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It's illogical to extend the punishment beyond the people responsible. When a player beats the crap out of his girlfriend, is that deserving of shutting down the whole program? What if he kills her?ETA: I'm not bringing up these as equal examples of events. I'm just trying to determine the line you guys are drawing.
What theory is that?You can put their little theory in the "debunked" category.You guys realize you're basically saying "society allowed football to become a rock for administrators to hide behind should they choose to do so" right? What boggles my mind is you're completely ignoring the fact it was still THEIR choice. That's where focus should be.Now I will say, I think it's in PSU's best interest to shut it down for this year (at least). I can't imagine the university being willing to put the kids and coaches in the position of having to deal with this, especially on the road. There's a part of me that thinks they might even want to think about changing the uniforms. I don't think the NCAA should have any say in this decision though.Exactly.The culture of football is king enabled these decisions to be made. You don't think this happens for a former econ professor, do you? That is the difference.The "programs" didn't make these decisions. Individuals did and used the programs to justify those decisions. There's a difference there.Its not about child molesting. People will go to jail for that. Its about not allowing football (and to a lesser extent basketball) programs to control universities. It is clear that PSU football controlled the actions of the University, not the other way around.How did that happen? Who enabled Paterno to dictate how a university president should react to allegations of criminal behavior. That should never be the decision of an athletic coach. That is where PSU, the institution, failed. Individuals broke the law, and they will be dealt with. The University allowed the football program to live by their own rules, and that should be addressed.
First, it's not "you guys", it's just me. I don't want to speak for anyone else because they may have a different opinion.Now to answer your question: collective punishment can be unfortunate, but sometimes necessary. USC was just put on probation for 3 years because of something Reggie Bush did over 6 years ago. By the time the probation was carried out, Bush was long gone, and the players, coaches, fans, and businesses connected with Trojan football who paid the price had nothing to do with Bush's crime. Yet I don't recall anyone making this objection because it happens all the time.
What if the head coach and the school's top officials knew about the beatings/murder and didn't report it, and tried to sweep it under the rug, so the player could continue to help the team?
The player and everyone who enabled/aided in it should be gone. No reason to go beyond that
Why do you keep using NCAA rules violations as direct comparisons to breaking of real laws? When you do that, you trivialize the molestation incident IMO. I guess a better question to you is, why stop at the football team? Why that line? Why not shut the school down? I get the "collateral damage" angle, but that term implies that some of the unfortunate by standers couldn't be kept out of the scenario. That's not the case here.
Why is this argument taking hold here? This is always how college's are punished, unfortunately. What do Matt Barkley and Lane Kiffin have to do with the conduct of Reggie Bush and blinders worn by Pete Carroll? Its the nature of the beast, and I could personally give less than a crap about people not having a team to watch. As for the student-athletes, I think the NCAA's current plan should remain in place, they should be afforded penalty free transfers.
We have NEVER seen the NCAA punish for a problem this severe. To suggest this is close to similar to Reggie Bush or any other player/coach/booster as justification for some sort of NCAA sanction tells me, folks don't get the magnitude of the problem. This is bigger than breaking the stupid rules of the NCAA and it's bigger than the NCAA in general. What these individuals did is unprecedented.
It's actually nothing like that.
So your argument is that this problem is worse than any other problem the NCAA has looked at, so because it's worse, the NCAA should do nothing?The NCAA doing something does not eliminate other law enforcement options. The larger magnitude can still be addressed. Do you think the state of PA will sit on it's ### because the NCAA killed the football program?
Hate to Hipple this thread but I've been offline since Thursday night. Anyway, this post is excellent at showing the differences in this thread and really this board among people. Some of are like Tim: We can see nuances in this thread and in others here. We see Gray. Others here are like pittstownkiller, where everything must be 100%, committed, Black and White. I don't think that one side is more "right" than the other, although I usually land on the Gray side. But I never understand why the Black and White crowd gets so upset at the Gray side. It's odd.'pittstownkiller said:
I think this is an excellent summary of Paterno.'Godsbrother said:
Talked to another alum yesterday and we agree that there is a split between the alumni: Those like you mentioned above and those like us that think the statue, Library name should come down and we should self-punish the football program. We're hoping our side wins, but we both think there may need to be compromise between the two groups.'Godsbrother said:
Well, I can only speak for myself but sometimes when people are picking the "Gray" they are really picking nothing or blurring the lines between two clear positions and muddying the waters. Tim's Gray positions are frequently dishonest or mask his squishy coreless inability to commit to what is right, and frequently he is wrong and his "reasonable" "nuanced" positions provide cover for what is clearly a bad position. Like defending a child rape enabler like Paterno. To logical people with no emotional investment in the situation, it was completely obvious Paterno was lying and covering up and enabling child rape. To people like Tim who always need more evidence and arent sure and have no core so they must blow in the wind based on their feelings and emotions, he kept saying "it would be wrong if he did it, but I need more". He was an idiot and he knows it.You know what, after the Freeh report there are STILL people not in the Paterno family pulling a Timsquishy and saying the Freeh Report doesnt matter. It is perfectly fine to be thoughtful and reasonable and attempt to see both sides of an issue. The problem with Tim and the Gray sometimes is it gives cover and Wrong.
