Jamal Lewis . . . HOF Prospects? (1 Viewer)

[David Yudkin]

Lewis became the 24th RB to break 10,000 rushing yards. He was the 10th to do so by a RB under 30 the others being Barry Sanders, Emmitt Smith, Walter Payton, Edgerrin James, LaDainian Tomlinson, Eric Dickerson, Jerome Bettis, Marshall Faulk, and Curtis Martin. That's some pretty good company.

I would not have thought Lewis would have had that many yards given that he missed a full season due to injury, had another year with suspension issues, and always seemed to be banged up.

I'd be inclined to say no, but not many guys have had 2,000 yards rushing in a season.

 

[Despyzer]

Except for one season, he has always been overshadowed by better backs. There have been players who have gone in even though they weren't really thought of as the best at their position, but I don't think Jamal Lewis has the kind of glamor that will carry a vote. The suspension for drug trafficking probably won't help his chances.

 

[mlball77]

A solid RB, but not all that special and seems very one dimensional. I don't think he really has a great shot. More of a stat compiler than a special player or difference maker.

 

[Bri]

I am a huge fan of Curtis Martin. Many here think he's a HOF lock. That said, he was rarely ever the best RB. So to followup the previous two posts, does it matter then that Jamal wasn't the best but one year?

 

[David Yudkin]

By comparison, Lewis has more rushing yardage at the same age than: Thurman Thomas, OJ Simpson, Earl Campbell, Franco Harris, Jim Brown, Tony Dorsett, Marcus Allen, Larry Csonka, John Riggins, and Leroy Kelly (all HOFers).

I realize times have changed, Lewis is pretty one dimensional, and there's a glut of candidates from recent years but his career numbers are still pretty high.

 

[Don Quixote]

No. Jonathan Ogden should go in in his place.

 

[David Yudkin]

I know there's no way to predict the future, but he's 2,727 yards from passing Tony Dorsett (currently 7th on the all time rushing list). Even playing on a terrible Browns team this year, Lewis' teams' combined regular season record is 71-54 and he's won a SB ring. Just sayin' . . .

 

[Despyzer]

Even in that one season, Jamal got an awful lot of mileage out of playing the Browns twice that year... 500 yards in two games.

 

[MaddHatter]

Look at Drew Bledsoe's career totals. Now I know comparing QBs to RBs are like apples to oranges but still.

My vote is no.

 

[Andy Herron]

No way. Not even a blip on the radar.

 

[Just Win Baby]

Based on his results to date and reasonable projections for the rest of his career (i.e., no major resurgence), he is not a HOFer, and IMO it's not particularly close.

He has been first team All Pro 1 time. And that's the extent of his major awards.

It has been mentioned that he is one dimensional, but it's worse than that. His one dimension is rushing, but even that is limited only to rushing yards. He has only 58 rushing TDs, which is amazingly low for a feature RB with 2346 rushing attempts... that's only 1 TD every 40 attempts.

 

[MarshallRob]

The 2007 Pro Football Prospectus had a great piece on the greatest running back seasons of all-time. Lewis' 2003 season ranked a shockingly low 229th. The reason was his team only had 115 rushing first downs, needing 4.8 runs for every first down. A comparison to the best season of another "boom-and-bust" RB, Barry Sanders in 1997, showed the Lions had 120 rushing first downs that year and Sanders had 56 fewer carries than Lewis had in 2003.

 

[Lord Lucan]

It's a very dangerous game speculating about the HOF based on numbers, because players have a 16-game season in the modern era and the rules have been tweaked to favour offenses. It's worth noting that if Kerry Collins returns as Tennessee's starter next year, he'll probably be in the top ten all-time in passing yardage by the end of 2009.

Lewis has accumulated big numbers by playing most of his career as the feature back in a run-heavy, ball-control offense behind one of the better offensive lines in the league.

But most of all - he's faced Cleveland and Cincinatti twice each season for most of his career. 3,154 of his career rushing yards have come against those two defensive powerhouses.

 

[Bri]

Look at Drew Bledsoe's career totals. Now I know comparing QBs to RBs are like apples to oranges but still. My vote is no.

