two teams but only won with Miami] could accomplish despite trying.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
Not to mention **** Vermeil and Jon Gruden - two other HCs to win a SB with one team and playoff games with another.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
He could be miles behind Bill Belichick and still be a) one of the very best in the game, and b) a Hall of Famer.
GRIDIRON ASSASSIN
Footballguy
I think it puts him in the team picture, but he's only won TWO playoff games with the Seahawks, so let's not be putting him in the Hall of Fame just yet.**** Vermeil go the Eagles to the Super Bowl and won with the Rams - so if Holmgren loses, that's who he should be compared to.
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Kleck
Footballguy
I don't buy that. I don't think I would raise or lower my evaluation of a coach based on the outcome of just one game, but that's just me. I understand how others might. Reminds me of a conversation Dean Smith had with Roy Williams just before Smith won his first national title. Williams mentioned to Smith something about entering a new echelon of coaches and history. Smith replied that no matter what happens in this one game he was still the same coach. I might have some of the details in that story wrong, but I tend to agree with the point being made.
MarshallRob
Footballguy
To be considered among the greatest ever, a coach probably has to do at least one of the following: (1) win an extraordinary number of games (Shula, Halas); (2) win a lot of titles (Lombardi, Lambeau); or (3) come up with innovations that change the way the game is played (Brown, Landry, Walsh). The categories aren't mutually exclusive of course but I don't see any of them applying to Holmgren. Holmgren is trying to match Weeb Eubank's accomplishment of titles with more than one team. Eubank's a Hall of Fame coach but you don't really hear people talking about him as the greatest ever.
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well, the thread was "best ever" and you replied with "in the game" which makes me think "currently" and not "all time".Well either way it's all opinion, we just disagree I guess.
The guy has done nothing to impress me and only wins when he has an MVP or MVP type player. For whatever reason my mind gives credit to the player and not the walrus.
A fair counter argument would be to point out that he draws up the plays for the player and how much he practices etc (coaches him) To me though when a guy has coached as many years as he has and he only wins with an MVP it's like he rides the player's coattails.
I don't feel Walsh rode Montana's coattails or Parcells rode LTs so....go figure, to each his own I guess.
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mad sweeney
Footballguy
One of the best SB coaches of all time due to his SB wins (hopefully) but as a HC overall his rating isn't as high. 2 different criteria, SB coaching and overall coaching.
⚡DEADHEAD⚡
Footballguy
Variables that should be included into the equation are the free agency era and the salary cap. Given the challenges they present, I think Holmgren has done an excellent job and deserves being discussed among the top coaches in history and is on a short list of top coaches in this era.
jeff_eaglz
Moderator
I'd agree with Rob.As for the argument that Holmgren is special because should he win he would accomplish a SB victory with two different franchises, that devalues coaches that put together complete teams year over year with the same club. Chuck Noll won 4 of 6 SBs with Pittsburgh - is that less valuable since he didn't change teams? Bill Walsh? Bill Belichick? Vince Lombardi?
Holmgren's accomplishment would be a feather in his cap and significant to his career - but he'd have to do a lot more to be considered elite even among his current peers.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
I think your argument is a bit flawed. Guys like Lombardi, Walsh and Knoll had continuity and many of the same players on all of their championship teams. I mean, were the 67 Packers that much different than the 66 team?
Sidewinder16
Footballguy
Like what, for example?He has a 61.6% regular season win percentage over his 14 year career (similar to Bud Grant, better than Marv Levy). If this hypothetical plays out he'll have a 12-8 postseason record with 2 Super Bowl wins in 3 appearances. The teams he has head coached have been top 7 in total points 8 times and top 10 in yards 9 times. He's gone to the playoffs in 10 of his 14 seasons. He's only had 2 losing seasons (with his worst record being 6-10), both with Seattle. And he probably has a lot of NFL coaching left to do.
I'd say he's definitely Hall-worthy with a SB win this year, which, IMO, makes him one of the greatest ever.
