Hello all. We are once again in the deep throes of the offseason. Last season, to give us something to talk about as well as creating a useful tool, I hosted the Community Rankings slot by slot series of 48 polls. I think most who participated felt this was a pretty successful enterprise. If you look back at our final results, I think, as a group, we did as good or better than any other contemporaneous rankings that I have seen (in hindsight). We were not perfect, however. For example, we probably undervalued Tyreek Hill (pick 4.12). What specific aspect about him did we get wrong? Was that because we did not adequately appreciate his physical talent, football skills, his opportunity or all three?
This year, my (our goal, if you choose to assist) is to create a common Shark Pool language and scale for evaluation of players. This should allow us to see how well we (as individuals and as a group),evaluate and prioritize those three attributes (physical talent, football skills, or his opportunity).
Below I have detailed a multi step process for us to use to determine values. Take a look at the methodology and let me know of any glaring errors. Please do not get picky about this... I am sure each and every one of you has different terms and categories you might use... I am just asking to make this something all of us can live with for the process. Also, the basis for your opinion is up to you... it can come from stats analysis, watching games, what you read from someone else, or just your gut. All opinions are welcome. The discussion in the thread under the polls will allow folks to justify their basis or challenge other's if they want, but that is tangential to the primary goal.
If enough of you agree, i will devise a poll system to allow you to quickly assign the values for the player under discussion and then tabulate those values. Any of you can nominate which player you would like the group to evaluate next. I expect to set up at least ten players at a time so we can get through as many as possible.
I look forward to your thoughts before we get this going.
Thanks, Brisco
The Method:
Step One: Assign a Physical Ability (PA) Score using the Scoring Chart below and classify their play style (WR are speed or possession, QBs are frequent runners or primarily pocket passers)
Step Two: Assign a Football Skills (FS) Score using the two step process in Chart 2, below.
Step Three: Assign an Opportunity Score (OP) using the two step process in Chart 3, below. This is as far as you will need to go... the other steps will happen automatically since there is no more subjectivity.
Step Four: Add the PA, FS and OP scores - this is the players Current value
Step Five: Use Chart 4, below to determine the +3 and +5 values
Step Six: Add the current value to the +3 and the +5 values to determine the final Shark Pool Dynasty Score
CHART ONE
I. Physical Ability Scoring Chart - in this area we are looking at two things... measurable physical skills (combine type data + injury data). Injury data includes lingering effects of prior injuries, poor conditioning or wrong body style/frame, playing style as well as lack of weight room/offseason work ethic.
10 – Top 5 at his position in the NFL in terms of measurable physical skills (combine scores) with no negative injury data (or reason to predict injury such as play style).
9 – Top 5 with some injury data OR 6-10 with no injury data
8 – Top 5 with significant injury data OR 6-10 with some injury data OR 11-15 with no injury history
7 – 6-10 with significant injury history, 11-15 with some injury history, 16-20 with no injury history
6 – 11-15 with some injury history, 16-20 with some injury history, 21-25 with no injury history
5 – 16-20 with significant injury history, 21-25 with some injury history, 26-30 with no injury history
4 – 21-25 with significant injury history, 26-30 with some injury history, 30-50 with no injury history
3 - 26-30 with significant injury history, 30-50 with some injury history, 50+ with no injury history
2 – 30-50 with significant injury history, 50 + with some injury history
1 – 50+ with significant injury history
CHART TWO
II. Football skills - great athletes are not always great football players. They need to acquire certain game specific skills to excel. This area of evaluation looks at how well they have acquired those skills at this point in their career. Unlike physical abilities, which traditionally decline with age, football skills normally increase with each year of experience, although they do traditionally plateau after 3-5 years in the league. Since evaluating these skills is much more nuanced and subjective, our system also needs to be more nuanced that the single step chart we used for physical abilities. Football skills involves a two step process.
Football Skills Step One: For each of the fantasy performance skills listed below for that player's position, rate the player as either elite level (4 points), above league average for a starter in that position (3 points), at league average (2 points) or below league average (for an NFL starter remember) (1 point).
(Editors Note: I say fantasy performance skills so that we do not talk about secondary skills like pass-blocking for RBs in this category since it does not correlate directly into fantasy points, but is better captured in the next scale of Opportunity.)
