Jerry Sandusky accused of child molestation (2 Viewers)

[Chase Stuart]

Attorneys out there- if you are the parents of one of the molested children, whom could you justifiably sue in this situation? Can you sue the University, or Paterno? (I realize that technically you can sue anybody, but I'm talking about suing with reasonable expectations of some kind of award.)

Unless there's a statute to sue under -- and I have no idea if there is -- I think you're left with common law negligence.One of the elements of negligence is duty of care; it would be hard to think what duty of care Paterno would owe any of the victims (legally speaking). Same goes for the University. If I'm building you a house, I owe you a duty of care not to negligently build it. If I'm driving my car next to you, I owe you a duty of care to drive safely.But unless Paterno or University officials were putting those kids in rooms with Sandusky, I don't see a duty of care breach.

Oh, come on. Suppose you're a hungry lawyer at a big-time Philadelphia law firm that has just landed all 8 of these victims as clients. Are you really going to go to the senior partner with this? Not if you want to make partner for yourself, you won't. off the top of my head, I would present something more along the lines of Penn State having created an environment that protected personnel who were key players in its most valuable asset - it's lucrative football program. I would find a way to make this an institutional problem, not a Joe Paterno or Jerry Sandusky problem. But a problem that was allowed to exist because of the goals and the culture of the institution. I would then argue that substantial funding for PSU comes from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania... that, yes, technically it is "state-related", meaning independent control, rather than state control, but the money trail leads straight to the Commonwealth jackpot. perhpas file suit against the University, then... if a big enough suit is won, maybe they have to go to the Commonwealth to pay it... But I cannot really think of not at least taking a shot at the Commonwealth directly.... perhaps naming PSU and the Commonwealth as co-defendants, doing lots of research and creative thinking in order to make a decent argument for a jury to sort out.

I thought the question asked for a realistic interpretation of law. Obviously any lawyer can go about doing whatever they want. Doesn't mean a judge allows it.

 

[Sea Bass]

For those of you in a search and destroy mode please allow me to remind you of a litte case where a Univrsity and a legal system succumbed to public pressue and message board idiots too quickly in making a rush to judgement. Penn State officials and elected judges must take the time for due process to prevent another overreaction.

FROM WIKI;

In March 2006 Crystal Gail Mangum, an African American student at North Carolina Central University[1][2] who worked as a stripper,[3] dancer and escort,[4] falsely accused three white Duke University students, members of the Duke Blue Devils men's lacrosse team, of raping her at a party held at the house of two of the team's captains in Durham, North Carolina on March 13, 2006. Many people involved in, or commenting on, the case, including prosecutor Mike Nifong, called the alleged assault a hate crime or suggested it might be one.[5][6][7][8]

In response to the allegations Duke University suspended the lacrosse team for two games on March 28, 2006. On April 5, 2006, Duke lacrosse coach Mike Pressler was forced to resign under threat by athletics director Joe Alleva and Duke President Richard Brodhead canceled the remainder of the 2006 season.

On April 11, 2007, North Carolina Attorney General Roy Cooper dropped all charges and declared the three players innocent. Cooper stated that the charged players – Reade Seligmann, Collin Finnerty, and David Evans – were victims of a "tragic rush to accuse."[9] The initial prosecutor for the case, Durham County's District Attorney Mike Nifong, who was labeled a "rogue prosecutor" by Cooper, withdrew from the case in January 2007 after the North Carolina State Bar filed ethics charges against him. That June, Nifong was disbarred for "dishonesty, fraud, deceit and misrepresentation", making Nifong the first prosecutor in North Carolina history to lose his law license based on actions in a case. Nifong was found guilty of criminal contempt and served one day in jail.[10] Mangum never faced any charges for her false accusations as Cooper declined to prosecute her.[11]

 

[Disco Stu]

I think its impossible to believe that McQueary saw the rape and didn't tell Paterno the full extent. How could he not?

This is one of the two key points that caused me to change my thinking about this situation. Originally, as I posted here, I thought Paterno was being railroaded without evidence. Since he had always been someone I admired, I defended him.The other point, just as large in my mind, is the fact that though the school never notified the authorities about Sandusky, the man who accused him, McQueary, stayed with the program and was eventually promoted to assistant coach. This makes absolutely no sense. Either Paterno thinks Sandusky is guilty, in which case he covered up for him, or he thinks McQueary must be some kind of crazy liar, in which case why was he promoted? There can be logical explanation for this fact except that Paterno is guilty of a cover up.

These exact conclusions were already reached by someone else about 20 pages ago.

Impossible.

 

[The Future Champs]

Maybe more info kept coming to light. Who knows? What we do know is that there was info on his computer that he felt he needed to destroy. Maybe someone threatened his family if the information ever became public. All speculation.

or perhaps he was killed because he was prosecuting the biggest heroin bust in the history of pennsylvania?

Given his search for how to destroy a HD, it's much more likely that he committed suicide or is living on some island someplace under a different name.

Police think he was lured out to where he parked his car and he was murdered.

And that's why he searched for info on how to destroy his hard drive two weeks prior. Got it.

And how do you know he didn't destroy it for someone else, and then gave them the evidence to prove that it was destroyed, and then they destroyed him (which wasn't part of the deal)?

That's ######ed. Have you ever heard of copying files on a computer?

