Johnny Damon placed on waivers... (1 Viewer)

[Jayrod]

Just thought I'd pass a little inside information on to the FBG community.

Just spoke with my source inside the Damon camp and he told me that Damon is on wiavers and highly interested in Tampa Bay as his family is at their new home in Orlando.

 

[Northern Voice]

Isn't (almost) everyone on the league on waivers right now, I don't think Damon would clear.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Isn't (almost) everyone on the league on waivers right now, I don't think Damon would clear.

I heard Inge was out there too, like you said they usually don't clear, just lets a team know who potential trade partners could be.

 

[Limp Ditka]

With Boston having 1st dibs, in relation to it's AL East foes, I wonder what they would do.

They certainly could use an Outfielder

 

[Eephus]

He's on a one year contract so I think Damon would get interest from a number of teams on the fringe of the race. Tampa has the second best record in baseball; they probably won't get a chance to make a deal for him.

 

[skillz]

Isn't (almost) everyone on the league on waivers right now, I don't think Damon would clear.

I heard Inge was out there too, like you said they usually don't clear, just lets a team know who potential trade partners could be.

Yep, Detroit News is reporting both Inge and Damon have been placed on waivers.

 

[gump]

Does Damon himself have any say in deals offered by teams, or are the Tigers the exclusive decision maker?

 

[Jayrod]

Does Damon himself have any say in deals offered by teams, or are the Tigers the exclusive decision maker?

Directly? No. But I'm sure there is some indirect influence there.Apparently he really wants to leave now that Detroit is in freefall. He's running out of years and wants to be on a contender. Keeping an unhappy, aging player usually doesn't do a lot for a team. From what I heard, putting him on waivers was a bit of a pre-discussed favor if they fell out of contention. I think they may be leaning toward letting him go.

 

[Premier]

I doubt it happens this year, but I could actually see him signing a cheap one-year deal to DH with the Rays next year. They had awful luck with that slug Pat Burrell, but Damon is used to DHing and used to being in the ALE. He'd probably fit in the locker room pretty well, too.

 

[Osaurus]

Lots of folks saying there is interest in Manny as DH here in Tampa. Doubt this will happen.

 

[skillz]

Does Damon himself have any say in deals offered by teams, or are the Tigers the exclusive decision maker?

Apparently his contract only allows the Tigers to trade him to 8 teams but no one is saying who those teams are.

 

[Snotbubbles]

Lots of folks saying there is interest in Manny as DH here in Tampa. Doubt this will happen.

Last time I saw Manny, he couldn't catch up to a fast ball in the NLCS.He could still hit the breaking pitches far though.

 

[Raider Nation]

Great business decision trying to bully the Yanks into a better offer. Oof.

 

[dparker713]

So, he wants to go to Tampa, but why would Tampa want him?

 

[Limp Ditka]

So, he wants to go to Tampa, but why would Tampa want him?

Because Willie Aybar is their DH tonightBecause Dan Johnson was their DH the night before.

 

[Raider Nation]

This will not help his Hall of Fame candidacy.

 

[shadyridr]

Lots of folks saying there is interest in Manny as DH here in Tampa. Doubt this will happen.

Last time I saw Manny, he couldn't catch up to a fast ball in the NLCS.He could still hit the breaking pitches far though.

hes always been a breaking ball hitter

 

[dparker713]

So, he wants to go to Tampa, but why would Tampa want him?

Because Willie Aybar is their DH tonightBecause Dan Johnson was their DH the night before.

And Damon is marginally better than a platoon of those guys, for a cost of about 2 mil for the rest of the season.

 

[Limp Ditka]

So, he wants to go to Tampa, but why would Tampa want him?

Because Willie Aybar is their DH tonightBecause Dan Johnson was their DH the night before.

And Damon is marginally better than a platoon of those guys, for a cost of about 2 mil for the rest of the season.

