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Jack Clark: As Good A Player As Mattingly? (1 Viewer)

Encyclopedia Brown

Encyclopedia Brown

Footballguy
A friend of mine is a huge SF Giant homer and he believes absolutely.

Mattingly had the big city hype machine behind him, while Clark labored out in the Bay for 10 years on some not very good Giants team.

Mattingly played in a park that was designed to help LH hitters, while Clark played at the windswept Candlestick--a place where homeruns/extra base-hits went to die. (It is interesting to note that Clark hit his career high in HR's at age 31 playing in St. Louis, and at age 35 hit twenty eight for Boston).

Mattingly has about 200 more AB's than Clark, and about 300 more hits, and 45 more total bases.

Clark has over 100 more HR's than Mattingly.

Mattingly's BA is over thirty points higher but Clark has the superior OBP, SLG, and OPS+

I guess the big difference is in the number of Gold Gloves. Mattingly had nine, Clark had zero. But to be fair, Clark was competing with Keith Hernandez, arguably the best defensive 1B of all time. Mattingly was going against Pete O'Brien, Alvin Davis and Bruce Bochte.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/clarkja01.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mattido01.shtml

 
Hall of Fame MonitorAll-Time and Active Leaders This is another Jamesian creation. It attempts to assess how likely (not how deserving) an active player is to make the Hall of Fame. It's rough scale is 100 means a good possibility and 130 is a virtual cinch. It isn't hard and fast, but it does a pretty good job. Here are the batting rules. Also, I require a minimum of 30 points in this metric before the value is displayed for a player. For Batting Average, 2.5 points for each season over .300, 5.0 for over .350, 15 for over .400. Seasons are not double-counted. I require 100 games in a season to qualify for this bonus. For hits, 5 points for each season of 200 or more hits. 3 points for each season of 100 RBI's and 3 points for each season of 100 runs. 10 points for 50 home runs, 4 points for 40 HR, and 2 points for 30 HR. 2 points for 45 doubles and 1 point for 35 doubles. 8 points for each MVP award and 3 for each AllStar Game, and 1 point for a Rookie of the Year award. 2 points for a gold glove at C, SS, or 2B, and 1 point for any other gold glove. 6 points if they were the regular SS or C on a WS team, 5 points for 2B or CF, 3 for 3B, 2 for LF or RF, and 1 for 1B. I don't have the OF distribution, so I give 3 points for OF. 5 points if they were the regular SS or C on a League Championship (but not WS) team, 3 points for 2B or CF, 1 for 3B. I don't have the OF distribution, so I give 1 points for OF. 2 points if they were the regular SS or C on a Division Championship team (but not WS or LCS), 1 points for 2B, CF, or 3B. I don't have the OF distribution, so I give 1 points for OF. 6 points for leading the league in BA, 4 for HR or RBI, 3 for runs scored, 2 for hits or SB, and 1 for doubles and triples. 50 points for 3,500 career hits, 40 for 3,000, 15 for 2,500, and 4 for 2,000. 30 points for 600 career home runs, 20 for 500, 10 for 400, and 3 for 300. 24 points for a lifetime BA over .330, 16 if over .315, and 8 if over .300. For tough defensive positions, 60 for 1800 games as a catcher, 45 for 1,600 games, 30 for 1,400, and 15 for 1,200 games caught. 30 points for 2100 games at 2B or SS, or 15 for 1,800 games. 15 points for 2,000 games at 3B. An additional 15 points in the player has more than 2,500 games played at 2B, SS, or 3B. Award 15 points if the player's batting average is over .275 and they have 1,500 or more games as a 2B, SS or C. Pitching Rules 15 points for each season of 30 or more wins, 10 for 25 wins, 8 for 23 wins, 6 for 20 wins, 4 for 18 wins, and 2 for 15 wins. 6 points for 300 strikeouts, 3 points for 250 SO, or 2 points for 200 or more strikeouts. 2 points for each season with 14 or more wins and a .700 winning percentage. 4 points for a sub-2.00 ERA, 1 point if under 3.00. 7 points for 40 or more saves, 4 points for 30 or more, and 1 point for 20 or more. 8 points for each MVP award, 5 for a Cy Young award, 3 for each AllStar Game, and 1 point for a Rookie of the Year award. 1 point for a gold glove. 1 point for each no-hitter. This is not currently included. 2 points for leading the league in ERA, 1 for leading in games, wins, innings, W-L%, SO, SV or SHO. Half point for leading in CG. 35 points for 300 or more wins, 25 for 275, 20 for 250, 15 for 225, 10 for 200, 8 for 174 and 5 for 150 wins. 8 points for a career W-L% over .625, 5 points for over .600, 3 points for over .575, and 1 point for over .525, min. 190 decisions. 10 points for a career ERA under 3.00, min 190 decisions. 20 points for 300 career saves and 10 points for 200 career saves. 30 points for 1000 career games, 20 for 850 games and 10 for 700 games. 20 points for more than 4,000 strikeouts, and 10 for 3,000 SO. 2 points for each WS start, 1 point for each relief appearance, and 2 for a win. 1 point for each LCS or LDS win.
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interesting comparison. i instinctively thought it was another silly question in the baseball forum, and that the answer was obviously Mattingly. But when i looked up the numbers, Clark is equal to or better than Mattingly in pretty much every meaningful metric.

