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In case there was any doubt about fracking (1 Viewer)

3C's said:
2 posts in and already political. :wall:
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How do you propose this not have any political aspect if one believes fracking is bad? It ultimately needs to banned by elected officials if you believe it's as destructive as some say. It's fair to point out which elected officials would be more/less likely to curtail fracking. We're not discussing an apolitical topic like the best kind of cake.

 
AnonymousBob said:
How do you propose this not have any political aspect if one believes fracking is bad? It ultimately needs to banned by elected officials if you believe it's as destructive as some say. It's fair to point out which elected officials would be more/less likely to curtail fracking. We're not discussing an apolitical topic like the best kind of cake.
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I'd put the O/U at 6 posts.

 
AnonymousBob said:
How do you propose this not have any political aspect if one believes fracking is bad? It ultimately needs to banned by elected officials if you believe it's as destructive as some say. It's fair to point out which elected officials would be more/less likely to curtail fracking. We're not discussing an apolitical topic like the best kind of cake.
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I know it can't happen here but maybe people could discuss scientific facts about the process and effects of fracking without it turning into a finger pointing political fight. :shrug:

 
AnonymousBob said:
The earthquakes are quite likely not technically because of the fracking itself but a related byproduct thereof. 

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2015/june/okla-quake-drilling-061815.html
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Yup.  One thing about fracking is that many of the environmental harms can be mitigated or even nullified by more closely regulating the process. The disposal method for produced water can be changed, or it can be treated. Drilling sites can be more closely monitored and regulated to ensure that flowback doesn't contaminate the groundwater. States can mandate disclosure of fracking fluid components so that communities can make informed choices when they're weighing jobs vs environmental risks.

Obviously those solutions aren't perfect, and you'd rather have no fracking than fracking even with mitigated risks.  The problem is that until renewable energy capacity increases to the point that we can power our daily lives with it, the choice isn't simply fracking vs. no fracking. It's fracking vs. coal, fracking vs. middle eastern oil, fracking vs. more/larger pipelines necessitated by having fewer production points, etc.

 
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The abundance of natural gas in the marketplace (much, due to fracking) has lowered prices tremendously. In 2008 (the year prior to the latest huge production increases), the annualized price was about 8 bucks. 2017 is currently trading around 2.72.

 
Since I live in Oklahoma, I thought I'd weigh in...

The land that is now Oklahoma has had a very active fault line for centuries.  Probably the most active in the nation, however the quakes were normally <2 and thus were never noticed and never caused damage.  I have lived in Oklahoma my entire life and learned this in college, its just one of those things I learned and never forgot.  

The last 5-10 years the magnitude has increased dramatically but the frequency is about the same.  Most assume, and I agree, that waste water injection is causing these quakes. In the last few months the state Corporation Commission has but the brakes on fracking and waste water injection and the quakes have slowed. 

Oh and while the quakes are annoying, they have caused very little damage as they rarely get into the 4's.  We're not talking the size to catastrophic problems, at least not yet.

 
lakerstan said:
I admit that I haven't followed this closely, but was on the USGS website and noticed a bunch of tiny earthquakes today in......Oklahoma??

A quick Google search led me to this new article from Time magazine.  This is really incredible, and I hope it gets more attention.  The increase in earthquakes is astonishing, and the quest for oil and gas is the direct cause.

http://time.com/4251385/oklahoma-earthquakes-oil-gas/

http://newsok.com/earthquakes
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So cheaper oil is better for the environment?

 
D in the D said:
The abundance of natural gas in the marketplace (much, due to fracking) has lowered prices tremendously. In 2008 (the year prior to the latest huge production increases), the annualized price was about 8 bucks. 2017 is currently trading around 2.72.
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You consider that as an offset? A worthy offset? And what about the other side-effects besides money?

 
TobiasFunke said:
Yup.  One thing about fracking is that many of the environmental harms can be mitigated or even nullified by more closely regulating the process. The disposal method for produced water can be changed, or it can be treated. Drilling sites can be more closely monitored and regulated to ensure that flowback doesn't contaminate the groundwater. States can mandate disclosure of fracking fluid components so that communities can make informed choices when they're weighing jobs vs environmental risks.

Obviously those solutions aren't perfect, and you'd rather have no fracking than fracking even with mitigated risks.  The problem is that until renewable energy capacity increases to the point that we can power our daily lives with it, the choice isn't simply fracking vs. no fracking. It's fracking vs. coal, fracking vs. middle eastern oil, fracking vs. more/larger pipelines necessitated by having fewer production points, etc.
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In PA, the Oil and Gas industry is heavily regulated.  If done correctly (i.e. responsible construction and waste disposal techniques), natural gas obtain through fracking is a much more environmentally friendly energy source than other fossil fuel extraction methods. 