Not putting Bledsoe in raises the bar awfully high statistically plus he led his team to one Supe and in a way a second one(AFC championship winning pass during Brady's 1st year)I know there's alot of people that will say the bar needs to be raised but....people need to keep that in mind when they cry that soandso didn't make it in the future.Jamal doesn't seem done to me so I think he'll be in eventually. Many think he's (all but)done.

 

[Bri]

It's a very dangerous game speculating about the HOF based on numbers, because players have a 16-game season in the modern era and the rules have been tweaked to favour offenses. It's worth noting that if Kerry Collins returns as Tennessee's starter next year, he'll probably be in the top ten all-time in passing yardage by the end of 2009.

Kerry is a winner and just when you're about to think he stinks and he's not, he wins again. He doesn't come across as best ever to me but, he deserves some praise which he really hasn't gotten since he was a drunk in NO. He was the golden boy in Carolina and then just nothing. Even in NY he didn't get enough praise IMO. This is the third team(could be) that he leads to the championship or Supe when no one predicted as such in preseason.

Lewis has accumulated big numbers by playing most of his career as the feature back in a run-heavy, ball-control offense behind one of the better offensive lines in the league.But most of all - he's faced Cleveland and Cincinatti twice each season for most of his career. 3,154 of his career rushing yards have come against those two defensive powerhouses.

Sweetness faced the Lions and the Pack when they weren't good, so what.Heck Sammy Baugh threw when no one expected a pass. You just can't think that way, it doesn't work out evenly or fairly.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Look at Drew Bledsoe's career totals. Now I know comparing QBs to RBs are like apples to oranges but still. My vote is no.

Not putting Bledsoe in raises the bar awfully high statistically plus he led his team to one Supe and in a way a second one(AFC championship winning pass during Brady's 1st year)I know there's alot of people that will say the bar needs to be raised but....people need to keep that in mind when they cry that soandso didn't make it in the future.Jamal doesn't seem done to me so I think he'll be in eventually. Many think he's (all but)done.

No way does Bledsoe deserve a spot in anything but the Average Hall of Fame. The only thing about Bledsoe that's been above average is the number of attempts he's thrown. A career average of 4.8 adjusted net yards per pass attempt in an era where the league average has been 4.9 or 5.0 most years means he's entirely undeserving.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Good player but only two standout seasons. Not very close, IMO.

 

[Bri]

Look at Drew Bledsoe's career totals. Now I know comparing QBs to RBs are like apples to oranges but still. My vote is no.

Not putting Bledsoe in raises the bar awfully high statistically plus he led his team to one Supe and in a way a second one(AFC championship winning pass during Brady's 1st year)I know there's alot of people that will say the bar needs to be raised but....people need to keep that in mind when they cry that soandso didn't make it in the future.Jamal doesn't seem done to me so I think he'll be in eventually. Many think he's (all but)done.

No way does Bledsoe deserve a spot in anything but the Average Hall of Fame. The only thing about Bledsoe that's been above average is the number of attempts he's thrown. A career average of 4.8 adjusted net yards per pass attempt in an era where the league average has been 4.9 or 5.0 most years means he's entirely undeserving.

no one on this earth uses career average of adjusted net yards

 

[Jimmy James]

I think he might squeeze in after a few years if there is a weak class 4-5 years after his eligibility begins. This would assume he continues playing and doesn't embarrass himself his last few years.

I think that when you consider how special the guy is, it needs to be noted he has blown out both knees. How many other backs can do what he has done with that type of injury history?

 

[David Yudkin]

Good player but only two standout seasons. Not very close, IMO.

He's had 4 seasons with 100 rushing yards. Bettis had 4. Martin had 5. Again, I'd vote no, but I don't think it's outlandish to raise the question.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Look at Drew Bledsoe's career totals. Now I know comparing QBs to RBs are like apples to oranges but still. My vote is no.

Not putting Bledsoe in raises the bar awfully high statistically plus he led his team to one Supe and in a way a second one(AFC championship winning pass during Brady's 1st year)I know there's alot of people that will say the bar needs to be raised but....people need to keep that in mind when they cry that soandso didn't make it in the future.Jamal doesn't seem done to me so I think he'll be in eventually. Many think he's (all but)done.