Marginally? Dan Johnson is hitting .1 #######g 14. Willie Aybar has a .639 OPS as a LHB and a .681 OPS overall.They're both performing at a negative WARDamon is only at .768 OPS (what's .100 points in OPS anyway?) but that's being done in probably the 2nd worst AL park for hitters. It's not marginal

 

[Premier]

Not to get too stat-geeky, but Johnson has only 35 at-bats, and already 14 walks. His BAPIP is also laughably low too. I think he can be useful.

But obviously Damon is better and Aybar sucks out loud.

 

[Limp Ditka]

Not to get too stat-geeky, but Johnson has only 35 at-bats, and already 14 walks. His BAPIP is also laughably low too. I think he can be useful.But obviously Damon is better and Aybar sucks out loud.

Agreed that Johnson's sample size is small, but he's never really done anything. He has one year of an .800+ OPS and that was his rookie year in 2005. Since that year and he's .228 .338 .394 .733 over 905 plate appearances.Also, Damon has 50+ post season games under his belt, I think the Rays should get him if they can.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Is this where we talk about how "awesome" Matt Joyce is?

No reason for the Tigers to trade Damon for a plate of cornbread, especially since Damon has already said he would like to return to Detroit next year. If someone gives them something, then sure.

 

[Premier]

Is this where we talk about how "awesome" Matt Joyce is?

.385/.513/.898 against righties. Hate to be the one to break it to you, but that's pretty awesome.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Is this where we talk about how "awesome" Matt Joyce is?

.385/.513/.898 against righties. Hate to be the one to break it to you, but that's pretty awesome.

I love how you are for sample size when it fits your argument, yet against it when it doesn't. Here are his career numbers vs righties .245/.346/.510Joyce is .223/.354/.462 against both lefties and righties this year, with six HRs. Not bad, but far from awesome. He's done this at every level, in every year. Good but not great power, lots of Ks, can't hit plus pitches and he is beyond terrible vs LH piching (.171/.277/.244). So in a playoff game he is completely useless after the 6th inning since they'll just bring a LH pitcher in against him so he can roll it back to the pitcher.

 

[Premier]

Is this where we talk about how "awesome" Matt Joyce is?

.385/.513/.898 against righties. Hate to be the one to break it to you, but that's pretty awesome.

I love how you are for sample size when it fits your argument, yet against it when it doesn't. Here are his career numbers vs righties .245/.346/.510Joyce is .223/.354/.462 against both lefties and righties this year, with six HRs. Not bad, but far from awesome. He's done this at every level, in every year. Good but not great power, lots of Ks, can't hit plus pitches and he is beyond terrible vs LH piching (.171/.277/.244). So in a playoff game he is completely useless after the 6th inning since they'll just bring a LH pitcher in against him so he can roll it back to the pitcher.

I love how you keep using his rookie year numbers against him, without realizing he can actually, you know, get better. It's kind of astonishing, actually. He doesn't hit lefties right now, and he's basically in a platoon of sorts with Sean Rodriguez because of it. Everybody will acknowledge that. But he's crushing righties in the majors, he crushed them in AAA this year, and if you don't want to realize it, well, it doesn't really matter. He certainly would look good in the lifeless Tigers lineup right now.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Is this where we talk about how "awesome" Matt Joyce is?

.385/.513/.898 against righties. Hate to be the one to break it to you, but that's pretty awesome.

I love how you are for sample size when it fits your argument, yet against it when it doesn't. Here are his career numbers vs righties .245/.346/.510Joyce is .223/.354/.462 against both lefties and righties this year, with six HRs. Not bad, but far from awesome. He's done this at every level, in every year. Good but not great power, lots of Ks, can't hit plus pitches and he is beyond terrible vs LH piching (.171/.277/.244). So in a playoff game he is completely useless after the 6th inning since they'll just bring a LH pitcher in against him so he can roll it back to the pitcher.

I love how you keep using his rookie year numbers against him, without realizing he can actually, you know, get better. It's kind of astonishing, actually. He doesn't hit lefties right now, and he's basically in a platoon of sorts with Sean Rodriguez because of it. Everybody will acknowledge that. But he's crushing righties in the majors, he crushed them in AAA this year, and if you don't want to realize it, well, it doesn't really matter. He certainly would look good in the lifeless Tigers lineup right now.

