INTENTIONAL OR NOT, How Much Do YOU Think Racism Impacts NFL Draft Pos (1 Viewer)

[Joe Bryant]

We had a pretty long thread about Teddy Bridgewater and if racism (even unintentional) had an impact on where he'd be drafted.

This is one of those questions where it's difficult to have any sort of "right" answer. Yet everyone likely has an opinion on it. Some folks have a very strong opinion on it.

So I thought I'd sample the pulse of the Shark Pool to see what you guys thought. Make sure to understand, this is how you see it.

Here's the question:

Intentional or not, how much do you think race factors into how a QB is drafted in the NFL Draft?

The easiest way to think of it is to think of a hypothetical situation with two college QBs, identical in every way except for skin color. Same college, same physical build, same style of play, same arm strength, same hair cut, same highschool, same personality, same off the field behavior, same exact college career with same wins and losses and same stats. Same everything. Only difference is one is white and one is black.

When an average NFL team looked at the two players who were the same in every way except for skin color, how would they view them?

This is obviously a sensitive subject and I may be foolish to think it won't go downward fast. But I'd like to give this a try and see what you guys think.

Important - giving more backup on why you think what you think is STRONGLY encouraged. But please don't attack or try to argue with other posters for what they think beyond asking them to clarify what they mean. There aren't any right or wrong answers here. I'm just trying to get a gauge on what the feeling is on the forum with this topic.

Thanks.

J

 

[Biabreakable]

I cannot find the this is silly option. Or how about one drek thread deserves another? How the race card jumped the shark of look at me threads in 2014?

 

[Bruce Hammond]

Not.

No coach or GM has job security in the NFL, it's only secured by winning. Both black and white QBs have proven, over decades now, that they can win. Bottom line is no one drafting can afford any agenda other than choosing the guy they think will give them the best chance to win, or they decrease their chances of keeping their jobs.

 

[mr roboto]

Not a factor. Winning is the only factor. You draft a player you think will help you win.

Now an interesting question to ask is whether racism impacts which kids get to play QB at younger levels. Bridgewater, Wilson, Kaep and other QBs started playing 10-15 years ago.

 

[amicsta]

I think we are fooling ourselves if we don't think that race matters to at least SOME people making decisions in the NFL. We generally say that sports is a microcosm of the world, and we see the affects race can have in our own lives. I would certainly expect there to be some notion of racism in the league. In terms of quarterback, I think that race is probably a factor in favor of the white player. When we see white quarterbacks, we think of Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, etc (I say "we" because the sentiment exists in our society). When we see black quarterbacks we think of Donovan McNabb, Michael Vick, etc. Likewise, when we make comps, it is very rare for the popular comp for a white QB to be a black QB and vice versa. When we see a black quarterback we think of athleticism, and perhaps poor decision making. Likewise, we assume the white quarterback is a typical dropback passer and makes plays with his arm, and are surprised when we see a guy like Andrew Luck beat the defense with his feet. We hear of stories like with Cam Newton, being asked by Panthers management if he had any tattoos. I have never heard of anyone asking this about a white quarterback, and the fact that A.J. McCarron is littered with them has not seemed to affect how people feel about him as a person or as a player.

I'm not saying that it's right or that it makes sense (because it's not), but I have to believe that sentiments like this are around the league. Just how much, we'll probably never know.

 

[dehaven123]

We had a pretty long thread about Teddy Bridgewater and if racism (even unintentional) had an impact on where he'd be drafted.

This is one of those questions where it's difficult to have any sort of "right" answer. Yet everyone likely has an opinion on it. Some folks have a very strong opinion on it.

So I thought I'd sample the pulse of the Shark Pool to see what you guys thought. Make sure to understand, this is how you see it.

Here's the question:

Intentional or not, how much do you think race factors into how a QB is drafted in the NFL Draft?

The easiest way to think of it is to think of a hypothetical situation with two college QBs, identical in every way except for skin color. Same college, same physical build, same style of play, same arm strength, same hair cut, same highschool, same personality, same off the field behavior, same exact college career with same wins and losses and same stats. Same everything. Only difference is one is white and one is black.

When an average NFL team looked at the two players who were the same in every way except for skin color, how would they view them?

