Jerry Sandusky accused of child molestation (1 Viewer)

[Wrighteous Ray]

You don't think other people at other universities would see that and keep it in the back of their minds the next time they're asked to cover something up?

There's still a lot of wrongdoing and criminal behavior in the world even though we routinely punish people that get caught. Sometimes we need to look at the circumstances that caused the wrongdoing in the first place. I don't think it's likely that Paterno and Curley and Shultz and Spanier were psychopaths that wanted to see kids get raped. They acted the way they did because of fear and loyalty and pride. Part of the solution to stopping these sorts of things from happening has to include more than just punishment. It has to include changing society in ways that encourage people to do the right thing.

 

[Mario Kart]

Instead of shutting it down, I say cripple them. Zero football for the next ten years. The infrastructure is in place to pick it back up in ten years. Recruiting can begin in year 9 of the ban for the "reopening" of football. Any football activity during this ban will result in additional years added to the ban.

If it is deemed to late for the current players, this coming year is the last year of football. Players after this year will have the ability to transfer, drop football, go into the NFL. If football is played this coming year, all student tickets are $1.00. The highest a ticket can be priced at is $10.00 (although tickets may have gone on sale already).

 

[Doug B]

And this story goes away.

This is going to happen, anyway. Everything falls off the news cycle. Something this big will get retrospectives every year for a few years, and after that for milestone anniversaries (10, 20, 25, etc).But there will come a time when this scandal does not come to mind first, second, and third when people hear "Penn State".

 

[fatness]

Here is a sample of the pro-Paterno side of things:

Contrary to What You Have Heard, the Freeh Report has Big Problems

http://www.johnziegler.com/editorials_details.asp?editorial=219

I read that yesterday and thought the guy really lacked understanding of the difference between an investigation done for the school administration, and a prosecution's case trying to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. So I read some of his other writing. He was made some wrong guesses, all in defense of Paterno, several weeks ago, and now that the Freeh report is out he's just defending his wrongness.

Similarly, people I speak to have a very difficult time separating what we now know about what a monster Sandusky is and what information Paterno apparently had at the time when he decided all that he had to do was notify his superiors. Based on the current evidence, all Paterno knew was that a graduate assistant had sort of witnessed Sandusky engaging in highly inappropriate contact of a sexual nature in a Penn State shower. There is no existing proof that Paterno knew of any other allegations and certainly didn’t have the full context of Sandusky’s actions we all unfortunately have now.

This leads to the next misunderstanding surrounding how easy it would have been for Paterno or anyone else to pin a child molester label on Sandsky. Not only were there no other concurrent allegations (as far as we currently know, Penn State football was unaware of the 1998 investigation into an incident which prosecutors deemed unchargeable), but Sandusky was a local hero and ran a huge charity on which thousands of people relied. A false charge of child molester would have been devastating to many people and irreversible. It has been presumed that Paterno and others at Penn State looked the other way on Sandusky out of fear of damaging their precious program, but there are other rational interpretations of their hesitancy to go public.

Most people I speak to about this presume that Paterno took part in a cover up and placed the reputation of his football team over the well being of defenseless children. But just to be clear, as of today, there is zero evidence to back up this allegation. While numerous email are being made public which indicate other Penn State officials may have participated in a cover up, there is not even one relevant mention of Joe Paterno.

June 24, 2012

 

[pollardsvision]

So, all along in this thread I've been pretty hard on all the higher ups who didn't turn Jerry in. There's really no excuse for the moral failure there.I'm not sure what more punishment to the university as a whole does to help anything though. I mean - the guys who were responsible for it either died in disgrace, are in solitary confinement for the rest of their lives, or are looking at a decent chunk of jail time and no hope of ever working in their chosen field again. They've been publicly shamed and their most pathetic failure has been exposed to the world who has responded with disgust and scorn. Their kids are probably going to have to move away from happy valley because they share a name with these guys. The university is going to pay hundreds of millions of dollars to the victims, and the football program is probably going to turn into SMU over the next couple years. Obviously, this pales in comparison to what happened to the victims of these guys - but I'm pretty sure killing the football program isn't going to provide any AD or university president any more incentive to do the right thing if they think that going to jail for a really, really long time is in the cards.Punish the hell out of the guys who covered this up. That'll provide plenty of incentive for others to not follow in their footsteps.

