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It's time for the Tax Returns to be released. (1 Viewer)

:heavysigh:
:goodposting:

Apologies for mucking up what was a mildly interesting thread.  Not sure why I continue to hope for a substantive discussion with the poster based on actual facts with links and cites and stuff. I guess I'm just an eternal optimist.

 
:goodposting:

Apologies for mucking up what was a mildly interesting thread.  Not sure why I continue to hope for a substantive discussion with the poster based on actual facts with links and cites and stuff. I guess I'm just an eternal optimist.
No apologies. And you're not the Mother Mucker.

 
The guy’s whole schtick is that he’s a great businessman. You’d think it would be kind of important for voters to get a little glimpse into how successful he actually is since you know he’s lied about this his entire life. 

I get it politicians are the worst or whatever. How people ended up settling on this loser will always be a mystery. 
The guy has perfect timing.

Everything else I agree, he sucks at most of it.

 
And I don't get why.  Bottom drawer.

McDougal, on the other hand.  :wub:
A federal grand jury in North Carolina indicted Edwards in 2011 on six felony charges of violating multiple federal campaign contribution laws to cover up an extramarital affair to which he admitted, following his 2008 campaign. Edwards was found not guilty on one count, and the judge declared a mistrial on the remaining five charges, as the jury was unable to come to an agreement.[2]

 
  :whoosh: - and I usually remember these kinds of items.

What was the final disposition of this?
Iirc, Edwards convinced the jury that the payments were not intended to protect his campaign but instead were intended to protect his dying wife.  

If Trump can convince a jury that his intent was something other than protecting the campaign, he should be acquitted too.  But if you believe that Trump can gin up a similarly "clean" evidentiary record, I've got some luxury condos you may be interested in buying.  

 
Iirc, Edwards convinced the jury that the payments were not intended to protect his campaign but instead were intended to protect his dying wife.  

If Trump can convince a jury that his intent was something other than protecting the campaign, he should be acquitted too.  But if you believe that Trump can gin up a similarly "clean" evidentiary record, I've got some luxury condos you may be interested in buying.  
Not sure how it's terribly different.  DJT dipped his wick while he had a new wife and kid at home.   Seems far fetched to hang your hat on a scenario where there is an equally plausible alternate theory - unless there is written communication from DJT concerning this being for the purposes of the campaign.  Cohen has zero worth as a witness.

 
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I know this is petty but I really hate being addressed as “ya’ll”.  

I know that’s how it works in Bug Tussle or whatever but it’s grating.

 
Not sure how it's terribly different.  DJT dipped his wick while he had a new wife and kid at home.   Seems far fetched to hang your hat on a scenario where there is an equally plausible alternate theory - unless there is written communication from DJT concerning this being for the purposes of the campaign.  Cohen has zero worth as a witness.
Trump didn’t pay her off until the weeks leading up the election. It would be a hard sell to make a jury believe he made the payments to hide it from his wife. And Trump certainly isn’t the person who would be able to sell it.

 
Not sure how it's terribly different.  DJT dipped his wick while he had a new wife and kid at home.   Seems far fetched to hang your hat on a scenario where there is an equally plausible alternate theory - unless there is written communication from DJT concerning this being for the purposes of the campaign.  Cohen has zero worth as a witness.
Oohh, this condo has alllll the amenities, the most exclusive address, and the most desirable views of the city...yes, right over there!  I know it's a little hazy today but it's there! And I'm not supposed to say anything but if you want to put a deposit on this unit today only you'll have some very important foreign dignitaries as your neighbors. Do you like vodka?

 
Not sure how it's terribly different.  DJT dipped his wick while he had a new wife and kid at home.   Seems far fetched to hang your hat on a scenario where there is an equally plausible alternate theory - unless there is written communication from DJT concerning this being for the purposes of the campaign.  Cohen has zero worth as a witness.
Their behavior and timing were completely different.  Edwards went immediately into coverup mode doing everything he could to keep his wife from finding out.  The characters are completely different as well.  Knowing what we know from Donnie's own words regarding the fairer sex the "keep it from my wife" defense just isn't going to fly.   These are two totally different paintings.  Sure, they used the same canvas, brushes and paints, but that's where the similarities stop.

 
Back to the OP topic. Obviously Trump is never going to voluntarily release his taxes. I assume that the Democrats in Congress have the right to subpoena them, and I’m sure they will. But do they also have the right to display them to the public without Trump’s consent? And should they? 

 
Back to the OP topic. Obviously Trump is never going to voluntarily release his taxes. I assume that the Democrats in Congress have the right to subpoena them, and I’m sure they will. But do they also have the right to display them to the public without Trump’s consent? And should they? 
Irrelevant.  They'll be leaked within a day or so.

 
Irrelevant.  They'll be leaked within a day or so.
Probably - but I don't think they have the authority to release them to even the full house or senate - I think it is a select group of people who are entitled to request and see tax returns.