This is obviously a sensitive subject and I may be foolish to think it won't go downward fast. But I'd like to give this a try and see what you guys think.

Important - giving more backup on why you think what you think is STRONGLY encouraged. But please don't attack or try to argue with other posters for what they think beyond asking them to clarify what they mean. There aren't any right or wrong answers here. I'm just trying to get a gauge on what the feeling is on the forum with this topic.

Thanks.

J

would seem that Mr Waldman should provide a response to the post and the questions posed. he seems like the one most of the posters would like to here from on this, considering... i for one would be very interested to see him provide some meat to his feelings. in a way, it would be ok to feel like he owed a legitimate response. would go a long way in helping us all understand where he's coming from.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I cannot find the this is silly option. Or how about one drek thread deserves another? How the race card jumped the shark of look at me threads in 2014?

Hi bia,

The "this is silly" vote would be the one that is "no factor". I don't know that it's a bad topic though as I do think it's interesting to see what people think.

Thanks for being part of the discussion.

J

 

[Joe Bryant]

I think we are fooling ourselves if we don't think that race matters to at least SOME people making decisions in the NFL. We generally say that sports is a microcosm of the world, and we see the affects race can have in our own lives. I would certainly expect there to be some notion of racism in the league. In terms of quarterback, I think that race is probably a factor in favor of the white player. When we see white quarterbacks, we think of Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, etc (I say "we" because the sentiment exists in our society). When we see black quarterbacks we think of Donovan McNabb, Michael Vick, etc. Likewise, when we make comps, it is very rare for the popular comp for a white QB to be a black QB and vice versa. When we see a black quarterback we think of athleticism, and perhaps poor decision making. Likewise, we assume the white quarterback is a typical dropback passer and makes plays with his arm, and are surprised when we see a guy like Andrew Luck beat the defense with his feet. We hear of stories like with Cam Newton, being asked by Panthers management if he had any tattoos. I have never heard of anyone asking this about a white quarterback, and the fact that A.J. McCarron is littered with them has not seemed to affect how people feel about him as a person or as a player.

I'm not saying that it's right or that it makes sense (because it's not), but I have to believe that sentiments like this are around the league. Just how much, we'll probably never know.

Hi amicsta,

Some of the players you mentioned are super interesting. The perception thing is fascinating to me. Does an A.J. McCarron tattoo matter less than something similar on a black QB?

Would a running / athletic style QB like Johnny Manziel be perceived differently if he was the exact same style of player, except black?

Lots of interesting angles there. Not sure how much it all really matters as winning is the bottom line, not perception. But still interesting to me.

J

 

[Bojang0301]

Is how is this a pinned thread? an option. The league is 80 to 90% black. Historically the QB position has held some race issues against it for blacks and RB for whites. That being said it is a misnomer to think race plays into it. Culture does. If a player can't speak, spell or has a history with gangs, violence, drugs, etc. it will affect his stock. It's been proven with talents like Aaron Hernandez, Ryan Mallet and several other instances but it is not race that is the card there. It is upbringing. Because the majority of the league is black it will also lead to several more instances of black players falling into the troubled category but there have been several white players that have had their stock affected due to the same cultural issues. Hell, look at Marino.

Now can we talk about trolls around here? Might as well invite Yao Ming and George Jefferson types back with what is allowed to happen on this board anymore.

Edit: sorry, thought it was pinned. Just a poll.

 

[Christo]

Not. We never know what a person actually thinks so we have to rely on objective evidence.

Draft: Last year the first 2 QBs taken were black. 2012 the second QB taken was black. 2011 the first QB taken as black.

Last year 3 teams started black rookie QBs opening day.

 

[amicsta]

I think we are fooling ourselves if we don't think that race matters to at least SOME people making decisions in the NFL. We generally say that sports is a microcosm of the world, and we see the affects race can have in our own lives. I would certainly expect there to be some notion of racism in the league. In terms of quarterback, I think that race is probably a factor in favor of the white player. When we see white quarterbacks, we think of Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, etc (I say "we" because the sentiment exists in our society). When we see black quarterbacks we think of Donovan McNabb, Michael Vick, etc. Likewise, when we make comps, it is very rare for the popular comp for a white QB to be a black QB and vice versa. When we see a black quarterback we think of athleticism, and perhaps poor decision making. Likewise, we assume the white quarterback is a typical dropback passer and makes plays with his arm, and are surprised when we see a guy like Andrew Luck beat the defense with his feet. We hear of stories like with Cam Newton, being asked by Panthers management if he had any tattoos. I have never heard of anyone asking this about a white quarterback, and the fact that A.J. McCarron is littered with them has not seemed to affect how people feel about him as a person or as a player.