 

[Sammy3469]

For those of you in a search and destroy mode please allow me to remind you of a litte case where a Univrsity and a legal system succumbed to public pressue and message board idiots too quickly in making a rush to judgement. Penn State officials and elected judges must take the time for due process to prevent another overreaction. FROM WIKI;In March 2006 Crystal Gail Mangum, an African American student at North Carolina Central University[1][2] who worked as a stripper,[3] dancer and escort,[4] falsely accused three white Duke University students, members of the Duke Blue Devils men's lacrosse team, of raping her at a party held at the house of two of the team's captains in Durham, North Carolina on March 13, 2006. Many people involved in, or commenting on, the case, including prosecutor Mike Nifong, called the alleged assault a hate crime or suggested it might be one.[5][6][7][8]In response to the allegations Duke University suspended the lacrosse team for two games on March 28, 2006. On April 5, 2006, Duke lacrosse coach Mike Pressler was forced to resign under threat by athletics director Joe Alleva and Duke President Richard Brodhead canceled the remainder of the 2006 season.On April 11, 2007, North Carolina Attorney General Roy Cooper dropped all charges and declared the three players innocent. Cooper stated that the charged players – Reade Seligmann, Collin Finnerty, and David Evans – were victims of a "tragic rush to accuse."[9] The initial prosecutor for the case, Durham County's District Attorney Mike Nifong, who was labeled a "rogue prosecutor" by Cooper, withdrew from the case in January 2007 after the North Carolina State Bar filed ethics charges against him. That June, Nifong was disbarred for "dishonesty, fraud, deceit and misrepresentation", making Nifong the first prosecutor in North Carolina history to lose his law license based on actions in a case. Nifong was found guilty of criminal contempt and served one day in jail.[10] Mangum never faced any charges for her false accusations as Cooper declined to prosecute her.[11]

Big difference here is a bunch of people (including Paterno) have already testified under oath in front of the grand jury

 

[Walton Goggins]

Happy Valley will forever remind me of Neverland Ranch, two very bizarre, Disney Land like and secluded places that seem to relish in living in a fantasy place, away from real life.

 

[culdeus]

For those of you in a search and destroy mode please allow me to remind you of a litte case where a Univrsity and a legal system succumbed to public pressue and message board idiots too quickly in making a rush to judgement. Penn State officials and elected judges must take the time for due process to prevent another overreaction. FROM WIKI;In March 2006 Crystal Gail Mangum, an African American student at North Carolina Central University[1][2] who worked as a stripper,[3] dancer and escort,[4] falsely accused three white Duke University students, members of the Duke Blue Devils men's lacrosse team, of raping her at a party held at the house of two of the team's captains in Durham, North Carolina on March 13, 2006. Many people involved in, or commenting on, the case, including prosecutor Mike Nifong, called the alleged assault a hate crime or suggested it might be one.[5][6][7][8]In response to the allegations Duke University suspended the lacrosse team for two games on March 28, 2006. On April 5, 2006, Duke lacrosse coach Mike Pressler was forced to resign under threat by athletics director Joe Alleva and Duke President Richard Brodhead canceled the remainder of the 2006 season.On April 11, 2007, North Carolina Attorney General Roy Cooper dropped all charges and declared the three players innocent. Cooper stated that the charged players – Reade Seligmann, Collin Finnerty, and David Evans – were victims of a "tragic rush to accuse."[9] The initial prosecutor for the case, Durham County's District Attorney Mike Nifong, who was labeled a "rogue prosecutor" by Cooper, withdrew from the case in January 2007 after the North Carolina State Bar filed ethics charges against him. That June, Nifong was disbarred for "dishonesty, fraud, deceit and misrepresentation", making Nifong the first prosecutor in North Carolina history to lose his law license based on actions in a case. Nifong was found guilty of criminal contempt and served one day in jail.[10] Mangum never faced any charges for her false accusations as Cooper declined to prosecute her.[11]

really?

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

This scandal is a coverup of something else terible, IMO.

Let's walk through this logically.

 

[Joseph]

For those of you in a search and destroy mode please allow me to remind you of a litte case where a Univrsity and a legal system succumbed to public pressue and message board idiots too quickly in making a rush to judgement. Penn State officials and elected judges must take the time for due process to prevent another overreaction. FROM WIKI;In March 2006 Crystal Gail Mangum, an African American student at North Carolina Central University[1][2] who worked as a stripper,[3] dancer and escort,[4] falsely accused three white Duke University students, members of the Duke Blue Devils men's lacrosse team, of raping her at a party held at the house of two of the team's captains in Durham, North Carolina on March 13, 2006. Many people involved in, or commenting on, the case, including prosecutor Mike Nifong, called the alleged assault a hate crime or suggested it might be one.[5][6][7][8]In response to the allegations Duke University suspended the lacrosse team for two games on March 28, 2006. On April 5, 2006, Duke lacrosse coach Mike Pressler was forced to resign under threat by athletics director Joe Alleva and Duke President Richard Brodhead canceled the remainder of the 2006 season.On April 11, 2007, North Carolina Attorney General Roy Cooper dropped all charges and declared the three players innocent. Cooper stated that the charged players – Reade Seligmann, Collin Finnerty, and David Evans – were victims of a "tragic rush to accuse."[9] The initial prosecutor for the case, Durham County's District Attorney Mike Nifong, who was labeled a "rogue prosecutor" by Cooper, withdrew from the case in January 2007 after the North Carolina State Bar filed ethics charges against him. That June, Nifong was disbarred for "dishonesty, fraud, deceit and misrepresentation", making Nifong the first prosecutor in North Carolina history to lose his law license based on actions in a case. Nifong was found guilty of criminal contempt and served one day in jail.[10] Mangum never faced any charges for her false accusations as Cooper declined to prosecute her.[11]

Really? There's a grand jury report that basically says that Paterno knew about the 2002 shower rape and did nothing but tell the AD about it.

 

[BassNBrew]

What's sick is that PSU picked generating (50?) million a year to cover this up over allowing children to be raped. I am sure they were too scared to call the cops on him thinking that this would tarnish their university and in effect generating $$$. I really hope civil action destroys this school. No way in hell just a few people knew about this. People talk, people whisper and to pick $ over children getting raped I can't think of a worse enough punishment.

