Jaworski on Cutler (1 Viewer)

[Andy Dufresne]

Chaos, for the record, also said he would NOT draft Jay Cutler in the top 10 were he an NFL GM.

Absolutely true. Obviously, I don't think Leinart merits such a high pick either, but the resume demands it. I hope he's up to it. Since he won't be in the NFC East, I wish him success. And to further the record, I like Young better than both.

Do you think Young warrants a top 10 pick over Leinart and Cutler?

Ooo. Ooo. Memememe!Answer: Yes

That's why I love this QB class, eveybody has their own views of these guys. Should be good discussion for awhile.

I'm thinking of starting a thread where the VY supporters can post their name for posterity. Haters can start their own thread.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Sounds like Jaws watched the same film I did.  Not to pat myself on the back, but you gotta respect Jaws, and he's reporting the exact same things two weeks before the draft that I was writing two weeks before Christmas. 

Cutler > Leinart.  

I reported it 3 weeks before Christmas.

I was there when he popped out of the womb, I said right than and there that this kid is NFL ready.

I was there when the parents were having sex

We really went down the slippery slope here.

 

[Jason Wood]

I'm also high on Cutler, but when it comes right down to it I couldn't take him over Leinart in the draft.  It's not the talent I question since they both are very talented guys, but Leinart has proven himself year after year in the biggest spotlight in football.  If he goes to the Titans he'll actually be under less media attention than in LA.  There seems to be less risk with Leinart even though I prefer Cutler's skills and Leinart is the most NFL ready QB in the draft.  The risk factor and NFL readiness are the reason I also have Cutler above Young.

Fair enough.

Not to hijack my own topic, but there's been several interesting blurbs in a half dozen or so articles claiming the Titans are torn between all three QBs. I have two sources I really trust and I have been trying to get this validated. Both responded last night, and while one was more detailed they said the same thing. Here's how I understand it.

Leinart supporters are led by Chow and are in the smallest minority.

Cutler supporters are led by Fisher and number higher than Leinart supporters.

Young supporters are led by Adams and most of the scouting department.

The Cutler and Young factions are equally negative on the other but both like Leinart a strong second to their preference, thus bumping Leinart considerably in the decision process, which is still far from settled. Sounds like fun.

Interesting...still smell a huge smokescreen here (so the Jets or Raider or ??? don't move up to 2 and grab Leinart in front of Tenny)

1) All world physical traits

2) Intangible leadership

3) Terrible supporting cast

4) Success amidst tons of pass rush pressure

Are we talking about J.P. Losman or Jay Cutler? Oh that's right...both

I am not sure where you heard Losman was a great leader. I recall him having a selfish attitude at Tulane, and pretty much everyone on the team hated him.

Tulane was considering shutting down its football program and Losman led a very public battle to keep the team alive. His leadership skills and command of the huddle were both considered pluses coming into the draft.

 

[Gargoylez]

Always respect the opinion of Jaws.  The guy does his homework like no one else.  One line that caught my attention though...

"What I like about Cutler is that he threw with pressure on him"

I agree and disagree with that statement.  I agree with what Jaws said about lack of protection and surrounding talent.  Yet, on the flipside Cutler had zero pressure on him compared to Leinart and Young.  Being QB at Vandy is nothing compared to be a QB ot UT or SC.  Therefore we don't know how Cutler will react being in a big media market or playing in big games where there's real pressure actually on him.  Not saying he can't deal with it because we can't know due to his circumstances.  Yet, we do know the other two can handle those situations.

Different kinds of pressure. Young and Leinart typically had great protection. Jay would get hammered in three tics. Also, many of Vandy's games last year were true pressure cookers on the field. At Tennessee, at Gainesville... both every bit as pressure packed as many of Young and Leinart's arenas. Those were Jay's best moments, btw.

I strongly disagree that it was the same pressure. Vandy is expected to lose and if they do it's no big deal. That's the type of program they have. That just isn't the case with UT and SC where winning is the only expectation. Young or Leinart in the Rose Bowl or Leinart at ND are situations where there were major implications and the weight of the world was resting on the arm of the QB. Not saying Cutler can't handle that because he hasn't been in that situation. It's one of thoise intangibles we won't know until he gets to the NFL. Who knows he may thrive in that environment.

You should read about the pressure they put on themselves to break the decades long drought at Tennessee. Emotional pressure at UT and USC is definitely higher. Jaws was referring to physical pressure. You cannot possibly think Leinart and Young faced anything similar.

1) All world physical traits2) Intangible leadership

3) Terrible supporting cast

4) Success amidst tons of pass rush pressure

Are we talking about J.P. Losman or Jay Cutler? Oh that's right...both

I know I am in the minority here... but I think JP can be a good QB if given the chance. Has a great arm and great mobility... He already has Vince Young beat with the arm strength... He didn't play poorly with the leagues worst offensive line and a team rebelling against the worst coach in the NFL, Malarkey.If Jay Cutler could get a solid starting job, he has good potential to do some damage... now if he gets thrown around like JP... then who knows.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

I know I am in the minority here... but I think JP can be a good QB if given the chance. Has a great arm and great mobility... He already has Vince Young beat with the arm strength... He didn't play poorly with the leagues worst offensive line and a team rebelling against the worst coach in the NFL, Malarkey.

If Jay Cutler could get a solid starting job, he has good potential to do some damage... now if he gets thrown around like JP... then who knows.

Arm strength? What's that? David Klingler had good arm strength too.

 

[Jason Wood]

I know I am in the minority here... but I think JP can be a good QB if given the chance. Has a great arm and great mobility... He already has Vince Young beat with the arm strength... He didn't play poorly with the leagues worst offensive line and a team rebelling against the worst coach in the NFL, Malarkey.

If Jay Cutler could get a solid starting job, he has good potential to do some damage... now if he gets thrown around like JP... then who knows.

Arm strength? What's that? David Klingler had good arm strength too.

Arm Strength...aka, the most overrated component of QB evaluation

 

[B-Deep]

I know I am in the minority here... but I think JP can be a good QB if given the chance. Has a great arm and great mobility... He already has Vince Young beat with the arm strength... He didn't play poorly with the leagues worst offensive line and a team rebelling against the worst coach in the NFL, Malarkey.

