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indy #2 wr (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter longlip
- Start date
longlip
Footballguy
obviously, who will start as the second wr...
thehornet
Footballguy
i edited it above, but to be more clear, Garcon will probably see mor targets for the forseeable future. Collie probably has a brighter future.
thehornet
Footballguy
dude, im trying to help you but you're not listening. Garcon then Collie, then much much further down is Baskett. he isnt a threat. jeeeeezus chr***dont know why you would ever think baskett is taking the number 2. He doesnt know the offense, isnt that good. He'll play some, but also play special teams stuff.
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Pantherz
Footballguy
I believe he was referring to the Harrison comment
Harrison is not an option, we already discussed this, silly.
MaddHatter
Footballguy
The funny thing is that Collie beat out Garcon in a camp and preseason, but people insist Garcon is the WR2 for the Colts.
thehornet
Footballguy
It's really to tough to say definitively that one or the other is the #2. They're going to probably see similiar snap numbers. I agree. Long term, I like Collie more.
Just because the guy who writes the checks said hell no? Come on, that is no way to stop a good internet rumor.Harrison is not an option, we already discussed this, silly.
longlip
Footballguy
sorry i was referring to the marvin harrison comment not you...
SuperGreen
Footballguy
beat him out for the slot job. maybe they believe garcon is better on the edges than collie?
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
Collie is the starting slot receiver. Garcon backs up Gonzo on the edge, so both will play.Targets go Wayne>Clark>Collie>Garcon. Flip a coin on collie or garcon if you have to start one in deep leagues...
ffchamp1
Footballguy
Garcon will replace Gonzo on the outside and Collie will retain his starting slot role so if last week is any indication the targets will be Wayne > Addai> Clark> Garcon with Collie and Brown getting what is left over. If I had to choose between Garcon and Collie for the next 6 weeks, it would be Garcon with the single coverage on the outside.Tom
JamesTheScot
Footballguy
Exactly.Collie/Slot + Garcon/Edge < or > or = Collie/Edge + Garcon/SlotWho knows. Neither would surprise me since essentially both were trying out for the slot position.
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
Was about to pounce on Garcon, but with Baskett coming to the Colts, who knows if it would be a stretch to come in and impact immediately.
I know, I know...everyone talks about "chemistry". But I doubt that Collie or Garcon have a significant advantage in that department.
I always felt that Baskett was a legit WR in this league. With Manning, there's always more upside. Still, I am roster tight to add any of these. But if you guess the right one to fill in for AG, you could get WW gold on the cheap.
Another consideration to not overvalue this vacancy is the state of the weakend Indy Line. This will probably benefit Dallas Clark the most.
I know, I know...everyone talks about "chemistry". But I doubt that Collie or Garcon have a significant advantage in that department.
I always felt that Baskett was a legit WR in this league. With Manning, there's always more upside. Still, I am roster tight to add any of these. But if you guess the right one to fill in for AG, you could get WW gold on the cheap.
Another consideration to not overvalue this vacancy is the state of the weakend Indy Line. This will probably benefit Dallas Clark the most.
NYRAGE
Footballguy
I watched the short cuts on Directv on Demand today and it didn't look like Manning looked for either. When a play was needed, Manning went to Wayne, then Clark.
So if you pick up either, you might want to hold them on your bench this week and see how it plays out before starting one.
So if you pick up either, you might want to hold them on your bench this week and see how it plays out before starting one.
Garrett
Footballguy
Peyton doesn't throw the ball to receivers he doesn't trust. Gonzalez's injury just means more balls for Wayne/Clark and the running backs. Big bump for Dallas Clark. I think anyone trying to muddle through 3 under qualified replacements for Gonzalez is reaching. Granted if you have the roster spots, go for it, but that waiver wire better be pretty bare if you go down this path looking for a player that you can actually start and benefit from.
How they are going to line up is no mystery, just look at what happened when Gonzo got hurt. When Gonzo got hurt Garcon lined up almost exclusively in his position while Collie lined up exclusively in the slot.
The one thing the Colts did differently when Gonzo went out was they actually went into more of a 3 WR set than before when he got hurt. Before he got hurt it was Collie who would occasionally come in to play the slot while Garcon got no playing time. Once he got hurt they primarily went to a a 3 WR set with Garcon assuming Gonzo's position and Collie playing slot.
So knowing what position these two are going to play seems obvious. Knowing which one is going to get the most targets is the trickier part but I think it's going to be Garcon and by a decent margin. Last year Marvin, playing the role designed for Gonzo but now played by Garcon, got 7.13 targets per game. Gonzo last year only got 4.9 targets per game last year playing the position now manned by Collie. So basically an old Marvin who slipped so badly even the Colts don't want want hm back got over 2 targets more per game last year than Gonzo did while playing the same position Garcon will be playing for the next 6-8 weeks. Early returns are encouraging as Garcon got 5 targets while not playing the first 13 snaps while Collie only got 2.