Yeah, I don't see any point in any sort of NCAA punishment.I think there's zero chance that any sort of death penalty or temporary suspension of the program happens. The 2nd largest football stadium in the country will not sit empty for a couple of years.College football certainly means too much to too many people and, in this case, that might've influenced some people making some tragic decisions, but ruining the PSU football program won't solve anything and it'll cost millions.The punishments for those involved are quite severe. I'm not sure the point of punishing the people that weren't involved any further (not talking about the players).

 

[Premier]

I love how Tim spent 6 months defending Paterno, and then in a day not only turns around screaming about him, but is angry that everybody is not as mad as he is.

You're the best Tim.

 

[fatness]

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Penn State leaves the statue and all references to Paterno intact. The university gets tons of money through alumni contributions and my guess is that most of them still stand by Paterno. I have some very close friends that graduated from Penn State and sent their kids there. Their attitude is that JoePa reported the incident to his higher-ups so he did what he was supposed to and his only failing was maybe he should have followed up on it. In any case they argue he was still a great man and a Penn State legend. They wouldn't support the removal of the statue.

As time goes by fewer and fewer people are going to have been part of the "glory days" of PSU football under Paterno, and the statue will be important to fewer and fewer people. I don't know what they'll do about the statue now. Incoming students probably are going to have a pretty low opinion of it and of Paterno, and that isn't likely to change over the years. The people in denial who currently want it left up will decrease in number. Sooner or later it'll either be taken down, used as a regular target for tomatoes and beer cans, or just as a pigeon poop collector.

 

[Dragons]

You don't think other people at other universities would see that and keep it in the back of their minds the next time they're asked to cover something up?

There's still a lot of wrongdoing and criminal behavior in the world even though we routinely punish people that get caught. Sometimes we need to look at the circumstances that caused the wrongdoing in the first place. I don't think it's likely that Paterno and Curley and Shultz and Spanier were psychopaths that wanted to see kids get raped. They acted the way they did because of fear and loyalty and pride. Part of the solution to stopping these sorts of things from happening has to include more than just punishment. It has to include changing society in ways that encourage people to do the right thing.

I don't think this is an argument for shutting down the football program, though. That's just another form of punishment that will only make future wrong-doers try to cover their tracks better.What kind of society changing ideas are you suggesting?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

So if the schools that rely on football see that Penn State doesn't get punished, why wouldn't they just cover up anything that would negatively affect their cash cow?

Because the people involved have had their careers destroyed and face criminal prosecution. And the school on the hook for millions of dollars of civil damages.

 

[timschochet]

I love how Tim spent 6 months defending Paterno, and then in a day not only turns around screaming about him, but is angry that everybody is not as mad as he is. You're the best Tim.

First off, I was not one of the main defenders of Paterno in this thread. I came in here from time to time and stated that, so far as I knew, there wasn't enough evidence to sustain some of the comments being made about Paterno in this thread. But I wrote from the beginning that it didn't look good. (Which is why I criticized Jutz several weeks back for having an avatar of Paterno, and for that comment I took a lot of flack from pro-Paterno people). I just didn't like people making him out to be a monster equal to Sandusky.When I made those arguments, I had no idea Paterno knew about the 1998 incident. I had no idea how much he was involved in the cover-up. It wasn't until yesterday that I realized that the worst criticisms of Paterno were dead on accurate. Perhaps I should have known, but I did not. So I apologized for my previous comments and changed my mind.I am getting sick and tired of being criticized for changing my mind, as if there is supposed to be some virtue in sticking to your original stance no matter what new facts appear. It's a really dumb critique. I am an opinionated person, and when new information arrives I may change my opinion. Yes, I am the best. And you're the worst.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Let's look at what happens if football is NOT removed: the statue gets taken away, Paterno's name is never mentioned, the school's insurance policy pays off the victims. And this story goes away. Next year, the school earns 50 million in football revenue.

Now, in all likelihood, what I just described is what WILL happen. Too much money involved to truly punish the school. But I hate it. To me, it's sweeping the whole thing under the rug. Can't let anything get in the way of college football!

You have a bizarre definition of "sweeping things under the rug."

 

[Wrighteous Ray]

You don't think other people at other universities would see that and keep it in the back of their minds the next time they're asked to cover something up?

There's still a lot of wrongdoing and criminal behavior in the world even though we routinely punish people that get caught. Sometimes we need to look at the circumstances that caused the wrongdoing in the first place. I don't think it's likely that Paterno and Curley and Shultz and Spanier were psychopaths that wanted to see kids get raped. They acted the way they did because of fear and loyalty and pride. Part of the solution to stopping these sorts of things from happening has to include more than just punishment. It has to include changing society in ways that encourage people to do the right thing.