Oh cappy. Tigers don't need another .220 hitter who can't hit lefties, that's why they traded his one dimensional ###.

 

[Premier]

Actually you looking at his line against righties and not thinking that's pretty good speaks a lot more to your pretty severe lack of understanding.

But I'm sure the bitter Internet Tigers fan knows more about this kid than Andrew Friedman.

 

[Premier]

Lol at using batting average in an argument. No wonder you don't understand why he's good.

I'm sorry I didn't realize you were a 78-year-old baseball writer. Carry on.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Lol at using batting average in an argument. No wonder you don't understand why he's good. I'm sorry I didn't realize you were a 78-year-old baseball writer. Carry on.

OMG his six HRs and almost .900 OPS vs righties is going to make him an all-star yet. .243 OPS career against lefties, stop ignoring the fact the guy is essentially one dimensional and is useless in the playoffs because of match-ups. Tampa doesn't even have enough confidence in hm to use him in the field (10 games at DH). Remember when you were going on that he was a plus fielder when the trade went down? How's that workin' out? Ignoring the fact Tampa probably does want Damon because Joyce is just not very good is really scary denial. Also what does "internet Tigers fan" mean? Is that like the Tampa fan who just started following baseball 2 years ago or is it a higher standing?

 

[Brady Marino]

With all of the talk about how this place has sucked in the past year or so, seeing two old legends duke it out is good times.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Also are you saying batting average is a useless stat? Are you serious? It is the fundamental gauge for long-term success because baseball after all, is about hitting a ####### baseball. I prefer OPS as the best indicator of success but I also would never discount average. Rod Carew never had a great OPS but he certainly was an impact player and a Hall of Famer because the guy could hit the ball. Larry Walker wasn't a better hitter or player than Carew, Todd Helton is not a better hitter /player than Mickey Mantle, Wade Boggs or Shoeless Joe yet he has a better OPS.

Average is a greater predictor of success than OBP, because if you can't hit sooner or later you won't be able to walk either. A walk does not have the same value as a single, it never has and never will. the reason is because there will always be the Vlad Guerreros of the baseball world that hit for a high average, and don't walk a whole lot bringing his OPS numbers down. Vlad is twice the player Helton ever was, so are most of the guys in the top 50 career average list. Bill James I hate to say, is not always right. Dismissing average altogether is also something not even James does, that current trending shtick is mind boggling.

 

[Raider Nation]

seeing two old legends duke it out is good times.

All this thread needs now is moops to nerd things up with some stats nobody except Keith Olbermann understands.

 

[Premier]

Lol at using batting average in an argument. No wonder you don't understand why he's good.

I'm sorry I didn't realize you were a 78-year-old baseball writer. Carry on.

OMG his six HRs and almost .900 OPS vs righties is going to make him an all-star yet. .243 OPS career against lefties, stop ignoring the fact the guy is essentially one dimensional and is useless in the playoffs because of match-ups. Tampa doesn't even have enough confidence in hm to use him in the field (10 games at DH). Remember when you were going on that he was a plus fielder when the trade went down? How's that workin' out? Ignoring the fact Tampa probably does want Damon because Joyce is just not very good is really scary denial.

Also what does "internet Tigers fan" mean? Is that like the Tampa fan who just started following baseball 2 years ago or is it a higher standing?

Wow you're coming off bad here. As if Joyce is the first 25-year-old lefty who has struggled hitting lefties? That makes him meaningless in the post-season? If they face a tough lefty in the 7th inning, you PH Sean Rodriguez for Joyce, move Sean to 2B and Zobrist to RF. The Rays have done things like this dozens and dozens of times this year, with great success. It's called versatility, and they have it. Now hopefully he eventually develops against LHP, but even in a platoon I'll take his .900 OPS, thanks. As for his defense...well so far fangraphs has his UZR at 3.8, and his WAR at 1.1, after 47 games. That's not shabby, not that you know what either one of them means. He also has 93 of his 130 plate appearances while playing in the field, which means he roughly spent the equivalent of 9 games at DH. And why did he do that? Well, because the Rays have ++ defenders in Brignac, Rodriguez, Joyce and Zobrist, and Zobrist three of them can play multiple positions on the diamond. And they also have no useful DH. So that means somebody had to hit there if they wanted to play them all. Jesus Christ.

