Is McNabb better than an average qb? (1 Viewer)

[Buzzcut]

My premise is that everytime McNabb gets hurt (which has been often) someone has stepped in and played just as well. Is McNabbs career numbers do to Andy Reid's playcalling, gameplanning, and surrounding cast. Think about it. Feeley, Detmer, Garcia and now Kolb have all stepped in at one time or another and done almost as well or better. Heck Garcia stepped in after stinkin it up with the two teams before (Detroit and Cleve) and turned their year around and led them to the playoffs a couple years ago. Maybe some stat guy could look it up, but under Andy Reid what is Philas record when McNabb has started in comparision to when McNabb has been hurt and someone else filled in. Maybe Rush was right and that McNabb is just an average qb overhyped by the media. What are your thoughts?

 

[jon_mx]

Rush was wrong. McNabb is actually a slightly above average QB.

 

[JuniorNB]

I'd put him around #7 in the NFL.

1. P. Manning

2. Brees

3. Rothleisberger

4. Brady

5. Rivers

6. E. Manning

7. McNabb

8. Favre

9. Rodgers

10. Flacco

11. Ryan

12. Warner

13. Romo

14. Schaub

15. Palmer

 

[Sinrman]

He's definitely an above average QB. It seems like every time he approaches "elite" status, he gets hurt...

 

[strong]

i disagree that his backups have performed just as good as him.

he has a career record of 82-45 (and 1)

his backups are 12-10

the only time his backup came in when he was hurt and played nearly as good of him was 2006 with garcia--and mcnabb beat him at every metric that season except INT rate and barely got nudged out in qb rating because garcia hardly threw any picks. just because the eagles won that year, though, i don't think garcia was a better qb.

of course, just because the backups haven't played as well as the started shouldn't be a shock, but it's not like he's easily replaceable.

 

[SSOG]

He's definitely an above average QB. It seems like every time he approaches "elite" status, he gets hurt...

He doesn't "approach" elite status. He's always elite, he's just not always on the field.

 

[ttea]

What surrounding cast are we talking about, Hank Baskett?

Certainly Andy Reid has something to do with it, but I've never seen a quarterback do more with less, with the exception of maybe Marino.

Take a look at his 2004 season with T.O. it's not hard to imagine the type of career he would have if he had a decent target to throw to.

The Garcia argument isn't very exact, considering Garcia came from the 49ers system, which he had great success.

Andy Reid comes from the whole west coast offense/Bill Walsh coaching tree, so that certainly holds some weight with the Garcia argument.

I definitely don't see how the media has hyped up McNabb. He's never been spoken of with the likes of Peyton or Brady.

If anything he's been nit picked for his failures rather than his success.

 

[SSOG]

What surrounding cast are we talking about, Hank Baskett?Certainly Andy Reid has something to do with it, but I've never seen a quarterback do more with less, with the exception of maybe Marino.Take a look at his 2004 season with T.O. it's not hard to imagine the type of career he would have if he had a decent target to throw to. The Garcia argument isn't very exact, considering Garcia came from the 49ers system, which he had great success. Andy Reid comes from the whole west coast offense/Bill Walsh coaching tree, so that certainly holds some weight with the Garcia argument.I definitely don't see how the media has hyped up McNabb. He's never been spoken of with the likes of Peyton or Brady. If anything he's been nit picked for his failures rather than his success.

Dan Marino? Dan Marino's receivers made 11 pro bowls in his first decade in the league. Mark Clayton and Mark Duper both finished their careers with 8800+ yards receiving. His offensive linemen made 13 pro bowls and 6 first-team AP All Pros during Marino's first decade alone.Meanwhile, outside of Terrell Owens' one pro bowl in Philly, the only Philly "receivers" to make the pro bowl with McNabb on the team were TE Chad Lewis and RB Brian Westbrook, and Philly has only sent a lineman to the pro bowl six times in the McNabb era.

 

[ttea]

What surrounding cast are we talking about, Hank Baskett?Certainly Andy Reid has something to do with it, but I've never seen a quarterback do more with less, with the exception of maybe Marino.Take a look at his 2004 season with T.O. it's not hard to imagine the type of career he would have if he had a decent target to throw to. The Garcia argument isn't very exact, considering Garcia came from the 49ers system, which he had great success. Andy Reid comes from the whole west coast offense/Bill Walsh coaching tree, so that certainly holds some weight with the Garcia argument.I definitely don't see how the media has hyped up McNabb. He's never been spoken of with the likes of Peyton or Brady. If anything he's been nit picked for his failures rather than his success.

