Jerry Rice vs. Randy Moss (1 Viewer)

[dgreen]

Jerry Rice IS the greatest WR of all time. This thread isn't to claim otherwise.

However, for a long time, Rice has been the GOAT by a pretty large margin over the next guy. "The next guy" tends to be Don Hutson in many minds, but there is at least some argument about who is "the next guy". For awhile, Randy Moss was viewed as "the next guy" and a legitimate contender to Rice down the road. Then he went to Oakland and people started to even question his HOF worthiness. Now in NE, he is looking like what we always knew he could be: a contender to Rice.

So, what's the gap here? How much can Moss close that gap? How good of a chance does Moss have to make a move on Rice for GOAT?

 

[Ozymandias]

He won't catch Jerry Rice because of his two years in Oakland. Otherwise he might have. Moss is 30 years old now, and he has achieved a little more than 50% of Rice's yardage, and about 60% of the td's.

 

[Sidewinder16]

I think Yudkin posted something about this in the past day or so. If I can't find it before he gets in here, maybe he'll repost or link to it.

 

[TheGreatest]

Rice>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Moss

Not even close IMO.

Moss might sniff Rice's single season TD record this year but many people forget that Rice set that record in a 12 game strike shortened year. That is simply amazing. Was on a 16gm pace for a 29 TDs!!

The most amazing thing about Rice is how he took care of his body which enabled him to play into his 40's. No way will Moss be able to do that.

ETA: Don't get me wrong. If Moss had Jerry's head, heart, and amazing desire.....he could of been the greatest. Cause we all know he has the talent.

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

The gap is Moss >>> Rice. HTH

 

[dgreen]

He won't catch Jerry Rice because of his two years in Oakland.

Are you simply referring to career totals here?I'm trying to get more at the subjective GOAT rankings we all like to do. Right now, you won't find one intelligent person who claims Jerry Rice was not the greatest WR of all time. I'm wondering what Moss will have to do to at least make it an argument. Does he have to challenge Rice's career numbers to do that?If you remove Rice's final two seasons where he didn't play much, he averaged 5.3 receptions, 78.6 receiving yards, and .68 receiving TDs per game. Moss currently averages 5.0 receptions, 79.1 receiving yards, and .77 receiving TDs per game.

 

[dgreen]

The gap is Moss >>> Rice. HTH

Right now, you won't find one intelligent person who claims Jerry Rice was not the greatest WR of all time.

 

[Sidewinder16]

I think Yudkin posted something about this in the past day or so. If I can't find it before he gets in here, maybe he'll repost or link to it.

Here it is.

I don't think Moss is big on stats and chasing records, but if he were to stick around . . .

He's on pace this year for 100-1650-21. If he actually stays on track over the last 7 games and finishes with that stat line, that would mean his career numbers through AGE 30 would be in the neighborhood of:

775 receptions, 12350 receiving yards, and 122 TD.

Just to take a shot in the dark if he were to stay there 5 more years and was consistently productive, he could garner another 400 receptions, 6500 receiving yards, and 50+ TD. For the computationally impaired, that averages out to 80-1300-10 per season.

So at 35 he could be in the vicinity of: 1175-18850-172. That would leave him 374-4045-25 short of Jerry Rice's records.

Again, I'm not sure Moss could care less about chasing Rice's career totals, but it could put him in the discussion of being able to mount a charge to get to those levels if he played long enough and stayed healthy (neither of which I would say are very likely to happen).

 

[fantasyplayer]

He won't catch Jerry Rice because of his two years in Oakland. Otherwise he might have. Moss is 30 years old now, and he has achieved a little more than 50% of Rice's yardage, and about 60% of the td's.

And 0% of the Super Bowl rings.

 

[Ozymandias]

He won't catch Jerry Rice because of his two years in Oakland.

Are you simply referring to career totals here?I'm trying to get more at the subjective GOAT rankings we all like to do. Right now, you won't find one intelligent person who claims Jerry Rice was not the greatest WR of all time. I'm wondering what Moss will have to do to at least make it an argument. Does he have to challenge Rice's career numbers to do that?If you remove Rice's final two seasons where he didn't play much, he averaged 5.3 receptions, 78.6 receiving yards, and .68 receiving TDs per game. Moss currently averages 5.0 receptions, 79.1 receiving yards, and .77 receiving TDs per game.