As for you having the nerve to call somebody out for their fandom, aren't you the same guy who roots for the Detroit Tigers, Detroit Red Wings, Detroit Pistons and the Detroit Lio*record stops* Seattle Seahawks?? You're an atrocious fan. You can't even find the stomach to root for the one truly awful team in your city. And you have the nerve to call yourself Doctor Detroit? You're an embarrassment to every real fan in that city who actually sticks by all his teams, even through the ####. You're like Fan AIDS.

You're really coming off so poor and uninformed here that I'm almost afraid you're going to make a 250-word post soon on how batting average is still a useful and meaningful statistic.

 

[Premier]

Also are you saying batting average is a useless stat? Are you serious? It is the fundamental gauge for long-term success because baseball after all, is about hitting a ####### baseball. I prefer OPS as the best indicator of success but I also would never discount average. Rod Carew never had a great OPS but he certainly was an impact player and a Hall of Famer because the guy could hit the ball. Larry Walker wasn't a better hitter or player than Carew, Todd Helton is not a better hitter /player than Mickey Mantle, Wade Boggs or Shoeless Joe yet he has a better OPS. Average is a greater predictor of success than OBP, because if you can't hit sooner or later you won't be able to walk either. A walk does not have the same value as a single, it never has and never will. the reason is because there will always be the Vlad Guerreros of the baseball world that hit for a high average, and don't walk a whole lot bringing his OPS numbers down. Vlad is twice the player Helton ever was, so are most of the guys in the top 50 career average list. Bill James I hate to say, is not always right. Dismissing average altogether is also something not even James does, that current trending shtick is mind boggling.

 

[Brady Marino]

seeing two old legends duke it out is good times.

All this thread needs now is moops to nerd things up with some stats nobody except Keith Olbermann understands.

And we need larry_boy to talk about dragons.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Lol at using batting average in an argument. No wonder you don't understand why he's good.

I'm sorry I didn't realize you were a 78-year-old baseball writer. Carry on.

OMG his six HRs and almost .900 OPS vs righties is going to make him an all-star yet. .243 OPS career against lefties, stop ignoring the fact the guy is essentially one dimensional and is useless in the playoffs because of match-ups. Tampa doesn't even have enough confidence in hm to use him in the field (10 games at DH). Remember when you were going on that he was a plus fielder when the trade went down? How's that workin' out? Ignoring the fact Tampa probably does want Damon because Joyce is just not very good is really scary denial.

Also what does "internet Tigers fan" mean? Is that like the Tampa fan who just started following baseball 2 years ago or is it a higher standing?

Wow you're coming off bad here. As if Joyce is the first 25-year-old lefty who has struggled hitting lefties? That makes him meaningless in the post-season? If they face a tough lefty in the 7th inning, you PH Sean Rodriguez for Joyce, move Sean to 2B and Zobrist to RF. The Rays have done things like this dozens and dozens of times this year, with great success. It's called versatility, and they have it. Now hopefully he eventually develops against LHP, but even in a platoon I'll take his .900 OPS, thanks. As for his defense...well so far fangraphs has his UZR at 3.8, and his WAR at 1.1, after 47 games. That's not shabby, not that you know what either one of them means. He also has 93 of his 130 plate appearances while playing in the field, which means he roughly spent the equivalent of 9 games at DH. And why did he do that? Well, because the Rays have ++ defenders in Brignac, Rodriguez, Joyce and Zobrist, and Zobrist three of them can play multiple positions on the diamond. And they also have no useful DH. So that means somebody had to hit there if they wanted to play them all. Jesus Christ.