The one thing the Colts did differently when Gonzo went out was they actually went into more of a 3 WR set than before when he got hurt. Before he got hurt it was Collie who would occasionally come in to play the slot while Garcon got no playing time. Once he got hurt they primarily went to a a 3 WR set with Garcon assuming Gonzo's position and Collie playing slot.
So knowing what position these two are going to play seems obvious. Knowing which one is going to get the most targets is the trickier part but I think it's going to be Garcon and by a decent margin. Last year Marvin, playing the role designed for Gonzo but now played by Garcon, got 7.13 targets per game. Gonzo last year only got 4.9 targets per game last year playing the position now manned by Collie. So basically an old Marvin who slipped so badly even the Colts don't want want hm back got over 2 targets more per game last year than Gonzo did while playing the same position Garcon will be playing for the next 6-8 weeks. Early returns are encouraging as Garcon got 5 targets while not playing the first 13 snaps while Collie only got 2.
I'm guessing you're completely mis-reading this. Collie passed Garcon (who had a horrible horrible preseason, as far as game performance). The week of gameplanning was setup for Collie to see the field about 60% of the snaps at the slot and sometimes single wideout with Gonzo in the slot, somtimes Clark. Garcon practiced all week on the outside. When Gonzo went down, they simply put Garcon in the spot he'd been prepared for (Gonzo's). Collie stayed in the rotation/spot he had prepared for.Watching the game both live and on DVR I thought both performed pretty well. Both had a tough drop, Garcon did well cutting into the middle and opening up for Peyton. Collie did a great job of getting quick releases outside and in the slot to create separation. I just really feel that Collie's "quick" is what sets him apart; think Wes Welker with a learning curve yet to climb on what to do AFTER he catches the ball.The proof will be in the puddnig this week. I'd expect to see Collie in on 70-75% of the snap, Garcon more like 40%. Targets to reflect that.
longlip
Footballguy
thanks, nice...
PahtyTom
Footballguy
Respectfully disagree with us. Everything I saw last week, and have heard this week has Garcon starting on the outside. Collie does not have the game suited to be on the outside really, where I believe Garcon might. I think the Colts see it that way right now as well. We shall see though.edited to add: Regardless of who is in the slot and who is on the outside, I don't expect either to be on the field for less than 70% of the plays. Garcon was on the field for almost 100% of the plays once Gonzo went out. Collie was on the field 77% of the time for the entire game.
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I don't agree with you that Collie passed Garcon. I think they just feel Collie is better suited for the slot position. I do agree with you that had Gonzo not got hurt Collie would have seen the field a lot more than Garcon. However with Gonzo gone the proof is already in the pudding with regard to were they are going to line up and the proof is right here: http://www.profootballfocus.com/pstats.php?gameid=1400
JohnnyU
Footballguy
Everyone should listen to this guy, he's premed........he knows stuff.
I'm in this camp. The Colts brought in 3 or 4 wrs to work out and decided on Baskett.The 2 already on the roster have something like 9 NFL rec. between them and they don't offer the size (big target) that Baskett does.It is logical to conclude that Manning had a tremendous amount of input as to who they use and how. And Peyton is on record saying Baskett can help us now.I've put all my preconceived notions of Hank Baskett in a ball and thrown them out the window.Because if Manning is throwing to him it's a whole new ballgame. We know he's in football shape and we know that he is furiously studying the playbook as we speak. FWIW I've picked up Baskett on the cheap in both of my leagues and am looking forward to week 3 in AZ as he should be able to contribute in that game. After that, it's anybody's ballgame. Some one is gonna jump up this year and make a difference as a wideout. I looked at the worst player on my roster and decided that they didn't have the opportunity Baskett is being given right now. So adios. If it doesn't work out, so be it. But it really feels like the low cost shark move of this young year.
PahtyTom
Footballguy
I gotta be honest...I really dont see Baskett playing much except for jumpball situations etc
The way I see it is this. The Colts had one weakness on their 2009 roster and it was this; If either Wayne or AGonz went down early to injury they would be in trouble. Harrison was old (lost 2 steps) and expensive.The new guys ,Garcon and Collie dont have the experience yet. But don't need it if Wayne and AGonz are there. Then the inevitable happens, Gonz goes down, and without any contact. This worries me as much as anything and could be recurring.As good as the Indy front office has been, this was a chance they took and they rolled craps. Now what to do?Get a guy Peyton can work with and go forward. That's their only course of action. Don't get hungup on what Baskett was before. He never got a chance to catch the pretty ball Peyton throws. If Manning thinks he's good enough I'm down with it.I'll freely admit this guy is a longshot. But he only costs you the last guy on your roster and could be gold this season.
PahtyTom
Footballguy
I guess what I was saying was that I'd rather gamble on Garcon than on Baskett and they probably are/were both attainable. I might be way off but I think the Baskett signing was just some veteran depth in case something else bad happens to someone while Gonzo is out.