Dan Marino? Dan Marino's receivers made 11 pro bowls in his first decade in the league. Mark Clayton and Mark Duper both finished their careers with 8800+ yards receiving. His offensive linemen made 13 pro bowls and 6 first-team AP All Pros during Marino's first decade alone.Meanwhile, outside of Terrell Owens' one pro bowl in Philly, the only Philly "receivers" to make the pro bowl with McNabb on the team were TE Chad Lewis and RB Brian Westbrook, and Philly has only sent a lineman to the pro bowl six times in the McNabb era.

Although I knew the Dolphins o-line was good, I didn't realize it was that good, I'll give you that.Certainly the "Marks" are not Hank Basket and Kevin Curtis... but they're not T.O. either.If anything, you just made my point even stronger.

 

[theglorydays]

What surrounding cast are we talking about, Hank Baskett?Certainly Andy Reid has something to do with it, but I've never seen a quarterback do more with less, with the exception of maybe Marino.Take a look at his 2004 season with T.O. it's not hard to imagine the type of career he would have if he had a decent target to throw to. The Garcia argument isn't very exact, considering Garcia came from the 49ers system, which he had great success. Andy Reid comes from the whole west coast offense/Bill Walsh coaching tree, so that certainly holds some weight with the Garcia argument.I definitely don't see how the media has hyped up McNabb. He's never been spoken of with the likes of Peyton or Brady. If anything he's been nit picked for his failures rather than his success.

Dan Marino? Dan Marino's receivers made 11 pro bowls in his first decade in the league. Mark Clayton and Mark Duper both finished their careers with 8800+ yards receiving. His offensive linemen made 13 pro bowls and 6 first-team AP All Pros during Marino's first decade alone.Meanwhile, outside of Terrell Owens' one pro bowl in Philly, the only Philly "receivers" to make the pro bowl with McNabb on the team were TE Chad Lewis and RB Brian Westbrook, and Philly has only sent a lineman to the pro bowl six times in the McNabb era.

Although I knew the Dolphins o-line was good, I didn't realize it was that good, I'll give you that.Certainly the "Marks" are not Hank Basket and Kevin Curtis... but they're not T.O. either.If anything, you just made my point even stronger.

Marino was/is also known as the best quarterback ever at avoiding the rush. Although he could never tuck it and run, he was a master in the pocket. He also had the quickest release ever. All of those attributes helped to make his line look better IMO.

 

[SSOG]

If anything, you just made my point even stronger.

That was my intention.

Marino was/is also known as the best quarterback ever at avoiding the rush. Although he could never tuck it and run, he was a master in the pocket. He also had the quickest release ever. All of those attributes helped to make his line look better IMO.

Guys like Bob Keuchenberg and Dwight Stephenson didn't need Marino's help to look good.

 

[theglorydays]

If anything, you just made my point even stronger.

That was my intention.

Marino was/is also known as the best quarterback ever at avoiding the rush. Although he could never tuck it and run, he was a master in the pocket. He also had the quickest release ever. All of those attributes helped to make his line look better IMO.

Guys like Bob Keuchenberg and Dwight Stephenson didn't need Marino's help to look good.

I'll admit i don't really know much about Stephenson or Kuechenberg, but from what i pulled up neither guy even played for the majority of Marino's career. Kuechenberg retired after the 84 season and Stephenson after the 87 season. Now I do know Richmond Webb was a very good LT and he played with Marino for the majority of his career.Either way, I stand by my statement that Marino was the best quarterback ever in the pocket and had the quickest release of all time.

 

[editor47]

i had to chuckle at the thought that mcnabb's supporting cast made him.

i'd also rather have him as my QB than eli manning. every day of the week. (especially sunday and monday).

 

[jon_mx]

He's definitely an above average QB. It seems like every time he approaches "elite" status, he gets hurt...

He doesn't "approach" elite status. He's always elite, he's just not always on the field.

Always elite? He has had two seasons with a QB rating of above 90 and two below 80. So he has had two elite seaasns, 6 average seasons, and two poor seasons. Peyton has a career rating of 95 versus 85 for McNabb. McNabb produces some decent fantasy numbers, but he is not an elite QB, unless by elite you mean barely in the top 10.

 

[Da Guru]

What has held McNabb back is being so brittle. Hard to count of him for a full season.