Yes, because the 45K current students and the million or so alumni deserve the school to be destroyed because of six or seven people.

Why draw the line there? I'm taking my kids out of grade school and home educating them because Joe Pa has tarnished the very idea of "schools".

I'm throwing away every blue and/or white item in my house.

Including your kid? Wouldn't give you much room to preach on this issue.

 

[The Future Champs]

For those of you in a search and destroy mode please allow me to remind you of a litte case where a Univrsity and a legal system succumbed to public pressue and message board idiots too quickly in making a rush to judgement. Penn State officials and elected judges must take the time for due process to prevent another overreaction. FROM WIKI;In March 2006 Crystal Gail Mangum, an African American student at North Carolina Central University[1][2] who worked as a stripper,[3] dancer and escort,[4] falsely accused three white Duke University students, members of the Duke Blue Devils men's lacrosse team, of raping her at a party held at the house of two of the team's captains in Durham, North Carolina on March 13, 2006. Many people involved in, or commenting on, the case, including prosecutor Mike Nifong, called the alleged assault a hate crime or suggested it might be one.[5][6][7][8]In response to the allegations Duke University suspended the lacrosse team for two games on March 28, 2006. On April 5, 2006, Duke lacrosse coach Mike Pressler was forced to resign under threat by athletics director Joe Alleva and Duke President Richard Brodhead canceled the remainder of the 2006 season.On April 11, 2007, North Carolina Attorney General Roy Cooper dropped all charges and declared the three players innocent. Cooper stated that the charged players – Reade Seligmann, Collin Finnerty, and David Evans – were victims of a "tragic rush to accuse."[9] The initial prosecutor for the case, Durham County's District Attorney Mike Nifong, who was labeled a "rogue prosecutor" by Cooper, withdrew from the case in January 2007 after the North Carolina State Bar filed ethics charges against him. That June, Nifong was disbarred for "dishonesty, fraud, deceit and misrepresentation", making Nifong the first prosecutor in North Carolina history to lose his law license based on actions in a case. Nifong was found guilty of criminal contempt and served one day in jail.[10] Mangum never faced any charges for her false accusations as Cooper declined to prosecute her.[11]

Some serious differences between the two- the Duke case involved a single accuser and a single incident, while this is based on multiple accusers and eye-witnesses over a long period of time.

 

[Leviathan]

Based on the coward McQueary calling his dad asking what he should do, I think he did something similar with Paterno. He told him what he saw, but in more general terms. He asked Joe what he should do. Joe should have said to call the police. Instead, Joe said he would call the AD and the school would take it from there etc.

I'm not going to call McQueary a coward for running away from Sandusky. He panicked in the middle of a traumatic moment. I can't justify it but I can understand it.However, he absolutely IS a coward for staying silent for 7+ years afterwards -- even as he saw Sandusky coming and going on campus, using the facilities, bringing little kids to bowl games, etc. He was the ONLY person who really knew what happened in that shower, and he did as close to nothing about it as he possibly could.

He's a coward on both counts. Who runs away and does nothing to help a 10 year old boy from being raped? He should have thrown a towel around that kid and gone straight to the authorities. Kicking Sandusky in the nuts would have been nice, but not neccessary unless he tried to stop him.

 

[Fat Nick]

just waiting for it to come out that mccreary got the wr coaching job for keeping this quiet all this time.

I really dont think this is the case. He was born and raised in State College PA. He was the star QB at State College High. He was essentially an assistant coach for all 5 years he was on the sidelines, always had the headphones on. Even beck then they talked about his coaching future. He has been Joe's eyes and ears for the past 10 years. He has been running the sidelines for the past 3-4 years. Maybe all this happened because of the "dirt" he had, but I certainly dont think its a given.

Really? Because he lived across the street from me for years in Durham NC.

Must be another big redhead...either that or he had a summer place.

 

[simey]

Maybe more info kept coming to light. Who knows? What we do know is that there was info on his computer that he felt he needed to destroy. Maybe someone threatened his family if the information ever became public. All speculation.

or perhaps he was killed because he was prosecuting the biggest heroin bust in the history of pennsylvania?

Given his search for how to destroy a HD, it's much more likely that he committed suicide or is living on some island someplace under a different name.

Police think he was lured out to where he parked his car and he was murdered.

And that's why he searched for info on how to destroy his hard drive two weeks prior. Got it.

And how do you know he didn't destroy it for someone else, and then gave them the evidence to prove that it was destroyed, and then they destroyed him (which wasn't part of the deal)?

That's ######ed. Have you ever heard of copying files on a computer?

I'm just telling you what police believe. There was someone else there too where his car was found. He had ashes in his car from cigarettes, it smelled like smoke, they found butts with someone elses DNA on it, and Gricar didn't smoke. They believe he got into a car with this person and was killed.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I've been hearing some criticism of the Penn State students on the radio this morning, the ones who went to Paterno's house last night and shouted their loyalty. I don't think this group should be criticized. This is human nature. Someone whom they regard as "one of their own" is under attack nationally, and the common reaction is to rally around him. Bob Knight received the same treatment. Given all of the facts and time to reflect, I'm betting that many if not most of these students will come to regret the fact that they were such vocal supporters of Paterno once this story broke. But let's not blame them for reacting emotionally in the initial stages.