If Jay Cutler could get a solid starting job, he has good potential to do some damage... now if he gets thrown around like JP... then who knows.

Arm strength? What's that? David Klingler had good arm strength too.

Arm Strength...aka, the most overrated component of QB evaluation

 

[Chaos Commish]

Chaos, for the record, also said he would NOT draft Jay Cutler in the top 10 were he an NFL GM.

Absolutely true. Obviously, I don't think Leinart merits such a high pick either, but the resume demands it. I hope he's up to it. Since he won't be in the NFC East, I wish him success. And to further the record, I like Young better than both.

Do you think Young warrants a top 10 pick over Leinart and Cutler?

Ooo. Ooo. Memememe!Answer: Yes

I'm with stupid.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I know I am in the minority here... but I think JP can be a good QB if given the chance. Has a great arm and great mobility... He already has Vince Young beat with the arm strength... He didn't play poorly with the leagues worst offensive line and a team rebelling against the worst coach in the NFL, Malarkey.

If Jay Cutler could get a solid starting job, he has good potential to do some damage... now if he gets thrown around like JP... then who knows.

Arm strength? What's that? David Klingler had good arm strength too.

Arm Strength...aka, the most overrated component of QB evaluation

How overrated? McNabb, Brady, Manning...all of them have the arm strength. What's the knock on guys like Drew Brees?

 

[Wreckincrew]

I know I am in the minority here... but I think JP can be a good QB if given the chance. Has a great arm and great mobility... He already has Vince Young beat with the arm strength... He didn't play poorly with the leagues worst offensive line and a team rebelling against the worst coach in the NFL, Malarkey.

If Jay Cutler could get a solid starting job, he has good potential to do some damage... now if he gets thrown around like JP... then who knows.

Arm strength? What's that? David Klingler had good arm strength too.

Arm Strength...aka, the most overrated component of QB evaluation

If your arm isn't strong enough to throw all the NFL patterns (ie. deep outs, flags or crossing routes) then you have given the defense one less thing to guard against. Smart DC's will game plan you out of the NFL. Granted, it's not the most important component, but it shouldn't be discarded quite so quickly.

 

[Jason Wood]

I know I am in the minority here... but I think JP can be a good QB if given the chance. Has a great arm and great mobility... He already has Vince Young beat with the arm strength... He didn't play poorly with the leagues worst offensive line and a team rebelling against the worst coach in the NFL, Malarkey.

If Jay Cutler could get a solid starting job, he has good potential to do some damage... now if he gets thrown around like JP... then who knows.

Arm strength? What's that? David Klingler had good arm strength too.

Arm Strength...aka, the most overrated component of QB evaluation

How overrated? McNabb, Brady, Manning...all of them have the arm strength. What's the knock on guys like Drew Brees?

Brady's arm strength was considered a major detriment coming out of Michigan. Bottom line of arm strength = it has to be "good enough"

Timmy Chang, Ty Detmer, Danny Weurfel didn't have it, a great many QBs (Young, Leinart and Cutler included) certainly do.

 

[Jason Wood]

I know I am in the minority here... but I think JP can be a good QB if given the chance. Has a great arm and great mobility... He already has Vince Young beat with the arm strength... He didn't play poorly with the leagues worst offensive line and a team rebelling against the worst coach in the NFL, Malarkey.

If Jay Cutler could get a solid starting job, he has good potential to do some damage... now if he gets thrown around like JP... then who knows.

Arm strength? What's that? David Klingler had good arm strength too.

Arm Strength...aka, the most overrated component of QB evaluation

If your arm isn't strong enough to throw all the NFL patterns (ie. deep outs, flags or crossing routes) then you have given the defense one less thing to guard against. Smart DC's will game plan you out of the NFL. Granted, it's not the most important component, but it shouldn't be discarded quite so quickly.

Agreed, but none of this year's Big 3 have a question mark in that regard...they all have more than enough arm strength to make the requisite throws.

 

[Pat Patriot]

I know I am in the minority here... but I think JP can be a good QB if given the chance. Has a great arm and great mobility... He already has Vince Young beat with the arm strength... He didn't play poorly with the leagues worst offensive line and a team rebelling against the worst coach in the NFL, Malarkey.

If Jay Cutler could get a solid starting job, he has good potential to do some damage... now if he gets thrown around like JP... then who knows.

Arm strength? What's that? David Klingler had good arm strength too.

Arm Strength...aka, the most overrated component of QB evaluation

How overrated? McNabb, Brady, Manning...all of them have the arm strength. What's the knock on guys like Drew Brees?

Brady was actually considered to have below average armstrength going into the draft. A big reason he slipped to the 6th round.Vince Young bombs. I'll put my name on the haters list.

 

[B-Deep]

I know I am in the minority here... but I think JP can be a good QB if given the chance. Has a great arm and great mobility... He already has Vince Young beat with the arm strength... He didn't play poorly with the leagues worst offensive line and a team rebelling against the worst coach in the NFL, Malarkey.

If Jay Cutler could get a solid starting job, he has good potential to do some damage... now if he gets thrown around like JP... then who knows.

Arm strength? What's that? David Klingler had good arm strength too.

Arm Strength...aka, the most overrated component of QB evaluation

If your arm isn't strong enough to throw all the NFL patterns (ie. deep outs, flags or crossing routes) then you have given the defense one less thing to guard against. Smart DC's will game plan you out of the NFL. Granted, it's not the most important component, but it shouldn't be discarded quite so quickly.

Agreed, but none of this year's Big 3 have a question mark in that regard...they all have more than enough arm strength to make the requisite throws.

Right, there is a BIG difference between not having enough arm strength to compete and not being the strongest arm in the draft

 

[Jason Wood]

I know I am in the minority here... but I think JP can be a good QB if given the chance. Has a great arm and great mobility... He already has Vince Young beat with the arm strength... He didn't play poorly with the leagues worst offensive line and a team rebelling against the worst coach in the NFL, Malarkey.

If Jay Cutler could get a solid starting job, he has good potential to do some damage... now if he gets thrown around like JP... then who knows.

Arm strength? What's that? David Klingler had good arm strength too.