I'm not saying that it's right or that it makes sense (because it's not), but I have to believe that sentiments like this are around the league. Just how much, we'll probably never know.

Hi amicsta,

Some of the players you mentioned are super interesting. The perception thing is fascinating to me. Does an A.J. McCarron tattoo matter less than something similar on a black QB?

Would a running / athletic style QB like Johnny Manziel be perceived differently if he was the exact same style of player, except black?

Lots of interesting angles there. Not sure how much it all really matters as winning is the bottom line, not perception. But still interesting to me.

J

I think that it matters less to some people for sure. Just by the simple fact that Cam was asked if he had any and A.J.'s are never really addressed tells me that we associate this more negatively with the black athlete. Just in general, how often do we hear about black player tattoos compared to white player tattoos?

As for Manziel, I think a little bit. People definitely criticize him, but the word we always hear is "creative". I think that it's very possible if he were black, the word would be "sloppy" or they would say that he can't read defenses (which some people DO say about Manziel). I think that when we see the running features of pros we natural assume its their best asset if they are black, and a complimentary skill if they are white. For example, Robert Griffin III was an exceptional passer of the football as a prospect, but the feature we heard (and still hear) about most was his legs. You could've cut Griffin's legs off two years ago and he still would've been an elite quarterback prospect. Of course that's all speculation, but I think at least part of it is true.

Moreover, when we think about football players, if I tell you that a football player is very successful and he is white, what positions do you automatically assume he plays? Probably quarterback or offensive line. If I tell you that a football player is very successful and he is black, what positions do you assume he plays? Probably receiver or running back, maybe you say cornerback or safety. Again, I'm speaking in generalities, but I would imagine this to be true at least with some people in society, and thus in the league.

I agree, winning should certainly be the bottom line, but would it surprise you if it weren't the case with everyone? We live in a society where affirmative action takes place. Even in the NFL, the Rooney Rule is supposed to help limit prejudice against black coaches. Don't you think that if it weren't a problem somewhere that rule wouldn't exist? Sometimes the best don't get a shot due to race, and not just in sports, in the professional world, college, etc. Again, I'm not saying it's right, but not everyone sees the world free of color, and I would have to imagine that carries over to sports as well.

 

[Soulfly3]

Oooooo boy.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I think a quarterback's ethnicity definitely mattered in the James Harris-Doug Williams-Warren Moon era. By the Donovan McNabb era, it mattered to some sports commentators, but not so much to NFL personnel departments, I suspect. Now in the Russell Wilson-Colin Kaepernick era, I think everyone is used to the idea of a black QB, and race may be no more relevant to the quarterback position than it is at tight end or inside linebacker. If we're not quite to that point yet, I think we're getting there.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

If Johnny Manziel were a black guy there's a chunk of the NFL that'd be singing a much harsher tune. The line between brash and uppity is only a few pigments wide.

 

[Gandalf the Grey]

I don't like the question myself, it doesn't reflect the reality of what is happening in the world. You can't divorce race from culture. With all your exclusions ( hair style, off field behavior, style of play, personality) it kind of becomes a meaningless question when it intersects with the dominant race/culture.

My father used to say when I was a kid, "I don't hate black people, I hate <insert n-word/s". He's a changed person now but I think that comment certainly illustrates racism.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

I have a question, I think it's related. If Dez Bryant were white and even if White Dez's background were the same, would Jeff Ireland have asked if his mother were a prostitute? Who thinks no?

 

[Bronco Billy]

Race affects business decisions on NFL players? Does anyone actually believe this? Unless we're talking about white RBs or Asian DEs, I'm not sure how any thinking person looks at the racial makeup of NFL rosters, the pay per player by race, and then compared that to the universal pool of workers in the US broken down by race and then still persists in putting forth this kind of nonsense - especially the super secret double probation inadvertent racism that apparently is the latest calling card for the race hustlers that gullible others who love to create victims falls for.