As for you having the nerve to call somebody out for their fandom, aren't you the same guy who roots for the Detroit Tigers, Detroit Red Wings, Detroit Pistons and the Detroit Lio*record stops* Seattle Seahawks?? You're an atrocious fan. You can't even find the stomach to root for the one truly awful team in your city. And you have the nerve to call yourself Doctor Detroit? You're an embarrassment to every real fan in that city who actually sticks by all his teams, even through the ####. You're like Fan AIDS.

You're really coming off so poor and uninformed here that I'm almost afraid you're going to make a 250-word post soon on how batting average is still a useful and meaningful statistic.

His UZR is behind fielding legends like Matt Holiday and Don Kelly and a WAR of 1 tells us he is just barely above replacement level so I'm not sure why you chose to use that. His WAR is behind Brennen Boesch, Cody Ross and is the same as future Hall of Famer Corey Patterson. I know you're learning, baseball just came to Tampa last year so it's all in the learning process like not bringing your baseball glove to the field anymore and finding seats close to the beer vendor who doesn't serve Miller or Bud products. Also what is your definition of a "++" fielder? Is this a scale to four pluses? Brignac is 21st in UZR at SS behind Miguel Tejada and standout Cliff Pennington. Ramon Santiago for example has a range rating of 6 and an UZR of 5.6 much better than Brignac yet I think the only way he is a ++ fielder is if ten shortstops retired in the off-season and they found the replacements in a Dutch Antilles league. Sean Rodriguez? I mean Carl Crawford and Evan Longoria are two of the best fielders in baseball, maybe you are confusing some of these guys on your team since you are new to this.

 

[Premier]

Lol at using batting average in an argument. No wonder you don't understand why he's good.

I'm sorry I didn't realize you were a 78-year-old baseball writer. Carry on.

OMG his six HRs and almost .900 OPS vs righties is going to make him an all-star yet. .243 OPS career against lefties, stop ignoring the fact the guy is essentially one dimensional and is useless in the playoffs because of match-ups. Tampa doesn't even have enough confidence in hm to use him in the field (10 games at DH). Remember when you were going on that he was a plus fielder when the trade went down? How's that workin' out? Ignoring the fact Tampa probably does want Damon because Joyce is just not very good is really scary denial.

Also what does "internet Tigers fan" mean? Is that like the Tampa fan who just started following baseball 2 years ago or is it a higher standing?

Wow you're coming off bad here. As if Joyce is the first 25-year-old lefty who has struggled hitting lefties? That makes him meaningless in the post-season? If they face a tough lefty in the 7th inning, you PH Sean Rodriguez for Joyce, move Sean to 2B and Zobrist to RF. The Rays have done things like this dozens and dozens of times this year, with great success. It's called versatility, and they have it. Now hopefully he eventually develops against LHP, but even in a platoon I'll take his .900 OPS, thanks. As for his defense...well so far fangraphs has his UZR at 3.8, and his WAR at 1.1, after 47 games. That's not shabby, not that you know what either one of them means. He also has 93 of his 130 plate appearances while playing in the field, which means he roughly spent the equivalent of 9 games at DH. And why did he do that? Well, because the Rays have ++ defenders in Brignac, Rodriguez, Joyce and Zobrist, and Zobrist three of them can play multiple positions on the diamond. And they also have no useful DH. So that means somebody had to hit there if they wanted to play them all. Jesus Christ.

As for you having the nerve to call somebody out for their fandom, aren't you the same guy who roots for the Detroit Tigers, Detroit Red Wings, Detroit Pistons and the Detroit Lio*record stops* Seattle Seahawks?? You're an atrocious fan. You can't even find the stomach to root for the one truly awful team in your city. And you have the nerve to call yourself Doctor Detroit? You're an embarrassment to every real fan in that city who actually sticks by all his teams, even through the ####. You're like Fan AIDS.

You're really coming off so poor and uninformed here that I'm almost afraid you're going to make a 250-word post soon on how batting average is still a useful and meaningful statistic.