 

[Mr. Retukes]

My premise is that everytime McNabb gets hurt (which has been often) someone has stepped in and played just as well.

McNabb's career stats:59% completion percentage, 218 passing yards & 23 rushing yards per game, 2.2-to-1 TD/INT ratio, 0.6 fumbles per game, 85.8 passer rating, 64% winning percentage (9-6 record in the playoffs).

Stats for McNabb's fill-ins:

56% completion percentage, 213 passing yards & 14 rushing yards per game, 1.1-to-1 TD/INT ratio, 1.2 fumbles per game, 74.4 passer rating, 54% winning percentage (1-1 record in the playoffs).

McNabb is superior in every category. The touchdown rate is especially glaring.

 

[ChargersOH]

None of Marino's weapons approached the skill level or abilities of Westbrook. Everyone here seems to be missing the 800 pound gorilla which is Westbrook.

Mcnabb is a good QB, but he certainly has benefitted by being in a great system with great coaches, Westbrook, and with Jim Johnson D's. This has been seen with Feeley and many others who were able to have success despite being average or worse QBs

That said he is not an average QB. He also is not an elite QB. He's somewhere in the middle.

The bigger issue is even if the media were to promote him as being better than he was, how is that any different than what they've done with Brady and others? Sports news is about hyperbole.

 

[finito]

Borderline Hall of Famer when it's all said and done.

 

[thriftyrocker]

There is an argument to be made that McNabb has actually been hobbled by the offense. He is not a WCO QB. He does not excel at making short, precise passes that are integral to the WCO. He does excel at moving around the pocket, making deep throws. The argument about a lot of college QBs is - are they just a system QB? I think it's obvious that's how Feeley, Kolb, and Detmer brothers have done ok in Reid's system, because the system fits their meager-to-average talents and the coaching staff can coach them up and pair them with a good-to-great defense. McNabb is a great talent who was put in a system that didn't fit him and he still looked like a good-to-great QB and borderline HOFer.

 

[drew726]

He's the Boldin of QB's.

 

[DenverBroncos]

Look at McNabb's stats over the past several years. He is one of the greatest QB's to play the game based on his stats.

 

[JuniorNB]

I agree with all threw of the last posts.

Boldin like- for sure. One of the best, but gets banged up too much.

Borderline HOFer? Probably. Another 2 or 3 good years with another trip to the NFC Championship game should do it. Another Super Bowl trip will guarantee it. A Super Bowl win will make it a first ballot.

He also is, in fact, a non-west Coast QB playing in a WC system. Remarkably successful when you take that into consideration.

By the way, if he gets into the Hall, he presents a very strong argument to be the HOF QB with the worst receiving corp throughout his career. Save for one year with TO, he's never had a great receiver, (although D.Jackson is heading in that direction)

 

[tomarken]

If we define an "average" NFL QB as one who has taken his team to the conference championship game five out of the last eight years, then no, he is not better than an average QB.

 

[meatwad1]

What surrounding cast are we talking about, Hank Baskett?Certainly Andy Reid has something to do with it, but I've never seen a quarterback do more with less, with the exception of maybe Marino.Take a look at his 2004 season with T.O. it's not hard to imagine the type of career he would have if he had a decent target to throw to. The Garcia argument isn't very exact, considering Garcia came from the 49ers system, which he had great success. Andy Reid comes from the whole west coast offense/Bill Walsh coaching tree, so that certainly holds some weight with the Garcia argument.I definitely don't see how the media has hyped up McNabb. He's never been spoken of with the likes of Peyton or Brady. If anything he's been nit picked for his failures rather than his success.

Um..McNabb has played with an "in prime" TO and Westbrook, two perrenial all-pro players. If you are looking for a qb who has worked wonders with a pedestrian supporting cast, look at Brett Favre.

 

[meatwad1]

I agree with all threw of the last posts.Boldin like- for sure. One of the best, but gets banged up too much.Borderline HOFer? Probably. Another 2 or 3 good years with another trip to the NFC Championship game should do it. Another Super Bowl trip will guarantee it. A Super Bowl win will make it a first ballot.He also is, in fact, a non-west Coast QB playing in a WC system. Remarkably successful when you take that into consideration.By the way, if he gets into the Hall, he presents a very strong argument to be the HOF QB with the worst receiving corp throughout his career. Save for one year with TO, he's never had a great receiver, (although D.Jackson is heading in that direction)

I would argue that Westbrook qualifies as a great reciever. He does catch the ball no? I think he has run for a few yards after the catch too. That is pretty helpful to McNabb's qb rating. BTW, I am not arguing that McNabb is average...I am a McNabb owner this year and a big believer in him as a stud when he is able to play. Unfortunatly for him, being able to play is a big part of NFL football.One more thing...if we are talking about this year and during his career, I think it is safe to say he is way above average, better than most qbs. All time, I would say he is average.

