If Peyton Manning retired today, (1 Viewer)

[Ghost Rider]

Fair or not, until he wins (or at least makes it to) a Super Bowl, that will always be a black mark against him. Unlike Marino, Fouts, Elway (in the 80's), etc., Manning has had teams good enough to win it all. He has always had a running game and had a very good defense last year and still could not get it done. I am not saying winning it all is his sole responsibility, but QB's are often ultimately judged by their postseason success or lack thereof and despite his tremendous numbers through eight seasons, he has too many postseason failures so far and no Super Bowl wins or appearances.

If he retired today, no way in hell would he be ranked alongside the best QB's ever and I would be hard-pressed to put him in the second tier of QB's.

 

[Hear-the-Footsteps]

If Peyton Manning retired today,, what would his legacy be?

Same as A-Rod's...great regular season guy, w/ great #s, and the kind of guy every GM thinks he wants...

BUT can't get it done when it is most important and there is the most pressure (ie, PLAYOFFS).

 

[blake]

good thread, and i'd also be curious to see the results if this were a poll.

 

[Joe Bryant]

If Peyton Manning retired today,, what would his legacy be?

Same as A-Rod's...great regular season guy, w/ great #s, and the kind of guy every GM thinks he wants...

BUT can't get it done when it is most important and there is the most pressure (ie, PLAYOFFS).

I can see this. Until he wins a Super Bowl, he'll be dogged by that. Plus, he's only got 8 years in. So he'd be like half a Marino if he hung them up now.J

 

[Prime]

Obviously he didn't have teams good enough to win the Super Bowl, or they would have won it.

Stop riding this dude. It's the same thing as Kobe Bryant. For whatever reason, the meek of the Earth hate the guy for no reason. He's a stud QB. Super Bowls throphies aren't exactly growing on trees.

If he retired today, he would still be one of the greatest QB's to ever suit up. He wouldn't be a winner or a loser, unless you asked all the morons who hate just to hate.

 

[djcolts]

He's at a low point in his career in terms of image. It is really bad when they say that Katharine McPhee is the Peyton Manning of American Idol (in terms of coming up small in crunch time).

Luckily, people like a redemption story (even if they have qualms about the person itself) and he does have time to redeem himself, so it really doesn't matter what his legacy is if he retires today because he isn't retiring today.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Obviously he didn't have teams good enough to win the Super Bowl, or they would have won it.

Stop riding this dude. It's the same thing as Kobe Bryant. For whatever reason, the meek of the Earth hate the guy for no reason. He's a stud QB. Super Bowls throphies aren't exactly growing on trees.

If he retired today, he would still be one of the greatest QB's to ever suit up. He wouldn't be a winner or a loser, unless you asked all the morons who hate just to hate.

I do not hate or love Manning. I am rather indifferent towards him. But facts are facts, he has not gotten it done in the playoffs. And how can you say he did not have teams good enough to win the Super Bowl? Have you forgotten about last season already? The '05 Colts had a top offense (2nd in points and 3rd in yards gained) and an upper echolon defense (2nd in points allowed and 11th in yards allowed), not to mention being 3rd in the NFL in turnover ratio (+11). He had the team to win it last year, no doubt about it.

 

[Rounders]

choker

 

[FTRWRTR]

Obviously he didn't have teams good enough to win the Super Bowl, or they would have won it.

I have to disagree because Manning being a great passer but not being able to win the BIG games goes back to college. With a team stocked full of future NFLer's all he could manage was a 10 -2 record his senior year. He leaves and is really the only offensive star to go and in Tee Martin's first year as a starter he leads the university of tennessee not only to a nat'l championship but also to an undefeated season...TEE MARTIN

 

[Musesboy]

Manning will always have a tag as a choker unless he wins it all. It doesn't matter how many playoff games he wins, it will always come down to whether he wins the SB or not.

The Colts went about five weeks without a meaningful game last year and it showed in the first half against the Steelers. They almost came back but not quite.

Last year was the first in which the Colts had enough on defense to win the SB. It didn't happen. They lost to the SB champs for the last three years.

I think Manning will eventually lead the team to victory in the SB. I hope so because I am getting tired of the choker tag. I am not a Colts fan but they were the most entertaining team to watch last year and were the best team in my opinion.

 

[Borat]

He's Mr. October.

Some players get better when the pressure is on, some are barely affected, and some get worse. There is no question that Manning falls into the lattermost category.

 

[Fantasy_Freak]

It would be similar to Barry Sanders. A guy who quit on his team after the draft, with still, a lot of "gas left in the tank".