If you are talking about the intangibles, then it isn't even a contest. Rice was the consummate professional, and gave 100%, all the time. Moss probably has even greater physical skills, but he's a loafer. Rice will always be the GOAT.

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

The gap is Moss >>> Rice. HTH

Right now, you won't find one intelligent person who claims Jerry Rice was not the greatest WR of all time.

Jerry Rice is the healthiest great WR of all time. He also is the only WR and probably only NFL player that you could divide their career up into two distinct careers and both of them would be HOF worthy.

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

He won't catch Jerry Rice because of his two years in Oakland. Otherwise he might have. Moss is 30 years old now, and he has achieved a little more than 50% of Rice's yardage, and about 60% of the td's.

And 0% of the Super Bowl rings.

Oh Jesus.

 

[Saints-Man]

It is too early to measure things like this. This can only be done after a player's career is over.

Some things to consider. In his first few years, he was not the #1 WR on his own team. Cris Carter was.

Carter last played for the Vikings in 2000. When we talk about being great, you need to be at least the #1 WR on your own team. Let's take his career from 2001:

2001 Min 82/1233/10

2002 Min 106/1347/ 7

2003 Min 111/1632/17

2004 Min 49/ 767/13

2005 Oak 60/1005/ 8

2006 Oak 42/ 553/3

In these 6 seasons, you have one great year(2003), two good years(2001,2002), two average years(2004 & 2005), and one bad year(2006). I would not consider this stretch top-5 material.

I have not included 2007 in these stats. If he continues at his current pace(definitely a great year) and plays this way for several more years, that would add more data to the argument. But, if he should decide to stop playing football tomorrow, I don't think his numbers would be HOF much less in the argument for GOAT.

 

[dgreen]

I think Yudkin posted something about this in the past day or so. If I can't find it before he gets in here, maybe he'll repost or link to it.

Here it is.

I don't think Moss is big on stats and chasing records, but if he were to stick around . . .

He's on pace this year for 100-1650-21. If he actually stays on track over the last 7 games and finishes with that stat line, that would mean his career numbers through AGE 30 would be in the neighborhood of:

775 receptions, 12350 receiving yards, and 122 TD.

Just to take a shot in the dark if he were to stay there 5 more years and was consistently productive, he could garner another 400 receptions, 6500 receiving yards, and 50+ TD. For the computationally impaired, that averages out to 80-1300-10 per season.

So at 35 he could be in the vicinity of: 1175-18850-172. That would leave him 374-4045-25 short of Jerry Rice's records.

Again, I'm not sure Moss could care less about chasing Rice's career totals, but it could put him in the discussion of being able to mount a charge to get to those levels if he played long enough and stayed healthy (neither of which I would say are very likely to happen).

I'd still have to see one other very important thing even if Moss reached those kind of career numbers. Moss would still need to close the gap with Rice in the postseason. Moss currently has better YPG and TDPG in the postseason than Rice, but Rice's averages are in a lot more games and he has big moments and even a SB MVP.

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

I have not included 2007 in these stats. If he continues at his current pace(definitely a great year) and plays this way for several more years, that would add more data to the argument. But, if he should decide to stop playing football tomorrow, I don't think his numbers would be HOF much less in the argument for GOAT.

What planet are you from?

 

[dgreen]

The gap is Moss >>> Rice. HTH

Right now, you won't find one intelligent person who claims Jerry Rice was not the greatest WR of all time.

Jerry Rice is the healthiest great WR of all time. He also is the only WR and probably only NFL player that you could divide their career up into two distinct careers and both of them would be HOF worthy.

Very cool. Never thought of that before.

 

[TheGreatest]

I have not included 2007 in these stats. If he continues at his current pace(definitely a great year) and plays this way for several more years, that would add more data to the argument. But, if he should decide to stop playing football tomorrow, I don't think his numbers would be HOF much less in the argument for GOAT.