 

[JuniorNB]

What surrounding cast are we talking about, Hank Baskett?Certainly Andy Reid has something to do with it, but I've never seen a quarterback do more with less, with the exception of maybe Marino.Take a look at his 2004 season with T.O. it's not hard to imagine the type of career he would have if he had a decent target to throw to. The Garcia argument isn't very exact, considering Garcia came from the 49ers system, which he had great success. Andy Reid comes from the whole west coast offense/Bill Walsh coaching tree, so that certainly holds some weight with the Garcia argument.I definitely don't see how the media has hyped up McNabb. He's never been spoken of with the likes of Peyton or Brady. If anything he's been nit picked for his failures rather than his success.

Um..McNabb has played with an "in prime" TO and Westbrook, two perrenial all-pro players. If you are looking for a qb who has worked wonders with a pedestrian supporting cast, look at Brett Favre.

He played ONE SEASON with Owens. One season. Are you really going to try to say that McNabb's career accomplishments are shared with his great receiving partner, Terrell Owens? Fpor teh most part, he's done it with Freddie Mitchell, Torrence Small, James Thrash, Hank Baskett, Reggie Brown, TE Chad Lewis, TE LJ Smith.....you get teh picture. FAvre had Sterling Sharpe, Antonio Freeman, and Donald Driver. Yes, he made them better than they probably were, but they were all better than anyone McNabb's ever had besides Owens.

 

[ScottyDog]

By this reasoning, then you have to say Tom Brady is average too since Cassel stepped in to the same system and excelled last year. He (Cassel) isn't doing so well with a different system now. I wonder how Tom Brady would perform if he were the quarterback of the Chiefs?

My premise is that everytime McNabb gets hurt (which has been often) someone has stepped in and played just as well. Is McNabbs career numbers do to Andy Reid's playcalling, gameplanning, and surrounding cast. Think about it. Feeley, Detmer, Garcia and now Kolb have all stepped in at one time or another and done almost as well or better. Heck Garcia stepped in after stinkin it up with the two teams before (Detroit and Cleve) and turned their year around and led them to the playoffs a couple years ago. Maybe some stat guy could look it up, but under Andy Reid what is Philas record when McNabb has started in comparision to when McNabb has been hurt and someone else filled in. Maybe Rush was right and that McNabb is just an average qb overhyped by the media. What are your thoughts?

 

[Sinrman]

He's definitely an above average QB. It seems like every time he approaches "elite" status, he gets hurt...

He doesn't "approach" elite status. He's always elite, he's just not always on the field.

You can't be "elite" if you can't stay on the field... sorry.http://www.nfl.com/players/donovanmcnabb/p...le?id=MCN017517

Between 2000-2008 (we'll ignore his rookie season, 1999), he's played a full 16 game regular season 4 out of 9 seasons. This season he's already missed 2 games. Durability has always been an issue with him. Don't get me wrong, I like Donovan. Seems like a light-hearted guy who has skill. But until he can consistently stay on the field, I'll consider him an 'above average' QB.

 

[jon_mx]

Look at McNabb's stats over the past several years. He is one of the greatest QB's to play the game based on his stats.

??? What stats are you looking at? 2008, 3916 yards (7th), 27 TD's (8th), QB rating 86.9 (15th)......2007 3324 yards (13th), 19 TD's (14th), QB rating 89.9 (9th).....One of the greatest to play the game? Really? HOF? No way in hell.

 

[Darth Cheney]

There is an argument to be made that McNabb has actually been hobbled by the offense. He is not a WCO QB. He does not excel at making short, precise passes that are integral to the WCO. He does excel at moving around the pocket, making deep throws. The argument about a lot of college QBs is - are they just a system QB? I think it's obvious that's how Feeley, Kolb, and Detmer brothers have done ok in Reid's system, because the system fits their meager-to-average talents and the coaching staff can coach them up and pair them with a good-to-great defense. McNabb is a great talent who was put in a system that didn't fit him and he still looked like a good-to-great QB and borderline HOFer.

McNabb has excelled in spite of the system that he has been in.

