Is Marvin Harrison a product of the system? (1 Viewer)

[30283]

Would like to hear some thoughts on this. Marvin hasn't done much this year and at 34(IIRC) may be nearing the end of his run. How much has Marvin benefited from playing his entire career with and building such a good repor(sp?) with Peyton? Off the top of my head, it seems that Marvin never did very well in playoff games either, if anyone has some stats on this I would be interested to see. Is Harrison an elite talent, or are there a lot of WRs that would have done as well or better if they had the opportunity to play their entire careers with Manning? Perhaps we will learn more as the season goes along if Harrison continues to decline or misses more games, whether the Colts miss a beat. Your thoughts?

 

[Texican]

I think most great players are a product of the system to some extent. But Marvin is a great WR. Great hands, great routes, etc. But sure, being on the Colts with Indi helps quite a bit. Where would Jerry Rice be ranked if he were on say the old Bucs?

 

[Banger]

Would like to hear some thoughts on this. Marvin hasn't done much this year and at 34(IIRC) may be nearing the end of his run. How much has Marvin benefited from playing his entire career with and building such a good repor(sp?) with Peyton? Off the top of my head, it seems that Marvin never did very well in playoff games either, if anyone has some stats on this I would be interested to see. Is Harrison an elite talent, or are there a lot of WRs that would have done as well or better if they had the opportunity to play their entire careers with Manning? Perhaps we will learn more as the season goes along if Harrison continues to decline or misses more games, whether the Colts miss a beat. Your thoughts?

They would certainly miss a beat by having Gonzales/whoever starting in his place. Harrison is a sure fire 1st ballot HOF'er and yes he's an elite talent. Has he benefitted from playing with Manning? Yes. Has Manning benefitted by playing with Marvin? Yes.

 

[Wilbur Wood]

In ~ 1985 the JETS drafted Al Toon in the 1st round, I believe ahead of Jerry Rice, who went later in the 1st round to SF.

Al Toon had tremendous talent, worked hard, played the game the right way. He took a pounding over the middle and was tough. Unfortunately his skull was not tough enought and his career was cut short due to too many concussions.

Context can be critically important to success. Had Toon and not Rice been drafted by SF, I think that he would have had a HOF career and tremendous success. The West Coast offense would have been kinder to his noggin and I believe that the 49ers would have won Super Bowls with Toon (assuming he had stayed healthy). I am not saying that he necessarily would have duplicated Rice's numbers and he certainly in all likelihood would not have had Rice's "longevity" (which at some point in his late 30's actually had him become an Art Monk-like "compiler"). Rice's career would have taken a different path. Still a great player? Yes. Discussed in conversations as the "best ever"? No. Just my opinion but I think that Toon would have been considered the "better player" had they reversed teams.

Context makes a huge difference.

 

[thayman]

He is a product of the system to an extent. His numbers wouldn't be as good if he had a lesser QB throwing to him. But his routes are great, easiley one of the top 5 WR in the NFL.

Also his numbers are a bit down, but he has still been getting the targets. Prior to his injury he was not having a bad year, just starting out a bit slow, I'm looking forward to him turning it during the second half of the year.

 

[Pip's Invitation]

He was a stud in his two years before Manning was drafted. And also during Manning's rough rookie year. So yes, he's an elite talent, albeit one that became even more elite because of his QB.

 

[Chaka]

Does it really make a difference?

And how does the possibility that he may be in decline due to age change either opinion?

 

[switz]

Marvin is a tremendous WR, one of the best route runners EVER.

Has he benefitted from Manning, for a certainty. But even as a rookie with Jim Harbaugh he put up 700+ years. He's put up great numbers without a complementary WR until recently.

I'd argue vehemently that Manning has made all of his receivers look far better than they are - with the exception that Harrison is good on his own merits. Put him with any other decent QB, and he'd be a Hall of Famer - the same cannot be said of any other IND WR that has played during Harrison's tenure, including Wayne.

Are their WRs with more "natural talent" - for a certainty, Randy Moss comes to mind. But Harrison is in the company of Rice when it comes to work ethic and route running.

 

[LILB811]

We may not know today.

We may not know when he retires.

We may not know when hes being enshrined in Canton on the first ballot.

Marvin is an outstanding receiver. Playing with Peyton for so many years obviously is a tremendous asset, but I would never take anything away from this guy's career and what he has consistently accomplished.

Great hands, great route runner, great dedication to the game = the success he's had

 

[30283]

He is a product of the system to an extent. His numbers wouldn't be as good if he had a lesser QB throwing to him. But his routes are great, easiley one of the top 5 WR in the NFL.Also his numbers are a bit down, but he has still been getting the targets. Prior to his injury he was not having a bad year, just starting out a bit slow, I'm looking forward to him turning it during the second half of the year.

If he is healthy I think he will bounce back, he often seems to start the season slowly, but I would be interested to see the effect on the Colts offense if he missed a few more games. Would Manning's numbers take a hit, or would he spread it around more and not miss a beat. Say if Marvin were to miss the rest of the season and Manning's numbers took a big hit, you might argue that Harrison made Manning look better than he really is, and vice versa. Does anyone have Harrison's post season stats?

