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IRS Apologizes For Targeting Conservative Political Groups In 2012 Ele (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Buddy Ball 2K3
- Start date
E Street Brat
Footballguy
This may be getting a lot bigger
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
So now it turns out that the IRS was also leaking confidential information to media sources friendly to the Obama administration. All just an honest mix-up by a low-level employee I'm sure.
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
The IRS: We apologize for the targeting of specific groups.
Obama (three days later): If specific groups were targeted, then I will be outraged.
A handful of reporters (the next day): Why did the president use the word "if" when the I.R.S. has already acknowledged that it is a fact that it happened.
Jay Carney: Um, uh....
Obama (three days later): If specific groups were targeted, then I will be outraged.
A handful of reporters (the next day): Why did the president use the word "if" when the I.R.S. has already acknowledged that it is a fact that it happened.
Jay Carney: Um, uh....
ericttspikes
Footballguy
pittstownkiller
Footballguy
So is criticizing victims as being self-victimized.
Hang 10
Footballguy
Self victimization? You wanna unpack this? Because the IRS has already admitted that these groups were real victims.
St. Louis Bob
Footballguy
You would never call this guy a R or a D. He's never done anything other than report stories. You just wouldn't know what his politcal leanings are.
My link
On a side note, 4-5 years ago a bunch of us were at a winery for some reason he showed up chaperoning his (very hot) daughter's bachelorette party. We were all very wasted and personally pretty high. It was very surreal to have him right next to us after seeing him on TV since I was a kid. All I remember a couple of my buddies hitting on some of the broads in the group and him getting all pissed off about it.
My link
On a side note, 4-5 years ago a bunch of us were at a winery for some reason he showed up chaperoning his (very hot) daughter's bachelorette party. We were all very wasted and personally pretty high. It was very surreal to have him right next to us after seeing him on TV since I was a kid. All I remember a couple of my buddies hitting on some of the broads in the group and him getting all pissed off about it.
E Street Brat
Footballguy
"Rules for thee but not for me!"
It's nice to see that the masks are finally coming off. The pretense of impartiality under the law given by most progressives was getting really old. Now at least we can all admit what some of us already knew, the institutional left in this country is willing to cross any line in order to expand its power and injure the political opposition.
http://www.propublica.org/article/irs-office-that-targeted-tea-party-also-disclosed-confidential-docs
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I'm sure Republican leadership will handle this issue with class and quiet restraint.wdcrob said:
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
The original defense that some folks tried running with was "Well, if you're going to screen a sub-set of applicants, you have to screen on something, and the Tea Party was a big thing around that time, so they just screened on those terms. That's unfortunate but it's just an honest screw-up." Glad to see that line has already been sent down the memory hole.
timschochet
Footballguy
This didn't bother me before but if the new stuff being reported is true, (about leaking the info to friendly reporters) then it's pretty serious stuff.
I hate to say it, because it always ends up being so political but....between this story and the AP mess, it's probably time for a special prosecutor. I suppose they can throw Benghazi in too, though there's nothing there that I can see. But these two stories may actually have some legs.
I hate to say it, because it always ends up being so political but....between this story and the AP mess, it's probably time for a special prosecutor. I suppose they can throw Benghazi in too, though there's nothing there that I can see. But these two stories may actually have some legs.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
If even just the stuff specifically discussed in the initial apology is true, we should all be outraged.
We should also be outraged at the number of political companies masquerading as tax-exempt companies, but that's a whole 'nother issue.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I don't agree with this one. The government created a highly artificial, subjective distinction between what sort of interest groups get to be tax-exempt and which ones don't. Anybody who is surprised to see organizations push the boundaries of this distinction frankly shouldn't be involved in crafting public policy.
ichris
Footballguy
IRS Office That Targeted Tea Party Also Leaked Confidential Docs From Conservative Groups
http://www.propublica.org/article/irs-office-that-targeted-tea-party-also-disclosed-confidential-docs
ETA: looks like this post is a dupe
http://www.propublica.org/article/irs-office-that-targeted-tea-party-also-disclosed-confidential-docs
ETA: looks like this post is a dupe
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ichris
Footballguy
Also, sensitive information was leaked to political opponents of the people in power. That's pretty serious too.
timschochet
Footballguy
No it really isn't. This stuff is bad news, but Bush started a useless war which costs hundreds of thousands of lives, weakened our position overseas, and ballooned our debt. It's hard not to consider Bush as one of the worst Presidents ever just for that act alone. This stuff is just more political shenanigans compared to that.
rockaction
Footballguy
If only they had a Debbie Wassmerman or Anthony Weiner or Al Franken or that guy from Florida who I'm not even going to bother to look up. Adults like Joe Biden or Chuck Schumer or Patty Murray or Pat Leahy or some other Senate leader so above partisan politics and mudslinging.wdcrob said:
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rockaction
Footballguy
Front page on WaPo. Last updated at 5:27 PM. This has now officially hit the land of serious business. The picture of Carney is priceless.