 

[jon_mx]

There is an argument to be made that McNabb has actually been hobbled by the offense. He is not a WCO QB. He does not excel at making short, precise passes that are integral to the WCO. He does excel at moving around the pocket, making deep throws. The argument about a lot of college QBs is - are they just a system QB? I think it's obvious that's how Feeley, Kolb, and Detmer brothers have done ok in Reid's system, because the system fits their meager-to-average talents and the coaching staff can coach them up and pair them with a good-to-great defense. McNabb is a great talent who was put in a system that didn't fit him and he still looked like a good-to-great QB and borderline HOFer.

McNabb has excelled in spite of the system that he has been in.

Has anyone noticed that Philly usually has one of the better defenses in the league. McNabb has no real claim to the HOF. His stats are good, but not great. He should not even be mentioned in the same breath as Peyton, Brady, or Brees. I would list Rivers, Big Ben, Schaub, Rogers and perhaps even Flacco as better QB's than McNabb (even if he was healthy). McNabb is consistently a top 10 QB, but hardly ever a top 5. Those are not HOF credentials. If McNabb had more years like 2004, then he would warrant consideration.

 

[Mr. Retukes]

I would list Rivers, Big Ben, Schaub, Rogers and perhaps even Flacco as better QB's than McNabb (even if he was healthy). McNabb is consistently a top 10 QB, but hardly ever a top 5. Those are not HOF credentials. If McNabb had more years like 2004, then he would warrant consideration.

Schaub and Flacco have never had a top-10 season, let alone top-5.edit: and Rivers and Big Ben could also be described as "consistently top 10 but hardly ever a top 5"

 

[thriftyrocker]

Has anyone noticed that Philly usually has one of the better defenses in the league. McNabb has no real claim to the HOF. His stats are good, but not great.

Should we vote Terry Bradshaw and Bart Starr out first?

He should not even be mentioned in the same breath as Peyton, Brady, or Brees. I would list Rivers, Big Ben, Schaub, Rogers and perhaps even Flacco as better QB's than McNabb (even if he was healthy). McNabb is consistently a top 10 QB, but hardly ever a top 5.

You can say he's not top 5 now. He was top 5 from 2000-2004.

 

[tomarken]

There is an argument to be made that McNabb has actually been hobbled by the offense. He is not a WCO QB. He does not excel at making short, precise passes that are integral to the WCO. He does excel at moving around the pocket, making deep throws. The argument about a lot of college QBs is - are they just a system QB? I think it's obvious that's how Feeley, Kolb, and Detmer brothers have done ok in Reid's system, because the system fits their meager-to-average talents and the coaching staff can coach them up and pair them with a good-to-great defense. McNabb is a great talent who was put in a system that didn't fit him and he still looked like a good-to-great QB and borderline HOFer.

McNabb has excelled in spite of the system that he has been in.

Has anyone noticed that Philly usually has one of the better defenses in the league. McNabb has no real claim to the HOF. His stats are good, but not great. He should not even be mentioned in the same breath as Peyton, Brady, or Brees. I would list Rivers, Big Ben, Schaub, Rogers and perhaps even Flacco as better QB's than McNabb (even if he was healthy). McNabb is consistently a top 10 QB, but hardly ever a top 5. Those are not HOF credentials. If McNabb had more years like 2004, then he would warrant consideration.

Schaub? Flacco? McNabb certainly would have had more years like 2004 if he had more years with a HOF WR. I agree about his credentials - I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't get in the HOF, but he is definitely one of the best QBs of the past decade and far better than average.

 

[ChargersOH]

By this reasoning, then you have to say Tom Brady is average too since Cassel stepped in to the same system and excelled last year. He (Cassel) isn't doing so well with a different system now. I wonder how Tom Brady would perform if he were the quarterback of the Chiefs?

Quarterbacks are like real estate. Location is everything. Steve Young in Tampa and San Fran reinforces this point.

 

[ttea]

What surrounding cast are we talking about, Hank Baskett?Certainly Andy Reid has something to do with it, but I've never seen a quarterback do more with less, with the exception of maybe Marino.Take a look at his 2004 season with T.O. it's not hard to imagine the type of career he would have if he had a decent target to throw to. The Garcia argument isn't very exact, considering Garcia came from the 49ers system, which he had great success. Andy Reid comes from the whole west coast offense/Bill Walsh coaching tree, so that certainly holds some weight with the Garcia argument.I definitely don't see how the media has hyped up McNabb. He's never been spoken of with the likes of Peyton or Brady. If anything he's been nit picked for his failures rather than his success.