Arm Strength...aka, the most overrated component of QB evaluation

If your arm isn't strong enough to throw all the NFL patterns (ie. deep outs, flags or crossing routes) then you have given the defense one less thing to guard against. Smart DC's will game plan you out of the NFL. Granted, it's not the most important component, but it shouldn't be discarded quite so quickly.

Agreed, but none of this year's Big 3 have a question mark in that regard...they all have more than enough arm strength to make the requisite throws.

Right, there is a BIG difference between not having enough arm strength to compete and not being the strongest arm in the draft

Completely agree. There is diminishing marginal utility to arm strength at a certain point.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

I know I am in the minority here... but I think JP can be a good QB if given the chance. Has a great arm and great mobility... He already has Vince Young beat with the arm strength... He didn't play poorly with the leagues worst offensive line and a team rebelling against the worst coach in the NFL, Malarkey.

If Jay Cutler could get a solid starting job, he has good potential to do some damage... now if he gets thrown around like JP... then who knows.

Arm strength? What's that? David Klingler had good arm strength too.

Arm Strength...aka, the most overrated component of QB evaluation

If your arm isn't strong enough to throw all the NFL patterns (ie. deep outs, flags or crossing routes) then you have given the defense one less thing to guard against. Smart DC's will game plan you out of the NFL. Granted, it's not the most important component, but it shouldn't be discarded quite so quickly.

Agreed, but none of this year's Big 3 have a question mark in that regard...they all have more than enough arm strength to make the requisite throws.

Right, there is a BIG difference between not having enough arm strength to compete and not being the strongest arm in the draft

Completely agree. There is diminishing marginal utility to arm strength at a certain point.

What is this? Econ 101? Well said Jason.

 

[Christo]

1) All world physical traits

2) Intangible leadership

3) Terrible supporting cast

4) Success amidst tons of pass rush pressure

Are we talking about J.P. Losman or Jay Cutler? Oh that's right...both

IIRC, Losman had that going against him coming out of college. Didn't everyone bang him for being a "me first" QB rather than a team player?

 

[redman]

I respect Jaws, so I'm not bashing him. I'd point out, however, that people were saying the same things four years ago with Patrick Ramsey at Tulane. I don't know that getting killed in a wide open passing offense at Tulane prepared Ramsey for the NFL any better than other approaches . . . although he certainly must have had deja vu when Spurrier's (non-)blocking schemes resulted in additional beatings with the 'Skins.

 

[Chaos Commish]

Completely agree. There is diminishing marginal utility to arm strength at a certain point.

So the error is overvaluing a cannon and undervaluing mere adequacy?Agreed.

 

[Jason Wood]

Completely agree. There is diminishing marginal utility to arm strength at a certain point.

So the error is overvaluing a cannon and undervaluing mere adequacy?Agreed.

Well said...exactly. There's no question that a weak arm can not only be a detriment, but pretty much ensures a QB can't be more than a backup/emergency starter. But we put such emphasis on rocket arms. I wonder if NFL scouts devalue arm strength beyond a certain point...

 

[DoctorDetroit]

I respect JAWS more than any other NFL analyst so I take this pretty seriously. The guy watches every single college snap of the QB prospects. Add that with his knowledge and work ethic and you have a pretty good chance of being right.

 

[wannabee]

Completely agree. There is diminishing marginal utility to arm strength at a certain point.

So the error is overvaluing a cannon and undervaluing mere adequacy?Agreed.

Well said...exactly. There's no question that a weak arm can not only be a detriment, but pretty much ensures a QB can't be more than a backup/emergency starter. But we put such emphasis on rocket arms. I wonder if NFL scouts devalue arm strength beyond a certain point...

Jason, I agree. That is like having a spedometer that goes to 125 mph on a 3 cylinder GEO. After a certain level, it is a moot point.

 

[Gargoylez]

I know I am in the minority here... but I think JP can be a good QB if given the chance. Has a great arm and great mobility... He already has Vince Young beat with the arm strength... He didn't play poorly with the leagues worst offensive line and a team rebelling against the worst coach in the NFL, Malarkey.

If Jay Cutler could get a solid starting job, he has good potential to do some damage... now if he gets thrown around like JP... then who knows.

Arm strength? What's that? David Klingler had good arm strength too.

Well without it he isnt a NFL prospect, period. Its kind of required. Plus Losman is in the upper half of the NFL in arm stregnth IMO... I watched in the season opener as he launched a ball 60+ yards down field. Young has questionable arm strength and accuracey. So they say anyways...

 

[Andy Dufresne]

I know I am in the minority here... but I think JP can be a good QB if given the chance. Has a great arm and great mobility... He already has Vince Young beat with the arm strength... He didn't play poorly with the leagues worst offensive line and a team rebelling against the worst coach in the NFL, Malarkey.

If Jay Cutler could get a solid starting job, he has good potential to do some damage... now if he gets thrown around like JP... then who knows.

Arm strength? What's that? David Klingler had good arm strength too.

Well without it he isnt a NFL prospect, period. Its kind of required. Plus Losman is in the upper half of the NFL in arm stregnth IMO... I watched in the season opener as he launched a ball 60+ yards down field. Young has questionable arm strength and accuracey. So they say anyways...

No it's not. Drew Brees and Chad Pennington are all examples of "weaker" armed QBs that are good enough passers where guys like Mike Vick and Aaron Brooks both have cannons but are marginal passers.Actually, looking at all the starting QBs in the league, there doesn't seem to be much correlation between arm strength and passing success. Most QBs seem to have simply "adequate" arm strength.

 

[Jason Wood]

I know I am in the minority here... but I think JP can be a good QB if given the chance. Has a great arm and great mobility... He already has Vince Young beat with the arm strength... He didn't play poorly with the leagues worst offensive line and a team rebelling against the worst coach in the NFL, Malarkey.

If Jay Cutler could get a solid starting job, he has good potential to do some damage... now if he gets thrown around like JP... then who knows.

Arm strength? What's that? David Klingler had good arm strength too.

Well without it he isnt a NFL prospect, period. Its kind of required. Plus Losman is in the upper half of the NFL in arm stregnth IMO... I watched in the season opener as he launched a ball 60+ yards down field. Young has questionable arm strength and accuracey. So they say anyways...