 

[Koya]

Great quickness, very good speed. Great work ethic and attention to detail.

EXCEPTIONAL hands.

BETTER THAN EXCEPTIONAL ROUTES.

I have never known a HoFer who is quite possibly top 5 EVER at his position be so underated. By calling him very good, even great, is underating Marv's ability and production.

Sure, having Manning helps... a TON. But how would J. Rice have faired if Boller were his QB?

 

[30283]

Does it really make a difference?And how does the possibility that he may be in decline due to age change either opinion?

It doesn't, it just felt like a good time to look back on his career

 

[Zoomanji]

He was a stud in his two years before Manning was drafted. And also during Manning's rough rookie year. So yes, he's an elite talent, albeit one that became even more elite because of his QB.

He was awesome before Manning got there with very poor QBs.

 

[The Man Who Met Andy Griffith]

In ~ 1985 the JETS drafted Al Toon in the 1st round, I believe ahead of Jerry Rice, who went later in the 1st round to SF.

Al Toon had tremendous talent, worked hard, played the game the right way. He took a pounding over the middle and was tough. Unfortunately his skull was not tough enought and his career was cut short due to too many concussions.

Context can be critically important to success. Had Toon and not Rice been drafted by SF, I think that he would have had a HOF career and tremendous success. The West Coast offense would have been kinder to his noggin and I believe that the 49ers would have won Super Bowls with Toon (assuming he had stayed healthy). I am not saying that he necessarily would have duplicated Rice's numbers and he certainly in all likelihood would not have had Rice's "longevity" (which at some point in his late 30's actually had him become an Art Monk-like "compiler"). Rice's career would have taken a different path. Still a great player? Yes. Discussed in conversations as the "best ever"? No. Just my opinion but I think that Toon would have been considered the "better player" had they reversed teams.

Context makes a huge difference.

Oh god, not another "Who's better: Al Toon vs. Jerry Rice" thread.

 

[30283]

In ~ 1985 the JETS drafted Al Toon in the 1st round, I believe ahead of Jerry Rice, who went later in the 1st round to SF.Al Toon had tremendous talent, worked hard, played the game the right way. He took a pounding over the middle and was tough. Unfortunately his skull was not tough enought and his career was cut short due to too many concussions.Context can be critically important to success. Had Toon and not Rice been drafted by SF, I think that he would have had a HOF career and tremendous success. The West Coast offense would have been kinder to his noggin and I believe that the 49ers would have won Super Bowls with Toon (assuming he had stayed healthy). I am not saying that he necessarily would have duplicated Rice's numbers and he certainly in all likelihood would not have had Rice's "longevity" (which at some point in his late 30's actually had him become an Art Monk-like "compiler"). Rice's career would have taken a different path. Still a great player? Yes. Discussed in conversations as the "best ever"? No. Just my opinion but I think that Toon would have been considered the "better player" had they reversed teams.Context makes a huge difference.

Interesting.

 

[bostonfred]

Harrison was excellent before Manning, and got off to one of the best starts of any rookie WR in history. As a rookie Manning got to throw to Marvin Harrison in his third year, a pro bowl TE in Ken Dilger, and Marshall Faulk, while being protected by multi pro bowler Tarik Glenn. The next year, the team added Jeff Saturday, another multi pro bowler, and replaced Marshall Faulk with Edgerrin James. The better question is how much Manning was a product of the system.

 

[30283]

From wikipedia:

Harrison was involved in one of the most infamous blunders in the history of the NFL playoffs. In the 2003 NFL playoffs, Harrison, against the Denver Broncos, caught a 20 yard pass from Peyton Manning across the middle. Deltha O'Neal, the Broncos cornerback who now plays with the Cincinnati Bengals, had forgotten to touch Harrison down, and Harrison stood up and continued running, eventually scoring on a fifty-yard touchdown play. Broncos head coach Mike Shanahan was infuriated with O'Neal and the rest of the Broncos defenders that were around Harrison, who helped clinch victory as the Colts went up 28-3. Indianapolis would eventually win 41-10 in a blowout. Harrison would finish that game against Denver with 7 receptions for 133 yards and 2 touchdowns, in his finest post-season performance to date. It is currently his only 100 yard performance in a postseason game and the only time he ever scored a touchdown in the playoffs.

So apparently, in his only postseason game ever to go over 100 and score a TD, 30 yards and 1TD was from a botched play. Why has Harrison come up small in the postseason so often?(in comparison to his regular season performances) More to do with Manning's failures(besides last year) in the postseason?

 

[Wadsworth]

Having watched Harrison play my Jags for years I can say that the system has helped, but that Marvin is an outstanding WR that would have done very well in any system. When I think Harrison, I think hands, routes, and brains. The hands and routes are well known, but he does as good a job as anyone at setting up a CB for a play later, he's done it to Rashean Mathis for years now. He'll bait him, bait him and then burn him. The guy is money with or without Peyton and the system.