This has been given way more time than it comes close to meriting. Those convinced of covert racism will not change their minds - if they still believe it in the face of the myriad evidence supporting the opposite.

 

[Donnybrook]

Not. We never know what a person actually thinks so we have to rely on objective evidence.

Draft: Last year the first 2 QBs taken were black. 2012 the second QB taken was black. 2011 the first QB taken as black.

Last year 3 teams started black rookie QBs opening day.

Agree. If there is a problem it is more with the media types that refused to rank EJ Manuel as one of the top QBs leading up to the draft.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I don't like the question myself, it doesn't reflect the reality of what is happening in the world. You can't divorce race from culture. With all your exclusions ( hair style, off field behavior, style of play, personality) it kind of becomes a meaningless question when it intersects with the dominant race/culture.

My father used to say when I was a kid, "I don't hate black people, I hate <insert n-word/s". He's a changed person now but I think that comment certainly illustrates racism.

Hi Gandalf,

I agree the restrictions I put on it were ... restrictive but that was some of the point. If color of skin is the only factor, how does that affect. The reality of course is that you're right and it's more complicated. I think it can be helpful to try and isolate some factors and see how that affects the thinking.

J

 

[Jello_Biafra]

We had a pretty long thread about Teddy Bridgewater and if racism (even unintentional) had an impact on where he'd be drafted.

This is one of those questions where it's difficult to have any sort of "right" answer. Yet everyone likely has an opinion on it. Some folks have a very strong opinion on it.

So I thought I'd sample the pulse of the Shark Pool to see what you guys thought. Make sure to understand, this is how you see it.

Here's the question:

Intentional or not, how much do you think race factors into how a QB is drafted in the NFL Draft?

The easiest way to think of it is to think of a hypothetical situation with two college QBs, identical in every way except for skin color. Same college, same physical build, same style of play, same arm strength, same hair cut, same highschool, same personality, same off the field behavior, same exact college career with same wins and losses and same stats. Same everything. Only difference is one is white and one is black.

When an average NFL team looked at the two players who were the same in every way except for skin color, how would they view them?

This is obviously a sensitive subject and I may be foolish to think it won't go downward fast. But I'd like to give this a try and see what you guys think.

Important - giving more backup on why you think what you think is STRONGLY encouraged. But please don't attack or try to argue with other posters for what they think beyond asking them to clarify what they mean. There aren't any right or wrong answers here. I'm just trying to get a gauge on what the feeling is on the forum with this topic.

Thanks.

J

What race are the people evaluating the players?

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

If Johnny Manziel were a black guy there's a chunk of the NFL that'd be singing a much harsher tune.

When you say "a chunk of the NFL," do you mean scouts and GMs? They mostly don't sing any tunes in March or April, at least publicly; and when they do, it's usually a false one, isn't it?

Both the proposition that Manziel would be drafted lower if he were black and the proposition that he wouldn't be are untestable, so all we can do is speculate. While I don't follow the draft (and the hype leading up to it) nearly as closely as I used to, it seems to me that most of the negative predraft stuff said about, for example, Cam Newton came from writers and commentators, not from NFL execs. Do I remember wrong?

 

[cstu]

Not.

No coach or GM has job security in the NFL, it's only secured by winning. Both black and white QBs have proven, over decades now, that they can win. Bottom line is no one drafting can afford any agenda other than choosing the guy they think will give them the best chance to win, or they decrease their chances of keeping their jobs.

I agree, but if you had two clones of a QB but with one white and the other black I believe the white one would be chosen 100% of the time. That's simply good business.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I have a question, I think it's related. If Dez Bryant were white and even if White Dez's background were the same, would Jeff Ireland have asked if his mother were a prostitute? Who thinks no?

I don't know -- Jeff Ireland's is one of the last people's minds I'd ever try to read -- but that's not a QB-specific issue, which is what I thought the poll was asking about. Whether black WRs are discriminated against in the NFL is a different topic, I think. But still an interesting question, perhaps.

 

[Bronco Billy]

Not.