His UZR is behind fielding legends like Matt Holiday and Don Kelly and a WAR of 1 tells us he is just barely above replacement level so I'm not sure why you chose to use that. His WAR is behind Brennen Boesch, Cody Ross and is the same as future Hall of Famer Corey Patterson. I know you're learning, baseball just came to Tampa last year so it's all in the learning process like not bringing your baseball glove to the field anymore and finding seats close to the beer vendor who doesn't serve Miller or Bud products. Also what is your definition of a "++" fielder? Is this a scale to four pluses? Brignac is 21st in UZR at SS behind Miguel Tejada and standout Cliff Pennington. Ramon Santiago for example has a range rating of 6 and an UZR of 5.6 much better than Brignac yet I think the only way he is a ++ fielder is if ten shortstops retired in the off-season and they found the replacements in a Dutch Antilles league. Sean Rodriguez? I mean Carl Crawford and Evan Longoria are two of the best fielders in baseball, maybe you are confusing some of these guys on your team since you are new to this.

He has that WAR after only 40 games. I'm sorry you don't understand anything about it. It would make for a more compelling discussion if you could reference more stats than batting average. :( Btw, Brignac has played maybe about a dozen full games at SS this year. But way to look up his numbers there. Stay informed.

Maybe I'm wrong and all these guys on the Rays suck. They just got really lucky to be almost 30 over .500 in mid-August.

 

[MAC_32]

The Tigers got one good year of pitching, their CF and #2 hitter (prognosticating) for the future, their future #2 pitcher, and a potential future closer for two 3rd OF's that can't hit lefties.

Joyce has a good glove and mashes vs. righties, but his inability to hit vs. lefties limits his long term ceiling, the same problem Granderson ran into. What Boesch did earlier this season is little different than what Joyce is doing right now with the exception being the Tigers would have preferred Joyce's glove to Boesch's, which is terrible.

Joyce has value, but I'm not seeing the point in your guys' pissing match. If the point is to say Edwin Jackson sucks I don't think you'll get anyone to argue that. The Rays got rid of Jackson and got a decent prospect, the Tigers got rid of Jackson and got several decent prospects. Tigers win, then the Rays win, and the rest involved lose. Now continue with your previously scheduled **** measuring contest...

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Lol at using batting average in an argument. No wonder you don't understand why he's good.

I'm sorry I didn't realize you were a 78-year-old baseball writer. Carry on.

OMG his six HRs and almost .900 OPS vs righties is going to make him an all-star yet. .243 OPS career against lefties, stop ignoring the fact the guy is essentially one dimensional and is useless in the playoffs because of match-ups. Tampa doesn't even have enough confidence in hm to use him in the field (10 games at DH). Remember when you were going on that he was a plus fielder when the trade went down? How's that workin' out? Ignoring the fact Tampa probably does want Damon because Joyce is just not very good is really scary denial.

Also what does "internet Tigers fan" mean? Is that like the Tampa fan who just started following baseball 2 years ago or is it a higher standing?

Wow you're coming off bad here. As if Joyce is the first 25-year-old lefty who has struggled hitting lefties? That makes him meaningless in the post-season? If they face a tough lefty in the 7th inning, you PH Sean Rodriguez for Joyce, move Sean to 2B and Zobrist to RF. The Rays have done things like this dozens and dozens of times this year, with great success. It's called versatility, and they have it. Now hopefully he eventually develops against LHP, but even in a platoon I'll take his .900 OPS, thanks. As for his defense...well so far fangraphs has his UZR at 3.8, and his WAR at 1.1, after 47 games. That's not shabby, not that you know what either one of them means. He also has 93 of his 130 plate appearances while playing in the field, which means he roughly spent the equivalent of 9 games at DH. And why did he do that? Well, because the Rays have ++ defenders in Brignac, Rodriguez, Joyce and Zobrist, and Zobrist three of them can play multiple positions on the diamond. And they also have no useful DH. So that means somebody had to hit there if they wanted to play them all. Jesus Christ.

As for you having the nerve to call somebody out for their fandom, aren't you the same guy who roots for the Detroit Tigers, Detroit Red Wings, Detroit Pistons and the Detroit Lio*record stops* Seattle Seahawks?? You're an atrocious fan. You can't even find the stomach to root for the one truly awful team in your city. And you have the nerve to call yourself Doctor Detroit? You're an embarrassment to every real fan in that city who actually sticks by all his teams, even through the ####. You're like Fan AIDS.