 

[switz]

From wikipedia:

Harrison was involved in one of the most infamous blunders in the history of the NFL playoffs. In the 2003 NFL playoffs, Harrison, against the Denver Broncos, caught a 20 yard pass from Peyton Manning across the middle. Deltha O'Neal, the Broncos cornerback who now plays with the Cincinnati Bengals, had forgotten to touch Harrison down, and Harrison stood up and continued running, eventually scoring on a fifty-yard touchdown play. Broncos head coach Mike Shanahan was infuriated with O'Neal and the rest of the Broncos defenders that were around Harrison, who helped clinch victory as the Colts went up 28-3. Indianapolis would eventually win 41-10 in a blowout. Harrison would finish that game against Denver with 7 receptions for 133 yards and 2 touchdowns, in his finest post-season performance to date. It is currently his only 100 yard performance in a postseason game and the only time he ever scored a touchdown in the playoffs.

So apparently, in his only postseason game ever to go over 100 and score a TD, 30 yards and 1TD was from a botched play. Why has Harrison come up small in the postseason so often?(in comparison to his regular season performances) More to do with Manning's failures(besides last year) in the postseason?

Maybe it has to do with most playoff teams having the top defenses in the NFL, double covering Harrison, and Manning being good enough to use his other options. In fact, in review of Colts playoff games, a number of Peyton's picks were when he was forcing throws to Harrison.

 

[30283]

From wikipedia:

Harrison was involved in one of the most infamous blunders in the history of the NFL playoffs. In the 2003 NFL playoffs, Harrison, against the Denver Broncos, caught a 20 yard pass from Peyton Manning across the middle. Deltha O'Neal, the Broncos cornerback who now plays with the Cincinnati Bengals, had forgotten to touch Harrison down, and Harrison stood up and continued running, eventually scoring on a fifty-yard touchdown play. Broncos head coach Mike Shanahan was infuriated with O'Neal and the rest of the Broncos defenders that were around Harrison, who helped clinch victory as the Colts went up 28-3. Indianapolis would eventually win 41-10 in a blowout. Harrison would finish that game against Denver with 7 receptions for 133 yards and 2 touchdowns, in his finest post-season performance to date. It is currently his only 100 yard performance in a postseason game and the only time he ever scored a touchdown in the playoffs.

So apparently, in his only postseason game ever to go over 100 and score a TD, 30 yards and 1TD was from a botched play. Why has Harrison come up small in the postseason so often?(in comparison to his regular season performances) More to do with Manning's failures(besides last year) in the postseason?

Maybe it has to do with most playoff teams having the top defenses in the NFL, double covering Harrison, and Manning being good enough to use his other options. In fact, in review of Colts playoff games, a number of Peyton's picks were when he was forcing throws to Harrison.

Maybe, but many other top recievers have faced double coverage in the playoffs and put up big games(Rice, Moss, Owens, etc.) Why hasn't Marvin?

 

[Warlord]

Off the top of my head, it seems that Marvin never did very well in playoff games either, if anyone has some stats on this I would be interested to see.

Year Opp Result | RSH YD TD | REC YD TD---------------------+-----------------+----------------- 1996 pit L,14-42 | 0 0 0 | 3 71 0 1999 ten L,16-19 | 0 0 0 | 5 65 0 2000 mia L,17-23 | 0 0 0 | 5 63 0 2002 nyj L,0-41 | 0 0 0 | 4 47 0 2003 den W,41-10 | 0 0 0 | 7 133 2 2003 kan W,38-31 | 0 0 0 | 6 98 0 2003 nwe L,14-24 | 0 0 0 | 3 19 0 2004 den W,49-24 | 0 0 0 | 4 50 0 2004 nwe L,3-20 | 0 0 0 | 5 44 0 2005 pit L,18-21 | 0 0 0 | 3 52 0 2006 kan W,23-8 | 0 0 0 | 2 48 0 2006 bal W,15-6 | 0 0 0 | 4 45 0 2006 nwe W,38-34 | 0 0 0 | 4 41 0*2006 chi W,29-17 | 0 0 0 | 5 59 0---------------------+-----------------+-----------------TOTAL | 0 0 0 | 60 835 2

 

[NYCGangGreen]

Truth is , we could be saying Peyton is just a product of having some really good WR's.

Would Peyton being producing like he does with James Thrash and Roddy White as his Wr's????

Would Marv and Reggie be as productive with Cahd Pennington as their QB??? making them have to run underneath routes for 10 yds.

Fact is , Marv is a GREAT WR! Peyton is a GREAT QB!

 

[thayman]

From wikipedia:

Harrison was involved in one of the most infamous blunders in the history of the NFL playoffs. In the 2003 NFL playoffs, Harrison, against the Denver Broncos, caught a 20 yard pass from Peyton Manning across the middle. Deltha O'Neal, the Broncos cornerback who now plays with the Cincinnati Bengals, had forgotten to touch Harrison down, and Harrison stood up and continued running, eventually scoring on a fifty-yard touchdown play. Broncos head coach Mike Shanahan was infuriated with O'Neal and the rest of the Broncos defenders that were around Harrison, who helped clinch victory as the Colts went up 28-3. Indianapolis would eventually win 41-10 in a blowout. Harrison would finish that game against Denver with 7 receptions for 133 yards and 2 touchdowns, in his finest post-season performance to date. It is currently his only 100 yard performance in a postseason game and the only time he ever scored a touchdown in the playoffs.