No coach or GM has job security in the NFL, it's only secured by winning. Both black and white QBs have proven, over decades now, that they can win. Bottom line is no one drafting can afford any agenda other than choosing the guy they think will give them the best chance to win, or they decrease their chances of keeping their jobs.

I agree, but if you had two clones of a QB but with one white and the other black I believe the white one would be chosen 100% of the time. That's simply good business.

If what you are proposing were true, the savvy NFL GM would use all the other GM's subconscious racism against them knowing the black clone will sink lower in the draft, select better talent at other positions with higher picks, and kick ### on the field - creating a much stronger marketing position for the team and the black clone. Then the rest of the league, being prone to observing and copying the behavior of the successful teams, would learn to ignore race as any determinant factor in their personnel decisions. Oh, wait, that happened a couple of decades or so ago. Never mind. Hell, if you want to talk about prejudice against personal characteristics of QBs you'd be on much more credible footing and have evidentiary support talking about bias against shortness than skin color.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

I have a question, I think it's related. If Dez Bryant were white and even if White Dez's background were the same, would Jeff Ireland have asked if his mother were a prostitute? Who thinks no?

I don't know -- Jeff Ireland's is one of the last people's minds I'd ever try to read -- but that's not a QB-specific issue, which is what I thought the poll was asking about. Whether black WRs are discriminated against in the NFL is a different topic, I think. But still an interesting question, perhaps.

Yeah, I guess I was trying to consider strange treatments of players by management no matter what the position they played. I remember Ireland's odd questioning and thought it might suggest that sometimes management still have strange points of view, but I don't know if it would be considered racist or what. I don't mean to derail the discussion about QBs in specific.

 

[Gandalf the Grey]

If Johnny Manziel were a black guy there's a chunk of the NFL that'd be singing a much harsher tune.

When you say "a chunk of the NFL," do you mean scouts and GMs? They mostly don't sing any tunes in March or April, at least publicly; and when they do, it's usually a false one, isn't it?

Both the proposition that Manziel would be drafted lower if he were black and the proposition that he wouldn't be are untestable, so all we can do is speculate. While I don't follow the draft (and the hype leading up to it) nearly as closely as I used to, it seems to me that most of the negative predraft stuff said about, for example, Cam Newton came from writers and commentators, not from NFL execs. Do I remember wrong?

A lot of the positive/negative predraft stuff that annually comes out from writers and commentators typically references "unnamed NFL/scout/GM/executive/s". So I suppose it's a question of how much stock you put into "unnamed sources".

 

[drunken slob]

While the information age has good/bad sides, I believe that football people and fans have evolved in a good way.

Gone are the days of players being slotted because of stereotypes and false perceptions. We've come to the point that analysis is more important than ever. The amount of film available today versus the past is exponential.

If you are someone that still believes color is a factor with regard to ability, and is part of an NFL front office, you will be unemployed in short order.

Edit

Good side of info age: www.footballguys.com

Bad side of info age: pro athlete twitter accounts

 

[Jersey Jammer]

Brilliant move by Joe. (And I mean this sincerely.) Establish an objective thread on an important topic and let everyone have a go at it. It allows the passionate discussion to continue while deflecting attention from Matt. Just watch - that thread will now peter out and this one will pick up all the attention, minus the criticism of Waldman. Damn smart.

 

[cobalt_27]

Question for those in the camp that says race plays a part in the stock of a QB, can you please look back at the past 20 years of black QBs and identify who should have been selected higher but wasn't because of his skin color?

Wilson and Kaep are obvious black QBs who were taken lower than they should have been. Wilson clearly had the height angle that bumped him down, and it's still an issue that follows him. Kaep might have dropped because of race or playing in a gimmicky Nevada offense. But, in the last 20 years who else because of race? If it's such a big determining factor, there must be a slew of examples.

 

[jurb26]

This is a very strange topic to discuss IMO. I know why it is being discussed, but none the less it's strange.

Do I think NFL teams are racist in their evaluations, consciously or unconsciously? Absolutely no.

Talent evaluators have too much too lose and I don't see how allowing their judgement to be clouded is in any way going to fly in today's game. They have professional reputations and monetary gains on the line and at the end of the day people are too self-righteous to allow the former 2 be risked IMO.