You're really coming off so poor and uninformed here that I'm almost afraid you're going to make a 250-word post soon on how batting average is still a useful and meaningful statistic.

His UZR is behind fielding legends like Matt Holiday and Don Kelly and a WAR of 1 tells us he is just barely above replacement level so I'm not sure why you chose to use that. His WAR is behind Brennen Boesch, Cody Ross and is the same as future Hall of Famer Corey Patterson. I know you're learning, baseball just came to Tampa last year so it's all in the learning process like not bringing your baseball glove to the field anymore and finding seats close to the beer vendor who doesn't serve Miller or Bud products. Also what is your definition of a "++" fielder? Is this a scale to four pluses? Brignac is 21st in UZR at SS behind Miguel Tejada and standout Cliff Pennington. Ramon Santiago for example has a range rating of 6 and an UZR of 5.6 much better than Brignac yet I think the only way he is a ++ fielder is if ten shortstops retired in the off-season and they found the replacements in a Dutch Antilles league. Sean Rodriguez? I mean Carl Crawford and Evan Longoria are two of the best fielders in baseball, maybe you are confusing some of these guys on your team since you are new to this.

He has that WAR after only 40 games. I'm sorry you don't understand anything about it. It would make for a more compelling discussion if you could reference more stats than batting average. :( Btw, Brignac has played maybe about a dozen full games at SS this year. But way to look up his numbers there. Stay informed.

Maybe I'm wrong and all these guys on the Rays suck. They just got really lucky to be almost 30 over .500 in mid-August.

You're really embarrassing yourself here. WAR is based not on raw games played but on average PAs in the wRAA number that is used in the formula to calculate RAR which is the baseline for calculating WAR. So Joyce's OBP .354 minus the league average OBP X 1.15 X plate appearances. Why are you arguing about this when you obviously don't understand what it even takes to calculate WAR? This makes no sense. You also were pimping WAR like it is fielding specific, it isn't. WAR also doesn't do well with DH's as a component of WAR is fielding and as we know Joyce isn't great out there and has to DH a lot (or because he's behind all those ++ fielders in Tampa as you would have us believe). Maybe Tampa will have a class to get all their part time fans properly referencing Bill James and then going to the game so we don't have to see a thousand empty seats for every 1 game the Rays are over .500.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Joyce has value, but I'm not seeing the point in your guys' pissing match.

We have been arguing like this for about seven years now and we do it for entertainment purposes, both for us and the constituency. FBG used to be like this, posters exchanging pleasantries in a protracted argument and then ing ten minutes later. It's a lost art to be honest, Premier and his aliases are one of my top five all-time FBG posters and we both like to argue. Makes for interesting internet IMO.

 

[MAC_32]

Joyce has value, but I'm not seeing the point in your guys' pissing match.

We have been arguing like this for about seven years now and we do it for entertainment purposes, both for us and the constituency. FBG used to be like this, posters exchanging pleasantries in a protracted argument and then ing ten minutes later. It's a lost art to be honest, Premier and his aliases are one of my top five all-time FBG posters and we both like to argue. Makes for interesting internet IMO.

I guess your and I's definition of entertainment aren't the same. Until this thread I didn't know Premier was Capella, which is another peeve of mine, why does a poster need 19 different alias'? Bah, I feel older and crankier with every word a type so I'm going to bow out of this now

 

[Brady Marino]

Joyce has value, but I'm not seeing the point in your guys' pissing match.

We have been arguing like this for about seven years now and we do it for entertainment purposes, both for us and the constituency. FBG used to be like this, posters exchanging pleasantries in a protracted argument and then ing ten minutes later. It's a lost art to be honest, Premier and his aliases are one of my top five all-time FBG posters and we both like to argue. Makes for interesting internet IMO.