So apparently, in his only postseason game ever to go over 100 and score a TD, 30 yards and 1TD was from a botched play. Why has Harrison come up small in the postseason so often?(in comparison to his regular season performances) More to do with Manning's failures(besides last year) in the postseason?

Maybe it has to do with most playoff teams having the top defenses in the NFL, double covering Harrison, and Manning being good enough to use his other options. In fact, in review of Colts playoff games, a number of Peyton's picks were when he was forcing throws to Harrison.

Maybe, but many other top recievers have faced double coverage in the playoffs and put up big games(Rice, Moss, Owens, etc.) Why hasn't Marvin?

I don't think it is Marvin slacking off in the playoffs, how many drops does he have? It's just a matter of the other WR being more productive, and Manning not doing so hot in the playoffs.

 

[tommyGunZ]

He's a product of the system and a product of Peyton Manning. Not even one of the top 20 WRs in history, IMO.

 

[matuski]

I would say that perhaps Randy Moss is the only great receiver I have seen truly indepent of the system he plays in.

 

[Sopranos]

You dont get top 5 hands ever from the system. He gets open and he catches it. Its all he focuses on. Not what he is going to do afterwards or a press conference or anything else. He is a football player that gets 100% of his talent and skills. Less than 5% league does that

 

[cjack]

I would say that perhaps Randy Moss is the only great receiver I have seen truly indepent of the system he plays in.

I don't know about truly independent. He wasn't so great in Oakland. But, point taken.

 

[switz]

He's a product of the system and a product of Peyton Manning. Not even one of the top 20 WRs in history, IMO.

I sure hope that's sarcasm...

 

[Fantaholic]

Marvin is a tremendous WR, one of the best route runners EVER.

Has he benefitted from Manning, for a certainty. But even as a rookie with Jim Harbaugh he put up 700+ years. He's put up great numbers without a complementary WR until recently.

I'd argue vehemently that Manning has made all of his receivers look far better than they are - with the exception that Harrison is good on his own merits. Put him with any other decent QB, and he'd be a Hall of Famer - the same cannot be said of any other IND WR that has played during Harrison's tenure, including Wayne.

Are their WRs with more "natural talent" - for a certainty, Randy Moss comes to mind. But Harrison is in the company of Rice when it comes to work ethic and route running.

Couldn't agree more. I have this convo often with friends of mine. Marvin is this era's Jerry Rice. They are students of the game. They have ridiculous work ethic. They are dedicated to the game and their respective team. They are all you can ask for in a true professional and role model. I think it's unfair to make comparisons that would depict them in different situations on different teams. They were drafted by their respective teams and they did all that could have been asked of them and more, period

 

[switz]

From wikipedia:

Harrison was involved in one of the most infamous blunders in the history of the NFL playoffs. In the 2003 NFL playoffs, Harrison, against the Denver Broncos, caught a 20 yard pass from Peyton Manning across the middle. Deltha O'Neal, the Broncos cornerback who now plays with the Cincinnati Bengals, had forgotten to touch Harrison down, and Harrison stood up and continued running, eventually scoring on a fifty-yard touchdown play. Broncos head coach Mike Shanahan was infuriated with O'Neal and the rest of the Broncos defenders that were around Harrison, who helped clinch victory as the Colts went up 28-3. Indianapolis would eventually win 41-10 in a blowout. Harrison would finish that game against Denver with 7 receptions for 133 yards and 2 touchdowns, in his finest post-season performance to date. It is currently his only 100 yard performance in a postseason game and the only time he ever scored a touchdown in the playoffs.

So apparently, in his only postseason game ever to go over 100 and score a TD, 30 yards and 1TD was from a botched play. Why has Harrison come up small in the postseason so often?(in comparison to his regular season performances) More to do with Manning's failures(besides last year) in the postseason?

Maybe it has to do with most playoff teams having the top defenses in the NFL, double covering Harrison, and Manning being good enough to use his other options. In fact, in review of Colts playoff games, a number of Peyton's picks were when he was forcing throws to Harrison.

Maybe, but many other top recievers have faced double coverage in the playoffs and put up big games(Rice, Moss, Owens, etc.) Why hasn't Marvin?

Could it be, as I said, that Peyton looks at other options, while those other WRs' QBs locked onto them? Just maybe?