The reason this is such an odd thing to discuss is that we have absolutely no facts being presented in this debate. Not only from the actual draft results side, but more on the side of who exactly are these talent evaluators in the NFL? What is their background? Are they mostly White? Mostly Black? Asian or Cuban? What is the average age? What percentage are male or female? We know basically nothing about this group of people. Was there some old grumpy white racist guy on the Ravens payroll reporting back to Ozzie Newsom? I doubt it.

I don't see any context to support this notion that NFL evaluators are racist so I'm inclined to revert back to the fundamentals of human behavior, greed and self interest. The NFL is about making money and winning. Teams want the guys who will help them do that, regardless of race.

I agree with the previous poster who suggested looking into this at a youth level or even at a collegiate level, perhaps.

 

[renesauz]

Little to no impact in this day and age. It's all about the Benjamins

 

[Holy Schneikes]

Agree with previous posters. It's more about culture than skin tone.

The white black clone scenario is interesting. Are their cultural backgrounds the same? If so, as a GM I might well choose the guy who might experience slightly less resistance to leadership in the locker-room. I'll let you guess who I think that might be. It's all about the team and the wins. Marketability is a non-issue. The "good business" point earlier is totally false IMO. Mainstream America has proven time and again they will fully embrace any athlete, politician, etc if they are comfortable with him regardless of skin tone. Most beloved, recognizable athlete in the country? Michael Jordan. After that, maybe Tiger (before the "fall" anyway). Record-setting jersey seller in the NFL in 2012? RG3. President of the United States? Now if any of those guys were flashing gang signs, had mostly gold teeth, or couldn't put a few sentences together in "the kings English" it might be a different story (for better or worse). In fact, if they were WHITE and had those issues, it would be the same story. So if the deciding factors are not REALLY race, but cultural background, is it racism? It's certainly prejudice, but is it legitimate prejudice? Are those things good indicators of future behavior? Dunno.

There could still be individuals who are dumb enough to make racially biased choices, but not many, and they don't have a big impact. If a GM does something dumb and passes on a great player for the wrong reasons, someone else will get him quickly.

 

[CalBear]

I think the position that "NFL teams just care about winning," and therefore we should assume that their are no inefficiencies in the way they evaluate and use players, is extremely naive. It's contradicted by everything we know about human behavior, not to mention everything we know about NFL football teams. In fact on this very board a large portion of the content is people deriding NFL teams for making what they view as market-inefficient decisions, which should never happen in an efficient market.

Markets aren't efficient, and most human decisions are made based on all kinds of unconscious biases, with rationale developed after the fact. That's how our brains work.

 

[Dr Oadi]

I cannot find the this is silly option. Or how about one drek thread deserves another? How the race card jumped the shark of look at me threads in 2014?

Hi bia,

The "this is silly" vote would be the one that is "no factor". I don't know that it's a bad topic though as I do think it's interesting to see what people think.

Thanks for being part of the discussion.

J

I think the other thread covered how people felt. Given the "unintentional" portion of this poll then the obvious answer is at the least Race is a slight factor in favor of the white QB being that whites are inherently racist.

 

[jurb26]

I think the position that "NFL teams just care about winning," and therefore we should assume that their are no inefficiencies in the way they evaluate and use players, is extremely naive. It's contradicted by everything we know about human behavior, not to mention everything we know about NFL football teams. In fact on this very board a large portion of the content is people deriding NFL teams for making what they view as market-inefficient decisions, which should never happen in an efficient market.

Markets aren't efficient, and most human decisions are made based on all kinds of unconscious biases, with rationale developed after the fact. That's how our brains work.

So basically you're saying every organization is bias or racist unconsciously. If true, the NFL would be no more or less at fault for this unparalleled human behavior. Still, that does nothing to address in what fashion the bias is coming from because we still have not defined the decision makers.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Markets aren't efficient, and most human decisions are made based on all kinds of unconscious biases, with rationale developed after the fact. That's how our brains work.

This is true, but it doesn't address the question of whether race is any different in that respect from red-headedness or left-handedness or being a Capricorn. The fact that subconscious biases exist in general is evidence neither for nor against the idea that black quarterbacks are likely to be drafted too low in today's NFL.