 

[SSOG]

Obviously he didn't have teams good enough to win the Super Bowl, or they would have won it.

Stop riding this dude. It's the same thing as Kobe Bryant. For whatever reason, the meek of the Earth hate the guy for no reason. He's a stud QB. Super Bowls throphies aren't exactly growing on trees.

If he retired today, he would still be one of the greatest QB's to ever suit up. He wouldn't be a winner or a loser, unless you asked all the morons who hate just to hate.

I do not hate or love Elway. I am rather indifferent towards him. But facts are facts, he's a choker and incapable of winning the big game.

Edited for circa 1995. Sometimes, it seems, facts aren't really facts.I hate that "incapable of winning in _________ situation" knock that some players get. It's complete and utter bull. Just because they HAVEN'T YET doesn't mean they NEVER WILL. I mean, how can *ANY* QB be "incapable of winning the superbowl". TRENT FREAKING DILFER WON THE SUPERBOWL. As you can see, it's not this magic ephemereal accomplishment. You give pretty much any QB the 2000 Ravens or 1985 Bears defense and that QB wins the superbowl. And if that QB *did* win the SB with the 2000 Ravens or 1985 Bears, would that suddenly magically make him a better QB?

Oh hey guys, remember when Cowher was a great regular season coach who couldn't win on the road, in the AFC Championship game, or in the Superbowl, too? And remember when Mike Shanahan was incapable of winning a playoff game without Elway?

Yeah, me neither.

 

[Musesboy]

Obviously he didn't have teams good enough to win the Super Bowl, or they would have won it.

Stop riding this dude. It's the same thing as Kobe Bryant. For whatever reason, the meek of the Earth hate the guy for no reason. He's a stud QB. Super Bowls throphies aren't exactly growing on trees.

If he retired today, he would still be one of the greatest QB's to ever suit up. He wouldn't be a winner or a loser, unless you asked all the morons who hate just to hate.

I do not hate or love Elway.  I am rather indifferent towards him.  But facts are facts, he's a choker and incapable of winning the big game. 

Edited for circa 1995. Sometimes, it seems, facts aren't really facts.I hate that "incapable of winning in _________ situation" knock that some players get. It's complete and utter bull. Just because they HAVEN'T YET doesn't mean they NEVER WILL. I mean, how can *ANY* QB be "incapable of winning the superbowl". TRENT FREAKING DILFER WON THE SUPERBOWL. As you can see, it's not this magic ephemereal accomplishment. You give pretty much any QB the 2000 Ravens or 1985 Bears defense and that QB wins the superbowl. And if that QB *did* win the SB with the 2000 Ravens or 1985 Bears, would that suddenly magically make him a better QB?

Oh hey guys, remember when Cowher was a great regular season coach who couldn't win on the road, in the AFC Championship game, or in the Superbowl, too? And remember when Mike Shanahan was incapable of winning a playoff game without Elway?

Yeah, me neither.

Yeah, but Phil Mickelson will never win a major.Oh nevermind.

 

[Davej626]

He'd always be remembered as finishing second to Tom Brady.

 

[Noahs Troopers]

Obviously he didn't have teams good enough to win the Super Bowl, or they would have won it.

Stop riding this dude. It's the same thing as Kobe Bryant. For whatever reason, the meek of the Earth hate the guy for no reason. He's a stud QB. Super Bowls throphies aren't exactly growing on trees.

If he retired today, he would still be one of the greatest QB's to ever suit up. He wouldn't be a winner or a loser, unless you asked all the morons who hate just to hate.

I'm not sure why other people hate Kobe, I personally hate Kobe because he raped somebody and he has an arrogance about his personality.

 

[djcolts]

Certain people are labeled chokers until they A) prove otherwise and the fans/media moves on to another target or B) they never shed it and have to live with that for generations to come. When you get paid millions and millions of dollars and make millions more in commercials and haven't won a championship yet, that is what you get. That's life.

Since "Manning is a choker" is currently conventional wisdom, people that say that are not particularly insightful - anyone can spout out conventional wisdom. And, many times conventional wisdom is proven to be right, and many times it is proven to be wrong. I don't know the answer - but I do know that the "Manning is a choker" threads are not very original or interesting because they pop up in NFL forums everywhere and has been argued to death.

Edit for small typing error.

 

[SSOG]

Obviously he didn't have teams good enough to win the Super Bowl, or they would have won it.