But again - I think this is a red herring - the tax returns to look for are all the tax returns related to Trump Organization and the myriad of companies under that umbrella.  Honestly, the House has neither the time, nor the expertise to make such a sweeping investigation.

House and/or DOJ will have to find evidence outside of the tax returns of illegality before looking at the returns makes any sense.

 
Cohen has zero worth as a witness.
I don't think this is true.  Even more so when it becomes a pissing contest between Cohen and Trump.

Cohen has admitted to facts that are going to land him in prison - not too many people lie about that.  Certainly, Trump will argue that Cohen is making up parts of it to get a lighter sentence - but then you have to weigh Cohen's testimony against Trump's, and I am not sure the Cohen loses that fight.

Then you have to look at both the circumstantial evidence, and potentially other witnesses - such as the Trump Org CFO - who could shed more light on the payments, and discussions around those payments.  And you also have Pecker - who might tell a similar story as Cohen.

Long story, short - this is where Trump's lengthy aversion to the truth could really come back and bite him.

 
I don't think this is true.  Even more so when it becomes a pissing contest between Cohen and Trump.

Cohen has admitted to facts that are going to land him in prison - not too many people lie about that.  Certainly, Trump will argue that Cohen is making up parts of it to get a lighter sentence - but then you have to weigh Cohen's testimony against Trump's, and I am not sure the Cohen loses that fight.

Then you have to look at both the circumstantial evidence, and potentially other witnesses - such as the Trump Org CFO - who could shed more light on the payments, and discussions around those payments.  And you also have Pecker - who might tell a similar story as Cohen.

Long story, short - this is where Trump's lengthy aversion to the truth could really come back and bite him.
Cohen is worthless as a witness.  He has already admitted to repeatedly lying.

Any actual physical evidence he has is a different matter.

 
Cohen is worthless as a witness.  He has already admitted to repeatedly lying.

Any actual physical evidence he has is a different matter.
I agree but unfortunatley that same thing also applies to our President. Any thing he might provide as a witness is worthless as well because he is such a serial liar. 

 
It is still crazy to me that the conservative leader of the country slept with porn stars while married and paid off hush money to protect his family/personal image is seen as  the saving defense for him.

 
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:goodposting:

Apologies for mucking up what was a mildly interesting thread.  Not sure why I continue to hope for a substantive discussion with the poster based on actual facts with links and cites and stuff. I guess I'm just an eternal optimist.


What facts? Trump hasn't released his tax returns. That's a fact we can agree on. Short of the House demanding it, Trump doesn't legally have to right ?

The only reason anyone wants the returns made public is so that hopefully something in them can be used to make Trump look bad.  isn't that a fact too ?

 
What facts? Trump hasn't released his tax returns. That's a fact we can agree on. Short of the House demanding it, Trump doesn't legally have to right ?

The only reason anyone wants the returns made public is so that hopefully something in them can be used to make Trump look bad.  isn't that a fact too ?
I would assume some people like you might want them released so they can be used to make Trump look good? Look he really is super rich like we thought, look Trump is on the up and up, etc. Isn't that all good for Trump supporters? 

 
It is still crazy to me that the conservative leader of the country slept with porn stars while married and paid off hush money to protect his family/personal image is seen as  the saving defense for him.
Pro-tip: he’s not conservative. He is only what suits him that moment.  

 
Iirc, Edwards convinced the jury that the payments were not intended to protect his campaign but instead were intended to protect his dying wife.  

If Trump can convince a jury that his intent was something other than protecting the campaign, he should be acquitted too.  But if you believe that Trump can gin up a similarly "clean" evidentiary record, I've got some luxury condos you may be interested in buying.  
the problem is he asked Pecker how he could help him with his CAMPAIGN and the Nat'l Inquirer did just that by buying McDougal's story to kill it.  Pecker has cooperated with the Feds and they have texts, emails, some recordings, with Cohen, Pecker, Trump Org and others (Weiselberg).  The SDNY which is run by a Trump appointee are not going to bring charges against the PRESIDENT OF US lightly and not without significant evidence.  I don't know what it's going to take but you cannot believe a word Trump says about anything...he's lied about this particular issue and changed his story at least 20 times.  The prosecutors are using the facts.

 
What facts? Trump hasn't released his tax returns. That's a fact we can agree on. Short of the House demanding it, Trump doesn't legally have to right ?

The only reason anyone wants the returns made public is so that hopefully something in them can be used to make Trump look bad.  isn't that a fact too ?
they will only look bad if they are bad.

 
I would assume some people like you might want them released so they can be used to make Trump look good? Look he really is super rich like we thought, look Trump is on the up and up, etc. Isn't that all good for Trump supporters? 
I don't care about his taxes and I realize the left will never give Trump credit for anything. Economy, job growth, North Korea, no terrorist attacks, gas prices even the proposals on prison reform bill that should be bi-partisan and embraced by Democrats ...... nothing will be credited.