Couldn't disagree more.People get to act however they want and they get a free pass because they're "emotional"? It's ok somehow as long as many of them regret it later?When you hear: "Tough life, when people do certain things to you. Anyway, you've been great. Everything's great, all right." and the very first response is to shout "We love you Joe". I don't give that a free pass. I'm sorry.I think it's a symptom of the bigger picture which looks to me why this was allowed to go on - the power wielded by the football program here allowed it to be above the law. Does anyone for a minute think this kind of thing would have been allowed to continue the same way if Sandusky was a non famous elementary school teacher with no political clout and his boss wasn't a legendary football coach? I don't.The blind loyalty ignoring reality is scary.And the question about turning your back on the guy is fair. But there is a difference between supporting someone you love and going to party on their front yard and yell for their hero. I can see that the decision to turn your friend into the police would be excruciating. That had to be difficult for Paterno. But if he knew about it, allowing it go on is worse in my opinion.J

Millions of people still support Michael Jackson.

You mean the same kid who accused Michael Jackson of rape accused Paterno.Interestingly the mother who accused Michael Jackson of pedophilia also accused Jay Leno of the same thing.

 

[CrossEyed]

What's sick is that PSU picked generating (50?) million a year to cover this up over allowing children to be raped. I am sure they were too scared to call the cops on him thinking that this would tarnish their university and in effect generating $$$. I really hope civil action destroys this school. No way in hell just a few people knew about this. People talk, people whisper and to pick $ over children getting raped I can't think of a worse enough punishment.

Yes, because the 45K current students and the million or so alumni deserve the school to be destroyed because of six or seven people.

Why draw the line there? I'm taking my kids out of grade school and home educating them because Joe Pa has tarnished the very idea of "schools".

I'm throwing away every blue and/or white item in my house.

Including your kid? Wouldn't give you much room to preach on this issue.

He's not albino, so technically not white.

 

[Joe Summer]

For those of you in a search and destroy mode please allow me to remind you of a litte case where a Univrsity and a legal system succumbed to public pressue and message board idiots too quickly in making a rush to judgement. Penn State officials and elected judges must take the time for due process to prevent another overreaction.

I don't see how the two situations are remotely comparable. The Duke players didn't admit to a grand jury that a rape took place.

 

[Moonlight]

Attorneys out there- if you are the parents of one of the molested children, whom could you justifiably sue in this situation? Can you sue the University, or Paterno? (I realize that technically you can sue anybody, but I'm talking about suing with reasonable expectations of some kind of award.)

Unless there's a statute to sue under -- and I have no idea if there is -- I think you're left with common law negligence.One of the elements of negligence is duty of care; it would be hard to think what duty of care Paterno would owe any of the victims (legally speaking). Same goes for the University. If I'm building you a house, I owe you a duty of care not to negligently build it. If I'm driving my car next to you, I owe you a duty of care to drive safely.But unless Paterno or University officials were putting those kids in rooms with Sandusky, I don't see a duty of care breach.

Oh, come on. Suppose you're a hungry lawyer at a big-time Philadelphia law firm that has just landed all 8 of these victims as clients. Are you really going to go to the senior partner with this? Not if you want to make partner for yourself, you won't. off the top of my head, I would present something more along the lines of Penn State having created an environment that protected personnel who were key players in its most valuable asset - it's lucrative football program. I would find a way to make this an institutional problem, not a Joe Paterno or Jerry Sandusky problem. But a problem that was allowed to exist because of the goals and the culture of the institution. I would then argue that substantial funding for PSU comes from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania... that, yes, technically it is "state-related", meaning independent control, rather than state control, but the money trail leads straight to the Commonwealth jackpot. perhpas file suit against the University, then... if a big enough suit is won, maybe they have to go to the Commonwealth to pay it... But I cannot really think of not at least taking a shot at the Commonwealth directly.... perhaps naming PSU and the Commonwealth as co-defendants, doing lots of research and creative thinking in order to make a decent argument for a jury to sort out.

I thought the question asked for a realistic interpretation of law. Obviously any lawyer can go about doing whatever they want. Doesn't mean a judge allows it.

Civil suits are permitted against those who fail to report as required by law if there continues to be abuse of the victim afterwards. I am less clear if liability extends to others victims for abuse occurring after the event that should have been reported.

 

[AmosMoses]

For those of you in a search and destroy mode please allow me to remind you of a litte case where a Univrsity and a legal system succumbed to public pressue and message board idiots too quickly in making a rush to judgement. Penn State officials and elected judges must take the time for due process to prevent another overreaction. FROM WIKI;In March 2006 Crystal Gail Mangum, an African American student at North Carolina Central University[1][2] who worked as a stripper,[3] dancer and escort,[4] falsely accused three white Duke University students, members of the Duke Blue Devils men's lacrosse team, of raping her at a party held at the house of two of the team's captains in Durham, North Carolina on March 13, 2006. Many people involved in, or commenting on, the case, including prosecutor Mike Nifong, called the alleged assault a hate crime or suggested it might be one.[5][6][7][8]In response to the allegations Duke University suspended the lacrosse team for two games on March 28, 2006. On April 5, 2006, Duke lacrosse coach Mike Pressler was forced to resign under threat by athletics director Joe Alleva and Duke President Richard Brodhead canceled the remainder of the 2006 season.On April 11, 2007, North Carolina Attorney General Roy Cooper dropped all charges and declared the three players innocent. Cooper stated that the charged players – Reade Seligmann, Collin Finnerty, and David Evans – were victims of a "tragic rush to accuse."[9] The initial prosecutor for the case, Durham County's District Attorney Mike Nifong, who was labeled a "rogue prosecutor" by Cooper, withdrew from the case in January 2007 after the North Carolina State Bar filed ethics charges against him. That June, Nifong was disbarred for "dishonesty, fraud, deceit and misrepresentation", making Nifong the first prosecutor in North Carolina history to lose his law license based on actions in a case. Nifong was found guilty of criminal contempt and served one day in jail.[10] Mangum never faced any charges for her false accusations as Cooper declined to prosecute her.[11]

Wow.