I don't think this is an argument for shutting down the football program, though. That's just another form of punishment that will only make future wrong-doers try to cover their tracks better.What kind of society changing ideas are you suggesting?

I don't really have any good ones unfortunately. Hoping somebody else comes up with something.

 

[The Commish]

I love how Tim spent 6 months defending Paterno, and then in a day not only turns around screaming about him, but is angry that everybody is not as mad as he is. You're the best Tim.

First off, I was not one of the main defenders of Paterno in this thread. I came in here from time to time and stated that, so far as I knew, there wasn't enough evidence to sustain some of the comments being made about Paterno in this thread. But I wrote from the beginning that it didn't look good. (Which is why I criticized Jutz several weeks back for having an avatar of Paterno, and for that comment I took a lot of flack from pro-Paterno people). I just didn't like people making him out to be a monster equal to Sandusky.When I made those arguments, I had no idea Paterno knew about the 1998 incident. I had no idea how much he was involved in the cover-up. It wasn't until yesterday that I realized that the worst criticisms of Paterno were dead on accurate. Perhaps I should have known, but I did not. So I apologized for my previous comments and changed my mind.I am getting sick and tired of being criticized for changing my mind, as if there is supposed to be some virtue in sticking to your original stance no matter what new facts appear. It's a really dumb critique. I am an opinionated person, and when new information arrives I may change my opinion. Yes, I am the best. And you're the worst.

I don't think people have problems with others having opinions. I think they have a problem with them holding their opinions as superior to everyone else's when there is so little information to base that opinion on, then said person changing their mind when they get all the information. If it wasn't overstated in the first place and come across as if you knew exactly what was going on, folks would have less issue with the switching.

 

[Joe Summer]

Question still remains...what NCAA rules did they have an inability to control? Best I can tell there are no NCAA rules broken here.

The NCAA is still trying to determine if their rules were broken or not LINK.

"NCAA Bylaw 10.1 identifies 10 types of unethical conduct, but specifically makes clear that the list of 10 is not limited to those delineated."

"Surely, the spirit of this bylaw also constrains behavior that endangers young people"

Further, they have issued 4 key questions to PSU officials:

1. How has Penn State and/or its employees complied with the Articles of the Constitution and bylaws that are cited in this letter?

2. How has Penn State exercised institutional control over the issues identified in and related to the grand-jury report? Were there procedures in place that were or were not followed? What are the institution's expectations and policies to address the conduct that has been alleged in this matter upon discovery by any party?

3. Has each of the people alleged to have been involved or to have had notice of the issues identified in and related to the grand-jury report behaved consistently with principles and requirements governing ethical conduct and honesty? If so, how? If not, how?

4. What policies and procedures does Penn State have in place to monitor, prevent and detect the issues identified in and related to the grand-jury report or to take disciplinary or corrective action if such behaviors are found?

 

[timschochet]

I love how Tim spent 6 months defending Paterno, and then in a day not only turns around screaming about him, but is angry that everybody is not as mad as he is. You're the best Tim.

First off, I was not one of the main defenders of Paterno in this thread. I came in here from time to time and stated that, so far as I knew, there wasn't enough evidence to sustain some of the comments being made about Paterno in this thread. But I wrote from the beginning that it didn't look good. (Which is why I criticized Jutz several weeks back for having an avatar of Paterno, and for that comment I took a lot of flack from pro-Paterno people). I just didn't like people making him out to be a monster equal to Sandusky.When I made those arguments, I had no idea Paterno knew about the 1998 incident. I had no idea how much he was involved in the cover-up. It wasn't until yesterday that I realized that the worst criticisms of Paterno were dead on accurate. Perhaps I should have known, but I did not. So I apologized for my previous comments and changed my mind.I am getting sick and tired of being criticized for changing my mind, as if there is supposed to be some virtue in sticking to your original stance no matter what new facts appear. It's a really dumb critique. I am an opinionated person, and when new information arrives I may change my opinion. Yes, I am the best. And you're the worst.

I don't think people have problems with others having opinions. I think they have a problem with them holding their opinions as superior to everyone else's when there is so little information to base that opinion on, then said person changing their mind when they get all the information. If it wasn't overstated in the first place and come across as if you knew exactly what was going on, folks would have less issue with the switching.