 

[30283]

From wikipedia:

Harrison was involved in one of the most infamous blunders in the history of the NFL playoffs. In the 2003 NFL playoffs, Harrison, against the Denver Broncos, caught a 20 yard pass from Peyton Manning across the middle. Deltha O'Neal, the Broncos cornerback who now plays with the Cincinnati Bengals, had forgotten to touch Harrison down, and Harrison stood up and continued running, eventually scoring on a fifty-yard touchdown play. Broncos head coach Mike Shanahan was infuriated with O'Neal and the rest of the Broncos defenders that were around Harrison, who helped clinch victory as the Colts went up 28-3. Indianapolis would eventually win 41-10 in a blowout. Harrison would finish that game against Denver with 7 receptions for 133 yards and 2 touchdowns, in his finest post-season performance to date. It is currently his only 100 yard performance in a postseason game and the only time he ever scored a touchdown in the playoffs.

So apparently, in his only postseason game ever to go over 100 and score a TD, 30 yards and 1TD was from a botched play. Why has Harrison come up small in the postseason so often?(in comparison to his regular season performances) More to do with Manning's failures(besides last year) in the postseason?

Maybe it has to do with most playoff teams having the top defenses in the NFL, double covering Harrison, and Manning being good enough to use his other options. In fact, in review of Colts playoff games, a number of Peyton's picks were when he was forcing throws to Harrison.

Maybe, but many other top recievers have faced double coverage in the playoffs and put up big games(Rice, Moss, Owens, etc.) Why hasn't Marvin?

I don't think it is Marvin slacking off in the playoffs, how many drops does he have? It's just a matter of the other WR being more productive, and Manning not doing so hot in the playoffs.

I don't think # of drops is really a good indicator. Targets or % of targets converted might be better. If you're not getting open you're not going to get the ball thrown to you.

 

[30283]

He's a product of the system and a product of Peyton Manning. Not even one of the top 20 WRs in history, IMO.

I sure hope that's sarcasm...

of course it's not sarcasm, it's t-gunz

 

[shakeybarn]

Unless there are significant differences in the system, whereas the player continues with similar, moreover congruent performance... then they are not.

Otherwise, pure speculation.

You can beg the questions...

Tom Brady with Buffalo would do what? They get how many more wins a year?

LaDanian Tomlinson with Atlanta would do what? Their record improves to???

Joe Montana went to a decent Chiefs team at the end of his career, but after season-ending injury, changes teams, Chiefs go from a scoreless wild-card performance, to the AFC Championship, losing to the 2nd best team of that era. (sarcasm)

We've seen Favre in different environments (or perhaps when he doesn't have the painkillers)

He went from a guy who could post 4400/38/13 during his heyday era... to 3880/20/29 (he's on pace this year to go 4500/24/13).

Elway, for the guy's first 10 years he compiled 158 TDs and 157 INTs...and believe only threw for over 3,500 once. Then....... his final six years, posts 142 TDs to 69 INTs... uh-huh, that ain't "veternship"... you get that after 6 or 7 years as a starting QB, maybe sooner.

Oh, and QB who got CRRRRRRRRRRUSHED and no-showed in 3 Super Bowls, then somehow turns around and wins 2 in a row. Go figur'... veteranship I suppose.

EDIT... Elways first 3 SB performance: 2 TDs 6 INTs, last 2 SB performances 1 TD, 2 INTs... whoops. Tow rushing TDs in there count though, included the OVERRATED whirlybird one.

I think Marvin had good numbers, career breakthrough, pre-Manning, and obviously pre-Dungy.

 

[Doug Drinen]

He was awesome before Manning got there with very poor QBs.

He was a stud in his two years before Manning was drafted. And also during Manning's rough rookie year.

Harrison was excellent before Manning, and got off to one of the best starts of any rookie WR in history.

Where are you people getting this?His pre-Manning numbers looked a lot like Chris Sanders or Frank Sanders or Darnay Scott. Solid certainly, but I wouldn't call them excellent. His first 900-yard season was in his fourth year (Manning's second). And I'm hard pressed to understand what the bolded statement might be referring to. Harrison's rookie year:

+----------+--------+-------------+----+| WK  OPP  |  RSHYD |  REC   YD   | TD |+----------+--------+-------------+----+|  1  ari  |	 0  |	6	85  |  1 ||  2  nyj  |	 0  |	2	35  |  0 ||  3  dal  |	 0  |	3	16  |  0 ||  4  mia  |	15  |	4	11  |  0 ||  6  buf  |	 0  |	5	88  |  0 ||  7  bal  |	 0  |	1	20  |  0 ||  8  nwe  |	 0  |	4	42  |  0 ||  9  was  |	-4  |	2	18  |  0 || 10  sdg  |	 0  |	3	35  |  1 || 11  mia  |	 0  |	4	38  |  0 || 12  nyj  |	 0  |	3	39  |  1 || 13  nwe  |	 0  |	6	93  |  1 || 14  buf  |	 0  |	3	22  |  0 || 15  phi  |	 4  |	6   106  |  1 || 16  kan  |	 0  |	6   103  |  3 || 17  cin  |	 0  |	6	85  |  0 |+----------+--------+-------------+----+|  TOTAL   |	15  |   64   836  |  8 |+----------+--------+-------------+----+

 

[shakeybarn]

He was awesome before Manning got there with very poor QBs.

He was a stud in his two years before Manning was drafted. And also during Manning's rough rookie year.