No way does Bledsoe deserve a spot in anything but the Average Hall of Fame. The only thing about Bledsoe that's been above average is the number of attempts he's thrown. A career average of 4.8 adjusted net yards per pass attempt in an era where the league average has been 4.9 or 5.0 most years means he's entirely undeserving.

no one on this earth uses career average of adjusted net yards

Yes, but at least one person uses career average of adjusted net yards per attempt. I don't know why you'd want to use a less telling stats (passing yards) than a more telling stat, other than for simplicity's sake. It's obvious that Bledsoe's career numbers are uninspiring.

 

[Bri]

Look at Drew Bledsoe's career totals. Now I know comparing QBs to RBs are like apples to oranges but still. My vote is no.

Not putting Bledsoe in raises the bar awfully high statistically plus he led his team to one Supe and in a way a second one(AFC championship winning pass during Brady's 1st year)I know there's alot of people that will say the bar needs to be raised but....people need to keep that in mind when they cry that soandso didn't make it in the future.Jamal doesn't seem done to me so I think he'll be in eventually. Many think he's (all but)done.

No way does Bledsoe deserve a spot in anything but the Average Hall of Fame. The only thing about Bledsoe that's been above average is the number of attempts he's thrown. A career average of 4.8 adjusted net yards per pass attempt in an era where the league average has been 4.9 or 5.0 most years means he's entirely undeserving.

no one on this earth uses career average of adjusted net yards

all playing aside- my point is he threw for 44k yards, 251 TDs, and led his team to one(or two) Supes.I do not think many QBs will throw for more.You(and many others) are saying yeah he threw for more yards than Montana and Fouts and Unitas, yeah he threw for more TDs than Steve Young, George Blanda, Jim Kelly and YA Tittle, yeah he went to more Supes than Marino but it's not enough.I'm fine with him not making it IF IF IF it raises the bar and people have to surpass Bledsoe's numbers to make it in the future. If a guy like Phillip Rivers or Eli throws for 33k yards and 180 TDs and makes it, that's just not right then. Set the bar or don't set it but, you can't just solely raise it for Bledsoe.ETA to come at it another way-picture some 8 year old from San Fran that grows up idolizing the niners of the past, saying "will I make the HOF if I throw for more yards than Montana and more TDs than Young?" Cmon you know your answer is yes.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Good player but only two standout seasons. Not very close, IMO.

He's had 4 seasons with 100 rushing yards. Bettis had 4. Martin had 5. Again, I'd vote no, but I don't think it's outlandish to raise the question.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Look at Drew Bledsoe's career totals. Now I know comparing QBs to RBs are like apples to oranges but still. My vote is no.

Not putting Bledsoe in raises the bar awfully high statistically plus he led his team to one Supe and in a way a second one(AFC championship winning pass during Brady's 1st year)I know there's alot of people that will say the bar needs to be raised but....people need to keep that in mind when they cry that soandso didn't make it in the future.Jamal doesn't seem done to me so I think he'll be in eventually. Many think he's (all but)done.

No way does Bledsoe deserve a spot in anything but the Average Hall of Fame. The only thing about Bledsoe that's been above average is the number of attempts he's thrown. A career average of 4.8 adjusted net yards per pass attempt in an era where the league average has been 4.9 or 5.0 most years means he's entirely undeserving.

no one on this earth uses career average of adjusted net yards

all playing aside- my point is he threw for 44k yards, 251 TDs, and led his team to one(or two) Supes.I do not think many QBs will throw for more.You(and many others) are saying yeah he threw for more yards than Montana and Fouts and Unitas, yeah he threw for more TDs than Steve Young, George Blanda, Jim Kelly and YA Tittle, yeah he went to more Supes than Marino but it's not enough.I'm fine with him not making it IF IF IF it raises the bar and people have to surpass Bledsoe's numbers to make it in the future. If a guy like Phillip Rivers or Eli throws for 33k yards and 180 TDs and makes it, that's just not right then. Set the bar or don't set it but, you can't just solely raise it for Bledsoe.

It's not about raising the bar it's about using a different one.For example, a QB that throws for 4,000 yards, 30 TDs, 10 INTs, has a higher YPA average and low sack numbers every year for 8 straight years would be a definite HOFer in my book without anything else. "Padding" years of below average play should not raise someone's HOF standards.The only years Bledsoe had that really stand out to me are '96-'98 with the Pats and '02 with the Bills. And that's obviously not enough for a HOF profile.