What planet are you from?

The same planet that keeps Art Monk out of the HOF with better numbers.....w/ exception of TDs...

 

[Saints-Man]

The gap is Moss >>> Rice. HTH

Right now, you won't find one intelligent person who claims Jerry Rice was not the greatest WR of all time.

Jerry Rice is the healthiest great WR of all time. He also is the only WR and probably only NFL player that you could divide their career up into two distinct careers and both of them would be HOF worthy.

KRS, that is a backhanded compliment. First of all, Rice did suffere a major injury that cost him effectively an entire year. Also, Rice avoided some of the injuries of other players because of his supreme conditioning and work ethic. Injury has a certain unpredictable risk factor, but by maintaining your body you minimize that risk. That should be considedered a plus for Rice, not a negative.

 

[TheGreatest]

The gap is Moss >>> Rice. HTH

Right now, you won't find one intelligent person who claims Jerry Rice was not the greatest WR of all time.

Jerry Rice is the healthiest great WR of all time. He also is the only WR and probably only NFL player that you could divide their career up into two distinct careers and both of them would be HOF worthy.

Very cool. Never thought of that before.

Bruce Mathews comes to mind.

 

[Saints-Man]

I have not included 2007 in these stats. If he continues at his current pace(definitely a great year) and plays this way for several more years, that would add more data to the argument. But, if he should decide to stop playing football tomorrow, I don't think his numbers would be HOF much less in the argument for GOAT.

What planet are you from?

Earth.KRS, I am neither a Moss hater or fan. I am going by his on-the-field accomplishments. Great WRs don't have the mediocre to bad years in the prime of their careers as Moss has had. You are only looking at his good years, not his overall career.

 

[Sidewinder16]

I'm trying to get more at the subjective GOAT rankings we all like to do. Right now, you won't find one intelligent person who claims Jerry Rice was not the greatest WR of all time. I'm wondering what Moss will have to do to at least make it an argument. Does he have to challenge Rice's career numbers to do that?

In my opinion, he not only would have to make at least a decent run at Rice's career numbers, but he'll have to have the postseason success, as well.Moss has only played in 8 postseason games and he's put up 35/723/9 in those games. Rice put up 33/589/8 in just his 4 Super Bowls.Despite what one may believe about how much a team's postseason success, including Super Bowl wins, can be attributed to a WR, until Randy does it in the big games, and as long as Rice did, he won't be GOAT.

 

[Crazy8s]

I don't know how to really say it. But when I think of Rice, I think of a LEGEND of that postion. When I think of Moss, I think of a good-to-great receiver. I don't know if I explained it well enough.

 

[Saints-Man]

I have not included 2007 in these stats. If he continues at his current pace(definitely a great year) and plays this way for several more years, that would add more data to the argument. But, if he should decide to stop playing football tomorrow, I don't think his numbers would be HOF much less in the argument for GOAT.

What planet are you from?

The same planet that keeps Art Monk out of the HOF with better numbers.....w/ exception of TDs...

Exactly. Art Monk had a better career numbers-wise and is still not in the HOF.

 

[Saints-Man]

I don't know how to really say it. But when I think of Rice, I think of a LEGEND of that postion. When I think of Moss, I think of a good-to-great receiver. I don't know if I explained it well enough.

I undestand what you mean and I agree. His career has been too up and down to be considered great at this point. Now, if he stays with NE & Brady and they go on a 3-4 year run, then my evaluation could change.

 

[dgreen]

I don't know how to really say it. But when I think of Rice, I think of a LEGEND of that postion. When I think of Moss, I think of a good-to-great receiver. I don't know if I explained it well enough.

So you don't think Moss is even in the conversation for 2nd greatest WR all time?

 

[FFdork]

One of the big knocks against Moss in the past has been his poor conditioning habits. If he had adopted a Jerry Rice work ethic early in his career, I think he would have destroyed the records because he would have continued to improve his game and probably stayed healthier.