 

[Walton Goggins]

For those of you in a search and destroy mode please allow me to remind you of a litte case where a Univrsity and a legal system succumbed to public pressue and message board idiots too quickly in making a rush to judgement. Penn State officials and elected judges must take the time for due process to prevent another overreaction. FROM WIKI;In March 2006 Crystal Gail Mangum, an African American student at North Carolina Central University[1][2] who worked as a stripper,[3] dancer and escort,[4] falsely accused three white Duke University students, members of the Duke Blue Devils men's lacrosse team, of raping her at a party held at the house of two of the team's captains in Durham, North Carolina on March 13, 2006. Many people involved in, or commenting on, the case, including prosecutor Mike Nifong, called the alleged assault a hate crime or suggested it might be one.[5][6][7][8]In response to the allegations Duke University suspended the lacrosse team for two games on March 28, 2006. On April 5, 2006, Duke lacrosse coach Mike Pressler was forced to resign under threat by athletics director Joe Alleva and Duke President Richard Brodhead canceled the remainder of the 2006 season.On April 11, 2007, North Carolina Attorney General Roy Cooper dropped all charges and declared the three players innocent. Cooper stated that the charged players – Reade Seligmann, Collin Finnerty, and David Evans – were victims of a "tragic rush to accuse."[9] The initial prosecutor for the case, Durham County's District Attorney Mike Nifong, who was labeled a "rogue prosecutor" by Cooper, withdrew from the case in January 2007 after the North Carolina State Bar filed ethics charges against him. That June, Nifong was disbarred for "dishonesty, fraud, deceit and misrepresentation", making Nifong the first prosecutor in North Carolina history to lose his law license based on actions in a case. Nifong was found guilty of criminal contempt and served one day in jail.[10] Mangum never faced any charges for her false accusations as Cooper declined to prosecute her.[11]

Let me remind you that people admitted in a grand jury on what went on, don't remember Duke players doing the same.

 

[Walton Goggins]

JoePa clearly isn't an honorable man, he can't even step down for the betterment of PSU instead gives a statement on when he'll retire. What a scumbag this guy is.

 

[B-Deep]

THE NAZIS!!!!!!

I told ya it would come to me

 

[The Future Champs]

Maybe more info kept coming to light. Who knows? What we do know is that there was info on his computer that he felt he needed to destroy. Maybe someone threatened his family if the information ever became public. All speculation.

or perhaps he was killed because he was prosecuting the biggest heroin bust in the history of pennsylvania?

Given his search for how to destroy a HD, it's much more likely that he committed suicide or is living on some island someplace under a different name.

Police think he was lured out to where he parked his car and he was murdered.

And that's why he searched for info on how to destroy his hard drive two weeks prior. Got it.

And how do you know he didn't destroy it for someone else, and then gave them the evidence to prove that it was destroyed, and then they destroyed him (which wasn't part of the deal)?

That's ######ed. Have you ever heard of copying files on a computer?

I'm just telling you what police believe. There was someone else there too where his car was found. He had ashes in his car from cigarettes, it smelled like smoke, they found butts with someone elses DNA on it, and Gricar didn't smoke. They believe he got into a car with this person and was killed.

Hmmm, now this is interesting, but there's still more problems. I don't smoke, and I have never let anyone smoke in my car. I think most non-smokers are similar to me in this respect. Regardless, it's a long stretch to wrap this back to the Sandusky case seven years prior. I don't believe that he would sit on the evidence for seven years, only to meet with someone who killed him to cover up the crimes. If there was any truth to this, and Sandusky (or Paterno, or whoever the conspiracy theory freaks want to stick in this role) knew he'd been sitting on evidence for seven years, and Gricar showed up for the meeting with a laptop, would they believe that all the evidence was on that laptop? There's no way that anyone would carry a single copy of important evidence around for seven years on the same laptop, which would mean that there would have to be other copies someplace else.

 

[Johnnymac]

Paterno retiring at the end of the season...sorry Joe, not good enough!!

 

[Mr. Pickles]

This scandal is a coverup of something else terible, IMO.

Let's walk through this logically.

See also: Stuart, Chase, "Peacocking: A Logical Approach," 362 pages, Random House: New York (2008).

 

[Socrates11]

JoePa clearly isn't an honorable man, he can't even step down for the betterment of PSU instead gives a statement on when he'll retire. What a scumbag this guy is.

I found this sentence in his "retirement" statement laughable: "At this moment the Board of Trustees should not spend a single minute discussing my status."Of course you don't want them to spend a single minute discussing your status Joe, because you know if they did you'd soon be receiving a phone call asking you to clean out your office.

 

[General Malaise]

What did Fatguy say that got him teh ban?

 

[Wadsworth]

just waiting for it to come out that mccreary got the wr coaching job for keeping this quiet all this time.

I really dont think this is the case. He was born and raised in State College PA. He was the star QB at State College High. He was essentially an assistant coach for all 5 years he was on the sidelines, always had the headphones on. Even beck then they talked about his coaching future. He has been Joe's eyes and ears for the past 10 years. He has been running the sidelines for the past 3-4 years. Maybe all this happened because of the "dirt" he had, but I certainly dont think its a given.

Really? Because he lived across the street from me for years in Durham NC.

Must be another big redhead...either that or he had a summer place.

Mike's father was at Duke for several years and the whole family lived in Durham. It's not a big deal, but born and raised in Happy Valley isn't total accurate.

 

[B-Deep]

What did Fatguy say that got him teh ban?

was it in this thread?odd

 

[Honus]

I've been hearing some criticism of the Penn State students on the radio this morning, the ones who went to Paterno's house last night and shouted their loyalty. I don't think this group should be criticized. This is human nature. Someone whom they regard as "one of their own" is under attack nationally, and the common reaction is to rally around him. Bob Knight received the same treatment. Given all of the facts and time to reflect, I'm betting that many if not most of these students will come to regret the fact that they were such vocal supporters of Paterno once this story broke. But let's not blame them for reacting emotionally in the initial stages.