 

[Bri]

If you go year to year, 7(or half his career) times he was top ten in passing yards and passing TDs-not "just top ten" but 1st, 2nd, 3rd. Another common argument is not comparing favorably to peers and well he was often a top 10 QB sometimes one of the best.

I'm not saying he should be in. I want the bar set higher.

QBs (good ones) seem to play for a lllllong time. It can be set high.

If that means Montana and Kelly(or really someone comparable stat-wise in the future) need to play a couple more years then they do. Testaverde and Gannon played into their 40s. How old is Favre? How old was Cunningham? 38?These aren't RBs retiring at 31 or 32.

The compiler comments with Bledsoe are fair but also that he was sacked more than all but 4 QBs in NFL history. That's a lot of beatings to be "a compiler".

 

[Chase Stuart]

If you go year to year, 7(or half his career) times he was top ten in passing yards and passing TDs-not "just top ten" but 1st, 2nd, 3rd. Another common argument is not comparing favorably to peers and well he was often a top 10 QB sometimes one of the best. I'm not saying he should be in. I want the bar set higher.QBs (good ones) seem to play for a lllllong time. It can be set high. If that means Montana and Kelly(or really someone comparable stat-wise in the future) need to play a couple more years then they do. Testaverde and Gannon played into their 40s. How old is Favre? How old was Cunningham? 38?These aren't RBs retiring at 31 or 32. The compiler comments with Bledsoe are fair but also that he was sacked more than all but 4 QBs in NFL history. That's a lot of beatings to be "a compiler".

Montana and Favre played in a different era.Bledsoe had a lot of attempts. That's it. There's some value in being average over a lot of attempts, but that's not exactly the criteria you use for the HOF. For example, do you think Bledsoe is more deserving of the HOF than Warner?

 

[David Yudkin]

To Chase's point . . . most passing attempts through age 25:

1 Drew Bledsoe 2901

2 Peyton Manning 2226

3 Dan Marino 2050

4 Joe Namath 1682

5 Brett Favre 1580

6 Fran Tarkenton 1541

7 Tim Couch 1511

8 Ben Roethlisberger 1436

9 Bernie Kosar 1427

10 Daunte Culpepper 1391

 

[wildbill]

Lewis became the 24th RB to break 10,000 rushing yards. He was the 10th to do so by a RB under 30 the others being Barry Sanders, Emmitt Smith, Walter Payton, Edgerrin James, LaDainian Tomlinson, Eric Dickerson, Jerome Bettis, Marshall Faulk, and Curtis Martin. That's some pretty good company.I would not have thought Lewis would have had that many yards given that he missed a full season due to injury, had another year with suspension issues, and always seemed to be banged up.I'd be inclined to say no, but not many guys have had 2,000 yards rushing in a season.

If we're going to put guys who ran for 2000 yards in the HOF, let's start with Terrell Davis.

 

[wildbill]

I think he might squeeze in after a few years if there is a weak class 4-5 years after his eligibility begins. This would assume he continues playing and doesn't embarrass himself his last few years.

I think that when you consider how special the guy is, it needs to be noted he has blown out both knees. How many other backs can do what he has done with that type of injury history?

If we're going to put guys who ran for 2000 yards had bad knees in the HOF, let's start with Terrell Davis.

 

[Bri]

Bledsoe had a lot of attempts. That's it. There's some value in being average over a lot of attempts, but that's not exactly the criteria you use for the HOF. For example, do you think Bledsoe is more deserving of the HOF than Warner?

But that's not it.He gets beaten up for the INTs and fumbles and yep he did dunderhead things and all the attempts are somehow a negative but, you can't beat him up for those and not at least look at what happenned with the attempts or how many times he was sacked to be forced into those dunderhead mistakes. Take it all in, cherry picking isn't fair. Everyone does that with Drew. Even some point out his poor games against the Steelers in the playoffs(or some others that stick in their memory); absolutely bring that up but, ya gotta bring up when they made the Supe too.The Pats were terrible, that's how they could draft Drew 1st. Drew only had 4 losing seasons. They were 2-14 before he got there. He was 5-7 (more wins than previous year) and then 10-6. Winner in year 2. One COULD make a case for Drew, that's all.As for Warner, I want to see how he does in this year's playoffs. Today's a bad day to ask that Q too. I don't recall a player like him that was nothing, phenomenal, terrible, and then excellent. So up and down, he's a tough one.