Um..McNabb has played with an "in prime" TO and Westbrook, two perrenial all-pro players. If you are looking for a qb who has worked wonders with a pedestrian supporting cast, look at Brett Favre.

You do realize that Favre played for Holmgren in his prime, the direct mentor of Reids.Now I'm not an expert of systems, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's very similar. And yes it was mentioned that Favre had uber weapons.

 

[SSOG]

He's definitely an above average QB. It seems like every time he approaches "elite" status, he gets hurt...

He doesn't "approach" elite status. He's always elite, he's just not always on the field.

Always elite? He has had two seasons with a QB rating of above 90 and two below 80. So he has had two elite seaasns, 6 average seasons, and two poor seasons. Peyton has a career rating of 95 versus 85 for McNabb. McNabb produces some decent fantasy numbers, but he is not an elite QB, unless by elite you mean barely in the top 10.

If your top two receivers are Todd Pinkston and James Thrash and you post a QB rating in the 80s, that's an elite season.Also, just for the record, "greatness" is not measured in QB rating, and rushing yardage counts even if you're a QB. Apparently 2002 wasn't an elite season, despite McNabb posting 229 yards per game passing, 48 yards per game rushing, 1.7 passing TDs per game vs. .6 INTs per game, and tacking on another .6 rushing TDs per game (pro-rated stats over a 16 game season: 3664 yards, 27 passing TDs, 10 INTs, 768 rushing yards, 10 rushing TDs). Only on pace for 4400 yards, 37 TDs, and 10 INTs that year despite his starting receivers being Thrash and Pinkston... but he must not have been very elite, because his QB rating was only 86. That 2005 season must not have been elite, either. I mean, sure, he was on pace for over 4500 yards and 30 TDs, but his QB rating was only 85.

It's also a shame that McNabb wasn't elite that year he had an 89.9 QB rating. If only he'd managed an extra tenth of a point, that would have been an elite season, but as it stands it was only average.

None of Marino's weapons approached the skill level or abilities of Westbrook. Everyone here seems to be missing the 800 pound gorilla which is Westbrook.

Mcnabb is a good QB, but he certainly has benefitted by being in a great system with great coaches, Westbrook, and with Jim Johnson D's. This has been seen with Feeley and many others who were able to have success despite being average or worse QBs

That said he is not an average QB. He also is not an elite QB. He's somewhere in the middle.

The bigger issue is even if the media were to promote him as being better than he was, how is that any different than what they've done with Brady and others? Sports news is about hyperbole.

McNabb was arguably the best QB in the entire NFL in 2002. Westbrook had 46 carries that year. Philly's 5 leading receivers, in order of receptions, were Pinkston, Thrash, Staley, Antonio Freeman, and Chad Lewis.

You can't be "elite" if you can't stay on the field... sorry.

That's a whole different argument (and I'm sure most people who saw Bo Jackson or Gale Sayers or Earl Campbell play would disagree). If you'd prefer, though, you can change my wording to "when he's on the field, he's elite".

 

[jon_mx]

That's a whole different argument (and I'm sure most people who saw Bo Jackson or Gale Sayers or Earl Campbell play would disagree). If you'd prefer, though, you can change my wording to "when he's on the field, he's elite".

Those guys dominated the game when they were on the field. McNabb has way too many games of just being an average QB. A truly elite QB makes average WR's look great. Whoever you plug into a Peyton Manning offense quickly becomes a great WR. You probably would have never heard of Donald Driver if there wasn't Brett Farve throwing him the ball. When McNabb plays, he is a top 10 QB. That is a ways away from being elite. And yes Schaub is a better QB. Brady did it many years without having much of a WR core.

 

[SSOG]

That's a whole different argument (and I'm sure most people who saw Bo Jackson or Gale Sayers or Earl Campbell play would disagree). If you'd prefer, though, you can change my wording to "when he's on the field, he's elite".

Those guys dominated the game when they were on the field. McNabb has way too many games of just being an average QB. A truly elite QB makes average WR's look great. Whoever you plug into a Peyton Manning offense quickly becomes a great WR. You probably would have never heard of Donald Driver if there wasn't Brett Farve throwing him the ball. When McNabb plays, he is a top 10 QB. That is a ways away from being elite. And yes Schaub is a better QB. Brady did it many years without having much of a WR core.