Clark has the higher Equivalent Average (309 to 303), more Win Shares (315 to 263), more Runs Above Replacement (833 to 806), a higher WARP2 and WARP3 (about 92 to 89). Even their peaks are very similar, but i would still give Mattingly the edge there.

It's still hard not to pick Mattingly though. Maybe that is just the hype machine, as you pointed out. The main thing i'm taking away from this is that Jack Clark is quite under-rated.

 
Despite my severe bias in this matter(Mattingly is my favorite player of all time), I really think by any objective means, you have to evaluate Mattingly in two segments, pre back injury and post back injury. They were two different animals stat-wise. Though it was intersting to actually observe him, becasue in clutch moments, he was far less guarded with it, and would tork it like the days of old(the 95 post season as a great representative example). You can't presuppose him replicating those first 5 seasons, but I think you could realistically upgrade and expect him to maintain his worst of the seasons(1988). Injuries are part of the game, but we extrapolate the considerations of several players in sports and baseball(think Koufax and Puckett for two).

The simplest answer to this question is, putting stats aside, did you watch these two guys play? The answer is so abundantly clear, its ridiculous. But if we are going to look at stats, in about 15 years as a regular, he hit over .300 once, he hit over 30 homers one time, and he drove in 100 runs twice. Now Clark was a good player and he could rake, and he was clutch, but he was also a butcher at first and a strikeout machine.

I think Will Clark vs. Jack Clark is a more interesting comparison.

 
Very interesting thread. The Mattingly hype (and that 4 year period of being one of the best players in the game) may be the biggest difference between the two - and dare I say Clark had seasons that could be argued better than Mattingly's best, even at his peak.

In the end, Clark's great seasons were spread out - he was a bit inconsistent year to year. Mattingly had that extended peak of awesomeness, then the back and meh.

 
Does it hurt Donnie Baseball when his statistics match up very similarly with baseball juggernauts Jeff Conine and Wally Joyner?

 
Koya said:
Very interesting thread. The Mattingly hype (and that 4 year period of being one of the best players in the game) may be the biggest difference between the two - and dare I say Clark had seasons that could be argued better than Mattingly's best, even at his peak.In the end, Clark's great seasons were spread out - he was a bit inconsistent year to year. Mattingly had that extended peak of awesomeness, then the back and meh.
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Such as? Give me one year on par with say, 1986 Mattingly.
 
NY/NJMFDIVER said:
Koya said:
Very interesting thread. The Mattingly hype (and that 4 year period of being one of the best players in the game) may be the biggest difference between the two - and dare I say Clark had seasons that could be argued better than Mattingly's best, even at his peak.In the end, Clark's great seasons were spread out - he was a bit inconsistent year to year. Mattingly had that extended peak of awesomeness, then the back and meh.
Click to expand...
Such as? Give me one year on par with say, 1986 Mattingly.
Click to expand...
1987: In 131 Games: .286 .459 .597 176 OPS+ 35 HRs, 106 RBIs, 93 RSAs I look closer at the stats, I do see that Mattingly definately has the nod btw, but Clark had a lot of talent and definately had some very impressive stretches.
 
Bogart said:
Does it hurt Donnie Baseball when his statistics match up very similarly with baseball juggernauts Jeff Conine and Wally Joyner?
Click to expand...
they don't really. Conine and Joyner both played about 5 years more than Mattingly and still didn't provide the contribution to winning that he did (WARP3). I suppose they might have accumulated some counting stats, if that's what you're referring to.Jack Clark is a tad better than COnine and Joyner, but once again, played years longer than Mattingly to reach the same level of contribution.Will Clark, on the other hand, pretty much had the career Mattingly might have had if he had played 3-5 more seasons. Both peaked early and remained worthwhile till the end of their somewhat short careers with Clark not having a dip like Mattingly's 1990 and contributing at a younger age.
 
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All I know is that the homerun Jack Clark hit off the Dodgers in the playoffs moved the stadium back 15 feet. One of my favorite homeruns of all times as a Cardinal fan (along with Ozzie's homerun and Pujols blast that ruined Brad Lidge).

 
Did Mattingly ever go bankrupt after spending a half million on a car? I worked around Jack Clark Racing when I was a kid and he was a very nice guy.

 
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