Couldn't disagree more.People get to act however they want and they get a free pass because they're "emotional"? It's ok somehow as long as many of them regret it later?When you hear: "Tough life, when people do certain things to you. Anyway, you've been great. Everything's great, all right." and the very first response is to shout "We love you Joe". I don't give that a free pass. I'm sorry.I think it's a symptom of the bigger picture which looks to me why this was allowed to go on - the power wielded by the football program here allowed it to be above the law. Does anyone for a minute think this kind of thing would have been allowed to continue the same way if Sandusky was a non famous elementary school teacher with no political clout and his boss wasn't a legendary football coach? I don't.The blind loyalty ignoring reality is scary.And the question about turning your back on the guy is fair. But there is a difference between supporting someone you love and going to party on their front yard and yell for their hero. I can see that the decision to turn your friend into the police would be excruciating. That had to be difficult for Paterno. But if he knew about it, allowing it go on is worse in my opinion.J

Joe, forgive me if I am biting off more than I can chew here, I haven't weighed in on this topic yet but this post raises a question for me. Could you see a scandal / coverup of this magnitude happening at other instututions given the same circumstances or is it so unfathomable that it must only be possible at PSU?I attended UT from '95 - '99. Now Chavis or Cutcliffe weren't necessarily as well known or highly regarded as Sandusky, so naturally the implications of protecting the individual may not be the same, but I do believe that UT was a perfect example of an athletic department operating as if it were above the law. It may not be the case so much nowadays, perhaps the culture has changed since they aren't winning as much lately, but I heard numerous stories about AD staff, even as high up as Fulmer, showing up at Gibbs Hall to "smooth over" incidents with players that should likely have been left to residence hall staff. Now that's little stuff I'm talking about there - fights, petty theft, etc. And I'd not be surprised to hear that burying this sort of thing whenever possible is the norm in big-time college athletics. Clearly, what has happened at Penn State is bigger, much bigger. So, is the culture there so unique that any other program would surely have handled it better? In short, could this have ever been possible at an SEC school like Tennessee? How about Notre Dame? How about Miami?

 

[Gianni Verscotchie]

I heard that Sandusky wrote a book.

 

[Monsieur Meursault]

I've been hearing some criticism of the Penn State students on the radio this morning, the ones who went to Paterno's house last night and shouted their loyalty. I don't think this group should be criticized. This is human nature. Someone whom they regard as "one of their own" is under attack nationally, and the common reaction is to rally around him. Bob Knight received the same treatment. Given all of the facts and time to reflect, I'm betting that many if not most of these students will come to regret the fact that they were such vocal supporters of Paterno once this story broke. But let's not blame them for reacting emotionally in the initial stages.

Couldn't disagree more.People get to act however they want and they get a free pass because they're "emotional"? It's ok somehow as long as many of them regret it later?When you hear: "Tough life, when people do certain things to you. Anyway, you've been great. Everything's great, all right." and the very first response is to shout "We love you Joe". I don't give that a free pass. I'm sorry.I think it's a symptom of the bigger picture which looks to me why this was allowed to go on - the power wielded by the football program here allowed it to be above the law. Does anyone for a minute think this kind of thing would have been allowed to continue the same way if Sandusky was a non famous elementary school teacher with no political clout and his boss wasn't a legendary football coach? I don't.The blind loyalty ignoring reality is scary.And the question about turning your back on the guy is fair. But there is a difference between supporting someone you love and going to party on their front yard and yell for their hero. I can see that the decision to turn your friend into the police would be excruciating. That had to be difficult for Paterno. But if he knew about it, allowing it go on is worse in my opinion.J

Millions of people still support Michael Jackson.

(I can't believe I'm about to say this). You cannot compare Joe Paterno to Michael Jackson. If anyone is Michael Jackson, its Jerry Sandusky.(Now my ####### head hurts).

I'm not comparing the two, rather, commenting on the "blind loyalty" aspect.

 

[Joe Summer]

A couple more tidbits that might not have been mentioned yet:

May 2007: Sandusky was invited to make a commencement speech at PSU graduation. The theme of his speech was "protecting children".

2007: Sandusky was allowed to bring an 11-year-old boy to PSU football practice

Hmmm....I thought Sandusky was banned from bringing boys on campus??

 

[Zegras11]

Penn State alumnus and football season ticket holder here.Like many others, I've been working through a series of emotions and reactions this week ranging from disbelief to disappointmenent to anger to profound sadness.I've mostly watched rather than contributed to this thread over the past few days, but after watching what I consider to be repeated "piling on" I just wanted to add my perspective as a potential counterbalance to what appears to be a "lynch mob" mentality.As a parent, my heart breaks for the victims (known and unknown) of the monster that is Jerry Sandusky. I wish to god that Joe (or Mike or Mike's dad or Tim or Gary or Graham or the janitor or the janitor's boss or the people at Second Mile) would have done more anywhere along the way to stop this. I'd like to think that, in any of their positions, I might have made a different (and better) choice.As an alumnus, it is devastating to learn that our leaders and role models acted so negligently. It is equally difficult to watch the university I hold so dearly and think so highly of shaken to its' foundation like this. To see the nightly news emanating from Happy Valley under such dark circumstances is surreal.Having said all that (and in no way attempting to defend the inexcusable inaction of the individuals mentioned above), I am also saddened to see the venom and "black-and-white" rhetoric being bandied about by the self-proclaimed moral police, the torch-and-pitchfork crowd, and the "holier-than-thou" bunch. Note: I fully realize that child abuse IS black-and-white. People (and their actions and motivations and thought process) aren't.Joe Paterno has done an awful lot of good in his life, for Penn State and for the young men who passed through his football program and who he helped mentor and instill life values in. Look at how hard this has been and how this has affected people like Matt Millen, Todd Blackledge, Lavar Arrington, etc.Joe has also done (intentionally or unintentionally) some unimaginable harm in whatever role he had in this (more by actions not taken than taken, based on the facts I've seen so far).To see him being seemingly vilified as evil incarnate is difficult. I fully get the emotion of this situation and the need (and call) for justice and consequences.I think his resignation is appropriate (and overdue). I have mixed feelings about the game Saturday and whether he should or should not be on the sideline and whether I want him to be there or not.Others will surely disagree with me, but I'm not sure he (or anyone other than Sandusky) deserves this circus. The way many are treating Joe does NOTHING to help anyone or begin the healing process. Now that he is stepping aside, the pain and questions and problems will long endure. Where do we turn next?