 

[Despyzer]

Getting back to Jamal.... of his contemporaries (E. James, Tomlinson, F. Taylor, Dunn, Alexander, Portis, A. Green), only Edge and Dunn have a lower YPC than Lewis, and I don't think those two are getting in either.

 

[Jimmy James]

I think he might squeeze in after a few years if there is a weak class 4-5 years after his eligibility begins. This would assume he continues playing and doesn't embarrass himself his last few years.

I think that when you consider how special the guy is, it needs to be noted he has blown out both knees. How many other backs can do what he has done with that type of injury history?

If we're going to put guys who ran for 2000 yards had bad knees in the HOF, let's start with Terrell Davis.

Davis is precisely the type of guy who couldn't do what Lewis has done.

 

[Despyzer]

The Pats were terrible, that's how they could draft Drew 1st. Drew only had 4 losing seasons. They were 2-14 before he got there. He was 5-7 (more wins than previous year) and then 10-6. Winner in year 2.

... and when he got injured, the Patriots became dramatically better. I think the Pats argument is going to work against you here.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Bledsoe had a lot of attempts. That's it. There's some value in being average over a lot of attempts, but that's not exactly the criteria you use for the HOF. For example, do you think Bledsoe is more deserving of the HOF than Warner?

But that's not it.He gets beaten up for the INTs and fumbles and yep he did dunderhead things and all the attempts are somehow a negative but, you can't beat him up for those and not at least look at what happenned with the attempts or how many times he was sacked to be forced into those dunderhead mistakes. Take it all in, cherry picking isn't fair. Everyone does that with Drew. Even some point out his poor games against the Steelers in the playoffs(or some others that stick in their memory); absolutely bring that up but, ya gotta bring up when they made the Supe too.The Pats were terrible, that's how they could draft Drew 1st. Drew only had 4 losing seasons. They were 2-14 before he got there. He was 5-7 (more wins than previous year) and then 10-6. Winner in year 2. One COULD make a case for Drew, that's all.As for Warner, I want to see how he does in this year's playoffs. Today's a bad day to ask that Q too. I don't recall a player like him that was nothing, phenomenal, terrible, and then excellent. So up and down, he's a tough one.

I don't see how I'm cherry picking. I'm using the same ANY/A stat for everyone.

 

[Just Win Baby]

Why did this turn into a Bledsoe HOF thread? Bledsoe is less deserving than Lewis, and neither is close to HOF caliber.

 

[MarshallRob]

Why did this turn into a Bledsoe HOF thread? Bledsoe is less deserving than Lewis, and neither is close to HOF caliber.

 

[Bri]

The Pats were terrible, that's how they could draft Drew 1st. Drew only had 4 losing seasons. They were 2-14 before he got there. He was 5-7 (more wins than previous year) and then 10-6. Winner in year 2.

... and when he got injured, the Patriots became dramatically better. I think the Pats argument is going to work against you here.

when older Bledsoe got injured and when older Bledsoe NOT Brady made the key play in the Supe....OK I'll roll with that but what about the previous years? Ignore a possible HOFer because another possible HOFer replaced him? Montana didn't get that treatment.

 

[allnight33]

No. Jonathan Ogden should go in in his place.

Great, state the obvious. Now name the other 4 offensive lineman.

 

[Despyzer]

The Pats were terrible, that's how they could draft Drew 1st. Drew only had 4 losing seasons. They were 2-14 before he got there. He was 5-7 (more wins than previous year) and then 10-6. Winner in year 2.

... and when he got injured, the Patriots became dramatically better. I think the Pats argument is going to work against you here.

when older Bledsoe got injured and when older Bledsoe NOT Brady made the key play in the Supe....OK I'll roll with that but what about the previous years? Ignore a possible HOFer because another possible HOFer replaced him? Montana didn't get that treatment.