Sam Quentin
Footballguy
If not for the "tuck rule" would we be saying this about Jon Gruden?
Sam Quentin
Footballguy
I disagreeI thought Denver would win that game because they were able to run the ball, and they did.
The only reason GB was favored was because nobody believed an AFC team would win the SB.
Iwannabeacowboybaby!
Footballguy
No, he doesn't . He'll belong in the thread that talks about the greatest coaches that are coaching today.Like Bill Parcells, Joe Gibbs, Bill Bellicheck, and guys like that who have won multiple Super Bowls.
Sidewinder16
Footballguy
He doesn't what?Are Parcells, Gibbs and Belichick not some of the greatest ever in your eyes?
msommer
Footballguy
It would give him two more rings than Cowher. Not sure that means greatest ever.Say Holmgren doesn't and Jon Gruden leaves Tampa to coach some other team to a SB win. Does that make him greatest ever?What if Holmgren does and then Gruden or Shanahan does the same?Are they then equally great and better than all others or is Holmgren better for having done it before?These are questions that I couldn't care less about
dgreen
Footballguy
I wouldn't put him up there with Lombardi, Gibbs, Shula, Landry, Walsh, and probably a couple others. But, I'd put him in the next group with guys like Parcells and Shanahan. Then again, I'd already put him in that group, so I guess you could say I'd put him at the top of that group.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
No. It seems like you are assuming Oakland would have gone on to win the Super Bowl had they won that game and I seriously doubt they would have beaten Pittsburgh and St. Louis like New England did.
That is true, but Holmgren was still outcoached badly in Super Bowl 32 by Mike Shanahan.
Shanahan is an offensive genius that people copy. While he "grew up" in the WCO he's also taken bits of other offenses and made them special. You might recall he regularly had guys scouting Spurrier's O and he made those plays work while Spurrier couldn't. He's been a power running team and has been able to shift to a passing team "like that".
His lineman's blocking angles is a technique taken from Landry(?) I remember the story of some coach scouting another team from a nearby hotel room but not sure if it was Landry or not. Now many teams take pictures "from the sky" to see what angles their linemen are blocking at.
In FF we all know that all he has to do is plug a new RB into his O and they're good to go.
To me, Holmgren's offense is vanilla when compared to Shanny's and I can't think of anything that's copied by other teams in this copycat league.
FWIW Every now and again, Jay Glazer does a poll of NFL coaches and GMs asking whom is the best coach. I can't recall anyone other than Shanny or BB winning his poll.
The time it's taken Holmgren to win waters down the win with two different teams shpeal for me. Parcells goes to a new team, plugs in his system and then they're in the playoffs. He goes to a loser and within a few years they're in the playoffs and shortly after considerred one of the better teams and amidst Supe talk. Holmgren's been in Seattle a long time. FWIW if he goes to another team and wins in oh 5 years, then I'll take my hat off to him.
IMO one reason he doesn't win fast enough(and 5 or so years isn't too fast to ask for) is his player evaluations stink. A couple examples-I've been playing FF long enough to remember him backing both Kitna and Brock Huard before Hasselbeck. IIRC He got Hass out of frustration, frustration with his own evaluations. For years I'd wonder why he doesn't give Shaun more carries. Now that he is, doesn't he look foolish for not doing that earlier in Shaun's career? IIRC He inheritted a terrific DL when he went to Seattle. While he made that work in GB, I didn't feel he did in Seattle. Many times I watched them and thought Chad Brown looked lonely out there on D. I think he took too long to get rid of Galloway .........etc
Iwannabeacowboybaby!
Footballguy
How many are great..........we're watering them down. Yeah, those guys are great.How about these guys........Vince Lombardi, Paul Brown, Tom Landry, Chuck Knoll, Don Shula, Bill Walsh, Bud Grant, Hank Stram, and the countless other coaches.
We get caught up in the greatest ever conversations because Player A or in this case a coach is current.
Whether it's Mike Tyson, Kobe Bryant or whoever we as a society start talking about greatest ever way to early.