Stop riding this dude. It's the same thing as Kobe Bryant. For whatever reason, the meek of the Earth hate the guy for no reason. He's a stud QB. Super Bowls throphies aren't exactly growing on trees.

If he retired today, he would still be one of the greatest QB's to ever suit up. He wouldn't be a winner or a loser, unless you asked all the morons who hate just to hate.

I'm not sure why other people hate Kobe, I personally hate Kobe because he raped somebody and he has an arrogance about his personality.

Kobe raped someone? And here I thought he had just been accused of raping someone.Edit: It's funny how everyone hates Kobe because he was accused of raping someone, but nobody even knows or seems to care that Peyton Manning was accused of molesting one of the female trainers at Tennessee.

 

[djcolts]

Obviously he didn't have teams good enough to win the Super Bowl, or they would have won it.

Stop riding this dude. It's the same thing as Kobe Bryant. For whatever reason, the meek of the Earth hate the guy for no reason. He's a stud QB. Super Bowls throphies aren't exactly growing on trees.

If he retired today, he would still be one of the greatest QB's to ever suit up. He wouldn't be a winner or a loser, unless you asked all the morons who hate just to hate.

I'm not sure why other people hate Kobe, I personally hate Kobe because he raped somebody and he has an arrogance about his personality.

Kobe raped someone? And here I thought he had just been accused of raping someone.Edit: It's funny how everyone hates Kobe because he was accused of raping someone, but nobody even knows or seems to care that Peyton Manning was accused of molesting one of the female trainers at Tennessee.

Manning mooned the trainer - I don't remember a molesting.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I do not hate or love Elway. I am rather indifferent towards him. But facts are facts, he's a choker and incapable of winning the big game.

Edited for circa 1995. Sometimes, it seems, facts aren't really facts.I hate that "incapable of winning in _________ situation" knock that some players get. It's complete and utter bull. Just because they HAVEN'T YET doesn't mean they NEVER WILL. I mean, how can *ANY* QB be "incapable of winning the superbowl". TRENT FREAKING DILFER WON THE SUPERBOWL. As you can see, it's not this magic ephemereal accomplishment. You give pretty much any QB the 2000 Ravens or 1985 Bears defense and that QB wins the superbowl. And if that QB *did* win the SB with the 2000 Ravens or 1985 Bears, would that suddenly magically make him a better QB?

Oh hey guys, remember when Cowher was a great regular season coach who couldn't win on the road, in the AFC Championship game, or in the Superbowl, too? And remember when Mike Shanahan was incapable of winning a playoff game without Elway?

Yeah, me neither.

There is a huge difference between Elway in '95 and Manning in '06. '95 Elway, despite not winning a Super Bowl yet, had come up big in many playoff games (Cleveland games, Houston, etc.) and had proven himself to be a clutch, big game performer. Manning has won a lot of big regular season games, but really doesn't even have one clutch playoff performance.

Did you know that Manning has never come from behind to win a single playoff game?

And did you know that in the 6 times the Colts have made the playoffs under Manning, they have lost their first playoff game 4 times (and 2 of those were home games)?

Manning's playoff record right now is 3-6 with one AFC title games appearance and no Super Bowl appearances.

In '95, Elway's playoff record was 7-7, and he had made it to three Super Bowl's and four AFC title games.

Big difference, as you can see.

Also, I never said Manning will NEVER win a Super Bowl. This thread is asking what Manning's legacy would be if he never played another down in the NFL. Yes, he might eventually win a Super Bowl and solidify his legacy as an all-time great, but right now, at this moment, if he retired, his legacy would be one who was unable to win in the playoffs. His 3-6 record in the playoffs says it all.

 

[Weiner Dog]

Obviously he didn't have teams good enough to win the Super Bowl, or they would have won it.

Stop riding this dude. It's the same thing as Kobe Bryant. For whatever reason, the meek of the Earth hate the guy for no reason. He's a stud QB. Super Bowls throphies aren't exactly growing on trees.

If he retired today, he would still be one of the greatest QB's to ever suit up. He wouldn't be a winner or a loser, unless you asked all the morons who hate just to hate.

It's unfortunately human nature for many to hate guys like Manning. In some weird way, I think it's a release for fans to feel better about their own (miserable) lives.

 

[Ghost Rider]

It's unfortunately human nature for many to hate guys like Manning. In some weird way, I think it's a release for fans to feel better about their own (miserable) lives.

Again. who said they hate Manning? Why is it some people have to assume that anyone who critiques a player is automatically a 'hater'?