The 49ers didn't go on a ridiculous run of excellence after they got rid of Montana.And what pivotal play are you talking about? Bledsoe didn't even throw a single pass in that Super Bowl.

In the years leading up to Brady taking over, the Patriots were 9-7, 8-8, and 5-11... a losing record. They also lost the first two games of that next season under Bledsoe. Brady took that same team over and led them to a 11-3 record and a SB victory.

 

[Bri]

Bledsoe had a lot of attempts. That's it. There's some value in being average over a lot of attempts, but that's not exactly the criteria you use for the HOF. For example, do you think Bledsoe is more deserving of the HOF than Warner?

But that's not it.He gets beaten up for the INTs and fumbles and yep he did dunderhead things and all the attempts are somehow a negative but, you can't beat him up for those and not at least look at what happenned with the attempts or how many times he was sacked to be forced into those dunderhead mistakes. Take it all in, cherry picking isn't fair. Everyone does that with Drew. Even some point out his poor games against the Steelers in the playoffs(or some others that stick in their memory); absolutely bring that up but, ya gotta bring up when they made the Supe too.The Pats were terrible, that's how they could draft Drew 1st. Drew only had 4 losing seasons. They were 2-14 before he got there. He was 5-7 (more wins than previous year) and then 10-6. Winner in year 2. One COULD make a case for Drew, that's all.As for Warner, I want to see how he does in this year's playoffs. Today's a bad day to ask that Q too. I don't recall a player like him that was nothing, phenomenal, terrible, and then excellent. So up and down, he's a tough one.

I don't see how I'm cherry picking. I'm using the same ANY/A stat for everyone.

you wrote he had alot of attempts that's it. Didn't mention yards, TDs, Wins, coach wanting him to throw that much feeling his arm gave them best chance to win...just attemptsTo put this another way, yet again and come around to Jamal.I think Jimmy Smith and Irving Fryar raised the bar for WRs somewhat recently. For example, WRs gotta get 13000 yards to make it from now on.Warrick Dunn and Fred Taylor are about to do that for RBs. Tiki and Eddie George probably did it a few years back. Get more than 11-12000, you're in. Look at the players above and below these guys in the career totals.I think Bledsoe will do the same.Lewis is 2k or so behind those 2 RBs. Portis is 3k behind. They're on their way but IMO they have to surpass these guys that have raised the bar.1. Emmitt Smith 18,355 1990-2004 2TM 2. Walter Payton+ 16,726 1975-1987 chi 3. Barry Sanders+ 15,269 1989-1998 det 4. Curtis Martin 14,101 1995-2005 2TM 5. Jerome Bettis 13,662 1993-2005 2TM 6. Eric Dickerson+ 13,259 1983-1993 4TM 7. Tony Dorsett+ 12,739 1977-1988 2TM 8. Jim Brown+ 12,312 1957-1965 cle 9. Marshall Faulk 12,279 1994-2005 2TM 10. Marcus Allen+ 12,243 1982-1997 2TM 11. Franco Harris+ 12,120 1972-1984 2TM 12. Thurman Thomas+ 12,074 1988-2000 2TM 13. Edgerrin James (30) 12,002 1999-2008 2TM 14. LaDainian Tomlinson (29) 11,574 2001-2008 sdg 15. John Riggins+ 11,352 1971-1985 2TM 16. Fred Taylor (32) 11,271 1998-2008 jax 17. Corey Dillon 11,241 1997-2006 2TM 18. O.J. Simpson+ 11,236 1969-1979 2TM 19. Warrick Dunn (33) 10,910 1997-2008 2TM 20. Ricky Watters 10,643 1992-2001 3TM 21. Tiki Barber 10,449 1997-2006 nyg 22. Eddie George 10,441 1996-2004 2TM 1. Jerry Rice 22,895 1985-2004 3TM 2. Tim Brown 14,934 1988-2004 2TM 3. Isaac Bruce (36) 14,875 1994-2008 2TM 4. Marvin Harrison (36) 14,549 1996-2008 clt 5. James Lofton+ 14,004 1978-1993 5TM 6. Terrell Owens (35) 13,956 1996-2008 3TM 7. Cris Carter 13,899 1987-2002 3TM 8. Henry Ellard 13,777 1983-1998 3TM 9. Andre Reed 13,198 1985-2000 2TM 10. Randy Moss (31) 13,101 1998-2008 3TM 11. Steve Largent+ 13,089 1976-1989 sea 12. Irving Fryar 12,785 1984-2000 4TM 13. Art Monk+ 12,721 1980-1995 3TM 14. Torry Holt (32) 12,515 1999-2008 ram 15. Jimmy Smith 12,287 1992-2005 2TM