And you could very well be right.But I'm gambling on the bigger guy getting more love.I'v been burned before and I'm looking at you Santana Moss.
OK, still not listening. If you have someone go down, you don't necessarily (and probably ever) just shift everyone up a spot. You replace the missing guy and his assignments to the guy that has practiced in that spot. I guess we'll see this Monday night. And maybe Garcon is a "real game" gamer, and just didn't know how to catch the ball in the pre-season, but his hands have suddenly become great. /shrug. Personally, I don't think it works that way. My :twocents:
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Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
This isn't that complicated.
Baskett is signed as depth only. The Colts started with only four WRs on the squad and one of them got hurt. So they signed someone off the street. The Colts have no intention of having Baskett displace either Collie or Garcon (if they thought he might be better than the two guys they already had they'd have looked into signing him before Gonzalez went down). They just needed a body - and he wasn't even their first choice.
Collie didn't "beat out" Garcon. They weren't really competing head to head. The Colts did decide that the combination of Gonzalez out wide and Collie in the slot was more to their liking than Garcon out wide and Gonzalez in the slot. So Collie was set to be on the field more.
After Gonzalez went down Garcon started every snap at right WR until the last run-out-the-clock drive, and Collie was in the slot.
IMO there's no debate that Garcon's the better buy if you need depth. In PPR you can make a case for Collie, but I think Garcon is actually pretty talented and could surprise people. In fact I think it's possible that he'll show well enough that they bump Gonzalez back to the slot and send Collie back to the bench when A Gonz returns.
Regardless... Gonzalez and Harrison combined for about 20ppg last year (PPR). Some of those points could go to Wayne and Clark now, but defenses will probably roll towards them a bit more than they would otherwise too. So it's possible that unless Collie and Garcon split the spoils right down the middle one of them is worth owning as a WR4 with upside.
My vote is for Garcon.
Baskett is signed as depth only. The Colts started with only four WRs on the squad and one of them got hurt. So they signed someone off the street. The Colts have no intention of having Baskett displace either Collie or Garcon (if they thought he might be better than the two guys they already had they'd have looked into signing him before Gonzalez went down). They just needed a body - and he wasn't even their first choice.
Collie didn't "beat out" Garcon. They weren't really competing head to head. The Colts did decide that the combination of Gonzalez out wide and Collie in the slot was more to their liking than Garcon out wide and Gonzalez in the slot. So Collie was set to be on the field more.
After Gonzalez went down Garcon started every snap at right WR until the last run-out-the-clock drive, and Collie was in the slot.
IMO there's no debate that Garcon's the better buy if you need depth. In PPR you can make a case for Collie, but I think Garcon is actually pretty talented and could surprise people. In fact I think it's possible that he'll show well enough that they bump Gonzalez back to the slot and send Collie back to the bench when A Gonz returns.
Regardless... Gonzalez and Harrison combined for about 20ppg last year (PPR). Some of those points could go to Wayne and Clark now, but defenses will probably roll towards them a bit more than they would otherwise too. So it's possible that unless Collie and Garcon split the spoils right down the middle one of them is worth owning as a WR4 with upside.
My vote is for Garcon.
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Please don't say I'm not listening because I don't agree with you. I think you are forgetting a major point. From what I've read the Colts never considered Collie as anything other than a slot WR for now. It was Peter King who reported that the competition in training camp centered on if the Colts either putting Collie in the slot and Gonzo at wideout or leaving Gonzo in the slot and putting Garcon at wideout. At no point was Collie considered for the wideout position. It seems obvious to me they think Collie is a better option in the slot and Garcon is a better option at wideout and I saw nothing from that last game to suggest they changed their mind. Which is why I said and will continue to say I don't think it's a mystery were they are going to line up but it's pure speculation on how often they will run 3 WR sets and how many targets Collie or Garcon will get.
I guess Wayne's not listening to you either Indyhavoc. See below for his comment and link:
Pierre Garcon likely will get his first NFL start Monday.
That’s Indianapolis Colts three-time Pro Bowl WR Reggie Wayne’s impression, at least, and if Garcon — a second-year receiver from Mount Union — indeed does start in his return to his native South Florida, Wayne said he is confident the younger player will perform well.
Wayne said he feels the same about rookie WR Austin Collie, who likely will play an extensive role as a slot receiver for a second consecutive week.
link: http://indyfootballreport.com/index.php/ar.../3659#more-3659
Pierre Garcon likely will get his first NFL start Monday.
That’s Indianapolis Colts three-time Pro Bowl WR Reggie Wayne’s impression, at least, and if Garcon — a second-year receiver from Mount Union — indeed does start in his return to his native South Florida, Wayne said he is confident the younger player will perform well.
Wayne said he feels the same about rookie WR Austin Collie, who likely will play an extensive role as a slot receiver for a second consecutive week.
link: http://indyfootballreport.com/index.php/ar.../3659#more-3659