 

[humpback]

If Johnny Manziel were a black guy there's a chunk of the NFL that'd be singing a much harsher tune. The line between brash and uppity is only a few pigments wide.

You're talking about commentary here (and your premise is very debatable), but the question was about draft position.

 

[CalBear]

Markets aren't efficient, and most human decisions are made based on all kinds of unconscious biases, with rationale developed after the fact. That's how our brains work.

This is true, but it doesn't address the question of whether race is any different in that respect from red-headedness or left-handedness or being a Capricorn. The fact that subconscious biases exist in general is evidence neither for nor against the idea that black quarterbacks are likely to be drafted too low in today's NFL.

The specific point I'm making is that the idea that "the NFL is big money, therefore all decisions are made accurately to increase the team's chances of winning" has no basis in reality, and it's actually a fairly silly position to take given the existence of this message board, not to mention the Cleveland Browns.

I personally believe that race is one of the factors which affects people's perception of a player or coach (and NFL scouts and owners are people). There is a lot of science which supports that belief. I don't know of any science which supports the idea that we're race-blind.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I personally believe that race is one of the factors which affects people's perception of a player or coach (and NFL scouts and owners are people). There is a lot of science which supports that belief. I don't know of any science which supports the idea that we're race-blind.

We're talking about whether non-white quarterbacks are underdrafted (recently). I don't know that anyone's done the experiment, but one way to test the hypothesis would be to compare the relationship between draft position and something like PFR's approximate value for both white and non-white QBs over the past seven years or whatever. My guess is that there won't be a statistically significant difference between the two, but that would be a scientific way to approach it.

 

[Gandalf]

I don't know the answer but the nfl is so competitive I take comfort knowing that if a racist GM passes on a more talented player because of race, then that person will eventually be out of job. You just can't afford to take players based on skin color. And I say good riddance. The world is changing. Diversity is good for all organizations. Let's just worry about what people do on a football field and not how they look or sexual orientation or anything else.

 

[Gandalf the Grey]

Markets aren't efficient, and most human decisions are made based on all kinds of unconscious biases, with rationale developed after the fact. That's how our brains work.

This is true, but it doesn't address the question of whether race is any different in that respect from red-headedness or left-handedness or being a Capricorn. The fact that subconscious biases exist in general is evidence neither for nor against the idea that black quarterbacks are likely to be drafted too low in today's NFL.

Or you could assign a reasonable weight to all those possible variables and conclude that race-with all it's history and cultural implications, and recency, might be different from left handedness or being a red head or being a Capricorn.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Are we supposed to be keeping Gandalf and Gandalf the Grey distinct in our minds?

 

[CalBear]

I personally believe that race is one of the factors which affects people's perception of a player or coach (and NFL scouts and owners are people). There is a lot of science which supports that belief. I don't know of any science which supports the idea that we're race-blind.

We're talking about whether non-white quarterbacks are underdrafted (recently). I don't know that anyone's done the experiment, but one way to test the hypothesis would be to compare the relationship between draft position and something like PFR's approximate value for both white and non-white QBs over the past seven years or whatever. My guess is that there won't be a statistically significant difference between the two, but that would be a scientific way to approach it.

The sample sizes are way too small for that kind of approach to prove anything. And they're conflated with issues like the fact that a population that's discriminated against will get less of an opportunity to produce, so relative lack of production could just be a symptom of the same bias.

 

[Gandalf the Grey]

Are we supposed to be keeping Gandalf and Gandalf the Grey distinct in our minds?

Yeah, sorry, if I had remembered there was a Gandalf (and in hindsight I did), I wouldn't have chosen this one.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I personally believe that race is one of the factors which affects people's perception of a player or coach (and NFL scouts and owners are people). There is a lot of science which supports that belief. I don't know of any science which supports the idea that we're race-blind.

We're talking about whether non-white quarterbacks are underdrafted (recently). I don't know that anyone's done the experiment, but one way to test the hypothesis would be to compare the relationship between draft position and something like PFR's approximate value for both white and non-white QBs over the past seven years or whatever. My guess is that there won't be a statistically significant difference between the two, but that would be a scientific way to approach it.

The sample sizes are way too small for that kind of approach to prove anything. And they're conflated with issues like the fact that a population that's discriminated against will get less of an opportunity to produce, so relative lack of production could just be a symptom of the same bias.