John Elway was an elite QB. What average WRs did he make look great? What average WRs has Brady made look great? Has Peyton made any average WRs look great, or were Harrison/Wayne legitimately great WRs? If Favre made Driver look great, then why does Driver still look great after Favre skipped town?What did Brady do for many years without a WR core? McNabb's numbers sans WRs are better than Brady's, and McNabb's WRs were WAY worse than Brady's (Troy Brown, Deion Branch, and David Givens is a pretty decent WR corps, actually). McNabb had a huge spike in his numbers when he got Owens just like Brady did when he got Moss and Welker. Brady's been very successful, but so has McNabb (5 NFCCG appearances).

 

[jon_mx]

Deion Branch, David Givens, Troy Brown, and Reche Caldwell form a below average WR core.

 

[jon_mx]

John Elway was an elite QB. What average WRs did he make look great? What average WRs has Brady made look great? Has Peyton made any average WRs look great, or were Harrison/Wayne legitimately great WRs? If Favre made Driver look great, then why does Driver still look great after Favre skipped town?

Elway made Rod Smith look pretty good. Manning made Stokley look good. Harrison and Wayne are very good WR, but without Manning, Harrison would not look like a HOFer. And Rogers is still a top 10 QB, so Driver is still putting up decent numbers.

 

[Buzzcut]

By this reasoning, then you have to say Tom Brady is average too since Cassel stepped in to the same system and excelled last year. He (Cassel) isn't doing so well with a different system now. I wonder how Tom Brady would perform if he were the quarterback of the Chiefs?

My premise is that everytime McNabb gets hurt (which has been often) someone has stepped in and played just as well. Is McNabbs career numbers do to Andy Reid's playcalling, gameplanning, and surrounding cast. Think about it. Feeley, Detmer, Garcia and now Kolb have all stepped in at one time or another and done almost as well or better. Heck Garcia stepped in after stinkin it up with the two teams before (Detroit and Cleve) and turned their year around and led them to the playoffs a couple years ago. Maybe some stat guy could look it up, but under Andy Reid what is Philas record when McNabb has started in comparision to when McNabb has been hurt and someone else filled in. Maybe Rush was right and that McNabb is just an average qb overhyped by the media. What are your thoughts?

The Pats went from best passing offense in history and 16-0 with Brady to a good offense and 11-5 with Cassel, that's a pretty significant drop-off.

 

[Slider]

He's always been an average QB in a very friendly system. That's also why others look good in it. AJ Feeley looked good and went to Miami to crash and burn. Garcia looked awesome.

If McNabb and Akili Smith were switched on draft day you would probably be seeing a career 57% passer who took a ton of sacks for a long time named Akili Smith while McNabb was out in a year.

Not only is McNabb a career 57% passer but he's never thrown for 4,000 in a pass happy O. I've had season tickets for 17 years and I have never seen a QB not see so many open receivers in all my life. But somehow he gets all the credit and the coach and teams perceived lack of getting him weapons takes the blame. He's only in the last 2 years been looking WR first. For the first 8 he was looking to run or throw to the TE or RB exclusively. No WR ever had a chance to be above average in Philly.

Truth is he's no better than a Trent Green-Kerry Collins type and is a horrible game manager. Notice all of Andy Reid's perceived time management deficiencies went away with Kolb or Garcia in there???

 

[SSOG]

John Elway was an elite QB. What average WRs did he make look great? What average WRs has Brady made look great? Has Peyton made any average WRs look great, or were Harrison/Wayne legitimately great WRs? If Favre made Driver look great, then why does Driver still look great after Favre skipped town?

Elway made Rod Smith look pretty good. Manning made Stokley look good. Harrison and Wayne are very good WR, but without Manning, Harrison would not look like a HOFer. And Rogers is still a top 10 QB, so Driver is still putting up decent numbers.

Elway played two seasons with Rod Smith (well, unless you count the 16 catch season Smith had in 1996, or that 6-reception season in '95). Elway played 14 seasons WITHOUT Rod Smith. I guess all you have to do to be a "great" QB is to make average WRs look great one season out of 8. Also, Smith's best season with Elway was 86/1222/6. Smith never made the pro bowl with Elway at QB. Rod Smith did have a 100/1602/8 season and a 113/1343/11 season... with Brian Greise under center. I suppose Greise must be a better QB than Elway, since he made an average receiver like Rod Smith look so much better than Elway ever did.In other words, any time a WR has a good season with a great QB (as defined by you), then that's because great QBs make average WRs look good. But if said WR has a great season with someone else, it's either because that other QB is also great, or else it's because the WR was great. And Driver puts up good numbers with Rodgers because Rodgers is a top 10 QB, and a hallmark of a top 10 QB is that average WRs look good. But Donovan McNabb is a top 10 QB, and he never made average WRs look good. Is that about the gist of it?