Young has plenty of arm strength, and nary a review I've seen suggests otherwise. Where have you seen his arm strength questioned?

 

[psychobillies]

I'm also high on Cutler, but when it comes right down to it I couldn't take him over Leinart in the draft.  It's not the talent I question since they both are very talented guys, but Leinart has proven himself year after year in the biggest spotlight in football.  If he goes to the Titans he'll actually be under less media attention than in LA.  There seems to be less risk with Leinart even though I prefer Cutler's skills and Leinart is the most NFL ready QB in the draft.  The risk factor and NFL readiness are the reason I also have Cutler above Young.

Fair enough.

Not to hijack my own topic, but there's been several interesting blurbs in a half dozen or so articles claiming the Titans are torn between all three QBs. I have two sources I really trust and I have been trying to get this validated. Both responded last night, and while one was more detailed they said the same thing. Here's how I understand it.

Leinart supporters are led by Chow and are in the smallest minority.

Cutler supporters are led by Fisher and number higher than Leinart supporters.

Young supporters are led by Adams and most of the scouting department.

The Cutler and Young factions are equally negative on the other but both like Leinart a strong second to their preference, thus bumping Leinart considerably in the decision process, which is still far from settled. Sounds like fun.

Interesting...still smell a huge smokescreen here (so the Jets or Raider or ??? don't move up to 2 and grab Leinart in front of Tenny)

1) All world physical traits

2) Intangible leadership

3) Terrible supporting cast

4) Success amidst tons of pass rush pressure

Are we talking about J.P. Losman or Jay Cutler? Oh that's right...both

I am not sure where you heard Losman was a great leader. I recall him having a selfish attitude at Tulane, and pretty much everyone on the team hated him.

Tulane was considering shutting down its football program and Losman led a very public battle to keep the team alive. His leadership skills and command of the huddle were both considered pluses coming into the draft.

I'm not sure how closely you followed the whole TU football program disaster, but to say he led a campaign against it would be innaccurate IMO. The whole city went nuts when they learned about the potential closing. Many politicians, business leaders, fans and alumni as well as the local media practically lynched the president when this was happening. If Losman took a stand against them shutting down football that's great and all, but I'm pretty sure he was just one of many players who strongly opposed the move.

He was a good QB here no doubt, and I'll definitely concede that he had command of the offense, but I will always question his leadership ability based on what his teammates thought of him.

I compare him to Joey Harrington based on the things I have heard about him. He is just not likeable and his team responds accordingly.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

I know I am in the minority here... but I think JP can be a good QB if given the chance. Has a great arm and great mobility... He already has Vince Young beat with the arm strength... He didn't play poorly with the leagues worst offensive line and a team rebelling against the worst coach in the NFL, Malarkey.

If Jay Cutler could get a solid starting job, he has good potential to do some damage... now if he gets thrown around like JP... then who knows.

Arm strength? What's that? David Klingler had good arm strength too.

Well without it he isnt a NFL prospect, period. Its kind of required. Plus Losman is in the upper half of the NFL in arm stregnth IMO... I watched in the season opener as he launched a ball 60+ yards down field. Young has questionable arm strength and accuracey. So they say anyways...

Young has plenty of arm strength, and nary a review I've seen suggests otherwise. Where have you seen his arm strength questioned?

I was wondering whether you or Scotsman would be the first one back with that.

Sounds to me from my reading/watching like all 3 have adequate arm strength with some small whispers about Leinart making EVERY throw, Young being fine and Cutler having a cannon. But as many have pointed out in this thread, Leinart should NOT be discounted because of arm strength and there is no reason based upon arm strength to think that Cutler will be better than Leinart.

 

[Viva Tequila]

What kind of track record does Jaworski have with his ability to scout?? In other words, when he talks...should we listen?? Or is this another effort for a sportscaster to get his name in the lights??

TIA

Are you serious? Yes, you should listen.

Are you serious??Jaws once touted Cade McNown as the most polished QB of the '99 draft. He was quoted as saying, "He (McNown) can make an immediate impact in the National Football League," Jaws said.

Silly me for requesting his overall track record, especially with QB's...

I don't think you can give Jaws any more/less credit than any other analysts. In the '99 draft I would have to the say that the majority of all analysts, whether scouts, coaches or broadcasters were on Tim Couch's jock. I actually liked McNown better than most that year too. In fact, Cade wasn't even that bad coming out of the gate and I think his coaching staff and his surrounding team along with attitude was his downfall. There were 5 QB's taken in the 1st round that year out of 13 picked and only 3 of them are still playing with any significance - McNabb(2) - Cpep(11) - Brooks(131) - a mere 7 seasons later. This is/should be their prime seasons if you give the average 3yrs for QB to learn the NFL systems plus playing experience.Comparison

Name | G | CMP ATT PCT YARD Y/A TD IN | RSH YARD TDCade McNown | 15 | 127 235 54.0 1465 6.2 8 10 | 32 160 0Cade McNown | 10 | 154 280 55.0 1646 5.9 8 9 | 49 326 3

Name                 |  G | CMP ATT   PCT YARD  Y/A TD IN | RSH YARD TDTim Couch            | 15 | 223 399  55.9 2447  6.1 15 13 |  39  278  1Tim Couch            |  7 | 137 215  63.7 1483  6.9  7  9 |  12   45  0Donovan McNabb       | 12 | 106 216  49.1  948  4.4  8  7 |  47  313  0Donovan McNabb       | 16 | 330 569  58.0 3365  5.9 21 13 |  86  629  6Akili Smith          |  7 |  80 153  52.3  805  5.3  2  6 |  19  114  1Akili Smith          | 11 | 118 267  44.2 1253  4.7  3  6 |  42  219  0Daunte Culpepper     |  1 |   0   0   0.0    0  0.0  0  0 |   3    6  0Daunte Culpepper     | 16 | 297 474  62.7 3937  8.3 33 16 |  90  470  7^^^^^^^^^^^ Taken Before McNown ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Shaun King           |  6 |  89 146  61.0  875  6.0  7  4 |  18   38  0Shaun King           | 16 | 233 428  54.4 2769  6.5 18 13 |  73  353  5Aaron Brooks         |  8 | 113 194  58.2 1514  7.8  9  6 |  41  170  2Aaron Brooks         | 16 | 312 558  55.9 3832  6.9 26 22 |  80  358  1

Looking over the data McNown had the 2nd best 1st year behind to Couch, while splitting time with Shane Matthews and Jim Miller both seasons. His only NFL seasons. His supporting cast was Curtis Enis and James Allen at RB and MRob, Engram at WR. Not the most spectacular skill position players. I don't have the heart to scan the OL. **** Jauron was the head coach - puke. I actually think Cade did well for his situation, splitting time on a full time basis, 3 ways. Who could actually excell in that kind of environment? Not only that, he's the only player to have less playing time in his 2nd season had his stats improve! Yet he did not play again Overall what I gather from this is that teams/coaches give up on players too often if the results aren't immediate. Losman could be the next example. He has the skills, but in his 2 yrs of pro experience hasn't put it together yet. He might not get the chance.