Harrison was excellent before Manning, and got off to one of the best starts of any rookie WR in history.

Where are you people getting this?His pre-Manning numbers looked a lot like Chris Sanders or Frank Sanders or Darnay Scott. Solid certainly, but I wouldn't call them excellent. His first 900-yard season was in his fourth year (Manning's second). And I'm hard pressed to understand what the bolded statement might be referring to. Harrison's rookie year:

+----------+--------+-------------+----+| WK  OPP  |  RSHYD |  REC   YD   | TD |+----------+--------+-------------+----+|  1  ari  |	 0  |	6	85  |  1 ||  2  nyj  |	 0  |	2	35  |  0 ||  3  dal  |	 0  |	3	16  |  0 ||  4  mia  |	15  |	4	11  |  0 ||  6  buf  |	 0  |	5	88  |  0 ||  7  bal  |	 0  |	1	20  |  0 ||  8  nwe  |	 0  |	4	42  |  0 ||  9  was  |	-4  |	2	18  |  0 || 10  sdg  |	 0  |	3	35  |  1 || 11  mia  |	 0  |	4	38  |  0 || 12  nyj  |	 0  |	3	39  |  1 || 13  nwe  |	 0  |	6	93  |  1 || 14  buf  |	 0  |	3	22  |  0 || 15  phi  |	 4  |	6   106  |  1 || 16  kan  |	 0  |	6   103  |  3 || 17  cin  |	 0  |	6	85  |  0 |+----------+--------+-------------+----+|  TOTAL   |	15  |   64   836  |  8 |+----------+--------+-------------+----+

Actually, at the time.... 836/8 coulda been one of the greatest rook seasons in history at that time (think pre-boldin, pre-colston, pre-moss). So it's half correct.

 

[shakeybarn]

BTW, www.profootball-reference.com, has to be the quickest and easiet way to grab historical stats. Love it.

 

[thayman]

From wikipedia:

Harrison was involved in one of the most infamous blunders in the history of the NFL playoffs. In the 2003 NFL playoffs, Harrison, against the Denver Broncos, caught a 20 yard pass from Peyton Manning across the middle. Deltha O'Neal, the Broncos cornerback who now plays with the Cincinnati Bengals, had forgotten to touch Harrison down, and Harrison stood up and continued running, eventually scoring on a fifty-yard touchdown play. Broncos head coach Mike Shanahan was infuriated with O'Neal and the rest of the Broncos defenders that were around Harrison, who helped clinch victory as the Colts went up 28-3. Indianapolis would eventually win 41-10 in a blowout. Harrison would finish that game against Denver with 7 receptions for 133 yards and 2 touchdowns, in his finest post-season performance to date. It is currently his only 100 yard performance in a postseason game and the only time he ever scored a touchdown in the playoffs.

So apparently, in his only postseason game ever to go over 100 and score a TD, 30 yards and 1TD was from a botched play. Why has Harrison come up small in the postseason so often?(in comparison to his regular season performances) More to do with Manning's failures(besides last year) in the postseason?

Maybe it has to do with most playoff teams having the top defenses in the NFL, double covering Harrison, and Manning being good enough to use his other options. In fact, in review of Colts playoff games, a number of Peyton's picks were when he was forcing throws to Harrison.

Maybe, but many other top recievers have faced double coverage in the playoffs and put up big games(Rice, Moss, Owens, etc.) Why hasn't Marvin?

I don't think it is Marvin slacking off in the playoffs, how many drops does he have? It's just a matter of the other WR being more productive, and Manning not doing so hot in the playoffs.

I don't think # of drops is really a good indicator. Targets or % of targets converted might be better. If you're not getting open you're not going to get the ball thrown to you.

When I say drops I think it is a good indicator of how HE choked. Harrison can get a target, it doesn't mean it is a catchable pass.

 

[thayman]

He's a product of the system and a product of Peyton Manning. Not even one of the top 20 WRs in history, IMO.

I would love to hear that other 20+ WRs you would put above him.Of course I don't really expect you to ever answer. Since you are obviously clueless or

 

[Kevin Ashcraft]

Anyone notice when the OP registered.....

I'm just sayin'

 

[Ilov80s]

Harrison is as much a product of the system as the system is a product of featuring Marvin Harrison. In the history of the game, you rarely find a WR that possesses anything close to Harrison's route-running, hands, quickness, and body control.

 

[Doug Drinen]

Actually, at the time.... 836/8 coulda been one of the greatest rook seasons in history at that time (think pre-boldin, pre-colston, pre-moss). So it's half correct.

According to my calculations, 836 yards would have been the 34th-best rookie season at the time (in terms of receiving yards). He was only the fourth-best rookie in his own rookie year (Glenn, Kennison, and Keyshawn).

 

[Mikey16x]

Harrison is one of the greatest receivers of all time.. period.

 

[Doug Drinen]

BTW, www.profootball-reference.com, has to be the quickest and easiet way to grab historical stats. Love it.

I'm glad you're getting some use out of it. It's going to get a LOT better very soon.