 

[JohnnyU]

Greatest QB of all time, next to the great JohnnyU

 

[Chase Stuart]

If Peyton Manning retired today,, what would his legacy be?

Same as A-Rod's...great regular season guy, w/ great #s, and the kind of guy every GM thinks he wants...

BUT can't get it done when it is most important and there is the most pressure (ie, PLAYOFFS).

This would be a better comparison if A-Rod wasn't one of the greatest players in the history of the game and couldn't get it done in the clutch. A-Rod is one of the best players in MLB (despite his below average start this year). In the highest level of competition he's reached so far (the league championship series), his OBP is over .400 and his SLG% is over .600., both higher than even his own lofty career regular season totals.

 

[Chase Stuart]

I do not hate or love Elway. I am rather indifferent towards him. But facts are facts, he's a choker and incapable of winning the big game.

Edited for circa 1995. Sometimes, it seems, facts aren't really facts.I hate that "incapable of winning in _________ situation" knock that some players get. It's complete and utter bull. Just because they HAVEN'T YET doesn't mean they NEVER WILL. I mean, how can *ANY* QB be "incapable of winning the superbowl". TRENT FREAKING DILFER WON THE SUPERBOWL. As you can see, it's not this magic ephemereal accomplishment. You give pretty much any QB the 2000 Ravens or 1985 Bears defense and that QB wins the superbowl. And if that QB *did* win the SB with the 2000 Ravens or 1985 Bears, would that suddenly magically make him a better QB?

Oh hey guys, remember when Cowher was a great regular season coach who couldn't win on the road, in the AFC Championship game, or in the Superbowl, too? And remember when Mike Shanahan was incapable of winning a playoff game without Elway?

Yeah, me neither.

There is a huge difference between Elway in '95 and Manning in '06. Manning has won a lot of big regular season games, but really doesn't even have one clutch playoff performance.

You should watch more playoff games.

 

[Chase Stuart]

I'm not much of a Manning fan, but I do remember he was lights out in some clutch games at the end of the 2000 season. The Colts needed to win three straight to make the playoffs, and they did just that. Manning was 21/28 for 206 yards and a TD @ Miami, who had one of the best pass defenses in the league. The following week he shredded the Vikings for 283/4 as the Colts cruised to make the playoffs. I sure wished he remembered that he was a choker for those games, because then the Jets might have made the playoffs (IIRC the Steelers might have had the tiebreaker over the Jets in any event).

 

[Ghost Rider]

Chase Stuart, it is not surprising that you would defend a guy who cannot get it done, considering you are a Jets fan , but do not mistake me for one of those oddball crazies who constantly rips Manning for any and everything. I am not like that. I think Manning is a great QB. I just think he hasn't come up big in the playoffs so far, the facts bare this out, and that is why I said his legacy would label him as a guy who couldn't quite get it done, IF HE RETIRED TODAY.

And I pretty much watch every playoff game, every year, thank you very much. I have seen Manning have that 'deer in the headlights' look on his face in his last three playoff losses. Did you somehow miss that? In those three losses, Manning and the Colts offense scored a combined 35 points, despite having one of the top offenses in the league in each season. What are we supposed to think about the guy who runs an offense that constantly gags in playoff games like that?

 

[Chase Stuart]

Chase Stuart, it is not surprising that you would defend a guy who cannot get it done, considering you are a Jets fan , but do not mistake me for one of those oddball crazies who constantly rips Manning for any and everything. I am not like that. I think Manning is a great QB. I just think he hasn't come up big in the playoffs so far, the facts bare this out, and that is why I said his legacy would label him as a guy who couldn't quite get it done, IF HE RETIRED TODAY.

And I pretty much watch every playoff game, every year, thank you very much. I have seen Manning have that 'deer in the headlights' look on his face in his last three playoff losses. Did you somehow miss that? In those three losses, Manning and the Colts offense scored a combined 35 points, despite having one of the top offenses in the league in each season. What are we supposed to think about the guy who runs an offense that constantly gags in playoff games like that?

Ghost Rider, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you were a Broncos fan.Anyway, in case you're not, how about these three playoff performances:

22/26, 377, 5 TD, 0 INT

22/30, 304, 3 TD, 0 INT (@Arrowhead)

27/33, 457, 4 TD, 1 INT

Manning for his post-season career has an 89.1 QB rating. Tom Brady for his post-season career has an 89.4 QB rating. Just because public perception is that Brady is unstoppable in the post-season and that Manning chokes, doesn't mean it's true.