Granted, the sample size is smaller than we'd like and there are potentially confounding factors, but if non-white QBs are being drafted too low, it should be obvservable in the recent data -- if not to a statistically significant extent, at least to some extent.

It would be good for someone who cares about the issue to do that exercise.

 

[Chase Stuart]

The idea that unconscious bias does not exist in the minds of GMs is untenable. Studies have shown that interviewers are more likely to give favorable reviews of candidates if the interviewer is drinking hot coffee than if he's drinking ice water. Thinking that race (or GMs) would be immune to such biases is pretty unlikely.

 

[Gandalf the Grey]

I personally believe that race is one of the factors which affects people's perception of a player or coach (and NFL scouts and owners are people). There is a lot of science which supports that belief. I don't know of any science which supports the idea that we're race-blind.

We're talking about whether non-white quarterbacks are underdrafted (recently). I don't know that anyone's done the experiment, but one way to test the hypothesis would be to compare the relationship between draft position and something like PFR's approximate value for both white and non-white QBs over the past seven years or whatever. My guess is that there won't be a statistically significant difference between the two, but that would be a scientific way to approach it.

The sample sizes are way too small for that kind of approach to prove anything. And they're conflated with issues like the fact that a population that's discriminated against will get less of an opportunity to produce, so relative lack of production could just be a symptom of the same bias.

Granted, the sample size is smaller than we'd like and there are potentially confounding factors, but if non-white QBs are being drafted too low, it should be obvservable in the recent data -- if not to a statistically significant extent, at least to some extent.

It would be good for someone who cares about the issue to do that exercise.

You would be wonderful candidate. Considering this was a pretty controversial few days in the Shark Pool, what a phenomenal way to jump start the forum. As a FBG staffer, think how much interest you would generate. And (all facetiousness aside-you are the smartest person on the site) the credibility would be unquestioned.

/wink

 

[jurb26]

The idea that unconscious bias does not exist in the minds of GMs is untenable. Studies have shown that interviewers are more likely to give favorable reviews of candidates if the interviewer is drinking hot coffee than if he's drinking ice water. Thinking that race (or GMs) would be immune to such biases is pretty unlikely.

Doesn't matter until we know who the "interviewers" are. Lol, coffee vs. ice water? I've done a lot of interview in my time and I can count on one hand the amount of people who have brought anything to drink in with them.

 

[bigmarc27]

The idea that unconscious bias does not exist in the minds of GMs is untenable. Studies have shown that interviewers are more likely to give favorable reviews of candidates if the interviewer is drinking hot coffee than if he's drinking ice water. Thinking that race (or GMs) would be immune to such biases is pretty unlikely.

Was it black coffee?I think the one thing I've learned in the past week is that contributors to this site should stick to football and leave their sociology 101 book at home. This became one of the most informational football sites on the web (note I specified football and not fantasy football) but garbage like this has me wondering what happened.

 

[GregR]

I think conscious racism in NFL decision making is non-existent, or near enough.

I don't know how much unconscious bias there might be based on race. I would assume they have the same amount of unconscious racial bias as the rest of the population. Maybe slightly less from working in a racially diverse business. If it does exist in the NFL, that doesn't mean it changes the results much if at all, though.

There are so many factors that go into a QB's evaluation. Someone could get a downgrade on interview or intangibles due to a racial or cultural bias on the part of the interviewer, but still end up ranked the same because it doesn't outweigh his accuracy, pocket presence, arm strength, size, speed, etc. As an example Cam Newton going #1 isn't evidence of bias and it isn't evidence of a lack of bias. All we can say definitively is that if there was bias on the Panthers, it wasn't so powerful that it trumped the other factors enough to drop Newton below the Panther's #2 prospect.

I voted slightly favors whites, but it might be very slight. It wouldn't surprise me if no black QBs have had their draft spot affected by it in recent years.

But I do think almost everyone has racial or cultural bias to some degree. Some have it bad and hopefully get weeded out before joining an NFL front office or any job that involves hiring decisions. Some it is more slight. Some are very conscious of it and so limit how much it affects their decisions. I hope the NFL, everyone really, are in the latter camp.