 

[Bri]

The Pats were terrible, that's how they could draft Drew 1st. Drew only had 4 losing seasons. They were 2-14 before he got there. He was 5-7 (more wins than previous year) and then 10-6. Winner in year 2.

... and when he got injured, the Patriots became dramatically better. I think the Pats argument is going to work against you here.

when older Bledsoe got injured and when older Bledsoe NOT Brady made the key play in the Supe....OK I'll roll with that but what about the previous years? Ignore a possible HOFer because another possible HOFer replaced him? Montana didn't get that treatment.

The 49ers didn't go on a ridiculous run of excellence after they got rid of Montana.And what pivotal play are you talking about? Bledsoe didn't even throw a single pass in that Super Bowl.

In the years leading up to Brady taking over, the Patriots were 9-7, 8-8, and 5-11... a losing record. They also lost the first two games of that next season under Bledsoe. Brady took that same team over and led them to a 11-3 record and a SB victory.

earlier I referred to the play in the AFCC, oops I guess, no clue why I typed Supe this time

 

[Just Win Baby]

I think Jimmy Smith and Irving Fryar raised the bar for WRs somewhat recently. For example, WRs gotta get 13000 yards to make it from now on.

Warrick Dunn and Fred Taylor are about to do that for RBs. Tiki and Eddie George probably did it a few years back. Get more than 11-12000, you're in.

I think this illustrates a problem with your perspective on what it takes to make the HOF. You seem to approach it like there is an established threshold based on numbers. There is no such thing. It is a combination of many things, including statistics, honors and awards, winning, championships, and intangibles. You are hammering away on just one thing - statistics. ETA: and, to make matters worse, statistics without context.If you want to continue this, why don't you bump an actual Bledsoe HOF thread, like This One... except I see that many of us, you included, already had this debate in that thread, so I'm not sure why anything would have changed in the last two years.

 

[Bri]

I think Jimmy Smith and Irving Fryar raised the bar for WRs somewhat recently. For example, WRs gotta get 13000 yards to make it from now on.

Warrick Dunn and Fred Taylor are about to do that for RBs. Tiki and Eddie George probably did it a few years back. Get more than 11-12000, you're in.

I think this illustrates a problem with your perspective on what it takes to make the HOF. You seem to approach it like there is an established threshold based on numbers. There is no such thing. It is a combination of many things, including statistics, honors and awards, winning, championships, and intangibles. You are hammering away on just one thing - statistics. ETA: and, to make matters worse, statistics without context.If you want to continue this, why don't you bump an actual Bledsoe HOF thread, like This One... except I see that many of us, you included, already had this debate in that thread, so I'm not sure why anything would have changed in the last two years.

I don't know, I've mentioned stats, supes, winning, compared to peers...a bunch has come up.

 

[Just Win Baby]

I think Jimmy Smith and Irving Fryar raised the bar for WRs somewhat recently. For example, WRs gotta get 13000 yards to make it from now on.

Warrick Dunn and Fred Taylor are about to do that for RBs. Tiki and Eddie George probably did it a few years back. Get more than 11-12000, you're in.

I think this illustrates a problem with your perspective on what it takes to make the HOF. You seem to approach it like there is an established threshold based on numbers. There is no such thing. It is a combination of many things, including statistics, honors and awards, winning, championships, and intangibles. You are hammering away on just one thing - statistics. ETA: and, to make matters worse, statistics without context.If you want to continue this, why don't you bump an actual Bledsoe HOF thread, like This One... except I see that many of us, you included, already had this debate in that thread, so I'm not sure why anything would have changed in the last two years.

I don't know, I've mentioned stats, supes, winning, compared to peers...a bunch has come up.