So no - if Democrats force the release, and there is nothing there, it will fade into nothing, left will never apologize and they'll find something else to hate on. That's been very consistent for 2 years now

 
He was a Democrat most of his life.

Trump is pro-Trump.
Yes and no.  He’s certainly pro-Trump.  But he’s flipped so many times it’s hard to classify him....

“Trump registered as a Republican in Manhattan in 1987 and since that time has changed his party affiliation five times. In 1999, Trump changed his party affiliation to the Independence Party of New York. In August 2001, Trump changed his party affiliation to Democratic.”

 
they will only look bad if they are bad.
no, they'll also look bad if nothing is there, the Democrats will say he didn't pay enough taxes, he didn't donate enough, he isn't worth as much as he said or that he wasted everyone's time .... that's just how its going to go

 
I don't care about his taxes and I realize the left will never give Trump credit for anything. Economy, job growth, North Korea, no terrorist attacks, gas prices even the proposals on prison reform bill that should be bi-partisan and embraced by Democrats ...... nothing will be credited.

So no - if Democrats force the release, and there is nothing there, it will fade into nothing, left will never apologize and they'll find something else to hate on. That's been very consistent for 2 years now
and you likely don't care about his crimes, or if he enriches himself personally by making deals with other countries.

If there is nothing there...terrific but there is something there which is why Trump won't release them.  Trump is a liar and tax returns are facts....he can't lie about his fortune, his business arrangements and who they are with, how much he's borrowed and from whom, how much he pays in taxes, how much he gives to charity, etc. if there are facts that he has signed off on that dispute his words.  

 
no, they'll also look bad if nothing is there, the Democrats will say he didn't pay enough taxes, he didn't donate enough, he isn't worth as much as he said or that he wasted everyone's time .... that's just how its going to go
they can only say it if it's true...if there's nothing to see, there's nothing to see but it won't be the case.  Trump is a crook and conman and his empire will be dismantled over the next couple years.  Winning the presidency will end up being the biggest mistake of his life.

 
Cohen is worthless as a witness.  
You don't find him credible.  But that does make him worthless. 

He is more credible than Trump.  He has given evidence admitting his own criminality.  You don't think that is trustworthy?  You think he is lying so that he can go to jail?

I assume your argument is that he is telling the truth about his own conduct, but lying about Trump?  Maybe.  But, if you ask both men to give their versions - I am probably going to side with Cohen, based on overall trustworthiness.

And, if you have corroborating evidence that supports Cohen (or in this case, Cohen corroborates other evidence) - then Cohen becomes a very good witness for the prosecution.

People get convicted on the testimony of people far less trustworthy than Cohen - every single day.

It is an error to dismiss a witness, just because you don't like what they have to say.

 
If I were a Trump supporter, I would want him to show his tremendous tax returns and shut up all the libs.  Don't hide your light under a bushel basket, Mr. President! Show them your bigly tax payments, the best tax payments!

 
Cohen is worthless as a witness.  
You don't find him credible.  But that does make him worthless. 

He is more credible than Trump.  He has given evidence admitting his own criminality.  You don't think that is trustworthy?  You think he is lying so that he can go to jail?

I assume your argument is that he is telling the truth about his own conduct, but lying about Trump?  Maybe.  But, if you ask both men to give their versions - I am probably going to side with Cohen, based on overall trustworthiness.

And, if you have corroborating evidence that supports Cohen (or in this case, Cohen corroborates other evidence) - then Cohen becomes a very good witness for the prosecution.

People get convicted on the testimony of people far less trustworthy than Cohen - every single day.

It is an error to dismiss a witness, just because you don't like what they have to say.
Plus he's been known to have tapes.  

 
You don't find him credible.  But that does make him worthless. 

He is more credible than Trump.  He has given evidence admitting his own criminality.  You don't think that is trustworthy?  You think he is lying so that he can go to jail?

I assume your argument is that he is telling the truth about his own conduct, but lying about Trump?  Maybe.  But, if you ask both men to give their versions - I am probably going to side with Cohen, based on overall trustworthiness.

And, if you have corroborating evidence that supports Cohen (or in this case, Cohen corroborates other evidence) - then Cohen becomes a very good witness for the prosecution.

People get convicted on the testimony of people far less trustworthy than Cohen - every single day.

It is an error to dismiss a witness, just because you don't like what they have to say.
this is the value of his testimony...putting context around the emails, texts, conversations and much of the evidence they already have.  They literally have millions of pieces of evidence from Cohen and he can help put the puzzle together.

 
I don't care about his taxes and I realize the left will never give Trump credit for anything. Economy, job growth, North Korea, no terrorist attacks, gas prices even the proposals on prison reform bill that should be bi-partisan and embraced by Democrats ...... nothing will be credited.

So no - if Democrats force the release, and there is nothing there, it will fade into nothing, left will never apologize and they'll find something else to hate on. That's been very consistent for 2 years now
Even if it comes out and proves he is legit and very rich, you will not use that to defend him? 

 

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