I never pretended that I knew what was going on, and I never acted like my opinion was superior. You may have me confused with someone else.

 

[Christo]

Let me rephrase what I mean (I can't speak for CrossEyed.) Yes, of course it's a school problem. But first and foremost, it's a football problem. Because the whole reason for the cover up is the success of the football program. Again, if this happened at either a school without a football team (such as my alma mater, UC Irvine) or a school without a money making football team (Harvard or Yale, for example) there would have been no cover-up. Sandusky would have been caught and stopped. That's why football has to be removed from the university IMO; it's the only just result.

Sure, because no organization without a football team has ever covered for a pedophile before.

I can't think of a good example otherwise. What am I missing?

I think the Vatican's got a solid defense this year but their QB is a bit of a question mark.

We can't punish the Vatican. Too bad, I wish we could. Penn State can be punished.

What does that have to do with your statement?

Which statement?

 

[Arizona Ron]

I agree with Tim - It's a football problem.

 

[Maude]

I never pretended that I knew what was going on, and I never acted like my opinion was superior. You may have me confused with someone else.

tim, you are acting like Jay Paterno and the entire Paterno family. You just don't know when to stop talking. You are physically unable to not respond. You've changed your mind. Great!Now please... for the sake of everyone... shut the #### up already.

 

[Christo]

How are they going to give the football team the death penalty? They didn't break any NCAA rules. This is court problem not a NCAA problem.

There are numerous NCAA Bylaws that address ethics, conduct, and "lack of institutional control". Also, the NCAA has sole jurisdiction regarding enforcement -- if they decide that PSU violated the bylaws, there's really nothing PSU can do about it. Who is PSU going to appeal to?

Here is a NCAA compliance lawyers take on what the NCAA can do. Listen here

No thanks; just tell us.

If the NCAA wants to abide by what's in its rule book, no.

 

[Christo]

The NCAA, Big Ten, or Penn St won't do anything to PSU football. Just like when Paterno and gang decided to cover-up all this, it's about the money. And PSU makes all these people cash. If this happened at say Akron then the NCAA would flex its muscles.

On what basis? What NCAA rule did they break?

Lack of institutional control?

Question still remains...what NCAA rules did they have an inability to control? Best I can tell there are no NCAA rules broken here. The NCAA isn't needed here. They'd just get in the way and screw things up. This is going to take care of itself.

The NCAA will find some way to flex it's muscles on this, there's no doubt about that. This thing is too big for them not to do something and no matter what it is PSU will take it.

There's a good chance that the NCAA tries something. But there's also a good chance PSU won't take it. If the NCAA acts outside its purview it should get its hand slapped. The problem with this entire situation is that some people did what they weren't supposed to do and some people didn't do what they were supposed to do. The NCAA just perpetuates the idiocy if it decides it's going to do something it's not authorized to do.

 

[Premier]

I love how Tim spent 6 months defending Paterno, and then in a day not only turns around screaming about him, but is angry that everybody is not as mad as he is. You're the best Tim.

First off, I was not one of the main defenders of Paterno in this thread. I came in here from time to time and stated that, so far as I knew, there wasn't enough evidence to sustain some of the comments being made about Paterno in this thread. But I wrote from the beginning that it didn't look good. (Which is why I criticized Jutz several weeks back for having an avatar of Paterno, and for that comment I took a lot of flack from pro-Paterno people). I just didn't like people making him out to be a monster equal to Sandusky.When I made those arguments, I had no idea Paterno knew about the 1998 incident. I had no idea how much he was involved in the cover-up. It wasn't until yesterday that I realized that the worst criticisms of Paterno were dead on accurate. Perhaps I should have known, but I did not. So I apologized for my previous comments and changed my mind.I am getting sick and tired of being criticized for changing my mind, as if there is supposed to be some virtue in sticking to your original stance no matter what new facts appear. It's a really dumb critique. I am an opinionated person, and when new information arrives I may change my opinion. Yes, I am the best. And you're the worst.

I don't think people have problems with others having opinions. I think they have a problem with them holding their opinions as superior to everyone else's when there is so little information to base that opinion on, then said person changing their mind when they get all the information. If it wasn't overstated in the first place and come across as if you knew exactly what was going on, folks would have less issue with the switching.

I never pretended that I knew what was going on, and I never acted like my opinion was superior. You may have me confused with someone else.