 

[30283]

From wikipedia:

Harrison was involved in one of the most infamous blunders in the history of the NFL playoffs. In the 2003 NFL playoffs, Harrison, against the Denver Broncos, caught a 20 yard pass from Peyton Manning across the middle. Deltha O'Neal, the Broncos cornerback who now plays with the Cincinnati Bengals, had forgotten to touch Harrison down, and Harrison stood up and continued running, eventually scoring on a fifty-yard touchdown play. Broncos head coach Mike Shanahan was infuriated with O'Neal and the rest of the Broncos defenders that were around Harrison, who helped clinch victory as the Colts went up 28-3. Indianapolis would eventually win 41-10 in a blowout. Harrison would finish that game against Denver with 7 receptions for 133 yards and 2 touchdowns, in his finest post-season performance to date. It is currently his only 100 yard performance in a postseason game and the only time he ever scored a touchdown in the playoffs.

So apparently, in his only postseason game ever to go over 100 and score a TD, 30 yards and 1TD was from a botched play. Why has Harrison come up small in the postseason so often?(in comparison to his regular season performances) More to do with Manning's failures(besides last year) in the postseason?

Maybe it has to do with most playoff teams having the top defenses in the NFL, double covering Harrison, and Manning being good enough to use his other options. In fact, in review of Colts playoff games, a number of Peyton's picks were when he was forcing throws to Harrison.

Maybe, but many other top recievers have faced double coverage in the playoffs and put up big games(Rice, Moss, Owens, etc.) Why hasn't Marvin?

I don't think it is Marvin slacking off in the playoffs, how many drops does he have? It's just a matter of the other WR being more productive, and Manning not doing so hot in the playoffs.

I don't think # of drops is really a good indicator. Targets or % of targets converted might be better. If you're not getting open you're not going to get the ball thrown to you.

When I say drops I think it is a good indicator of how HE choked. Harrison can get a target, it doesn't mean it is a catchable pass.

But what about # of targets? If you're not getting open, you're not going to get targets. I would probably consider not getting open or in position to get targets as 'choking.'

 

[thayman]

From wikipedia:

Harrison was involved in one of the most infamous blunders in the history of the NFL playoffs. In the 2003 NFL playoffs, Harrison, against the Denver Broncos, caught a 20 yard pass from Peyton Manning across the middle. Deltha O'Neal, the Broncos cornerback who now plays with the Cincinnati Bengals, had forgotten to touch Harrison down, and Harrison stood up and continued running, eventually scoring on a fifty-yard touchdown play. Broncos head coach Mike Shanahan was infuriated with O'Neal and the rest of the Broncos defenders that were around Harrison, who helped clinch victory as the Colts went up 28-3. Indianapolis would eventually win 41-10 in a blowout. Harrison would finish that game against Denver with 7 receptions for 133 yards and 2 touchdowns, in his finest post-season performance to date. It is currently his only 100 yard performance in a postseason game and the only time he ever scored a touchdown in the playoffs.

So apparently, in his only postseason game ever to go over 100 and score a TD, 30 yards and 1TD was from a botched play. Why has Harrison come up small in the postseason so often?(in comparison to his regular season performances) More to do with Manning's failures(besides last year) in the postseason?

Maybe it has to do with most playoff teams having the top defenses in the NFL, double covering Harrison, and Manning being good enough to use his other options. In fact, in review of Colts playoff games, a number of Peyton's picks were when he was forcing throws to Harrison.

Maybe, but many other top recievers have faced double coverage in the playoffs and put up big games(Rice, Moss, Owens, etc.) Why hasn't Marvin?

I don't think it is Marvin slacking off in the playoffs, how many drops does he have? It's just a matter of the other WR being more productive, and Manning not doing so hot in the playoffs.

I don't think # of drops is really a good indicator. Targets or % of targets converted might be better. If you're not getting open you're not going to get the ball thrown to you.

When I say drops I think it is a good indicator of how HE choked. Harrison can get a target, it doesn't mean it is a catchable pass.

But what about # of targets? If you're not getting open, you're not going to get targets. I would probably consider not getting open or in position to get targets as 'choking.'

Because if you cover Harrison all day long, Manning has no problem going to Wayne, or his TE, or check down to his RB. If the point is that Harrison chokes in the playoffs, I haven't seen where he is dropping passes, fumbling and choking. Until last year it has been more of a matter of Peyton choking rather than his WRsETA: Look at Wayne's numbers. He has also only had one game over 100 yards.

 

[30283]

Anyone notice when the OP registered.....I'm just sayin'

Alias, I'm really a 3-digiter I think Harrison is a great player, just thought it might make for some interesting discussion

 

[30283]

From wikipedia:

Harrison was involved in one of the most infamous blunders in the history of the NFL playoffs. In the 2003 NFL playoffs, Harrison, against the Denver Broncos, caught a 20 yard pass from Peyton Manning across the middle. Deltha O'Neal, the Broncos cornerback who now plays with the Cincinnati Bengals, had forgotten to touch Harrison down, and Harrison stood up and continued running, eventually scoring on a fifty-yard touchdown play. Broncos head coach Mike Shanahan was infuriated with O'Neal and the rest of the Broncos defenders that were around Harrison, who helped clinch victory as the Colts went up 28-3. Indianapolis would eventually win 41-10 in a blowout. Harrison would finish that game against Denver with 7 receptions for 133 yards and 2 touchdowns, in his finest post-season performance to date. It is currently his only 100 yard performance in a postseason game and the only time he ever scored a touchdown in the playoffs.