Every QB in this draft significantly improved in some manner in their second season out of this class with the exception of Smith. This coulda/shoulda been an exceptional QB class. Circumstances, personalities and fate, dictated otherwise.

So should we respect Jaws' player evaluation ability? I would say YES. It's hard to completely mistake talent. Lots of kids coming out have talent. What they do with it and with which coaching staff they are honing their skills with has a lot more to do with it after they reach the next level then pure athleticism. See Mike Vick.

 

[Aaronstory]

What kind of track record does Jaworski have with his ability to scout??  In other words, when he talks...should we listen??  Or is this another effort for a sportscaster to get his name in the lights??

TIA

Are you serious? Yes, you should listen.

Are you serious??Jaws once touted Cade McNown as the most polished QB of the '99 draft. He was quoted as saying, "He (McNown) can make an immediate impact in the National Football League," Jaws said.

Silly me for requesting his overall track record, especially with QB's...

Name me one evaluator of talent that has been 100% correct on every prospect he ever saw. Ron Wolf's first Packer pick was Buckley for goodness sake.Should you, Joe Shmoe internet fan, listen to Ron Jaworski who not only played the position in question, but gets paid to breakdown film and has the respect of most serious students of the game?

Yes. Yes you should.

 

[Irish]

Who was the last "indisputabley great" quarterback prospect?

As in there was no question he would succeed and lead his team from the get go?

Palmer. Those that were questioning him, never saw him.

There was questions about Palmer, because he only had 1 great season and that was really only 1/2 of a season. Palmer was a bust at USC his first few seasons.

 

[BeTheMatch]

He likes him. He really likes him.

“It’s not my decision, obviously. It’s a tough decision,” Jaworski said. “I have studied all the quarterbacks, and I like [Jay] Cutler the best of them.”

Jaworski says his preference for the Vanderbilt star is not to belittle the accomplishments of the more heralded Matt Leinart and Vince Young. He just believes that the Commodore quarterback is NFL-ready because of the circumstances he played under.

“I think Matt Leinart is going to be very good, and I think Vince Young is going to be very good. … Everyone has different opinions. What I like about Cutler is that he threw with pressure on him,” Jaworski said. “His offensive line wasn’t that good, and I saw throws that you have to make at the NFL level, people around him, bodies, throwing from different platforms, around people, sidearm, over the top, and taking hits looking down the gun barrel.

“I didn’t see a whole lot of separation from his wide receiving corps, so he was throwing through tight windows. He had to throw accurately with pressure on him. That projects well in the National Football League.”

Of course, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and even one of Jaworski’s ESPN cohorts regards Cutler as the draft’s most overrated player right now.

“Mel [Kiper] has his own opinion. I look at the game tape, and that doesn’t lie,” Jaworski said. “When you look at every pass Vince Young has thrown, every pass Jay Cutler has thrown, and every pass Matt Leinart has thrown, you get a pretty good idea. I don’t need anyone to tell me. I played 30 years at the quarterback position, so I’ve got a pretty good feel for it.”

Sounds like Jaws watched the same film I did. Not to pat myself on the back, but you gotta respect Jaws, and he's reporting the exact same things two weeks before the draft that I was writing two weeks before Christmas. Cutler > Leinart.

So, what do you want.... a medal? A cookie? A pat on the back?

 

[Weiner Dog]

What kind of track record does Jaworski have with his ability to scout?? In other words, when he talks...should we listen?? Or is this another effort for a sportscaster to get his name in the lights??

TIA

Are you serious? Yes, you should listen.

Are you serious??Jaws once touted Cade McNown as the most polished QB of the '99 draft. He was quoted as saying, "He (McNown) can make an immediate impact in the National Football League," Jaws said.

Silly me for requesting his overall track record, especially with QB's...

Name me one evaluator of talent that has been 100% correct on every prospect he ever saw. Ron Wolf's first Packer pick was Buckley for goodness sake.Should you, Joe Shmoe internet fan, listen to Ron Jaworski who not only played the position in question, but gets paid to breakdown film and has the respect of most serious students of the game?

Yes. Yes you should.

I'm not looking for 100%...I'm looking for a track record (for which you have yet to provide).I would have to assume his "Cutler will be better than Leinhart and Young" call is not the first shocker call of Jaw's career, right?? What are the others which have panned-out?? Which have fizzled?? Did Jaws pimp Steve Smith as he fell into the 3rd-round of the '01 draft?? On the opposite side of the coin, did he scream "NO" when the Eagles nabbed Freddie Mitchell in the 1st the same year??

 

[redman]

I know I am in the minority here... but I think JP can be a good QB if given the chance. Has a great arm and great mobility... He already has Vince Young beat with the arm strength... He didn't play poorly with the leagues worst offensive line and a team rebelling against the worst coach in the NFL, Malarkey.

If Jay Cutler could get a solid starting job, he has good potential to do some damage... now if he gets thrown around like JP... then who knows.

Arm strength? What's that? David Klingler had good arm strength too.

Well without it he isnt a NFL prospect, period. Its kind of required. Plus Losman is in the upper half of the NFL in arm stregnth IMO... I watched in the season opener as he launched a ball 60+ yards down field. Young has questionable arm strength and accuracey. So they say anyways...

No it's not. Drew Brees and Chad Pennington are all examples of "weaker" armed QBs that are good enough passers where guys like Mike Vick and Aaron Brooks both have cannons but are marginal passers.Actually, looking at all the starting QBs in the league, there doesn't seem to be much correlation between arm strength and passing success. Most QBs seem to have simply "adequate" arm strength.