The healing process can start soon if Joe does not take the field ever again. How can it ever start when the victims will be reminded every Saturday for the next month?

 

[General Malaise]

What did Fatguy say that got him teh ban?

was it in this thread?odd

Asking Fatguy to restrain himself in this thread is like the episode of The Office where Michael Scott had to give up saying "That's what she said"....he just couldn't hold back.

 

[comfortably numb]

What did Fatguy say that got him teh ban?

was it in this thread?odd

Is there a newsletter on bans?How do you know who gets a TO?

 

[Parrothead]

This keeps getting worse..

truth is stranger than fiction

this thread needed some levity..

 

[Socrates11]

A couple more tidbits that might not have been mentioned yet:

May 2007: Sandusky was invited to make a commencement speech at PSU graduation. The theme of his speech was "protecting children".

2007: Sandusky was allowed to bring an 11-year-old boy to PSU football practice

Hmmm....I thought Sandusky was banned from bringing boys on campus??

 

[bagger]

This keeps getting worse..

truth is stranger than fiction

this thread needed some levity..

given the title of hisbook i was half expecting his flavor to be raspberry rape.

 

[Mr. Pickles]

I heard that Sandusky wrote a book.

Yes. It was called "Why Penn State is the Best Place to Work for Child Rapists" with a working title of "Touched" by its glib publisher.

 

[ClownCausedChaos]

This keeps getting worse..

truth is stranger than fiction

this thread needed some levity..

What's so strange about that?

 

[Mr. Know-It-All]

well, this will certainly help an already volitile situation

Idiots

The church says the game takes place between "two doomed states"What did Nebraska ever do to piss off Westboro?

Lady Gaga recently filmed the video for You and I about 4 miles from where I live. Maybe our allowing her within state borders has sealed our fate.

 

[soothsayer]

Second Mile was an organization supposedly founded to serve Foster children (if memory serves). According to this article, Sandusky (the boy-rapist) has six adopted children. That fact makes me want to throw up as the implications (without any allegations to date of course) are horrific. Ugh.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7205085/growing-penn-state

 

[Parrothead]

This keeps getting worse..

truth is stranger than fiction

this thread needed some levity..

What's so strange about that?

bananasnuts

a swirl?

 

[Gianni Verscotchie]

This keeps getting worse..

truth is stranger than fiction

this thread needed some levity..

COME ON!!Prior to the flavor's removal from the creamery website, The Big Lead got a screen grab of the ingredients. Sandusky Blitz was described as a "banana-flavored ice cream with chocolate-covered peanuts and caramel swirl."

 

[ClownCausedChaos]

This keeps getting worse..

truth is stranger than fiction

this thread needed some levity..

What's so strange about that?

bananasnuts

a swirl?

I did not read the whole article to see what the ingredients were. But I did have a bowl of Peachy Paterno last night.

 

[Limp Ditka]

This keeps getting worse..

truth is stranger than fiction

this thread needed some levity..

What's so strange about that?

bananasnuts

a swirl?

Alias probably taught him that move.

 

[beer 30]

A couple more tidbits that might not have been mentioned yet:

May 2007: Sandusky was invited to make a commencement speech at PSU graduation. The theme of his speech was "protecting children".

2007: Sandusky was allowed to bring an 11-year-old boy to PSU football practice

Hmmm....I thought Sandusky was banned from bringing boys on campus??

He was but under oath the AD said it was largely unenforceable Hard to see something when you have your back turned.

Spanier should fire everyone still on staff that was involved and then resign.

 

[secondplaceisfirstloser]

I think this is very close to the truth. A broader cover-up best explains the decision not to report what McQueary witnessed in 2002. However, I don't think Sandusky had anything on Joe or the program. I think PSU helped sweep the 1998 incident under the rug. Remember, Sandusky was still a PSU coach at that time. It would have been very embarrassing to the program had the allegations come to light. Additionally, the allegations while bizarre and inappropriate,are not as serious as the current charges. Sandusky, allegedly took a shower with a kid. So he tells everyone this the first time he has ever done anything like this and that it will never happen again. PSU intervenes on his behalf, partly out of self-preservation, partly out of loyalty to Sandusky. Maybe PSU tells the local authorities they will ensure that Sandusky gets counseling. Everyone involved convinces himself that it was an isolated incident and that it is everyone's best interest to make the problem go away. Sandusky quietly retires.

Now fast forward to 2002. More serious allegations come to light. Everyone that was involved in the 1998 cover-up is still at PSU. They meet and decide that if they report Sandusky for the recent incident people will start digging around the 1998 incident and the lid will be blown of their cover-up. They decide to go all in on the cover-up and don't report what McQueary saw.

Of course this is all speculation. It does present a way to make some sense of the 2002 decision not to report Sandusky. That decision is so bizarre and unfathomable, it begs for a bizarre explanation. Its so obvious that you contact the authorities that there must have been something going on behind the scene. There is simply no way these high level administrators made such a poor decision without having some sort of compelling motivation.

i'13778627']

This scandal is a coverup of something else terible, IMO.