Your main point has been his statistics, which are underwhelming when put in context.You have mentioned Super Bowls... Bledsoe started one and was a member of a team that played in another, but he didn't play. Something you neglected to mention is that throughout his career, Bledsoe was a miserable postseason performer. Even when he his 1996 Pats team made the Super Bowl, Bledsoe threw more interceptions than TDs in every playoff game... he played horribly.

As for winning, his career record as a starter is 101-98, including postseason. Are you saying that is a positive?

In the thread I linked, Chase shows pretty clearly that Bledsoe was never a top 5 QB in any season of his career. We know he was never selected 1st or 2nd team All Pro or won any major honors or awards.

Bottom line, when you look at everything together, he has no case. So it's hard to understand why you continue arguing about it.

 

[Bri]

I was not stating he should be in but he should be a barometer of which others should have to exceed

 

[Just Win Baby]

I was not stating he should be in but he should be a barometer of which others should have to exceed

No doubt about that. But some of your statements about setting the bar threw me off, since it seemed you were saying he (and others at other positions) were setting new minimum statistical standards, and I don't agree that there is a minimum, since there are so many other factors involved.

 

[Bri]

In the thread I linked, Chase shows pretty clearly that Bledsoe was never a top 5 QB in any season of his career. We know he was never selected 1st or 2nd team All Pro or won any major honors or awards.

BTW All-Pro TeamsGlossary1994 - UPI: 2nd team all-conf.1996 - UPI: 2nd team all-conf.Passing Yds1994 NFL 4555 (1-- 14) 1996 NFL 4086 (3-- 56) 1997 NFL 3706 (4) 1998 NFL 3633 (6) 1999 NFL 3985 (6-- 71) 2002 NFL 4359 (2-- 25) 2005 NFL 3639 (8) Career 44611 (7) Passing TD1993 NFL 15 (10) 1994 NFL 25 (4) 1996 NFL 27 (3-- 99) 1997 NFL 28 (3-- 75) 1999 NFL 19 (10) 2002 NFL 24 (7) 2005 NFL 23 (8) Career 251 (13)

 

[Just Win Baby]

In the thread I linked, Chase shows pretty clearly that Bledsoe was never a top 5 QB in any season of his career. We know he was never selected 1st or 2nd team All Pro or won any major honors or awards.

BTW All-Pro TeamsGlossary1994 - UPI: 2nd team all-conf.1996 - UPI: 2nd team all-conf.Passing Yds1994 NFL 4555 (1-- 14) 1996 NFL 4086 (3-- 56) 1997 NFL 3706 (4) 1998 NFL 3633 (6) 1999 NFL 3985 (6-- 71) 2002 NFL 4359 (2-- 25) 2005 NFL 3639 (8) Career 44611 (7) Passing TD1993 NFL 15 (10) 1994 NFL 25 (4) 1996 NFL 27 (3-- 99) 1997 NFL 28 (3-- 75) 1999 NFL 19 (10) 2002 NFL 24 (7) 2005 NFL 23 (8) Career 251 (13)

My immediate reaction: So?But I really don't want to keep discussing Bledsoe in this Jamal Lewis thread.

 

[stevegamer]

These polls often are missing the "Not now, but you never know..." type option.

Right now, Lewis is NOT a HoF guy. If he did something spectacular, like had another 2000K+ season, it would help him a lot, because he's been a compiler who has played a long time, and had one great season.

 

[Bri]

I was not stating he should be in but he should be a barometer of which others should have to exceed

No doubt about that. But some of your statements about setting the bar threw me off, since it seemed you were saying he (and others at other positions) were setting new minimum statistical standards, and I don't agree that there is a minimum, since there are so many other factors involved.

I think we want more stats and intangibles to be involved but it is and it isn't. There simply aren't going to be many players that are top 10 all time that wouldn't have "the other things" that we covet. Naturally, a player doesn't just walk into top 10 stats and if a team has a top QB, RB etc they're generally going to win. Just to reiterate-At the moment pretend you didn't see(and don't recall) all the guys above Freddie T and Warrick Dunn. What greats do you remember? Look above those two, those are "the RBs" in NFL History. They rock.We can discuss wins, average YPC or all sorts of things but they are going to be there regardless. Once it hits a super elite point, I think there's alot of similarities and those similarities are why we can never truly ever end any of the best ever debates. make sense?