 

[Traders2001]

C

H

O

K

E

R

........................

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

Fair or not, until he wins (or at least makes it to) a Super Bowl, that will always be a black mark against him. Unlike Marino, Fouts, Elway (in the 80's), etc., Manning has had teams good enough to win it all. He has always had a running game and had a very good defense last year and still could not get it done. I am not saying winning it all is his sole responsibility, but QB's are often ultimately judged by their postseason success or lack thereof and despite his tremendous numbers through eight seasons, he has too many postseason failures so far and no Super Bowl wins or appearances.

If he retired today, no way in hell would he be ranked alongside the best QB's ever and I would be hard-pressed to put him in the second tier of QB's.

What do you mean unlike Marino........Marino's teams when he first entered the league were as good if not better than Indy's current team. Marino had just as good as shot as anyone. Dan Fouts also made it to the AFC Conference Championship and probably would have won if not for severely cold weather that cramped their style of play. Why is Elway in this comparison......he won two Sb's. Why don't you throw in Bradshaw in the very early 70's and Joe Montana prior to 81...just doens't make sense.His legacy would be simple: A very good quarterback who worked very hard on and off the field. He was durable, strong arm and very accurate but failed to lead his team to elite status. He wouldn't be considered as one of the elite QB's of all time but his season where he threw 49 Td's will go down as one of the greatest individual years for any quarterback.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Fair or not, until he wins (or at least makes it to) a Super Bowl, that will always be a black mark against him.  Unlike Marino, Fouts, Elway (in the 80's), etc., Manning has had teams good enough to win it all.  He has always had a running game and had a very good defense last year and still could not get it done.  I am not saying winning it all is his sole responsibility, but QB's are often ultimately judged by their postseason success or lack thereof and despite his tremendous numbers through eight seasons, he has too many postseason failures so far and no Super Bowl wins or appearances. 

If he retired today, no way in hell would he be ranked alongside the best QB's ever and I would be hard-pressed to put him in the second tier of QB's.

Hi GR,This isn't really a fair question.

Where do you rank his first 8 seasons against any other QB's first 8 seasons?

In my opinion, that's the fair way to look at it.

J

 

[Weiner Dog]

It's unfortunately human nature for many to hate guys like Manning. In some weird way, I think it's a release for fans to feel better about their own (miserable) lives.

Again. who said they hate Manning? Why is it some people have to assume that anyone who critiques a player is automatically a 'hater'?

If "critique a player" = "ignorant about football", then I apologize. To make the previously-stated comment listed below is simply an excellent fishing adventure and I'm obviously wearing the lure hat.If he (Manning) retired today, no way in hell would he be ranked alongside the best QB's ever and I would be hard-pressed to put him in the second tier of QB's.

 

[saintfool]

Fair or not, until he wins (or at least makes it to) a Super Bowl, that will always be a black mark against him. Unlike Marino, Fouts, Elway (in the 80's), etc., Manning has had teams good enough to win it all. He has always had a running game and had a very good defense last year and still could not get it done. I am not saying winning it all is his sole responsibility, but QB's are often ultimately judged by their postseason success or lack thereof and despite his tremendous numbers through eight seasons, he has too many postseason failures so far and no Super Bowl wins or appearances.

If he retired today, no way in hell would he be ranked alongside the best QB's ever and I would be hard-pressed to put him in the second tier of QB's.

Hi GR,This isn't really a fair question.

Where do you rank his first 8 seasons against any other QB's first 8 seasons?

In my opinion, that's the fair way to look at it.

J

Definitely. I also think you are spot on about the Marino comparison. He has the numbers but no rings. Until he gets that ring, he's one of the best who never sealed the deal like Kelly, Esiason, etc.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Chase Stuart, it is not surprising that you would defend a guy who cannot get it done, considering you are a Jets fan , but do not mistake me for one of those oddball crazies who constantly rips Manning for any and everything. I am not like that. I think Manning is a great QB. I just think he hasn't come up big in the playoffs so far, the facts bare this out, and that is why I said his legacy would label him as a guy who couldn't quite get it done, IF HE RETIRED TODAY.

And I pretty much watch every playoff game, every year, thank you very much. I have seen Manning have that 'deer in the headlights' look on his face in his last three playoff losses. Did you somehow miss that? In those three losses, Manning and the Colts offense scored a combined 35 points, despite having one of the top offenses in the league in each season. What are we supposed to think about the guy who runs an offense that constantly gags in playoff games like that?