Upset isn't the word I would choose, I don't even know if I would go with black and white to discribe my "punishment" towards this problem; it is more that I find Tim's POV compelling but his solutions manufactured to try to appease both sides. I always find myself gravitating to Tim's posts, and frequently commenting on them, but I do hold my tongue a lot because I believe he thinks I am trolling him. I, in general, disagree with the punishment of just the football program since I feel it was a school problem and believe that the punishment of just this program makes it sound like an isolated incident. If the people running the school let this program get so big that they lost control of it, then they committed a wrongdoing too. The Board of Trustees, and the school's heirarchy, failed at the job they were hired (or volunteered) to do; by punishing just the football program I feel it would allow future programs to let their sports programs do anything they want since it is isolated from the school. I do not think though that PSU should be punished in any sort of sense that would destroy the school and should be firing everyone, including the Board, instead. To get back to your post, I feel that this board gives you an opportunity to share your opinion but I find that a "nuanced" one lacks conviction and has frequently been an issue for me with Tim. Lack of conviction will not do, since we are here to fix mankind's problems.
I think the balance between those 2 groups of PSU alums will change pretty steadily in future years. Right now is the highest that any pro-Paterno advocacy will be from now on. Each year there are new kids enrolling, not feeling tied to his "positive" legacy but ashamed of what he was a part of, and new students become alumni.
No, my argument is that it's out of the NCAA jurisdiction and the NCAA couldn't possibly punish them as thoroughly as the criminal justice system. It appears to be hard for some to understand that the NCAA isn't in the business of law enforcement. They are in the business of NCAA rule enforcement. They police their rules. Realistically, the NCAA is going to really have to work at getting involved here and be pretty liberal with some of their interpretations to their rules.
LOL, exactly! It's like no one read my post. I'm sure that right now some other coaches are thinking, "Well, they didn't get the sport shut down by the NCAA so I think we should protect a child molester". That argument is beyond stupid. Regardless of what punishments the NCAA hands down no one is going to think they should cover up such a heinous crime in the future.'IvanKaramazov said:
Somehow, I missed this whole exchage. I agree with you pitts. To me, there are two logical options:1. Punish those involved and move on.2. Punish everyone.Anything in between just doesn't make sense to me. You either go scorched earth or you go in surgically. There's no such thing as "half scorched earth and half surgical". Personally, if I were the board, I'd let the criminal justice system take it's course, pay for pain and suffering and issue self imposed sanctions that included a season or two of no football at PSU.Upset isn't the word I would choose, I don't even know if I would go with black and white to discribe my "punishment" towards this problem; it is more that I find Tim's POV compelling but his solutions manufactured to try to appease both sides. I always find myself gravitating to Tim's posts, and frequently commenting on them, but I do hold my tongue a lot because I believe he thinks I am trolling him. I, in general, disagree with the punishment of just the football program since I feel it was a school problem and believe that the punishment of just this program makes it sound like an isolated incident. If the people running the school let this program get so big that they lost control of it, then they committed a wrongdoing too. The Board of Trustees, and the school's heirarchy, failed at the job they were hired (or volunteered) to do; by punishing just the football program I feel it would allow future programs to let their sports programs do anything they want since it is isolated from the school. I do not think though that PSU should be punished in any sort of sense that would destroy the school and should be firing everyone, including the Board, instead. To get back to your post, I feel that this board gives you an opportunity to share your opinion but I find that a "nuanced" one lacks conviction and has frequently been an issue for me with Tim. Lack of conviction will not do, since we are here to fix mankind's problems.
See... you can be reasonable.
This has been my position all along. I just don't think the NCAA has to a part in of any of this. You either punish the people involved or the whole school. Stopping at the "football program" is silly. Nothing new here
Because no way that PSU shuts down the football program of their own accord.
I think they should play the games and donate all the money to RAINN.I would go along with this. I certainly don't think there should be a permanent end to the football program. But if they play their games like normal, and if the university rakes in the money, like normal, I think that will be an unjust result.You guys realize you're basically saying "society allowed football to become a rock for administrators to hide behind should they choose to do so" right? What boggles my mind is you're completely ignoring the fact it was still THEIR choice. That's where focus should be.Now I will say, I think it's in PSU's best interest to shut it down for this year (at least). I can't imagine the university being willing to put the kids and coaches in the position of having to deal with this, especially on the road. There's a part of me that thinks they might even want to think about changing the uniforms. I don't think the NCAA should have any say in this decision though.Exactly.The culture of football is king enabled these decisions to be made. You don't think this happens for a former econ professor, do you? That is the difference.The "programs" didn't make these decisions. Individuals did and used the programs to justify those decisions. There's a difference there.