Joe Montana did pretty well too with a merely average NFL arm.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Hey Chaos,

You're nothing if not consistent in your defense of Cutler. And while I am a big Jaws fan, I can't help but think he likes Cutler the best because he sees himself in Cutler. Always under pressure, having to make plays when you don't have a lot of help, finding a way to win ugly.

Time will tell, you're not alone in your like for Cutler, although you are in the minority (as you know).

Jason, very interesting observation. Many times people will tend to like or overrate players with a similar type of play style or promote people who would make them look good. Another example would be a guy like Chad Pennington talking up Lienert (He didn't do this)

 

[GATOR HATER]

I respect Jaws, so I'm not bashing him. I'd point out, however, that people were saying the same things four years ago with Patrick Ramsey at Tulane. I don't know that getting killed in a wide open passing offense at Tulane prepared Ramsey for the NFL any better than other approaches . . . although he certainly must have had deja vu when Spurrier's (non-)blocking schemes resulted in additional beatings with the 'Skins.

Isn't Jaworski Polish or sumpthing?

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

I know I am in the minority here... but I think JP can be a good QB if given the chance. Has a great arm and great mobility... He already has Vince Young beat with the arm strength... He didn't play poorly with the leagues worst offensive line and a team rebelling against the worst coach in the NFL, Malarkey.

If Jay Cutler could get a solid starting job, he has good potential to do some damage... now if he gets thrown around like JP... then who knows.

Arm strength? What's that? David Klingler had good arm strength too.

Arm Strength...aka, the most overrated component of QB evaluation

If your arm isn't strong enough to throw all the NFL patterns (ie. deep outs, flags or crossing routes) then you have given the defense one less thing to guard against. Smart DC's will game plan you out of the NFL. Granted, it's not the most important component, but it shouldn't be discarded quite so quickly.

Agreed, but none of this year's Big 3 have a question mark in that regard...they all have more than enough arm strength to make the requisite throws.

Right, there is a BIG difference between not having enough arm strength to compete and not being the strongest arm in the draft

Completely agree. There is diminishing marginal utility to arm strength at a certain point.

What is this? Econ 101? Well said Jason.

Wow - way to use that Wharton education

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

What kind of track record does Jaworski have with his ability to scout?? In other words, when he talks...should we listen?? Or is this another effort for a sportscaster to get his name in the lights??

TIA

Are you serious? Yes, you should listen.

Are you serious??Jaws once touted Cade McNown as the most polished QB of the '99 draft. He was quoted as saying, "He (McNown) can make an immediate impact in the National Football League," Jaws said.

Silly me for requesting his overall track record, especially with QB's...

Name me one evaluator of talent that has been 100% correct on every prospect he ever saw. Ron Wolf's first Packer pick was Buckley for goodness sake.Should you, Joe Shmoe internet fan, listen to Ron Jaworski who not only played the position in question, but gets paid to breakdown film and has the respect of most serious students of the game?

Yes. Yes you should.

I'm not looking for 100%...I'm looking for a track record (for which you have yet to provide).I would have to assume his "Cutler will be better than Leinhart and Young" call is not the first shocker call of Jaw's career, right?? What are the others which have panned-out?? Which have fizzled?? Did Jaws pimp Steve Smith as he fell into the 3rd-round of the '01 draft?? On the opposite side of the coin, did he scream "NO" when the Eagles nabbed Freddie Mitchell in the 1st the same year??

I don't quite think it is fair for you to base Jaws' record on anything but QBs. He was a QB so Freddie Mitchell or Steve Smith wouldn't have nearly the bearing on his track record as Cade McNown or others he has been for or against over the years.I like Jaws, but I'd also like to see the track record. He may be projecting his own likeness / abilities to Cutler, seeing himself as he.

Where was Jaws drafted? Answer - 2nd round of the 1973 draft (Rams). (3rd QB overall behind Bert Jones and Gary Huff). Youngstown State wasn't highly regarded for its competitive schedule either.

 

[Texasmouth]

I'll take Vince Young.

 

[Chitown Mole]

You should read about the pressure they put on themselves to break the decades long drought at Tennessee.

Emotional pressure at UT and USC is definitely higher. Jaws was referring to physical pressure. You cannot possibly think Leinart and Young faced anything similar.

When you have a 50 point lead there isn't much pressure...if you watch game film on Texas...where they averaged 50 a game....there isn't much need to throw the ball around. Oh yeah...VY had a little something something to do with those leads...its not like Texas traditionally have always rolled to fiddy a game.

 

[Aaronur]

Always respect the opinion of Jaws.  The guy does his homework like no one else.  One line that caught my attention though...

"What I like about Cutler is that he threw with pressure on him"

I agree and disagree with that statement.  I agree with what Jaws said about lack of protection and surrounding talent.  Yet, on the flipside Cutler had zero pressure on him compared to Leinart and Young.  Being QB at Vandy is nothing compared to be a QB ot UT or SC.  Therefore we don't know how Cutler will react being in a big media market or playing in big games where there's real pressure actually on him.  Not saying he can't deal with it because we can't know due to his circumstances.  Yet, we do know the other two can handle those situations.

Different kinds of pressure. Young and Leinart typically had great protection. Jay would get hammered in three tics. Also, many of Vandy's games last year were true pressure cookers on the field. At Tennessee, at Gainesville... both every bit as pressure packed as many of Young and Leinart's arenas. Those were Jay's best moments, btw.

I strongly disagree that it was the same pressure. Vandy is expected to lose and if they do it's no big deal. That's the type of program they have. That just isn't the case with UT and SC where winning is the only expectation. Young or Leinart in the Rose Bowl or Leinart at ND are situations where there were major implications and the weight of the world was resting on the arm of the QB. Not saying Cutler can't handle that because he hasn't been in that situation. It's one of thoise intangibles we won't know until he gets to the NFL. Who knows he may thrive in that environment.

You should read about the pressure they put on themselves to break the decades long drought at Tennessee. Emotional pressure at UT and USC is definitely higher. Jaws was referring to physical pressure. You cannot possibly think Leinart and Young faced anything similar.