I'm pretty sure you're the guy yesterday saying nobody else had the right to defend Paterno except his family.......days after you just got done defending Paterno. You junp opinions and then go to the extreme side of whatever stance you're on all too frequently, and without knowing what you're talking about.

 

[Christo]

Let me rephrase what I mean (I can't speak for CrossEyed.) Yes, of course it's a school problem. But first and foremost, it's a football problem. Because the whole reason for the cover up is the success of the football program. Again, if this happened at either a school without a football team (such as my alma mater, UC Irvine) or a school without a money making football team (Harvard or Yale, for example) there would have been no cover-up. Sandusky would have been caught and stopped. That's why football has to be removed from the university IMO; it's the only just result.

This is one billion percent wrong. It's not a "football problem". It's an institution problem. The leadership of the institution along with a lot of their staff completely failed. That staff was in the football program. If this were a cover up by the institution of the law department (using someone's example from before) where the law professors, their dean, the chancellor all covered it up, would we be saying it's a "law department" problem? Of course not. Because the institution made the decisions based on the football program doesn't mean it's a football problem. It means those decision makers (the institution) were the problem. They are responsible for their decisions regardless of what rationale they used to justify the decisions.

You're just not getting it. The whole reason for the cover up is football! You and others keep bringing up comparisons to the law department or the chemistry department or whatever, but none of these hold, because those departments don't earn millions upon millions of dollars. This is ALL about football.

No, it's not.

 

[Christo]

The only proper way to make them pay is to end the football program. Any other proposed punishment is simply not enough.

Who is "them?"

Penn State University

If you REALLY want Penn State University punished, you kick them out of the CIC and take away their research dollars. The football program is a distant second compared to that

Interesting. Are you sure about this? I understood football to be THE revenue for the school.

 

[The Commish]

Question still remains...what NCAA rules did they have an inability to control? Best I can tell there are no NCAA rules broken here.

The NCAA is still trying to determine if their rules were broken or not LINK.

"NCAA Bylaw 10.1 identifies 10 types of unethical conduct, but specifically makes clear that the list of 10 is not limited to those delineated."

"Surely, the spirit of this bylaw also constrains behavior that endangers young people"

Further, they have issued 4 key questions to PSU officials:

1. How has Penn State and/or its employees complied with the Articles of the Constitution and bylaws that are cited in this letter?

2. How has Penn State exercised institutional control over the issues identified in and related to the grand-jury report? Were there procedures in place that were or were not followed? What are the institution's expectations and policies to address the conduct that has been alleged in this matter upon discovery by any party?

3. Has each of the people alleged to have been involved or to have had notice of the issues identified in and related to the grand-jury report behaved consistently with principles and requirements governing ethical conduct and honesty? If so, how? If not, how?

4. What policies and procedures does Penn State have in place to monitor, prevent and detect the issues identified in and related to the grand-jury report or to take disciplinary or corrective action if such behaviors are found?

These are a slippery slope for the NCAA if they care about their own integrity. I suspect they don't, based on past inconsistencies, but we'll see. I doubt there are many schools who could pass these rules by the letter of the law OR the spirit of it. If I'm being completely honest, I believe the NCAA will overstep their bounds and continue to perpetuate the perception that they are a joke. They will be seen by most as simply piling on to an already terrible situation.

 

[Christo]

Let's look at what happens if football is NOT removed: the statue gets taken away, Paterno's name is never mentioned, the school's insurance policy pays off the victims. And this story goes away. Next year, the school earns 50 million in football revenue. Now, in all likelihood, what I just described is what WILL happen. Too much money involved to truly punish the school. But I hate it. To me, it's sweeping the whole thing under the rug. Can't let anything get in the way of college football!

So punishing the PEOPLE who did this and compensating the victims is now "sweeping the whole thing under the rug."

 

[Christo]

Let's look at what happens if football is NOT removed: the statue gets taken away, Paterno's name is never mentioned, the school's insurance policy pays off the victims. And this story goes away. Next year, the school earns 50 million in football revenue. Now, in all likelihood, what I just described is what WILL happen. Too much money involved to truly punish the school. But I hate it. To me, it's sweeping the whole thing under the rug. Can't let anything get in the way of college football!

Why is it necessary to you for punishment to go beyond those involved?

How is it going beyond those involved? The football program is what led to this mess. The football program should get punished. The OSU football program is serving out it's punishment, even though Pryor and Tressel are gone. USC got punished years after Bush left. In both instances it affects people who nothing to do with the infringement. Sucks for them, but they can work around it pretty easily.