How did that happen? Who enabled Paterno to dictate how a university president should react to allegations of criminal behavior. That should never be the decision of an athletic coach. That is where PSU, the institution, failed. Individuals broke the law, and they will be dealt with. The University allowed the football program to live by their own rules, and that should be addressed.
We'll see. I'm confident that the message would get muddled if the NCAA got involved. It would be yet anotherBecause no way that PSU shuts down the football program of their own accord.
situation of how the NCAA really has no idea what their role is in society and another example of them overstepping. It would mean a billion times more if the school did it on it's own and I think the school knows that.
Fair enough. I think nuanced is good because I think that's the way the world works. In prior threads several years back I made the point that it seemed to be political, where Black/White folks were Conservative and Gray folks were Liberal. Anyway, sorry to get off topic.Upset isn't the word I would choose, I don't even know if I would go with black and white to discribe my "punishment" towards this problem; it is more that I find Tim's POV compelling but his solutions manufactured to try to appease both sides. I always find myself gravitating to Tim's posts, and frequently commenting on them, but I do hold my tongue a lot because I believe he thinks I am trolling him. I, in general, disagree with the punishment of just the football program since I feel it was a school problem and believe that the punishment of just this program makes it sound like an isolated incident. If the people running the school let this program get so big that they lost control of it, then they committed a wrongdoing too. The Board of Trustees, and the school's heirarchy, failed at the job they were hired (or volunteered) to do; by punishing just the football program I feel it would allow future programs to let their sports programs do anything they want since it is isolated from the school. I do not think though that PSU should be punished in any sort of sense that would destroy the school and should be firing everyone, including the Board, instead. To get back to your post, I feel that this board gives you an opportunity to share your opinion but I find that a "nuanced" one lacks conviction and has frequently been an issue for me with Tim. Lack of conviction will not do, since we are here to fix mankind's problems.
Agree 100%.
The NCAA doesn't need to be able to punish them as thoroughly as the criminal justice system, because it's not replacing it. The criminal justice system is still on the table.
The NCAA can/and probably should punish PSU with loss of scholarships and loss of revenue, but they have nothing currently in their bylaws to impose the death penalty. I do think PSU should on their own, shut down the football program for a time.
What a great guy.
I think a part of it was that Paterno didn't want to believe or couldn't believe Sandusky would do it. In their world, Sandusky was a "swell guy"--not the sort who would hurt anyone. Why would all of these kids hang around with him if he was hurting them? I bet denial played a big part in Paterno's failures.
In this instance, it would just be "piling on" by the NCAA then. I see no benefit in that. The message to not harbor pedophiles is sent with the criminal justice system and the lawsuits.
This is total BS. They knew exactly who he was and what he was doing. Did you read the Freeh report? Get your head out of the sand.
Based on what grounds? I know the LOIC premise has been brought up, but I fail to see how that applies here. Every single LOIC case that's been brought has been brought because of NCAA rules being broken over and over at schools. The NCAA has no rules around pedophilia. As much as folks don't want to hear that, it's true. They don't have rules around murder, spousal abuse or any of that stuff. They leave that to the criminal justice system.
I could buy this the first time around, but I'm not sure how anyone could continue thinking that as it happened time and time again.
In this case, it's almost the opposite of LOIC in that the administrators knew what was happening, and did nothing. They kept a tight lid on everything in that isolated community. Now, one could argue that Paterno being the leader of this, the coach being the most powerful person is LOIC, but this cover-up shows this institution knew exactly what was happening and choose to keep it quiet.
Exactly, I could buy this for the 1998 incident, but then in 2001 when a member of your staff catches him in the act and tells you the 1998 story has to be looked at in a different light.
Why do you think Sandusky was removed from the staff and couldn't get a job after being one of the most successful DCs in the country?
Good point. Hadn't thought about it from that angle. Still begs the question what grounds can the NCAA use to pile on if they choose?
This is the NCAA we are discussing here. Public pressure is on them to do something and they will find something to base some sort of action on.
If they're smart they'll work with PSU behind the scenes on this one. I get the general public wants them to do "something", but I don't think they want to get involved. For whatever reason, I do believe they understand their bounds on this. I don't think they want to mess with their reputation any more than they have to. They are more beholden to the schools and conferences than they are the village mob on the outside looking in.Of course this may be wishful thinking on my part. I'm pretty sure it is.
Yes, and there's nothing in there that proves that Paterno wasn't in denial. Do you know what "in denial" means? It means that even in the face of overwhelming evidence a person cannot comprehend the truth of the matter because it is just too uncomfortable to accept. It happens.