For receivers (WR & TE), I think the top five key skills (all these lists are in no particular order)
a. Hands
b. Route running
c. Body control
d. Skills as a runner after the catch (or when used in a reverse or designated run)
e. Situational awareness – knows where the sideline is… knows to alter route when QB is in trouble/blitz
For RBs, I propose:
a. Vision
b. Hands
c. Pad level and impact strength (e.g. yards after contact)
d. Elusiveness
e. Situational Awareness – knowing when to be aggressive or when to wait for the hole to open up… when to take the carry wide or when to try to punch through the original hole
For QBs I propose:
a. Decision making & maturity under pressure/avoiding sacks & Interceptions
b. Vision (can he go through 2, 3 or more reads in 3 seconds)
c. Reading the Defense Pre-snap
d. Passing speed (speed of decision making plus speed of passing motion)
e. Running skills
Step Two: Add up your total points and then use the following scale
10 – 19-20 total points
9 – 17-18 total points
8 – 15-16 total points
7 – 13-14 total points
6 – 10-11 total points
5 – 9-10 total points
4 – 7-8 total points
3 – 5-6 total points
2 – 3-4 total points
1 – less than 3 total points
CHART 3
III. Fantasy Opportunity - Opportunity is by far the most varied, subjective evaluation. It follows a two step process like Football Skills, but uses the same five attributes for all players: Depth Chart/Competition; Secondary Skills/Versatility; Usage/Team Tendancies; Supporting Cast; and finally, Contract Status (we are dynasty after all).
Depth Chart/Competition
4=Clear Starter with no legitimate threat to your position on the roster/draft plan
3=Starter, but at least one talented competitor that could beat him out
2=non-starter, but expected to compete to become the starter
1=non-starter behind an established starter with years remaining
Secondary Skills/Versatility– blocking, avoiding fumbles, leadership
4=Elite – these skills will keep you on the field even if you struggle in your core skills
3=Above Average – these skills will allow you to be picked over equal competition
2=Average – these skills don’t help or hurt you
1= Below Average – your lack of these skills limit your touches/plays
Usage/Team Tendencies
4=Elite – you are the QB in a pass heavy offense, the top target in a pass heavy offense or a bell-cow RB in a run heavy offense
3=Above Average – QB in a balanced offense, a bellcow RB in a balanced offense, the top target in a balanced offense, the #2 target in a pass heavy offense, or you are part of an RBBC in an RB centric offense (they run/throw to RB enough to keep both busy.
2=Average – Non-running QB or #1 target in a run heavy offense, #2 target in an balanced offense, #3 target in a pass heavy offense, or 2 person RBBC in a balanced offense
1 = Below average (no QBs here because any starter has at least average opportunity) #3 target in a balanced offense, 2 person RBBC in receiver focused offense, 3 person RBBC
Supporting Cast (Consider the quality of the line, the targets (for the QB) + the distractions (e.g. a top RB makes life easier for a passer and vice versa), the ability of the Defense to get your offense back on the field and special teams on field position).
4=Elite
3= Above Average
2=Average
1=Below Average
Contract Status
4=All signs point to you being with the team for at least 4 more years, and it is a good position
3=Signs point to you being with the team at least 2 more years, and it is a good position
2=RFA at the end of this coming season on a good team for the player or UFA at the end of the season and the player is stifled at his current location.
1=UFA at the end of the current season or near the end of a long term contract with a unusually high salary cap cost on a good team.
For each of the skills, rate the player as either elite level (4 points), above league average for a starter in that position (3 points), at league average (2 points) or below league average (1 point). Add up your total points and then use the following scale
10 – 19-20 total points
9 – 17-18 total points
8 – 15-16 total points
7 – 13-14 total points
6 – 10-11 total points
5 – 9-10 total points
4 – 7-8 total points
3 – 5-6 total points
2 – 3-4 total points
1 – less than 3 total points
CHART 4
IV. Future Value
Okay, at this point we have three different scores of 1-10 for the player, the total of which gives you the players current score. All of this evaluation (except contract status) deals with the current situation for that player. To make this useful to dynasty we need to extend these evals into the future. I propose we look at 3 years (+3) and 5 years ( +5) into the future and the total of all three will give us his dynasty value/final Shark Pool score.
First, I can already here you saying that it is a fruitless exercise to predict value 5 years from now. I agree for the category of Opportunity, so it is not included in the +3 and +5 values. However, I think that we can use trends to tell us the path their Physical Ability and Football Skills scores will follow.
