Israel/Palestinians and Conservatives/Liberals (1 Viewer)

[Chadstroma]

Why is it that it seems like here in the US those who support Israel tend to be conservative and those who support Palestinians tend to be liberal? I have wondered about this in more of a sociological sense than political. I have tried to nail down a reason and have not been able to. Any thoughts?

 

[RandyDB]

Can't help you there, I'm a liberal that supports Israel.

 

[Dan Gladden's Mustache]

What about a liberal that thinks they're all ###holes?

 

[Thunderlips]

I'm a guy in the middle who thinks they both act like ##### at times.

 

[Glass Joe]

There's no fundamental right and wrong - they're both #######s. But the Israelis seem to be able to be reasonable occasionally. While the Palestinians suffer horribly. And are lead by fundamentalists. There's no one right side of this, if you choose one it may speak more about you.

 

[timschochet]

These are all generalizations, and there are plenty of exceptions, but:

1. Religious Christian conservatives tend to support Israel because they believe that Israel's existence is foretold in the Book of Revelation and is part of God's plan. Jesus will return to Israel and the final battle will be fought there outside Jerusalem, the Rapture, etc. (The fact that modern Israel was founded mainly by atheists and secularists is unknown or ignored.)

2.Many progressives, not just here but around the world, see Israel as the last example of western Imperialism in the developing world- basically the white man having his way over the poor natives who can't hope to compete with the white man's technological superiority. When I was growing up, Apartheid South Africa was the #1 world villain in this regard and Israel #2. But since 1992 Israel has held the bad guy role all to themselves. (The fact that Israel was established as an independence movement against a white colonial power- England- and that during the War of Independence and for many years afterward the Israelis were technologically inferior to their Arab opponents- is unknown or ignored.)

3. American non-religious conservatives tend to be extremely attracted to the "tough" attitude of the Israelis- the fact that they don't seem to take any crap, that they are ready to respond militarily at any moment, that almost every man and woman owns a gun, etc. Conservatives would like America to be this way as well. ( The fact that Israel was established as a socialist nation based on communes- kibbutzes- and that both of the major political parties in Israel are economically far to the left of the most progressive Democrats in this country- is unknown or ignored.)

 

[Chadstroma]

These are all generalizations, and there are plenty of exceptions, but:

1. Religious Christian conservatives tend to support Israel because they believe that Israel's existence is foretold in the Book of Revelation and is part of God's plan. Jesus will return to Israel and the final battle will be fought there outside Jerusalem, the Rapture, etc. (The fact that modern Israel was founded mainly by atheists and secularists is unknown or ignored.)

2.Many progressives, not just here but around the world, see Israel as the last example of western Imperialism in the developing world- basically the white man having his way over the poor natives who can't hope to compete with the white man's technological superiority. When I was growing up, Apartheid South Africa was the #1 world villain in this regard and Israel #2. But since 1992 Israel has held the bad guy role all to themselves. (The fact that Israel was established as an independence movement against a white colonial power- England- and that during the War of Independence and for many years afterward the Israelis were technologically inferior to their Arab opponents- is unknown or ignored.)

3. American non-religious conservatives tend to be extremely attracted to the "tough" attitude of the Israelis- the fact that they don't seem to take any crap, that they are ready to respond militarily at any moment, that almost every man and woman owns a gun, etc. Conservatives would like America to be this way as well. ( The fact that Israel was established as a socialist nation based on communes- kibbutzes- and that both of the major political parties in Israel are economically far to the left of the most progressive Democrats in this country- is unknown or ignored.)

2. The only geographical state to ever exist in the Palestinian land has only been Jewish. There has never been a Muslim, Arab or otherwise state. Certainly, it has been an area controlled by those interests leading up to the British control from the Ottomans after WWI and before the UN '47 vote. Though there was a scat 30 year British control of this land it has long been under non-Western Imperial sway from the point that the last Crusade kingdoms failed until the Ottomans were vanquished. Facts perhaps also unknown or ignored.

 

[Native]

These are all generalizations, and there are plenty of exceptions, but:

1. Religious Christian conservatives tend to support Israel because they believe that Israel's existence is foretold in the Book of Revelation and is part of God's plan. Jesus will return to Israel and the final battle will be fought there outside Jerusalem, the Rapture, etc. (The fact that modern Israel was founded mainly by atheists and secularists is unknown or ignored.)

2.Many progressives, not just here but around the world, see Israel as the last example of western Imperialism in the developing world- basically the white man having his way over the poor natives who can't hope to compete with the white man's technological superiority. When I was growing up, Apartheid South Africa was the #1 world villain in this regard and Israel #2. But since 1992 Israel has held the bad guy role all to themselves. (The fact that Israel was established as an independence movement against a white colonial power- England- and that during the War of Independence and for many years afterward the Israelis were technologically inferior to their Arab opponents- is unknown or ignored.)

3. American non-religious conservatives tend to be extremely attracted to the "tough" attitude of the Israelis- the fact that they don't seem to take any crap, that they are ready to respond militarily at any moment, that almost every man and woman owns a gun, etc. Conservatives would like America to be this way as well. ( The fact that Israel was established as a socialist nation based on communes- kibbutzes- and that both of the major political parties in Israel are economically far to the left of the most progressive Democrats in this country- is unknown or ignored.)

I think this is pretty spot on as to the original question.

 

[Riversco]

Why is it that it seems like here in the US those who support Israel tend to be conservative and those who support Palestinians tend to be liberal? I have wondered about this in more of a sociological sense than political. I have tried to nail down a reason and have not been able to. Any thoughts?

Let's just close Israel and give them Florida? That would stop all the fighting.

 

[skol asylum]

IMO the basic liberal take on Israel is not so much anti Jew and pro Muslim but rather that we shouldnt pick sides and allow our foreign policy in the middle east to be dictated by Zionists in Israel and here at home.