1) All world physical traits2) Intangible leadership

3) Terrible supporting cast

4) Success amidst tons of pass rush pressure

Are we talking about J.P. Losman or Jay Cutler? Oh that's right...both

Playing in the SEC East vs playing in Conference USA isn't that comparable to be honest. Loshaman consistently played bad schools with very few NFL prospects. Granted I am an SEC fan so I probably have a bias.

No bigger bias in all of college sports than an SEC Football fan

 

[tommyGunZ]

Count me as someone who believes that arm strength is NOT overrated. There are plenty of gunslinging busts, but I think that there is a reason the elite arm is so valued by scouts and pro personnel people: it can change game plans and change games in ways that don't necessarily show up in stats.

A cannon means that safeties have to play a couple of steps deeper; that corners can't jump routes as quickly; that play action is much more effective (both with the pass and the run). A QB with a cannon causes defensive coordinators to alter their approach with schemes. Much like the way Vick's legs are far more valuable in the overall success of the Falcons' offensive success than his statistics indicate, a QB with an elite arm positively impacts the success of the running game and the short passing game due to the simple threat of getting beat over the top.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that a rocket arm can incorrectly lead talent evaluators to overrate a prospect. But there's a reason for that. Much like wideouts/backs with world class speed , an Elway type arm changes the way games are schemed on both sides of the ball. The simple threat of the deep ball is invaluable, and is why so many teams will reach for QBs with cannons. Having that weapon in the backfield makes everything some much easier for the offense.

 

[tommyGunZ]

I'll add that I'm somewhat biased in that I've watched safeties and defenses cheat for years against the Chargers because of the lack of a deep threat. Though the offense has excelled, I think one reason many Charger fans are excited about the change to Rivers is the hope that his arm is strong enough to keep defenses honest.

The numbers that LT2 has put up are even more impressive in an offense that doesn't stretch the field and hold the safties for that extra split second that could result in much more success in the running game.

 

[Texasmouth]

I noticed every time we start discussing QB's everyone starts slamming the two other guys that they like less than the one they like. In my opinion, all three of these guys have a really good chance to be successful.

Vince Young is an amazing talent. He knows how to make plays and he can beat you with his arm or legs. A good offensive coordinator will take advantage of what this guy can do.

Matt Lienart is a complete player, doesn't need a great arm to do what he does. He is a great leader and plays not just well, but extremely well under pressure. He isn't very mobile but he doesn't need to be. He can pick you apart before you even realize it.

Jay Cutler is also an amazing talent who will take chances and make plays because of it. He has good mobility and he is pretty acurate as well. He played on a team with far less talent than USC or Texas but still made a name for himself. He makes average players around him better.

Just so everyone knows it, if you like Vince Young, it doesn't mean you have to slam Cutler and Lienart.

 

[CA_7]

Always respect the opinion of Jaws. The guy does his homework like no one else. One line that caught my attention though...

"What I like about Cutler is that he threw with pressure on him"

I agree and disagree with that statement. I agree with what Jaws said about lack of protection and surrounding talent. Yet, on the flipside Cutler had zero pressure on him compared to Leinart and Young. Being QB at Vandy is nothing compared to be a QB ot UT or SC. Therefore we don't know how Cutler will react being in a big media market or playing in big games where there's real pressure actually on him. Not saying he can't deal with it because we can't know due to his circumstances. Yet, we do know the other two can handle those situations.

Who would you rather have trying to learn your NFL play book, watch film and try to read complex defense schemes?- Young: We all know about his Wonderlic score(s)

- Leinart: Seems like a smart kid but can't really speak to his ability regarding this.

- Cutler: While it is no Duke or Stanford, Vanderbilt is a top 20 school that once denied admission to Ron Mercer because he did not meet their academic standards. Mercer did get a satisfactory SAT score to play bball.

 

[Texasmouth]

Always respect the opinion of Jaws.  The guy does his homework like no one else.  One line that caught my attention though...

"What I like about Cutler is that he threw with pressure on him"

I agree and disagree with that statement.  I agree with what Jaws said about lack of protection and surrounding talent.  Yet, on the flipside Cutler had zero pressure on him compared to Leinart and Young.  Being QB at Vandy is nothing compared to be a QB ot UT or SC.  Therefore we don't know how Cutler will react being in a big media market or playing in big games where there's real pressure actually on him.  Not saying he can't deal with it because we can't know due to his circumstances.  Yet, we do know the other two can handle those situations.

Who would you rather have trying to learn your NFL play book, watch film and try to read complex defense schemes?- Young: We all know about his Wonderlic score(s)

- Leinart: Seems like a smart kid but can't really speak to his ability regarding this.

- Cutler: While it is no Duke or Stanford, Vanderbilt is a top 20 school that once denied admission to Ron Mercer because he did not meet their academic standards. Mercer did get a satisfactory SAT score to play bball.

So based on your logic...... Dan Marino should not have been drafted, since he got a 14 on the same "wonderlic" test Young scored a 16 on.

Culpepper took the test three times scoring a 18,21,15. Culpepper was the QB on a team with one of the most complex offensive systems. His score got worse on the third try.....

Donovan McNabb scored a 16 and a 12.

Steve McNair got a 15.

Vinny Testeverde got an 18.

Ryan Leaf= 27

Akili Smith= 31

Craig Krenzel= 38

Kilff Kingsbury=31

Kyle Boller= 27

Joey Harrington= 32

Patrick Ramsey=32

Give me one of the HOF/future HOF guys who scored low over these high scoring "smart" guys.

Take these test results and 55 cents and you can get yourself a coke outside of Walmart.

http://www.macmirabile.com/Wonderlic/Wonderlic.htm

 

[Boston]

Always respect the opinion of Jaws.  The guy does his homework like no one else.  One line that caught my attention though...

"What I like about Cutler is that he threw with pressure on him"

I agree and disagree with that statement.  I agree with what Jaws said about lack of protection and surrounding talent.  Yet, on the flipside Cutler had zero pressure on him compared to Leinart and Young.  Being QB at Vandy is nothing compared to be a QB ot UT or SC.  Therefore we don't know how Cutler will react being in a big media market or playing in big games where there's real pressure actually on him.  Not saying he can't deal with it because we can't know due to his circumstances.  Yet, we do know the other two can handle those situations.