So apparently, in his only postseason game ever to go over 100 and score a TD, 30 yards and 1TD was from a botched play. Why has Harrison come up small in the postseason so often?(in comparison to his regular season performances) More to do with Manning's failures(besides last year) in the postseason?

Maybe it has to do with most playoff teams having the top defenses in the NFL, double covering Harrison, and Manning being good enough to use his other options. In fact, in review of Colts playoff games, a number of Peyton's picks were when he was forcing throws to Harrison.

Maybe, but many other top recievers have faced double coverage in the playoffs and put up big games(Rice, Moss, Owens, etc.) Why hasn't Marvin?

I don't think it is Marvin slacking off in the playoffs, how many drops does he have? It's just a matter of the other WR being more productive, and Manning not doing so hot in the playoffs.

I don't think # of drops is really a good indicator. Targets or % of targets converted might be better. If you're not getting open you're not going to get the ball thrown to you.

When I say drops I think it is a good indicator of how HE choked. Harrison can get a target, it doesn't mean it is a catchable pass.

But what about # of targets? If you're not getting open, you're not going to get targets. I would probably consider not getting open or in position to get targets as 'choking.'

Because if you cover Harrison all day long, Manning has no problem going to Wayne, or his TE, or check down to his RB. If the point is that Harrison chokes in the playoffs, I haven't seen where he is dropping passes, fumbling and choking. Until last year it has been more of a matter of Peyton choking rather than his WRsETA: Look at Wayne's numbers. He has also only had one game over 100 yards.

I am inclined to agree with you there. I would put more of it on the shoulders of Peyton than Marvin. Even last year, IIRC Manning wasn't stellar in the playoffs(except for the Pats game)

 

[switz]

He was awesome before Manning got there with very poor QBs.

He was a stud in his two years before Manning was drafted. And also during Manning's rough rookie year.

Harrison was excellent before Manning, and got off to one of the best starts of any rookie WR in history.

Where are you people getting this?His pre-Manning numbers looked a lot like Chris Sanders or Frank Sanders or Darnay Scott. Solid certainly, but I wouldn't call them excellent. His first 900-yard season was in his fourth year (Manning's second). And I'm hard pressed to understand what the bolded statement might be referring to. Harrison's rookie year:

+----------+--------+-------------+----+| WK  OPP  |  RSHYD |  REC   YD   | TD |+----------+--------+-------------+----+|  1  ari  |	 0  |	6	85  |  1 ||  2  nyj  |	 0  |	2	35  |  0 ||  3  dal  |	 0  |	3	16  |  0 ||  4  mia  |	15  |	4	11  |  0 ||  6  buf  |	 0  |	5	88  |  0 ||  7  bal  |	 0  |	1	20  |  0 ||  8  nwe  |	 0  |	4	42  |  0 ||  9  was  |	-4  |	2	18  |  0 || 10  sdg  |	 0  |	3	35  |  1 || 11  mia  |	 0  |	4	38  |  0 || 12  nyj  |	 0  |	3	39  |  1 || 13  nwe  |	 0  |	6	93  |  1 || 14  buf  |	 0  |	3	22  |  0 || 15  phi  |	 4  |	6   106  |  1 || 16  kan  |	 0  |	6   103  |  3 || 17  cin  |	 0  |	6	85  |  0 |+----------+--------+-------------+----+|  TOTAL   |	15  |   64   836  |  8 |+----------+--------+-------------+----+

Quick - outside of Moss, Colston, and Boldin - name a better rookie season.

 

[bostonfred]

Harrison was excellent before Manning, and got off to one of the best starts of any rookie WR in history.

Where are you people getting this?I'm hard pressed to understand what the bolded statement might be referring to. Harrison's rookie year:

Only a handful of rookie WRs had had a better fantasy season than Harrison when he came out. Harrison was 9th in receptions, 25th in receiving yards, and 15th in receiving TDs among all time rookie receivers. There's really a pretty small number of receivers in history who looked better than Harrison coming out. Since then, Randy Moss, Anquan Boldin, Michael Clayton, and Marques Colston have all had huge rookie campaigns. But he had a pretty huge campaign as a rookie, then followed it up with a similar second year. There aren't too many receivers who have come onto the scene as strongly as he did.

 

[bostonfred]

Actually, at the time.... 836/8 coulda been one of the greatest rook seasons in history at that time (think pre-boldin, pre-colston, pre-moss). So it's half correct.

According to my calculations, 836 yards would have been the 34th-best rookie season at the time (in terms of receiving yards). He was only the fourth-best rookie in his own rookie year (Glenn, Kennison, and Keyshawn).

25th, according to the historical data dominator.