He was a little one dimensional (although absolutely dominant at what he did) for much of his career. He's been more of a complete receiver this year, but it's too little too late to make a run at GOAT IHMO.

 

[dgreen]

Moss has only played in 8 postseason games and he's put up 35/723/9 in those games. Rice put up 33/589/8 in just his 4 Super Bowls.

 

[Saints-Man]

I don't know how to really say it. But when I think of Rice, I think of a LEGEND of that postion. When I think of Moss, I think of a good-to-great receiver. I don't know if I explained it well enough.

So you don't think Moss is even in the conversation for 2nd greatest WR all time?

At this point in his career, absolutely not. That is why I posted(I realize this question is not directed at me) that these things should not be considered until a player's career is over. I would rate Michael Irvin over him, for one.

 

[Saints-Man]

Moss has only played in 8 postseason games and he's put up 35/723/9 in those games. Rice put up 33/589/8 in just his 4 Super Bowls.

Those types of comparisons show how great the difference really is.

 

[TheGreatest]

I don't know how to really say it. But when I think of Rice, I think of a LEGEND of that postion. When I think of Moss, I think of a good-to-great receiver. I don't know if I explained it well enough.

So you don't think Moss is even in the conversation for 2nd greatest WR all time?

At this point in his career, absolutely not. That is why I posted(I realize this question is not directed at me) that these things should not be considered until a player's career is over. I would rate Michael Irvin over him, for one.

I would put M. Harrison over him as of today......

 

[Sidewinder16]

I don't know how to really say it. But when I think of Rice, I think of a LEGEND of that postion. When I think of Moss, I think of a good-to-great receiver. I don't know if I explained it well enough.

So you don't think Moss is even in the conversation for 2nd greatest WR all time?

At this point in his career, absolutely not. That is why I posted(I realize this question is not directed at me) that these things should not be considered until a player's career is over. I would rate Michael Irvin over him, for one.

I think you're vastly underestimating how good Moss is.

 

[Saints-Man]

...I would put M. Harrison over him as of today......

I would do so also, and by a large margin. I was attempting to stick to someone who was retired.

 

[dgreen]

...I would put M. Harrison over him as of today......

I would do so also, and by a large margin. I was attempting to stick to someone who was retired.

I don't know. I watch Harrison and think, "Nice play. He's good." I watch Moss and think, "Wow! That was awesome!"

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

I have not included 2007 in these stats. If he continues at his current pace(definitely a great year) and plays this way for several more years, that would add more data to the argument. But, if he should decide to stop playing football tomorrow, I don't think his numbers would be HOF much less in the argument for GOAT.

What planet are you from?

The same planet that keeps Art Monk out of the HOF with better numbers.....w/ exception of TDs...

Exactly. Art Monk had a better career numbers-wise and is still not in the HOF.

Why do I have to do this every year?

This is not the baseball HOF.

 

[Ozymandias]

...I would put M. Harrison over him as of today......

I would do so also, and by a large margin. I was attempting to stick to someone who was retired.

I don't know. I watch Harrison and think, "Nice play. He's good." I watch Moss and think, "Wow! That was awesome!"

Of course. His SKILLS are awesome. The rest is not.

 

[Saints-Man]

...



I think you're vastly underestimating how good Moss is?

I am not. Is it possible that you are vastly overestimating how good Moss is.This is not about talent evaluation. This is about performance. One TD is worth 6 points,that is all. If Moss makes a great one-handed catch over 2 defenders, that is one TD. It counts the same when Harrison runs such a perfect route that he creates separation from the defense(w/o pushing off btw) and catches a pass with some breathing room. From your posts, I am inferring that in these two cases you see Moss as vastly superior. I see them as different levels of greatness.

Moss also regularly drops easy passes when going over the middle (2-3 examples of that in the Indy game), a factor which you seem to ignore.

He is a poor route runner, even though he has improved some this year. I think you are getting swayed by the 'wow' factor of some of his catches. Some are amazing, I agree. But being great is about playing with consistency, and Moss is severly lacking in that regard over the span of his career.

 

[Ghost Rider]

...I would put M. Harrison over him as of today......