For RBs,
Age - Turning 26 = -1 Physical Ability(PA) score, turning 29= -2PA, turning 31 -2PA
Experience - +1 FS score after first year in the NFL +1 FS score after the 3rd year in the league
If we start with a 22 year old rookie RB with scores of PA-8, FS-4, and OP-5 making his CSP score a 17. His +3 score will be 14 (PA8 (no change) + FA6 (+1 year one and +1 year three) +0 for OP) and his +5 score will be 13 (minus one PA point because he went over age 26) giving him a final Shark Pool (dynasty) value of 44
If we start with a 26 year old vet RB with the same starting scores (PA-8, FS-4, and OP-5) his +3 score will be 10 (-2 PA, no change in FS) and his +5 score will be 8 (-2 PA) for a final Shark Pool score of 35
(Editor's Note that it does not matter that these are only trends and that there are exceptions... the zeitgeist controls player market value and it uses these trends at least subconsciously)
For WR, we should categorize the WR as being a (primarily) Speed WR or a Possession WR.
Speed WR - -1 PA point at age 27, -2 PA points at age 30, -1 PA point at age 34 (if they are still in the league at this point they will have converted to a possession receiver).
Possession WR - -1 PA at age 29, -1 PA at age 31, -2 PA at age 34.
Football Skills for both will be +1 after year one, year two, and year three.
If we start with a 22 year old rookie speed WR with same scores as our RBs of PA-8, FS-4, and OP-5 making his CSP score a 17. His +3 score will be 15 (PA8 (no change) + FA7 (+3 ) +0 for OP) and his +5 score will be 13 (minus one PA point because he went over age 27) giving him a final Shark Pool (dynasty) value of 45
If we start with a 26 year old speed WR with the same starting score (PA-8 + FS-4 + OP-5=17) his +3 score will be 11 (-1 PA, no change in FS) and his +5 score will be 9 (-2 PA) for a final Shark Pool score of 37
Switch both to possession WR with the same initial scores and the final scores are 46 and 38 fopr starting ages of 22 and 26 respectively
For QB you have to separate them into runners or primarily pocket passers.
For running QBs, -1 PA point age 25, -2 age 29 but then (if they are still playing) they will have converted to pocket passers and will not lose another point until age 34.
Primarily Pocket Passers - -1 PA at age 27, -1 PA at age 30, -1 at age 34.
Football skills for both will be +1 after year one of starting, +1 after year three and +1 after year five.
This year, my (our goal, if you choose to assist) is to create a common Shark Pool language and scale for evaluation of players. This should allow us to see how well we (as individuals and as a group),evaluate and prioritize those three attributes (physical talent, football skills, or his opportunity).
Below I have detailed a multi step process for us to use to determine values. Take a look at the methodology and let me know of any glaring errors. Please do not get picky about this... I am sure each and every one of you has different terms and categories you might use... I am just asking to make this something all of us can live with for the process. Also, the basis for your opinion is up to you... it can come from stats analysis, watching games, what you read from someone else, or just your gut. All opinions are welcome. The discussion in the thread under the polls will allow folks to justify their basis or challenge other's if they want, but that is tangential to the primary goal.
If enough of you agree, i will devise a poll system to allow you to quickly assign the values for the player under discussion and then tabulate those values. Any of you can nominate which player you would like the group to evaluate next. I expect to set up at least ten players at a time so we can get through as many as possible.
I look forward to your thoughts before we get this going.
Thanks, Brisco
The Method:
Step One: Assign a Physical Ability (PA) Score using the Scoring Chart below and classify their play style (WR are speed or possession, QBs are frequent runners or primarily pocket passers)
Step Two: Assign a Football Skills (FS) Score using the two step process in Chart 2, below.
Step Three: Assign an Opportunity Score (OP) using the two step process in Chart 3, below. This is as far as you will need to go... the other steps will happen automatically since there is no more subjectivity.
Step Four: Add the PA, FS and OP scores - this is the players Current value
Step Five: Use Chart 4, below to determine the +3 and +5 values
Step Six: Add the current value to the +3 and the +5 values to determine the final Shark Pool Dynasty Score
CHART ONE
I. Physical Ability Scoring Chart - in this area we are looking at two things... measurable physical skills (combine type data + injury data). Injury data includes lingering effects of prior injuries, poor conditioning or wrong body style/frame, playing style as well as lack of weight room/offseason work ethic.