Why not shut down the school?

 

[Christo]

Punish the hell out of the guys who covered this up. That'll provide plenty of incentive for others to not follow in their footsteps.

Or at least to do a better job of covering stuff up.

Doesn't that apply to pretty much any crime?

 

[Wrighteous Ray]

Punish the hell out of the guys who covered this up. That'll provide plenty of incentive for others to not follow in their footsteps.

Or at least to do a better job of covering stuff up.

Doesn't that apply to pretty much any crime?

Yeah, it's an important consideration in lots of contexts.

 

[The Commish]

It's weird to be in lock/step agreement with Christo on issues

 

[Maude]

I am appalled by mcuh of the cover up, but what has become more alarming to me is the fact that none of Sandusky's actions were ever even brought up to the Board of Trustees monthly meetings, for over 12 years. Not one mention of the 1998 incident. Not one mention of the 2001 incident. The president of the University who has first-hand knowledge of the horrible acts does not tell the Board that there might be trouble. It is just unconscionable.

 

[Short Corner]

Mike Vrabel violated an NCAA rule by using tobacco on the sidelines at the OSU scarlet/gray game. There has to be a rule that would cover coaches raping kids in the locker room.

He was an ex-coach by the time of the incident witnessed by McQueary.

Dude was allowed to use the program as his candy filled rape van, but he was ex-coach so we're cool

 

[tri-man 47]

I am appalled by mcuh of the cover up, but what has become more alarming to me is the fact that none of Sandusky's actions were ever even brought up to the Board of Trustees monthly meetings, for over 12 years. Not one mention of the 1998 incident. Not one mention of the 2001 incident. The president of the University who has first-hand knowledge of the horrible acts does not tell the Board that there might be trouble. It is just unconscionable.

It truly is amazing. I'm the Controller at a small, private school, and I have a fair amount of interaction with the Board. I see first-hand how closely the President and the Board work - and socialize - together. Those are strong relationships ...and need to be (for university business, but also fundraising with the Board, etc.). Beyond the regular meetings are numerous university-wide or college-specific academic and social events. Boards typically hold some retreats as well to spend even more time on various university matters. I.e., they're talking a lot, so there were plenty of opportunities - formal and informal - to raise a yellow or red flag.

 

[Christo]

Mike Vrabel violated an NCAA rule by using tobacco on the sidelines at the OSU scarlet/gray game. There has to be a rule that would cover coaches raping kids in the locker room.

He was an ex-coach by the time of the incident witnessed by McQueary.

Dude was allowed to use the program as his candy filled rape van, but he was ex-coach so we're cool

The mental leaps that some of you make are astounding.

 

[Limp Ditka]

Mike Vrabel violated an NCAA rule by using tobacco on the sidelines at the OSU scarlet/gray game. There has to be a rule that would cover coaches raping kids in the locker room.

He was an ex-coach by the time of the incident witnessed by McQueary.

Dude was allowed to use the program as his candy filled rape van, but he was ex-coach so we're cool

The mental leaps that some of you make are astounding.

How is the assumption that the football program (access to facilities, games, etc) being used as bait a mental leap?

 

[NCCommish]

When we start using the NCAA for law enforcement/punishment we are definitely in dire trouble. This whole shut the program down is ridiculous. It punishes everyone not the few people who were the problem. Stupid.

 

[Limp Ditka]

When we start using the NCAA for law enforcement/punishment we are definitely in dire trouble. This whole shut the program down is ridiculous. It punishes everyone not the few people who were the problem. Stupid.

This is the way I'm leaning.

 

[Billy Bats]

According to the NCAA website, the "death penalty" is only for repeat offenders...

The repeat-violator legislation (“death penalty”) is applicable to an institution if, within a five-year period, the following conditions exist:Following the announcement of a major case, a major violation occurs andThe second violation occurred within five years of the starting date of the penalty assessed in the first case. The second major case does not have to be in the same sport as the previous case to affect the second sport.

 

[Maude]

Mike Vrabel violated an NCAA rule by using tobacco on the sidelines at the OSU scarlet/gray game. There has to be a rule that would cover coaches raping kids in the locker room.

He was an ex-coach by the time of the incident witnessed by McQueary.

Dude was allowed to use the program as his candy filled rape van, but he was ex-coach so we're cool

The mental leaps that some of you make are astounding.