I would do so also, and by a large margin. I was attempting to stick to someone who was retired.

I don't know. I watch Harrison and think, "Nice play. He's good." I watch Moss and think, "Wow! That was awesome!"

Moss is more likely make the WOW play, but Harrison has been a better NFL WR, in every way.

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

There really can be no debate about the first six.RiceBrownCarterOwensMossHarrison

The exception I would make is that Moss is only in if he regains some semblance of productivity. If he falls off the face of the earth at this point, I think voters will count his personality and his short span of productivity against him. (Short relative to the peer group listed). But if he puts up a couple more decent seasons he'll definitely be in.

I agree. I don't think Moss is a lock yet, but a few good years in New England will cement his place.

Moss was one of THE 3 best WRs in the game for a span of 5-6 years, starting with his ROOKIE season. He doesn't need any additional stats or good years to qualify as a HOFer. If a voter wants to hold his attitude and off the field issues against him, so be it. He is HOF ready RIGHT NOW IMO.Put his 6 best years up against any other WR's 6 best years in the last 20 years and let's see how he stacks up.

Since when are "best 6 years" the criteria?

Because this isn't the MLB HOF where "above mediocre for 12 years" qualifies you for the HOF. NFL HOF is about dominating your peers over a shorter (but non flukey) period of time. It's the reason Drew Bledsoe and Vinny Testaverde have no chance at the HOF, despite being top 10 overall in most QB categories, while Steve Young (barely top 20 in any passing category) is.Randy Moss made guys like Jeff George, Todd Bouman and Gus Frerotte look like all pros on the stat sheet. Even a past his prime Randy Moss made Kerry Collins look serviceable at the end of his career. Randall Cunningham @ 35 years old stepped onto the field with a rookie Moss and had his best season as a passer.Randy Moss is very easy to dislike (understatement). He's childish. He gets in trouble off the field. He doesn't have the work ethic other great players are known for. And you know what? He still dominated his position when he stepped on the field. Harrison and Moss were 1A and 1B for years in the NFL. If you were starting a team in his prime and had your choice of any WR in the league, Moss wouldn't have been chosen later than 3 by any GM for half a decade.That's a HOFer.

 

[TheGreatest]

There really can be no debate about the first six.RiceBrownCarterOwensMossHarrison

The exception I would make is that Moss is only in if he regains some semblance of productivity. If he falls off the face of the earth at this point, I think voters will count his personality and his short span of productivity against him. (Short relative to the peer group listed). But if he puts up a couple more decent seasons he'll definitely be in.

I agree. I don't think Moss is a lock yet, but a few good years in New England will cement his place.

Moss was one of THE 3 best WRs in the game for a span of 5-6 years, starting with his ROOKIE season. He doesn't need any additional stats or good years to qualify as a HOFer. If a voter wants to hold his attitude and off the field issues against him, so be it. He is HOF ready RIGHT NOW IMO.Put his 6 best years up against any other WR's 6 best years in the last 20 years and let's see how he stacks up.

Since when are "best 6 years" the criteria?

Because this isn't the MLB HOF where "above mediocre for 12 years" qualifies you for the HOF. NFL HOF is about dominating your peers over a shorter (but non flukey) period of time. It's the reason Drew Bledsoe and Vinny Testaverde have no chance at the HOF, despite being top 10 overall in most QB categories, while Steve Young (barely top 20 in any passing category) is.Randy Moss made guys like Jeff George, Todd Bouman and Gus Frerotte look like all pros on the stat sheet. Even a past his prime Randy Moss made Kerry Collins look serviceable at the end of his career. Randall Cunningham @ 35 years old stepped onto the field with a rookie Moss and had his best season as a passer.Randy Moss is very easy to dislike (understatement). He's childish. He gets in trouble off the field. He doesn't have the work ethic other great players are known for. And you know what? He still dominated his position when he stepped on the field. Harrison and Moss were 1A and 1B for years in the NFL. If you were starting a team in his prime and had your choice of any WR in the league, Moss wouldn't have been chosen later than 3 by any GM for half a decade.That's a HOFer.