"But documents obtained by The Washington Post showed that IRS officials in Washington and at least two other offices were involved with investigating conservative groups seeking tax-exempt status and that the effort reached well beyond the branch in Cincinnati."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/holder-orders-fbi-justice-probe-of-irs/2013/05/14/7891fde6-bcc0-11e2-9b09-1638acc3942e_story.html?hpid=z1
"But documents obtained by The Washington Post showed that IRS officials in Washington and at least two other offices were involved with investigating conservative groups seeking tax-exempt status and that the effort reached well beyond the branch in Cincinnati."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/holder-orders-fbi-justice-probe-of-irs/2013/05/14/7891fde6-bcc0-11e2-9b09-1638acc3942e_story.html?hpid=z1
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
As of now1) The Cincinnati office of the IRS was responsible to approve and/or disapprove these applications.
1a) At least until this year[/s[
1b) An office in DC "processes the applications". The office in Cincinnati "reviews the applications".
2) Because anyone can claim that their message is "educational" based on the vague treasury department definition all of these purely political groups can call themselves social welfare organizations under this definition.
3) In the aftermath of the financial meltdown and the specifically the bailout a flood of new groups were created that decided to take advantage of this status.
4) In addition in the aftermath of Citizens United supreme court case these organization became popular as a means of funneling large sums of cash into the campaign anonymously (a quarter billion in 2012)
5) Those two factors doubled increased the number of applications in 2010 (give or take) by 2012 (I know I read doubled somewhere, but am missing a source)
6) In response to expanded workload the Cincinnati office created "red flags" to identify what applications to apply greater scrutiny.
7) These "red flags" (the keywords) in practice were biased against conservative organizations.
7a) We don't know if that was on purpose or not
7b) If it was on purpose we don't know if it was due to partisan politics, or simply the anti IRS nature of the groups, or both.
8) In June of 2011 (I think) the supervisor of this office learned of this practice and said "stop it"
8a)"Then-Commissioner Douglas Shulman, a George W. Bush appointee who stepped down in November, received a briefing from the TIGTA about what was happening in the Cincinnati office in May 2012, the aides said. His deputy and the agencys current acting commissioner, Steven T. Miller, also learned about the matter that month."
9) Around the same time Congress was told that such practices didn't exists.
10) I think we need to wait until Friday to read the report to learn if the inappropriate practices to identify who is scrutinized stopped or continued at this point.
11) The scrutiny, however is known to have continued for years.
12) That scrutiny clearly involved other IRS offices which at the very least were used to gather information.
13) Some of the information that was being requested is clearly inappropriate - donor list, email communications, etc.
14) Congress continued to ask the IRS and the IRS continued to state that there was no such practice to target conservative groups.
14a) This may have been "technically true" but it should have been clear that conservative groups were targeted from 2011 on in practice.
15) Congress in their frustration with the IRS asked for a Treasury Department investigation.
16) That investigation's report is supposed to be released on Friday. Is this it?
17) Last Friday in advanced of that report the IRS "came clean" to some minimal extent acknowledging what will be reported formally this Friday
18) None of the IRS employees, except for 2 positions - 1 currently unfilled can be fired by the executive branch (the president) simply as a reaction to this because they are protected as civil servants.
19) For heads to roll there will need to "be cause" which hopefully will be found in the Treasury Department's investigation.
20) On Friday I mistakenly posted that these organizations political spending was untaxed. I corrected that, but based on the letter (page 9) that is in the Washington Post article I believe that I was correct all along. None of these groups should be tax exempt. But I don't want that to be a function of IRS employees to decide based on vague criteria.
21) In the aftermath of the 2012 election the IRS inappropriately sent 9 applications that were still in process along with 22 applications that were approved and thus appropriate to release to the public in response to an information request.
21a)" publishing unauthorized returns or return information was a felony punishable by a fine of up to $5,000 and imprisonment of up to five years, or both."
21b) Redacted versions of 6 of these 9 applications were published.
22) 84% of the $322 million spent by such groups during the election was by conservative groups
23) Conservative groups apply for this status frequently, recent liberal groups have not.
Have some reading to do
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BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
In 2012, The Chicago Tribune reported on the IRS denying tax exempt status to a liberal political group,
The IRS announced in May and June that it took the actions against two groups defined as tax-exempt under the 501©(4) section of the tax code. The IRS on Thursday declined comment on its tax-exempt final rulings. Tax-exempt groups raising money for both major political parties ahead of the Nov. 6 election walk a fine line between promoting “social welfare” for tax-exempt purposes and purely political interests.
...