Let's walk through this logically.

McQueary -- a former star QB and now grad assistant -- sees an old retired coach prison raping a child. #1 -- HTF do you not stop him? You want to tell me that a former finalist for the Unitas award can't stop a 58-year-old man who's naked with a boy in the shower? He's 30 years younger than him and in much better shape.

But okay, let's think. McQueary sees this, and is sicked/shocked/disgusted. He freezes. He runs, cowardly, but he runs. That happens. Some people flee instead of fighting, I get that.

So he meets with Paterno the next day. How do you think this goes down? Take a second and picture them sitting in Paterno's living room.

MM: Um, Joe. This was really bad. I, uh,... I, uh, saw coach Sandusky. With a boy. In the shower.

JP: [stunned silence.]

MM: Yeah. It was, uh, not good.

JP: When was this?

MM: Last night. Late at night, I went back to the locker room and found them there.

JP: So he was in the shower Saturday night with a young boy when he thought everyone had gone home?

MM: Yes. It was, uh, really bad. I don't even know if I can say it out loud.

JP: Oh my goodness. I don't think I even want to hear this. We need to meet with the AD and Curley and maybe Spanier as soon as possible.

MM: Okay.

JP: This is bad.

MM: Yes.

Now they all meet, and McQueary tells the story. The administration asks him for every detail, and he supplies it to them.

Curley and the AD say "Okay, this is horrible. But stop for a second. If we go to the police, they're going to ask us what evidence do we have. Mike, do you have any evidence?"

MM: No. I just, ya know, saw it. It happened, trust me. But no, I have no evidence.

AD: Okay, let's think this through.

From here, I see three scenarios.

The normal person reaction

Okay, this is bad. But let's go to the police. I am sure there was surveillance video of him entering the building, presumably with the kid. Then at least we can identify him. Then it would be 2 people's word against 1. Plus, maybe once the police start questioning Sandusky, he admits to it?

I mean, I don't know. This is ugly, and could become a circus. But obviously we need to do something. Let's tell the police, and hope we can convict this guy. Once the police are involved, we can find out a lot more. If nothing else, it ruins his reputation and prevents him from ever doing this again.

The cover-up but that's it response

Okay, this is bad. But here's the problem. We have almost no evidence. This is going to look terrible on the school. We don't even know who the kid is. Jerry is a sicko, but we all used to like him. We don't want to see him being remembered like this. Here's what we do: We go to him, tell him what happened, and say he's got to go to the other side of the country. Jerry, we know what happened, we are disgusted by it, we hope you get help, but please GTFO of State College. Immediately. You lose access to everything, immediately. I don't care about your house. Hire someone to sell it for you. You have any problem with this, we go to the police and handle it that way.

What actually happened

Now WHY would that not happen? After Paterno and the administration knew about it, how could they not kick Sandusky out immediately? Why in the world would they not tell him -- at a BARE MINIMUM -- get the F out of State College or we go to the cops. We caught you, you have no leverage, you're done. Leave here and never, ever come back, and this is us being NICE to you.

We are sickened by you, and maybe we're being slimy, but we don't want to bring down the school, the program, or even you. Just go far away.

There's only one reason that didn't happen. Sandusky had something on someone. If he had something on JoePa personally, I think the school says F off. He must have had something on the school.

Realistically, he is most likely to have what? Something where he has access, the football program. So he's got something on the football program. And Sandusky probably documented all of this, knowing that he could use it one day as leverage. If you're a sick child-raping monster and are worried that one day you'll be caught by X and Y, as a side-hobby, you're going to do everything you can to get something on X and Y to prevent you from going to jail.

I suspect Sandusky probably kept notes on players being paid or something of that ilk for years. Maybe it was worse -- maybe a player raped or murdered someone, and Sandusky and co. helped sweep it under the rug: but not before Sandusky kept evidence of it. He knew he would need something if he ever got caught.

Now the administration is in a bind. If they go nuclear on Sandusky, he goes to the press/police/ncaa with whatever he has. And what he has is bad. So they threaten him to leave, and he plays hardball. He says F you to Paterno and Spanier and Curley. He says I've got X on you, I'm not leaving. They reach a middle ground, where he stays far in the background but is allowed to stay on campus.

And then all of this breaks.

Is this a conspiracy theory? Of course. But the most likely explanation is the simplest.

Why does the school -- knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was prison raping children -- allow Sandusky to stay on campus, be listed in the phone directory as a member of the administration, have access to the facilities, etc.? Because he had something on them. And he had proof.

Who knows what that is.

It's a fascinating theory, but I think they knew about previous Sandusky crimes. Uncovering it in 2002 would've inevitably uncovered those (or Sandusky would rat them out for knowing) and what has happened recently would've happened in 02. So they continued to cover up. Why else do you cover in 02 when the guy wasn't even a coach or employee anymore? Yeah it would've been embarassing and a big story for a week but that would've been the end of it.

 

[BroncoFreak_2K3]

I think its impossible to believe that McQueary saw the rape and didn't tell Paterno the full extent. How could he not?

This is one of the two key points that caused me to change my thinking about this situation. Originally, as I posted here, I thought Paterno was being railroaded without evidence. Since he had always been someone I admired, I defended him.The other point, just as large in my mind, is the fact that though the school never notified the authorities about Sandusky, the man who accused him, McQueary, stayed with the program and was eventually promoted to assistant coach. This makes absolutely no sense. Either Paterno thinks Sandusky is guilty, in which case he covered up for him, or he thinks McQueary must be some kind of crazy liar, in which case why was he promoted? There can be logical explanation for this fact except that Paterno is guilty of a cover up.

These exact conclusions were already reached by someone else about 20 pages ago.

Impossible.

I know, right?