You know whats interesting? Although Moss led the league 3 times in TDs for a season...he never led the league in Receiving yards for a season....

 

[Saints-Man]

...I would put M. Harrison over him as of today......

I would do so also, and by a large margin. I was attempting to stick to someone who was retired.

I don't know. I watch Harrison and think, "Nice play. He's good." I watch Moss and think, "Wow! That was awesome!"

Why is that? Because Moss is fast? Because he has made some great one handed-catches(Harrison has also, but not with the frequency of Moss or the level of difficulty)? What about Harrison's great route-running as compared to Moss? Talk about a wow factor. You may be getting caught up in the pure aesthetics of his athleticism. When he brings it, they can be impressive. However, his play is mercurial. He'll make a great one-handed catch one play, and then not hustle after the ball the next play. Until this year, his play has been woefully inconsistent. If you run a great route and get separation from the defender, you don't have to make the great catch. The great ones make the difficult play look easy, no matter the sport. You are remembering Moss solely from his wow plays. Go look at old game tapes. Watch him. He loafs for about 2 plays, and then tries for 2. After three sets of trying (total of 6 plays), he may do something exciting. That is one out of 12 plays. If you only look at the highlites, then you can be wowed at that. But greatness in every play consistency, and I think you are ignoring the fact that Moss has failed to live up in this regard.

 

[Saints-Man]

...I would put M. Harrison over him as of today......

I would do so also, and by a large margin. I was attempting to stick to someone who was retired.

I don't know. I watch Harrison and think, "Nice play. He's good." I watch Moss and think, "Wow! That was awesome!"

Of course. His SKILLS are awesome. The rest is not.

Well stated, Ozymandias.

 

[Ghost Rider]

...I would put M. Harrison over him as of today......

I would do so also, and by a large margin. I was attempting to stick to someone who was retired.

I don't know. I watch Harrison and think, "Nice play. He's good." I watch Moss and think, "Wow! That was awesome!"

Why is that? Because Moss is fast? Because he has made some great one handed-catches(Harrison has also, but not with the frequency of Moss or the level of difficulty)? What about Harrison's great route-running as compared to Moss? Talk about a wow factor. You may be getting caught up in the pure aesthetics of his athleticism. When he brings it, they can be impressive. However, his play is mercurial. He'll make a great one-handed catch one play, and then not hustle after the ball the next play. Until this year, his play has been woefully inconsistent. If you run a great route and get separation from the defender, you don't have to make the great catch. The great ones make the difficult play look easy, no matter the sport. You are remembering Moss solely from his wow plays. Go look at old game tapes. Watch him. He loafs for about 2 plays, and then tries for 2. After three sets of trying (total of 6 plays), he may do something exciting. That is one out of 12 plays. If you only look at the highlites, then you can be wowed at that. But greatness in every play consistency, and I think you are ignoring the fact that Moss has failed to live up in this regard.

 

[Saints-Man]

...Because this isn't the MLB HOF where "above mediocre for 12 years" qualifies you for the HOF. NFL HOF is about dominating your peers over a shorter (but non flukey) period of time. It's the reason Drew Bledsoe and Vinny Testaverde have no chance at the HOF, despite being top 10 overall in most QB categories, while Steve Young (barely top 20 in any passing category) is.

Randy Moss made guys like Jeff George, Todd Bouman and Gus Frerotte look like all pros on the stat sheet. Even a past his prime Randy Moss made Kerry Collins look serviceable at the end of his career. Randall Cunningham @ 35 years old stepped onto the field with a rookie Moss and had his best season as a passer.

Randy Moss is very easy to dislike (understatement). He's childish. He gets in trouble off the field. He doesn't have the work ethic other great players are known for. And you know what? He still dominated his position when he stepped on the field. Harrison and Moss were 1A and 1B for years in the NFL. If you were starting a team in his prime and had your choice of any WR in the league, Moss wouldn't have been chosen later than 3 by any GM for half a decade.

That's a HOFer.

That is pure speculation on your part.