Ghost Rider, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you were a Broncos fan.Anyway, in case you're not, how about these three playoff performances:

22/26, 377, 5 TD, 0 INT

22/30, 304, 3 TD, 0 INT (@Arrowhead)

27/33, 457, 4 TD, 1 INT

How about these performances:14/31, 137, 0 TD, 2 INT

23/47, 237, 1 TD, 4 INT

27/42, 238, 0 TD, 1 INT

Yes, I am well aware of how Manning torched the Broncos twice and the Chiefs (whose defense I could have thrown on that year), but those are still only 3 of 9 playoff games. You have to look at the whole picture.

Manning for his post-season career has an 89.1 QB rating. Tom Brady for his post-season career has an 89.4 QB rating. Just because public perception is that Brady is unstoppable in the post-season and that Manning chokes, doesn't mean it's true.

I have always maintained that the passer rating is highly overrated, as it doesn't take into account too many important things a QB does. Still, look at how many times Brady has brought his team from behind or down the field for the win in the last minute of a playoff game vs. how many times Manning has. Like I said before, Manning has never came from behind to win a playoff game. It is not as simple as saying Brady and Manning have similar passer ratings, so they have been equal.

His legacy would be simple: A very good quarterback who worked very hard on and off the field. He was durable, strong arm and very accurate but failed to lead his team to elite status. He wouldn't be considered as one of the elite QB's of all time but his season where he threw 49 Td's will go down as one of the greatest individual years for any quarterback.

Hi GR,

This isn't really a fair question.

Where do you rank his first 8 seasons against any other QB's first 8 seasons?

In my opinion, that's the fair way to look at it.

J

Hard to say. I would have to do some research to figure that out, but that really isn't the question. I should point out, too, that I will be surprised if Manning doesn't win a title before it is all said and done, but, like I have said several times now, IF he retired today, his legacy would be one of a player who couldn't get it done when it counted most. Do you disagree? This is all just speculation, clearly, since he isn't retiring anytime soon, but I thought it would be an interesting topic to discuss, nonetheless.

It's unfortunately human nature for many to hate guys like Manning. In some weird way, I think it's a release for fans to feel better about their own (miserable) lives.

Again. who said they hate Manning? Why is it some people have to assume that anyone who critiques a player is automatically a 'hater'?

If "critique a player" = "ignorant about football", then I apologize. To make the previously-stated comment listed below is simply an excellent fishing adventure and I'm obviously wearing the lure hat.If he (Manning) retired today, no way in hell would he be ranked alongside the best QB's ever and I would be hard-pressed to put him in the second tier of QB's.

I never make comments to try and get someone to bite. That is not my way. I am not sure what the point was in you accusing me of being ignorant about football, but I will forgive you.

 

[Big Score]

Joe nailed it with the fourth post in this thread, IMO.

He'd be like half a Marino if he hung them up now.

 

[Sinrman]

All the hate makes me

Right NOW, he'd be simply a great QB with nice stats, but couldn't win the big one (or heck, even made it to the big dance).

Hall of Famer right now? Nope. Give him a few more years (3-4) at the pace or at least close to it, and he's in, Super Bowl or not...

 

[facook]

Joe nailed it with the fourth post in this thread, IMO.

He'd be like half a Marino if he hung them up now.

My initial thought was "Marino-Lite".

 

[Joe Bryant]

Hard to say.  I would have to do some research to figure that out, but that really isn't the question. 

Hi GR,That's something that would be worth researching I believe as I think that's really the only fair question. You want to look to see how he stacks up career wise with 8 seasons against players that have already played 15 plus seasons.That's sort of like saying how does Ben Roethlisberger's or Carson Palmer's career compare to Dan Marino's or John Elway's? Carson Palmer sucks compared to John Elway if you want to look at Palmer's career vs Elway's. That doesn't tell me much.For it to have any meaning, any comparison has to be close to apples to apples I think.J

 

[jetpack]

Even now he'd be one of the two best qbs of our generation and a lock for the HOF. Anything else seems to be overthinking it to me.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Hall of Famer right now? Nope. Give him a few more years (3-4) at the pace or at least close to it, and he's in, Super Bowl or not...

See, I would already put him in the HoF.

Hard to say. I would have to do some research to figure that out, but that really isn't the question.

Hi GR,That's something that would be worth researching I believe as I think that's really the only fair question.

You want to look to see how he stacks up career wise with 8 seasons against players that have already played 15 plus seasons.

That's sort of like saying how does Ben Roethlisberger's or Carson Palmer's career compare to Dan Marino's or John Elway's? Carson Palmer sucks compared to John Elway if you want to look at Palmer's career vs Elway's. That doesn't tell me much.