So I'm saying NO. NO, to the fact that Holmgren is in the Greatest ever category of coaches.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Of course, that had something to do with it, but the NFC's dominance over the AFC at the time combined with Denver's past Super Bowl failures was the main reason the line was so high. Plus, back then, Super Bowl blowouts were the norm.I suppose the fact that GB was 13-3 in the regular season had nothing to do with the Packers being favored? Or the fact that Favre had one of his best seasons? Or the fact that the Packers had two receivers with over 1,000 yards that season?
Fla\/\/ed
Footballguy
I agree....I was laughing at his comment that "the ONLY reason GB was favored was because nobody believed an AFC team would win the SB."Of course, that had something to do with it, but the NFC's dominance over the AFC at the time combined with Denver's past Super Bowl failures was the main reason the line was so high. Plus, back then, Super Bowl blowouts were the norm.
CapnJB
Footballguy
The 67 Packers only won because they had a cake schedule! They played 11 of 14 games agaist teams at .500 or below and were 1-2 against teams that were better than .500Surely you know that the schedule makers determined the winner of SuperBowl II. It had nothing to do with the coaching or players.
Koya
Footballguy
GREATEST EVER???What the heck was happening over the last half decade?Now, I will say this - with a SB win, Holmgren cements a place in the hall and as a very good and arguably great coach. He would be the only coach to have won a SB with two seperate teams (Im pretty sure of this at least).However, I can not put him on par with the true legends. I wouldnt say he is the best coach in the NFL right now. This time last year and people were wondering how long he would last before getting fired.That said, his accomplishments this year took what could have been a career with an early peak and put a whole new light on it - and I have to admit that my judgement of Holmgren is considerably better now than before.
1) Kitna was on the roster when Holmgren was hired. His other options were John Friesz and Glenn Foley. In his first season Kitna actually produced pretty well ~3300 Yards and 23 TDs.2) He never "backed" Huard. He was on the roster for two seasons and had a total of 103 passing attempts.
3) Shaun Alexander has been in the top 10 in rushes every year under Holmgren (with the exception of his rookie year when Watters was the main guy).
4) Seattle was 28th in the league in total defense the year before Holmgren became the coach. Hardly terrific.
5) Galloway played one season for Holmgren and was then traded for two first round draft picks.
You don't like Holmgren and that is fine but most of your arguements don't make any sense.
Deranged Hermit
Not cool & Pissed
I realize it's a great accomplishment, but the title of this thread asks if he'll be an all time great. I replied I didn't think he was even in the top 5 of coaches right now. I'd gladly take Belichik, Parcells, Gibbs, Gruden, Reid, Shanahan, and Vermeil (although he just retired) before I even think of Holmgren. We go all time and it's even more laughable.We're talking about a guy who by all rights SHOULD have been fired two years ago and was stripped of his GM job because he was so bad at it. He rode Favre's coat-tails and he still blew the SB against Denver in which he was favored by double digits. Like I said, he's a very good coach, but not all-time great.
Sidewinder16
Footballguy
Fair enough.I think we're encountering a lot of this:
"Greatest ever" was not originally defined for the discussion so we have everyone debating from different starting points.Personally I would define "one of the greatest ever" as being in the Hall of Fame. A SB win here just about assures Holmgren of a bust in Canton. There is obviously an ability to further rank those in the Hall on a "greatest" scale. For the record, if Holmgren does get in, he would almost certainly be in the bottom quarter of my Hall of Fame coaches rankings.
1-never said Kitna didn't produce well under him.2-he did too back Huard
http://archive.profootballweekly.com/conte...aily_080299.asp
for more links
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=huard+holmgren
3-How many games before 2004(when he just missed leading the NFL in rushing) did Shaun have less than 15 carries in?
http://www.profootballreference.com/games/AlexSh00.htm
4-never said their total D was great just that if I recalled correctly he inheritted a terrific DL
5-apparently I'm wrong about Galloway
have a nice day