 

[MOAT]

I'm not a Moss hater, he might have the greatest skills of all time. However, I don't see him becoming the GOAT. A GOAT is not only the dominate receiver during his playing time but also is a leader, makes others around him better, and adjusts his game as his skills diminish. I don't see Moss overtaking Rice in this area.

However, Moss is not retired yet. Moss "could" change his past ways and make a run but his past actions don't lead me to believe that he will. I believe that Moss' play in NE is more a factor of Brady than Brady's numbers are a factor of Moss. Put Moss back on a terrible team and he will disappear again.

Moss IS exciting to watch and is still one of the most dangerous WRs in the game today. It will take a few years to see if he has grown up or just happy because they are winning.

Edit: HOF? Yes. GOAT? Not yet.

 

[dgreen]

But being great is about playing with consistency, and Moss is severly lacking in that regard over the span of his career.

Severely lacking?

Moss vs. Harrison standard deviations by game up through 2006:

Receptions:

Moss = 2.6

Harrison = 2.8

Receiving yards:

Moss = 47.5

Harrison = 42.8

If Moss is severely lacking in consistency, then Harrison is too.

 

[Sidewinder16]

...



I think you're vastly underestimating how good Moss is?

I am not. Is it possible that you are vastly overestimating how good Moss is.

Not a chance. I've been watching football for as long as all of these guys have played (Rice, Moss, Harrison, Irvin) and if you tell me I can have any one of them to build a team around I can't rank them any way other than:Rice

Moss

Harrison

Irvin

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

...Because this isn't the MLB HOF where "above mediocre for 12 years" qualifies you for the HOF. NFL HOF is about dominating your peers over a shorter (but non flukey) period of time. It's the reason Drew Bledsoe and Vinny Testaverde have no chance at the HOF, despite being top 10 overall in most QB categories, while Steve Young (barely top 20 in any passing category) is.

Randy Moss made guys like Jeff George, Todd Bouman and Gus Frerotte look like all pros on the stat sheet. Even a past his prime Randy Moss made Kerry Collins look serviceable at the end of his career. Randall Cunningham @ 35 years old stepped onto the field with a rookie Moss and had his best season as a passer.

Randy Moss is very easy to dislike (understatement). He's childish. He gets in trouble off the field. He doesn't have the work ethic other great players are known for. And you know what? He still dominated his position when he stepped on the field. Harrison and Moss were 1A and 1B for years in the NFL. If you were starting a team in his prime and had your choice of any WR in the league, Moss wouldn't have been chosen later than 3 by any GM for half a decade.

That's a HOFer.

That is pure speculation on your part.

And what you're doing is...?I'll hang up and listen.

 

[az_prof]

For Moss to catch Rice in terms of career statistics, he needs to take better care of his body so that he can play for another ten years. It's possible, but I doubt he does it.

On the other hand, in terms of talent, there is no doubt that Moss is greater than Rice. Rice played with Joe Montana and Steve Young. Think having a HOF QB doesn't help a WR? Look at Moss with Brady and Moss with Andrew Walters.

Moss's QBs? An ancient Randall Cunningham; Jeff George; Brad Johnson; Andrew Walters; Brooks at the end of his career. Yes, he had a few good years with Cpep, but it is clear now which player made the other better. Now he has a great QB in Brady and does anyone question how much further ahead of Rice Moss would be if he had a QB like Brady or Manning or Young or Montana his whole career?

 

[dgreen]

I believe that Moss' play in NE is more a factor of Brady than Brady's numbers are a factor of Moss.

So the QB who never topped 28 TDs is the reason the WR who is already 5th in all time TD receptions is doing well?Moss has made many average QBs looked phenomenal.

 

[MOAT]

...



I think you're vastly underestimating how good Moss is?

I am not. Is it possible that you are vastly overestimating how good Moss is.

Not a chance. I've been watching football for as long as all of these guys have played (Rice, Moss, Harrison, Irvin) and if you tell me I can have any one of them to build a team around I can't rank them any way other than:Rice

Moss

Harrison

Irvin

I'd rank the same way. I have a grudge against Irvin for being a Cowboy but that should balance out the Cowboys fans.