For it to have any meaning, any comparison has to be close to apples to apples I think.

J

Well, the point of this thread wasn't really to compare him to the all-time greats, even thought I and others have done it. The point was to ask what Manning's legacy would be if he retired today. What do you think it would be?

 

[Joe Bryant]

Hall of Famer right now?  Nope.  Give him a few more years (3-4) at the pace or at least close to it, and he's in, Super Bowl or not...

See, I would already put him in the HoF.

Hard to say.  I would have to do some research to figure that out, but that really isn't the question. 

Hi GR,That's something that would be worth researching I believe as I think that's really the only fair question.

You want to look to see how he stacks up career wise with 8 seasons against players that have already played 15 plus seasons.

That's sort of like saying how does Ben Roethlisberger's or Carson Palmer's career compare to Dan Marino's or John Elway's? Carson Palmer sucks compared to John Elway if you want to look at Palmer's career vs Elway's. That doesn't tell me much.

For it to have any meaning, any comparison has to be close to apples to apples I think.

J

Well, the point of this thread wasn't really to compare him to the all-time greats, even thought I and others have done it. The point was to ask what Manning's legacy would be if he retired today. What do you think it would be?

Hi GR,I think "Half a Marino" as I said above would be about right. But I really do think that doesn't tell us much. I'd much rather see an analysis on how he compares to the other greats through 8 years.

J

 

[Wadsworth]

The simple answer is if manning retired today his legacy would be whatever it is today. To some he's one of the best and a first ballot HoF'r. To others he's a choker that never proved he had what it takes to win the big one. If he keeps playing, he'll have his chances to prove both sides wrong, but if he retires then people will forever think what they think right now, whatever that may be.

As far as the HoF, I was looking over manning's 2004 stats a few days ago. I had forgotten how amazing he was in that season. Over 9 yards per attempts, 68 passes over 20 yards, almost a 5/1 TD/INT ratio with 49 TDs. And he had under 500 attempts. Looking back at the numbers, that season alone might get him HoF consideration. It was more amazing than I remembered and I remembered it as pretty danged amazing. I'm an admitted manning hater, but it's hard to find a legit argument to keep him out of the HoF.

 

[Kevin Ashcraft]

Does it matter?

 

[CalBear]

If Vanderjagt makes the field goal, is Manning a better QB?

 

[Pat Patriot]

If Vanderjagt makes the field goal, is Manning a better QB?

Who knows? That would have only tied the game. Would they have won? If you tell me that they would win the game then yes he would get credit for manufacturing a pretty good comeback.I only say "pretty good" because the comeback was helped tremendously by the awful call on the Palomalu interception.

 

[CalBear]

If Vanderjagt makes the field goal, is Manning a better QB?

Who knows? That would have only tied the game. Would they have won? If you tell me that they would win the game then yes he would get credit for manufacturing a pretty good comeback.I only say "pretty good" because the comeback was helped tremendously by the awful call on the Palomalu interception.

Asked another way, would Brady be a worse QB if Vinatieri had missed his game-winning field goals?

 

[Pat Patriot]

The A-Rod comparison is a bad one. Baseball is obsessed with Stats. When A-Rod is done he is going to have top 5 All Time stats whether he wins a title or not.

Football, as it relates to QB's, cares about winning.

Manning would be a HOF QB but not an elite top 10 guy.

If Manning can get to the SB, I think he will win it. He needs to get over the hump and that is not easy in the AFC.

Tom Brady 3 titles in his first 6 years.

Joe Montana 2 titles in his first 8 years

Terry Bradshaw 1 title in his first 8 years

Roger Staubauch 1 title (1 SB loss) in his first 8 years

John Elway 0 titles, 3 SB losses

If you are going to win a title, most elite QB's have won one prior to their 9th season.

 

[Pat Patriot]

If Vanderjagt makes the field goal, is Manning a better QB?

Who knows? That would have only tied the game. Would they have won? If you tell me that they would win the game then yes he would get credit for manufacturing a pretty good comeback.I only say "pretty good" because the comeback was helped tremendously by the awful call on the Palomalu interception.

Asked another way, would Brady be a worse QB if Vinatieri had missed his game-winning field goals?

Who knows? The games were tied when he attempted the FG's. Brady would have still had a chance to win the game in OT.

 

[SSOG]

There is a huge difference between Elway in '95 and Manning in '06.