It's a "jump-to-conclusions" mat.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Question:

How did the McQueary stuff come to light? This was not the incident that triggered the grand jury. The victim is yet to be identified at all. I don't know that prosecutors would have questioned McQueary about anything without some type of info. So did Joe, Curley, Spainer, or Schultz (the only people who seemed to know anything about 2001) bring up the incident to prosecutors prior to the grand jury?

I guess the Second Mile guy was made aware of something in 2001. Did he bring it up during the investigation phase?

 

[Christo]

Mike Vrabel violated an NCAA rule by using tobacco on the sidelines at the OSU scarlet/gray game. There has to be a rule that would cover coaches raping kids in the locker room.

He was an ex-coach by the time of the incident witnessed by McQueary.

Dude was allowed to use the program as his candy filled rape van, but he was ex-coach so we're cool

The mental leaps that some of you make are astounding.

How is the assumption that the football program (access to facilities, games, etc) being used as bait a mental leap?

Read the entire sentence.

 

[igbomb]

When we start using the NCAA for law enforcement/punishment we are definitely in dire trouble. This whole shut the program down is ridiculous. It punishes everyone not the few people who were the problem. Stupid.

Exactly. There are a very small number of people who did wrong in this situation. What they did or didn't do is horrendous, but it is still just a small number of people. Everyone else associated with that university are now painted with the stink of this entire mess, and yet people think an appropriate next step is to throw more mud on them? Forget about the current student body and the far-flung alumni network. What about every player on the team's roster and, even more, what about all of the small business owners in the area who rely on the football program to keep a business open? They were completely ignorant that anything untowards was happening on that campus and yet they would be the most damaged by a program destroying punishment. Nevermind that the program is already going to get smoked for years due to this without any punishment applied.But hey, at least a punishment would hopefully send a message to every other program that they should report suspected wrongdoing. Of course, that message is almost certainly been sent already due to the negative fallout to the school's reputation. But far be it from me to step in front of a lynch mob hell-bent on justice.

 

[Apple Jack]

Death penalty? Hell no. I'll be surprised if there's any penalty at all.

 

[Christo]

When we start using the NCAA for law enforcement/punishment we are definitely in dire trouble. This whole shut the program down is ridiculous. It punishes everyone not the few people who were the problem. Stupid.

Exactly. There are a very small number of people who did wrong in this situation. What they did or didn't do is horrendous, but it is still just a small number of people. Everyone else associated with that university are now painted with the stink of this entire mess, and yet people think an appropriate next step is to throw more mud on them? Forget about the current student body and the far-flung alumni network. What about every player on the team's roster and, even more, what about all of the small business owners in the area who rely on the football program to keep a business open? They were completely ignorant that anything untowards was happening on that campus and yet they would be the most damaged by a program destroying punishment. Nevermind that the program is already going to get smoked for years due to this without any punishment applied.But hey, at least a punishment would hopefully send a message to every other program that they should report suspected wrongdoing. Of course, that message is almost certainly been sent already due to the negative fallout to the school's reputation. But far be it from me to step in front of a lynch mob hell-bent on justice.

That's the weirdest part. This situation is one of the most extreme outliers we've ever seen connected with colleges or college sports. The idea that people think it's necessary to kill the PSU football program to send a message to other CFB programs NOT TO PROTECT A PEDOPHILE is so astounding it boggles the mind.I wish people saying as much would just admit this is about punishment not deterrence.

 

[johnnycakes]

When we start using the NCAA for law enforcement/punishment we are definitely in dire trouble. This whole shut the program down is ridiculous. It punishes everyone not the few people who were the problem. Stupid.

Exactly. There are a very small number of people who did wrong in this situation. What they did or didn't do is horrendous, but it is still just a small number of people. Everyone else associated with that university are now painted with the stink of this entire mess, and yet people think an appropriate next step is to throw more mud on them? Forget about the current student body and the far-flung alumni network. What about every player on the team's roster and, even more, what about all of the small business owners in the area who rely on the football program to keep a business open? They were completely ignorant that anything untowards was happening on that campus and yet they would be the most damaged by a program destroying punishment. Nevermind that the program is already going to get smoked for years due to this without any punishment applied.But hey, at least a punishment would hopefully send a message to every other program that they should report suspected wrongdoing. Of course, that message is almost certainly been sent already due to the negative fallout to the school's reputation. But far be it from me to step in front of a lynch mob hell-bent on justice.