10 – Top 5 at his position in the NFL in terms of measurable physical skills (combine scores) with no negative injury data (or reason to predict injury such as play style).
9 – Top 5 with some injury data OR 6-10 with no injury data
8 – Top 5 with significant injury data OR 6-10 with some injury data OR 11-15 with no injury history
7 – 6-10 with significant injury history, 11-15 with some injury history, 16-20 with no injury history
6 – 11-15 with some injury history, 16-20 with some injury history, 21-25 with no injury history
5 – 16-20 with significant injury history, 21-25 with some injury history, 26-30 with no injury history
4 – 21-25 with significant injury history, 26-30 with some injury history, 30-50 with no injury history
3 - 26-30 with significant injury history, 30-50 with some injury history, 50+ with no injury history
2 – 30-50 with significant injury history, 50 + with some injury history
1 – 50+ with significant injury history
CHART TWO
II. Football skills - great athletes are not always great football players. They need to acquire certain game specific skills to excel. This area of evaluation looks at how well they have acquired those skills at this point in their career. Unlike physical abilities, which traditionally decline with age, football skills normally increase with each year of experience, although they do traditionally plateau after 3-5 years in the league. Since evaluating these skills is much more nuanced and subjective, our system also needs to be more nuanced that the single step chart we used for physical abilities. Football skills involves a two step process.
Football Skills Step One: For each of the fantasy performance skills listed below for that player's position, rate the player as either elite level (4 points), above league average for a starter in that position (3 points), at league average (2 points) or below league average (for an NFL starter remember) (1 point).
(Editors Note: I say fantasy performance skills so that we do not talk about secondary skills like pass-blocking for RBs in this category since it does not correlate directly into fantasy points, but is better captured in the next scale of Opportunity.)
For receivers (WR & TE), I think the top five key skills (all these lists are in no particular order)
a. Hands
b. Route running
c. Body control
d. Skills as a runner after the catch (or when used in a reverse or designated run)
e. Situational awareness – knows where the sideline is… knows to alter route when QB is in trouble/blitz
For RBs, I propose:
a. Vision
b. Hands
c. Pad level and impact strength (e.g. yards after contact)
d. Elusiveness
e. Situational Awareness – knowing when to be aggressive or when to wait for the hole to open up… when to take the carry wide or when to try to punch through the original hole
For QBs I propose:
a. Decision making & maturity under pressure/avoiding sacks & Interceptions
b. Vision (can he go through 2, 3 or more reads in 3 seconds)
c. Reading the Defense Pre-snap
d. Passing speed (speed of decision making plus speed of passing motion)
e. Running skills
Step Two: Add up your total points and then use the following scale
10 – 19-20 total points
9 – 17-18 total points
8 – 15-16 total points
7 – 13-14 total points
6 – 10-11 total points
5 – 9-10 total points
4 – 7-8 total points
3 – 5-6 total points
2 – 3-4 total points
1 – less than 3 total points
CHART 3
III. Fantasy Opportunity - Opportunity is by far the most varied, subjective evaluation. It follows a two step process like Football Skills, but uses the same five attributes for all players: Depth Chart/Competition; Secondary Skills/Versatility; Usage/Team Tendancies; Supporting Cast; and finally, Contract Status (we are dynasty after all).
Depth Chart/Competition
4=Clear Starter with no legitimate threat to your position on the roster/draft plan
3=Starter, but at least one talented competitor that could beat him out
2=non-starter, but expected to compete to become the starter
1=non-starter behind an established starter with years remaining
Secondary Skills/Versatility– blocking, avoiding fumbles, leadership
4=Elite – these skills will keep you on the field even if you struggle in your core skills
3=Above Average – these skills will allow you to be picked over equal competition
2=Average – these skills don’t help or hurt you
1= Below Average – your lack of these skills limit your touches/plays
Usage/Team Tendencies
4=Elite – you are the QB in a pass heavy offense, the top target in a pass heavy offense or a bell-cow RB in a run heavy offense
3=Above Average – QB in a balanced offense, a bellcow RB in a balanced offense, the top target in a balanced offense, the #2 target in a pass heavy offense, or you are part of an RBBC in an RB centric offense (they run/throw to RB enough to keep both busy.