'95 Elway, despite not winning a Super Bowl yet, had come up big in many playoff games (Cleveland games, Houston, etc.) and had proven himself to be a clutch, big game performer. Manning has won a lot of big regular season games, but really doesn't even have one clutch playoff performance.

Did you know that Manning has never come from behind to win a single playoff game?

And did you know that in the 6 times the Colts have made the playoffs under Manning, they have lost their first playoff game 4 times (and 2 of those were home games)?

Manning's playoff record right now is 3-6 with one AFC title games appearance and no Super Bowl appearances.

In '95, Elway's playoff record was 7-7, and he had made it to three Super Bowl's and four AFC title games.

Big difference, as you can see.

Also, I never said Manning will NEVER win a Super Bowl. This thread is asking what Manning's legacy would be if he never played another down in the NFL. Yes, he might eventually win a Super Bowl and solidify his legacy as an all-time great, but right now, at this moment, if he retired, his legacy would be one who was unable to win in the playoffs. His 3-6 record in the playoffs says it all.

I wasn't trying to compare Manning to Elway. I think that would be disingenuous, since they both play different styles in drastically different systems. I was just trying to say that 10 years ago, the "consensus" was that Elway was *incapable* of winning the big one. A year ago, Cowher was *incapable* of winning the big one. Two years ago, Phil Mickelson was a choker who was destined to come up small in big moments. Basically, what I'm trying to get at here is that the general public is stupid and likes to paint pictures in such broad generalized strokes that the end result doesn't remotely resemble reality.I'm not trying to argue with you, and I took very keen notice of the fact that you asked what his legacy WOULD be, not what it SHOULD be... I was just sparking some discussion. In my mind, this talk about Manning being a choker or not a winner is just lunacy. He's proven time and again that he's a winner.

Some people want to base all of their judgements of a player on a ridiculously small sample size (such as "playoff games"). I'll tell you what, I could probably isolate a 10-game sample that would make Joe Montana look like one of the worst QBs that ever walked the face of the earth... but since those games were called something other than "playoff" games, he's still Joe Cool and Manning's a choker.

How about these performances:

14/31, 137, 0 TD, 2 INT

23/47, 237, 1 TD, 4 INT

27/42, 238, 0 TD, 1 INT

Yes, I am well aware of how Manning torched the Broncos twice and the Chiefs (whose defense I could have thrown on that year), but those are still only 3 of 9 playoff games. You have to look at the whole picture.

In all fairness, I find it a little bit ironic that you're telling Chase to look at the whole picture after twice simply isolating Manning's stats in his losses.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

If Vanderjagt makes the field goal, is Manning a better QB?

Who knows? That would have only tied the game. Would they have won? If you tell me that they would win the game then yes he would get credit for manufacturing a pretty good comeback.I only say "pretty good" because the comeback was helped tremendously by the awful call on the Palomalu interception.

Asked another way, would Brady be a worse QB if Vinatieri had missed his game-winning field goals?

Who knows? The games were tied when he attempted the FG's. Brady would have still had a chance to win the game in OT.

I don't believe the Oakland (tuck rule) game was tied. And even still, I would wager a fair amount of money that even if Vinatieri missed those FGs and the other team got the ball in OT and scored before Brady even got on the field that people wouldn't see Brady as a top 2 or 3 NFL QB right now, much less all time. And I doubt you would find much of anyone putting him on the same plane as Manning given that scenario.Yes, Manning had some bad games in their playoff losses. But if you take a look at it Brady has had some playoff clunkers of his own. The difference? In those games where Brady struggled the defense picked him up, allowing less than 10 points in pretty much all of those games. Which brings me to my next point...

As an aspiring statistician I ran some numbers a while back on Mr. Brady. I don't care to dig them up now but I'll give you the gist of it:

-The success of the Patriots has virtually no linear correlation with the success of the Patriots. Brady has done well and the Pats won the Super Bowl, he's done decent and the Pats won the Super Bowl, and he's struggled in some games and the Pats have still won the Super Bowl. Statistically, there is no correlation between the success of Brady and the success of the Patriots.

-There however is a very very very very strong positive linear relationship between the success of the New England defense and the success of the Patriots as a whole. The three years they won the super bowl were the three years they ranked best in defense in the last decade. Of the last 5 years they have only missed the Super Bowl twice, in those two years the Patriots defense was ranked outside the top 15, something the Indy defense has done four of the last five years. Statistically, there is a huge correlation between the success of the defense and the success of the Patriots. As the defense goes, so goes the Patriots.