Reuters has obtained part of a yet to be released report from the Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration (TIGTA) that confirms that the IRS was targeting groups on the left and right who focused their activities on advocating for expanding or limiting of the size of the government. The report also states that the screening process was not influenced by the Obama administration, and that none of the groups screened were denied tax exempt status.
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mad sweeney
Footballguy
How DARE they unfairly target a demographic and force them to endure humiliating invasions into their personal and financial privacy! How DARE they?! Now excuse me, I need to get back to drafting bills to drug screen every welfare and food stamp recipient after I polish off new legislation requiring anal and ######l ultrasound before abortions
HOW DARE THEY!!!
NCC got it right on page 1. It's s serious problem. But the outrage on the Right (in the press and here) is downright absurd.
HOW DARE THEY!!!
NCC got it right on page 1. It's s serious problem. But the outrage on the Right (in the press and here) is downright absurd.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
It doesn't seem so absurd when the FBI has launched a criminal probe and even the President has taken a position of outrage if the allegations turn out to be true. It's a big scandal because enforcement of laws is supposed to be neutral. It comes from the executive - execution of legislatively crafted laws - branch. I'm not sure people here are getting that basic issue when they vent. That's why, according to the WaPo report, there's a bipartisan investigation right now. Because it implicates separation of powers issues, too, and Congress does not like having its toes stepped on.
People here seem to keep confusing -- probably understandably -- invasions or intrusions into privacy when it comes from an authorized body acting selectively (the legislative element) vs. a body (the IRS) specifically not authorized to act so selectively.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
I have skimmed the report. It is damning! But it does not even come close to supporting the rhetoric of the past few days. Anyone who works in an office where there are departments left to their own devices has seen what happened here.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
You're right that NCC got it right on page 1. And I'm sure that he'd prefer that you stop helping.
Everybody of goodwill ought to be able to agree that the IRS shouldn't be a political actor. There is no evidence at all that Obama or anybody in the Obama administration had anything to do with this. No need for people to jump to conclusions or get all defensive.
St. Louis Bob
Footballguy
Funny how everybody is glossing over how they are going after the Jews too.
St. Louis Bob
Footballguy
& Fairtax these archaic mother####ers into oblivion.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
I've been waiting since Friday for this post. You guys are slipping.
St. Louis Bob
Footballguy
Fennis
Footballguy
Fennis
Footballguy
Hang 10
Footballguy
What's the sufficient level of outrage for a serious problem such as this?
Fennis
Footballguy
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
FairTax is a pretty good, but not as great as it is sold solution to the tax side of the equation. Mix in some variation of this and we will really have small government (outside of the defense complex).
otello
Footballguy
St. Louis Bob
Footballguy
pittstownkiller
Footballguy
Thank God you aren't a Democrat, I could only imagine how you would spin those talking points.
St. Louis Bob
Footballguy
Fennis
Footballguy
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
But it does not even come close to supporting the rhetoric of the past few days.
The rhetoric that the executive branch was targeting political opposition is not supported by the report. The assumption that partisan politics were the motivating factors in the setting up of the shortcuts is similarly not supported. (It is refuted in the sense that IRS officials refute it so I won't go as far as saying it squashes this idea.)
Anyone who works in an office where there are departments left to their own devices has seen what happened here.
Tomorrow at 9AM I have meeting with a department that until about a year ago went about a decade without supervision. I attend these as an outside consultant although that is not technically true. What has happened over the past year has been the unraveling of user devised job rules and guides. This department, much like the IRS created much more work for themselves than was necessary. Like the IRS it created huge backlogs of works. Like the IRS it stopped working on the backlog for a good period of time to get to current stuff. Like the IRS it was demanding that others be timely while being inexcusably late in its own responses. Like the IRS it inappropriately ask for information it didn't need or was entitled. Like the IRS it inappropriately provided information. Like the IRS it had used inappropriate terminology on semi official documentation. Like the IRS the department focus on unnecessary or inappropriate task took them away from doing their real job.
Other than the fact that none of this departments actions will anyone not with this particular company ever care about (very much unlike the IRS), the sins here are pretty much the same. And I have believed all along the cause is pretty much the same. While I am certainly on the liberal side of the spectrum, it is the above experience (which has repeated many times over my career) that is the primary source of my "lack of management and oversight" bias. I'd say it is my liberal bias that is source of my hedging on this. That is if this was happening during the second term of a McCain presidency I would probably not be suggesting that I could be proven wrong at some point. (Though I could very well be trying to sneak in my own "over the top" partisan shots like this is what happens when you put people in charge of government that don't believe in government.)
mad sweeney
Footballguy
I dunno. That's the problem. The over the top outrage level from the Right over everything Obama has done means that even when they get something legitimate to be outraged about, they're at an outrage factor of ten million suns by now because they keep having to double up on the last thing they went overboard on.