 

[timschochet]

IMO the basic liberal take on Israel is not so much anti Jew and pro Muslim but rather that we shouldnt pick sides and allow our foreign policy in the middle east to be dictated by Zionists in Israel and here at home.

I don't think this is a "basic liberal take", given that most liberals I know are far too smart to believe this crap. It is, however, believed by a few leftist extremists, but I would hardly call them liberal. If you look at the history of United States foreign policy towards Israel from 1948 to today, it is hard to find any evidence at all that it was "dictated by Zionists". In fact, I could cite you more instances of when the two sides are at odds rather than when they are united.

In addition, the whole meme of Zionists dictating American foreign policy has an anti-Semitic tinge to it, the implication that Jews are behind the scenes controlling events.

 

[skol asylum]

Yeah, you're antisemitic if you dont want a foreign government having disproportionate say in your own sovereign policy toward a region. :sigh:

 

[skol asylum]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Israel_Public_Affairs_Committee

The group above is fictitious and has no political influence in this country whatsoever.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Israel_Public_Affairs_Committee

The group above is fictitious and has no political influence in this country whatsoever.

President Obama spoke in front of AIPAC recently and gave very strong reassurances of Israel. He is often considered very liberal to progressive.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Why is it that it seems like here in the US those who support Israel tend to be conservative and those who support Palestinians tend to be liberal? I have wondered about this in more of a sociological sense than political. I have tried to nail down a reason and have not been able to. Any thoughts?

I don't think I agree with the premise. For starters 2/3's of Jewish voters (IIRC) are Democratic. Most Jewish voters (rightly) are strongly pro-Israel and demand that of their candidates. Go from there to realizing that most liberal to progressive candidates with any sizable Jewish constituency will want to appeal to that. President Obama has said in the 2008 election and before AIPAC that the US would defend Israel if it was attacked. I don't recall any American president ever syaing that before, and this is a guy that went to a fundraiser for Rashid Khalidi.

As far as other voters go, we have seen this really weird turnaround. We see liberals and progressives talking some kind of realpolitik these days, which used to be the reserve of conservatives. Maybe it's not isolationism but it's definitely non-interventionism (and that means not just military intervention, it means the US should be less influential in world affairs, which maybe is a progressive twist on it). As for conservatives, I don't think the tea party types are particularly pro-Israel and then you have Rand Paul libertarian types who are truly (IMO) isolationist.

Frankly I think the one thing that has kept American government support behind Israel have been the consistent opinion of strategists in both Republican and Democratic administrations to recognize that the US has outstanding commitments from WW2 and the Cold War and that there is value in defending a democracy which also provides us an important foothold in the Middle East. Not to mention recognizing the real dangers of genocide if Israel was ever overrun.

 

[proninja]

Dispensationalism is an American theological aberration that interprets the bible as explaining two different salvation plans. One for the nation of Israel, one for the gentiles. This generally comes out of an overly literal, wooden reading of Scripture, and yes, it is usually (though not always) accompanied by belief in the rapture.

Since God has a special salvation plan for Israel, the thought process goes, then anything that helps protect the Israeli state must be what God wants.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

These are all generalizations, and there are plenty of exceptions, but:

1. Religious Christian conservatives tend to support Israel because they believe that Israel's existence is foretold in the Book of Revelation and is part of God's plan. Jesus will return to Israel and the final battle will be fought there outside Jerusalem, the Rapture, etc. (The fact that modern Israel was founded mainly by atheists and secularists is unknown or ignored.)

2.Many progressives, not just here but around the world, see Israel as the last example of western Imperialism in the developing world- basically the white man having his way over the poor natives who can't hope to compete with the white man's technological superiority. When I was growing up, Apartheid South Africa was the #1 world villain in this regard and Israel #2. But since 1992 Israel has held the bad guy role all to themselves. (The fact that Israel was established as an independence movement against a white colonial power- England- and that during the War of Independence and for many years afterward the Israelis were technologically inferior to their Arab opponents- is unknown or ignored.)

3. American non-religious conservatives tend to be extremely attracted to the "tough" attitude of the Israelis- the fact that they don't seem to take any crap, that they are ready to respond militarily at any moment, that almost every man and woman owns a gun, etc. Conservatives would like America to be this way as well. ( The fact that Israel was established as a socialist nation based on communes- kibbutzes- and that both of the major political parties in Israel are economically far to the left of the most progressive Democrats in this country- is unknown or ignored.)

2. The only geographical state to ever exist in the Palestinian land has only been Jewish. There has never been a Muslim, Arab or otherwise state. Certainly, it has been an area controlled by those interests leading up to the British control from the Ottomans after WWI and before the UN '47 vote. Though there was a scat 30 year British control of this land it has long been under non-Western Imperial sway from the point that the last Crusade kingdoms failed until the Ottomans were vanquished. Facts perhaps also unknown or ignored.

This is not technically correct. Jordan is 2/3's Palestinian, technically the West Bank and Palestine belonged to Trans-Jordan and was claimed by Jordan (formerly, they no longer want the Palestinians in the WB or Israel). I think it was only in the 1967 war that the West Bank was lost to Israel. And even though there was a British mandate I am pretty sure there was an emirate that was overlaying all that. The problem was that Arabs started attacking Jewish settlers as early as 1919-1922 in the runup to that. The problem then as it has ever been is that Arabs were unwilling to live side by side with Jewish people.

It makes total sense to have political and diplomatic objections to Israel, that doesn't make someone antisemitic. However it is unquestionable that there is a strong antisemitic strain in the mideast (and in fact can be found in the koran itself). To fairly oppose pro Israeli policy often means supporting some very ugly antisemitic groups that are actually there by consequence even if it is not intentional.