Deion Branch, David Givens, Troy Brown, and Reche Caldwell form a below average WR core.

If Branch/Givens/Brown/Caldwell is "below average", then Pinkston/Thrash/Freddie Mitchell/Antonio Freeman must be "Pop Warner caliber".

 

[JuniorNB]

He's always been an average QB in a very friendly system. That's also why others look good in it. AJ Feeley looked good and went to Miami to crash and burn. Garcia looked awesome.

See Matt Cassell's stats with New England last year. Now look at his record and stats with the Chiefs. I'm not sure that correlation makes any sense to you, but it does to anyone with an ounce of football knowledge.5 NFC Championship games in 8 years. That is remarkable. Like I said, he could quit tomorrow and have a shot at the HOF. Another big playoff run this year and he's almost assured.

 

[theglorydays]

John Elway was an elite QB. What average WRs did he make look great? What average WRs has Brady made look great? Has Peyton made any average WRs look great, or were Harrison/Wayne legitimately great WRs? If Favre made Driver look great, then why does Driver still look great after Favre skipped town?

Elway made Rod Smith look pretty good. Manning made Stokley look good. Harrison and Wayne are very good WR, but without Manning, Harrison would not look like a HOFer. And Rogers is still a top 10 QB, so Driver is still putting up decent numbers.

Elway played two seasons with Rod Smith (well, unless you count the 16 catch season Smith had in 1996, or that 6-reception season in '95). Elway played 14 seasons WITHOUT Rod Smith. I guess all you have to do to be a "great" QB is to make average WRs look great one season out of 8. Also, Smith's best season with Elway was 86/1222/6. Smith never made the pro bowl with Elway at QB. Rod Smith did have a 100/1602/8 season and a 113/1343/11 season... with Brian Greise under center. I suppose Greise must be a better QB than Elway, since he made an average receiver like Rod Smith look so much better than Elway ever did.In other words, any time a WR has a good season with a great QB (as defined by you), then that's because great QBs make average WRs look good. But if said WR has a great season with someone else, it's either because that other QB is also great, or else it's because the WR was great. And Driver puts up good numbers with Rodgers because Rodgers is a top 10 QB, and a hallmark of a top 10 QB is that average WRs look good. But Donovan McNabb is a top 10 QB, and he never made average WRs look good. Is that about the gist of it?

Deion Branch, David Givens, Troy Brown, and Reche Caldwell form a below average WR core.

If Branch/Givens/Brown/Caldwell is "below average", then Pinkston/Thrash/Freddie Mitchell/Antonio Freeman must be "Pop Warner caliber".

I think Elway and Mcnabb are pretty good comparisons. Neither of them were ever truly elite in there respective eras. Elway was better at the end of his career when he had better weapons.

 

[Mr. Retukes]

Not only is McNabb a career 57% passer

Why do you feel the need to lie when it's so easy to expose you?

 

[JuniorNB]

Not only is McNabb a career 57% passer

Why do you feel the need to lie when it's so easy to expose you?

slider is a long-time McNabb hater. Anything he says on the subject should just be disregarded. He's blind to the truth.

 

[SSOG]

I think Elway and Mcnabb are pretty good comparisons. Neither of them were ever truly elite in there respective eras. Elway was better at the end of his career when he had better weapons.

I guess Elway must have played in an era where the AP awarded league MVP awards to players who weren't truly elite.

 

[theglorydays]

I think Elway and Mcnabb are pretty good comparisons. Neither of them were ever truly elite in there respective eras. Elway was better at the end of his career when he had better weapons.

I guess Elway must have played in an era where the AP awarded league MVP awards to players who weren't truly elite.

Yea i guess he did, considering he was gifted an Mvp. 21 touchdowns in 12 games for Jerry Rice, no Mvp for him. Joe Montana 31tds 13 ints and a 10-1 team record, no mvp for him.But John Elway with a stellar 54.6 completion percentage, 19 tds and 12 ints wins it. He was sure the mvp that year...I mean he didn't even make all pro and he won the mvp, LOL. What a joke of an mvp that was.