That's the weirdest part. This situation is one of the most extreme outliers we've ever seen connected with colleges or college sports. The idea that people think it's necessary to kill the PSU football program to send a message to other CFB programs NOT TOO PROTECT A PEDOPHILE is so astounding it boggles the mind.

6 years of law school down the drain.

 

[Maude]

When we start using the NCAA for law enforcement/punishment we are definitely in dire trouble. This whole shut the program down is ridiculous. It punishes everyone not the few people who were the problem. Stupid.

I understand what you are saying, but we are talking about 4 of the top positions at PSU, including the president of the university. And many argue that Paterno was the real head of the school. When you have this kind of corruption, IMHO, a clear and profound message must be sent to deter anyone from thinking about doing anything remotely as heinous.

 

[Christo]

When we start using the NCAA for law enforcement/punishment we are definitely in dire trouble. This whole shut the program down is ridiculous. It punishes everyone not the few people who were the problem. Stupid.

Exactly. There are a very small number of people who did wrong in this situation. What they did or didn't do is horrendous, but it is still just a small number of people. Everyone else associated with that university are now painted with the stink of this entire mess, and yet people think an appropriate next step is to throw more mud on them? Forget about the current student body and the far-flung alumni network. What about every player on the team's roster and, even more, what about all of the small business owners in the area who rely on the football program to keep a business open? They were completely ignorant that anything untowards was happening on that campus and yet they would be the most damaged by a program destroying punishment. Nevermind that the program is already going to get smoked for years due to this without any punishment applied.But hey, at least a punishment would hopefully send a message to every other program that they should report suspected wrongdoing. Of course, that message is almost certainly been sent already due to the negative fallout to the school's reputation. But far be it from me to step in front of a lynch mob hell-bent on justice.

That's the weirdest part. This situation is one of the most extreme outliers we've ever seen connected with colleges or college sports. The idea that people think it's necessary to kill the PSU football program to send a message to other CFB programs NOT TOO PROTECT A PEDOPHILE is so astounding it boggles the mind.

6 years of law school down the drain.

Save it for your wife.

 

[Christo]

When we start using the NCAA for law enforcement/punishment we are definitely in dire trouble. This whole shut the program down is ridiculous. It punishes everyone not the few people who were the problem. Stupid.

I understand what you are saying, but we are talking about 4 of the top positions at PSU, including the president of the university. And many argue that Paterno was the real head of the school. When you have this kind of corruption, IMHO, a clear and profound message must be sent to deter anyone from thinking about doing anything remotely as heinous.

Yes, college presidents country-wide are at this very minute re-thinking their secret "protect a pedophile" programs.

 

[Maude]

When we start using the NCAA for law enforcement/punishment we are definitely in dire trouble. This whole shut the program down is ridiculous. It punishes everyone not the few people who were the problem. Stupid.

I understand what you are saying, but we are talking about 4 of the top positions at PSU, including the president of the university. And many argue that Paterno was the real head of the school. When you have this kind of corruption, IMHO, a clear and profound message must be sent to deter anyone from thinking about doing anything remotely as heinous.

Yes, college presidents country-wide are at this very minute re-thinking their secret "protect a pedophile" programs.

LACK OF INSTITUTIONAL CONTROL!!!

 

[Sinn Fein]

So, if I follow the logic, when a bank, say Barclay's, commits a fraud like manipulates LIBOR, its ok to simply punish the people involved - and not punish the bank?

PSU, by all accounts, was corrupt up to its president. The culture that existed, was accepted and encouraged by everyone from players, students, faculty, alumni, trustees etc. To think that they are just innocent bystanders here is a bit naive, bordering on living in a fairy tale. The football program became bigger than the university because that is what all of the key stakeholders wanted. Everyone was/is complicit with the aura of invincibility that surrounded the football program.

Without that sense of entitlement that was given to the football program, much of this tragic story would have been averted.

 

[The Commish]

When we start using the NCAA for law enforcement/punishment we are definitely in dire trouble. This whole shut the program down is ridiculous. It punishes everyone not the few people who were the problem. Stupid.

I understand what you are saying, but we are talking about 4 of the top positions at PSU, including the president of the university. And many argue that Paterno was the real head of the school. When you have this kind of corruption, IMHO, a clear and profound message must be sent to deter anyone from thinking about doing anything remotely as heinous.

But that message isn't sent by firing all those people, bringing them up on charges and throwing them in jail for a long time? Do you believe the message of "don't cover for a pedophile" really needs to be sent? I'm generally pessimistic when it comes to society, but even I don't think it's that bad.