 
As others have mentioned, the quakes are caused by injection of wastewater into wells.  The wastewater is frequently from fracking but not exclusively, there are other manufacturing and mining processes that create similar wastewater.  Injecting that water into wells, especially near faults underground lubricates the underground plates, making earthquakes occur more easily.  The wastewater does not have to be injected into these underground wells, but it is the cheapest solution and is typically safe if the area has no seismic activity.  These injection wells are all over the country and not all of them create the conditions that increase earthquakes.  The water can be re-used or cleaned up and put back into nature, but that is more expensive so the frackers would rather just dispose of it. 

There are many potential solutions to the issue that do not stop fracking, which has benefitted our economy spectacularly in the last decade. 

 
worrierking said:
As others have mentioned, the quakes are caused by injection of wastewater into wells.  The wastewater is frequently from fracking but not exclusively, there are other manufacturing and mining processes that create similar wastewater.  Injecting that water into wells, especially near faults underground lubricates the underground plates, making earthquakes occur more easily.  The wastewater does not have to be injected into these underground wells, but it is the cheapest solution and is typically safe if the area has no seismic activity.  These injection wells are all over the country and not all of them create the conditions that increase earthquakes.  The water can be re-used or cleaned up and put back into nature, but that is more expensive so the frackers would rather just dispose of it. 

There are many potential solutions to the issue that do not stop fracking, which has benefitted our economy spectacularly in the last decade. 
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So, maybe potentially allowing the shifting which will eventually occur to occur more easily and frequently, and so less catastrophically?

Around Colorado the concern is over what's being injected.  Folks are told not to worry, its mostly (above 99%) water.  Folks are told they don't need to know what is in the small, unidentified percentage that being a proprietary secret, like the Colonel's recipe or the formula for coke.  The Frackers argue, collectively, that they must keep their secret formula's secret from each other.  I am going to hit that again, petrochemical engineers that learn the same processes from the same schools say they have secrets one from the other, yet the industry works collectively to protect the secrets.  The very industry that they each claim to be suspicious of wanting their magic formulas, who can't be trusted, trusts each other enough to work in concert.

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
So, maybe potentially allowing the shifting which will eventually occur to occur more easily and frequently, and so less catastrophically?

Around Colorado the concern is over what's being injected.  Folks are told not to worry, its mostly (above 99%) water.  Folks are told they don't need to know what is in the small, unidentified percentage that being a proprietary secret, like the Colonel's recipe or the formula for coke.  The Frackers argue, collectively, that they must keep their secret formula's secret from each other.  I am going to hit that again, petrochemical engineers that learn the same processes from the same schools say they have secrets one from the other, yet the industry works collectively to protect the secrets.  The very industry that they each claim to be suspicious of wanting their magic formulas, who can't be trusted, trusts each other enough to work in concert.
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This shouldn't be a problem b/c Colorado, like most states where fracking takes place, has a fracking disclosure law.  Citizens can access info about the composition of the fracking fluid for every frack job in the state at fracfocus.org.  The site is pretty easy to use: here's the search page.

 
Blick said:
In PA, the Oil and Gas industry is heavily regulated.  If done correctly (i.e. responsible construction and waste disposal techniques), natural gas obtain through fracking is a much more environmentally friendly energy source than other fossil fuel extraction methods. 
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Isn't one of the complaints about fracking here in PA is that the DEP isn't very good enforcing regulations and instead relies on the industry to regulate itself?  I haven't heard of any increase in seismic activity in Pennsylvania but there are a lot of horror stories about water contamination.

 
Godsbrother said:
Isn't one of the complaints about fracking here in PA is that the DEP isn't very good enforcing regulations and instead relies on the industry to regulate itself?  I haven't heard of any increase in seismic activity in Pennsylvania but there are a lot of horror stories about water contamination.
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Just the opposite.  The DEP created an Oil and Gas division solely to regulate drilling in PA.  Their enforcement agents routinely inspect construction and drilling sites.  Notices of Violation and fines have been give to most, if not all, operators.  A large majority of these actions deal with very minor infractions of the Clean Water Act that probably wouldn't result in violation for any other industry.

 
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I live just south of wichita and we are good for numerous shelf rattlers a year now. it seems to be the new normal. 

Just like Krypton man. The whole thing is going to implode in on itself. 

 
TobiasFunke said:
Yup.  One thing about fracking is that many of the environmental harms can be mitigated or even nullified by more closely regulating the process. The disposal method for produced water can be changed, or it can be treated. Drilling sites can be more closely monitored and regulated to ensure that flowback doesn't contaminate the groundwater. States can mandate disclosure of fracking fluid components so that communities can make informed choices when they're weighing jobs vs environmental risks.

Obviously those solutions aren't perfect, and you'd rather have no fracking than fracking even with mitigated risks.  The problem is that until renewable energy capacity increases to the point that we can power our daily lives with it, the choice isn't simply fracking vs. no fracking. It's fracking vs. coal, fracking vs. middle eastern oil, fracking vs. more/larger pipelines necessitated by having fewer production points, etc.
Click to expand...
Pretty informed post. 

 
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