2=Average – Non-running QB or #1 target in a run heavy offense, #2 target in an balanced offense, #3 target in a pass heavy offense, or 2 person RBBC in a balanced offense
1 = Below average (no QBs here because any starter has at least average opportunity) #3 target in a balanced offense, 2 person RBBC in receiver focused offense, 3 person RBBC
Supporting Cast (Consider the quality of the line, the targets (for the QB) + the distractions (e.g. a top RB makes life easier for a passer and vice versa), the ability of the Defense to get your offense back on the field and special teams on field position).
4=Elite
3= Above Average
2=Average
1=Below Average
Contract Status
4=All signs point to you being with the team for at least 4 more years, and it is a good position
3=Signs point to you being with the team at least 2 more years, and it is a good position
2=RFA at the end of this coming season on a good team for the player or UFA at the end of the season and the player is stifled at his current location.
1=UFA at the end of the current season or near the end of a long term contract with a unusually high salary cap cost on a good team.
For each of the skills, rate the player as either elite level (4 points), above league average for a starter in that position (3 points), at league average (2 points) or below league average (1 point). Add up your total points and then use the following scale
10 – 19-20 total points
9 – 17-18 total points
8 – 15-16 total points
7 – 13-14 total points
6 – 10-11 total points
5 – 9-10 total points
4 – 7-8 total points
3 – 5-6 total points
2 – 3-4 total points
1 – less than 3 total points
CHART 4
IV. Future Value
Okay, at this point we have three different scores of 1-10 for the player, the total of which gives you the players current score. All of this evaluation (except contract status) deals with the current situation for that player. To make this useful to dynasty we need to extend these evals into the future. I propose we look at 3 years (+3) and 5 years ( +5) into the future and the total of all three will give us his dynasty value/final Shark Pool score.
First, I can already here you saying that it is a fruitless exercise to predict value 5 years from now. I agree for the category of Opportunity, so it is not included in the +3 and +5 values. However, I think that we can use trends to tell us the path their Physical Ability and Football Skills scores will follow.
For RBs,
Age - Turning 26 = -1 Physical Ability(PA) score, turning 29= -2PA, turning 31 -2PA
Experience - +1 FS score after first year in the NFL +1 FS score after the 3rd year in the league
If we start with a 22 year old rookie RB with scores of PA-8, FS-4, and OP-5 making his CSP score a 17. His +3 score will be 14 (PA8 (no change) + FA6 (+1 year one and +1 year three) +0 for OP) and his +5 score will be 13 (minus one PA point because he went over age 26) giving him a final Shark Pool (dynasty) value of 44
If we start with a 26 year old vet RB with the same starting scores (PA-8, FS-4, and OP-5) his +3 score will be 10 (-2 PA, no change in FS) and his +5 score will be 8 (-2 PA) for a final Shark Pool score of 35
(Editor's Note that it does not matter that these are only trends and that there are exceptions... the zeitgeist controls player market value and it uses these trends at least subconsciously)
For WR, we should categorize the WR as being a (primarily) Speed WR or a Possession WR.
Speed WR - -1 PA point at age 27, -2 PA points at age 30, -1 PA point at age 34 (if they are still in the league at this point they will have converted to a possession receiver).
Possession WR - -1 PA at age 29, -1 PA at age 31, -2 PA at age 34.
Football Skills for both will be +1 after year one, year two, and year three.
If we start with a 22 year old rookie speed WR with same scores as our RBs of PA-8, FS-4, and OP-5 making his CSP score a 17. His +3 score will be 15 (PA8 (no change) + FA7 (+3 ) +0 for OP) and his +5 score will be 13 (minus one PA point because he went over age 27) giving him a final Shark Pool (dynasty) value of 45
If we start with a 26 year old speed WR with the same starting score (PA-8 + FS-4 + OP-5=17) his +3 score will be 11 (-1 PA, no change in FS) and his +5 score will be 9 (-2 PA) for a final Shark Pool score of 37
Switch both to possession WR with the same initial scores and the final scores are 46 and 38 fopr starting ages of 22 and 26 respectively
For QB you have to separate them into runners or primarily pocket passers.
For running QBs, -1 PA point age 25, -2 age 29 but then (if they are still playing) they will have converted to pocket passers and will not lose another point until age 34.
Primarily Pocket Passers - -1 PA at age 27, -1 PA at age 30, -1 at age 34.
Football skills for both will be +1 after year one of starting, +1 after year three and +1 after year five.
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