Who would you rather have trying to learn your NFL play book, watch film and try to read complex defense schemes?- Young: We all know about his Wonderlic score(s)

- Leinart: Seems like a smart kid but can't really speak to his ability regarding this.

- Cutler: While it is no Duke or Stanford, Vanderbilt is a top 20 school that once denied admission to Ron Mercer because he did not meet their academic standards. Mercer did get a satisfactory SAT score to play bball.

I don't understand where you're going with this. My post revolved around playing in front of 100,000 fanatics in a national championship, all the marbles are on the line envoronment. It had nothing to do with taking a trig exam. I agree that having a brain helps a QB. There's no doubt that today's playbook has become that much more complicated but my post had nothing to do with smarts. It's about handling pressure.

 

[Boston]

I noticed every time we start discussing QB's everyone starts slamming the two other guys that they like less than the one they like. In my opinion, all three of these guys have a really good chance to be successful.

Vince Young is an amazing talent. He knows how to make plays and he can beat you with his arm or legs. A good offensive coordinator will take advantage of what this guy can do.

Matt Lienart is a complete player, doesn't need a great arm to do what he does. He is a great leader and plays not just well, but extremely well under pressure. He isn't very mobile but he doesn't need to be. He can pick you apart before you even realize it.

Jay Cutler is also an amazing talent who will take chances and make plays because of it. He has good mobility and he is pretty acurate as well. He played on a team with far less talent than USC or Texas but still made a name for himself. He makes average players around him better.

Just so everyone knows it, if you like Vince Young, it doesn't mean you have to slam Cutler and Lienart.

Agreed. Also, when you point out a question you have in someone's game than the supporter of that QB seems to get worked up. It's almost like politics. All three of these guys are big time prospects. That appears to be a given at this point. Yet, there are questions about all their games which is not unusal for any prospect. No one is perfect and it wouldn't be a shock if any of these guys became All Pros...or a bust. It's the nature of the beast in the NFL. Always has been and always will be.

 

[CA_7]

Always respect the opinion of Jaws.  The guy does his homework like no one else.  One line that caught my attention though...

"What I like about Cutler is that he threw with pressure on him"

I agree and disagree with that statement.  I agree with what Jaws said about lack of protection and surrounding talent.  Yet, on the flipside Cutler had zero pressure on him compared to Leinart and Young.  Being QB at Vandy is nothing compared to be a QB ot UT or SC.  Therefore we don't know how Cutler will react being in a big media market or playing in big games where there's real pressure actually on him.  Not saying he can't deal with it because we can't know due to his circumstances.  Yet, we do know the other two can handle those situations.

Who would you rather have trying to learn your NFL play book, watch film and try to read complex defense schemes?- Young: We all know about his Wonderlic score(s)

- Leinart: Seems like a smart kid but can't really speak to his ability regarding this.

- Cutler: While it is no Duke or Stanford, Vanderbilt is a top 20 school that once denied admission to Ron Mercer because he did not meet their academic standards. Mercer did get a satisfactory SAT score to play bball.

So based on your logic...... Dan Marino should not have been drafted, since he got a 14 on the same "wonderlic" test Young scored a 16 on.

Culpepper took the test three times scoring a 18,21,15. Culpepper was the QB on a team with one of the most complex offensive systems. His score got worse on the third try.....

Donovan McNabb scored a 16 and a 12.

Steve McNair got a 15.

Vinny Testeverde got an 18.

Ryan Leaf= 27

Akili Smith= 31

Craig Krenzel= 38

Kilff Kingsbury=31

Kyle Boller= 27

Joey Harrington= 32

Patrick Ramsey=32

Give me one of the HOF/future HOF guys who scored low over these high scoring "smart" guys.

Take these test results and 55 cents and you can get yourself a coke outside of Walmart.

http://www.macmirabile.com/Wonderlic/Wonderlic.htm

Exactly What I was really trying to say is that any member of MENSA would make a better QB than Dan Marino.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Count me as someone who believes that arm strength is NOT overrated. There are plenty of gunslinging busts, but I think that there is a reason the elite arm is so valued by scouts and pro personnel people: it can change game plans and change games in ways that don't necessarily show up in stats.

A cannon means that safeties have to play a couple of steps deeper; that corners can't jump routes as quickly; that play action is much more effective (both with the pass and the run). A QB with a cannon causes defensive coordinators to alter their approach with schemes. Much like the way Vick's legs are far more valuable in the overall success of the Falcons' offensive success than his statistics indicate, a QB with an elite arm positively impacts the success of the running game and the short passing game due to the simple threat of getting beat over the top.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that a rocket arm can incorrectly lead talent evaluators to overrate a prospect. But there's a reason for that. Much like wideouts/backs with world class speed , an Elway type arm changes the way games are schemed on both sides of the ball. The simple threat of the deep ball is invaluable, and is why so many teams will reach for QBs with cannons. Having that weapon in the backfield makes everything some much easier for the offense.

Two other points...a strong arm allows the deep out to be part of the offense and some venues such as Chicago and NY have high winds and if you have a weak arm the DB's can pinch. This happened with pennington once teams scouted him and adjusted knowing what he could and couldn't throw. We saw Eli have some trouble losing his spiral in the wind and he has a better arm than Lienert

 

[diesel7982]

I know I am in the minority here... but I think JP can be a good QB if given the chance. Has a great arm and great mobility... He already has Vince Young beat with the arm strength... He didn't play poorly with the leagues worst offensive line and a team rebelling against the worst coach in the NFL, Malarkey.

If Jay Cutler could get a solid starting job, he has good potential to do some damage... now if he gets thrown around like JP... then who knows.

Arm strength? What's that? David Klingler had good arm strength too.

Arm Strength...aka, the most overrated component of QB evaluation

How overrated? McNabb, Brady, Manning...all of them have the arm strength. What's the knock on guys like Drew Brees?

Brady was actually considered to have below average armstrength going into the draft. A big reason he slipped to the 6th round.Vince Young bombs. I'll put my name on the haters list.

I wonder if the 15 or so pounds of muscle Brady has gained since coming into the league has anything to do with his increase in arm strength?