I guess your and I's definition of entertainment aren't the same. Until this thread I didn't know Premier was Capella, which is another peeve of mine, why does a poster need 19 different alias'? Bah, I feel older and crankier with every word a type so I'm going to bow out of this now

He needs the aliases because Joe and Co. keep banning them. Take me for instance. This time two days ago, I was a happy original FBG poster with a recognizable username. Now, I'm an unknown for about a month. Tis the life.

 

[the moops]

A walk does not have the same value as a single, it never has and never will. the reason is because there will always be the Vlad Guerreros of the baseball world that hit for a high average, and don't walk a whole lot bringing his OPS numbers down. Vlad is twice the player Helton ever was, so are most of the guys in the top 50 career average list.

Todd Helton has a career BA of 324. Vlad has a career BA of 320.Now, certainly Helton's OPS is helped by his amazing OBP #s (career 424), but it wasn't until the past 3 years when he completely fell off the cliff, that Vlad posted better slugging numbers than Helton.Point being, you could have found a much better candidate than Todd Helton when ripping on the usefulness of batting average compared to OPS.

 

[Premier]

Joyce has value, but I'm not seeing the point in your guys' pissing match.

We have been arguing like this for about seven years now and we do it for entertainment purposes, both for us and the constituency. FBG used to be like this, posters exchanging pleasantries in a protracted argument and then ing ten minutes later. It's a lost art to be honest, Premier and his aliases are one of my top five all-time FBG posters and we both like to argue. Makes for interesting internet IMO.

I agree. I think we talked a few years ago of a beer over a spring training game if we ever get it together. We can do so while laughing at Jim Leyland.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

A walk does not have the same value as a single, it never has and never will. the reason is because there will always be the Vlad Guerreros of the baseball world that hit for a high average, and don't walk a whole lot bringing his OPS numbers down. Vlad is twice the player Helton ever was, so are most of the guys in the top 50 career average list.

Todd Helton has a career BA of 324. Vlad has a career BA of 320.Now, certainly Helton's OPS is helped by his amazing OBP #s (career 424), but it wasn't until the past 3 years when he completely fell off the cliff, that Vlad posted better slugging numbers than Helton.Point being, you could have found a much better candidate than Todd Helton when ripping on the usefulness of batting average compared to OPS.

Probably so, but now imagine if Vlad had played his entire career in Colorado.

 

[dparker713]

You're really embarrassing yourself here. WAR is based not on raw games played but on average PAs in the wRAA number that is used in the formula to calculate RAR which is the baseline for calculating WAR. So Joyce's OBP .354 minus the league average OBP X 1.15 X plate appearances. Why are you arguing about this when you obviously don't understand what it even takes to calculate WAR? This makes no sense. You also were pimping WAR like it is fielding specific, it isn't. WAR also doesn't do well with DH's as a component of WAR is fielding and as we know Joyce isn't great out there and has to DH a lot (or because he's behind all those ++ fielders in Tampa as you would have us believe).

WAR is a counting stat, so the number of games played to obtain a certain WAR is highly relevant. The fielding component of WAR includes a positional adjustment, which takes into account time spent at DH.Partial season UZR ratings are highly susceptible to small sample size issues. Quoting those numbers does not prove anything generally.Batting average is a component of OBP, and an important component at that - its near impossible to have a good OBP without a decent BA, but OBP is significantly more important. And Damon, at this point, just isnt worth trading anything of value for.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

WAR is based not on raw games played but on average PAs in the wRAA number that is used in the formula to calculate RAR which is the baseline for calculating WAR. So Joyce's OBP .354 minus the league average OBP X 1.15 X plate appearances. WAR also doesn't do well with DH's as a component of WAR is fielding and as we know Joyce isn't great out there and has to DH a lot (or because he's behind all those ++ fielders in Tampa as you would have us believe).

WAR is a counting stat, so the number of games played to obtain a certain WAR is highly relevant.

You obviously have to play a certain amount of games to obtain a certain indicator but 50 games is plenty. There are elements within the formula which are not "counting" also, so even if games played is relevant whether its highly relevant is a matter of opinion. Buster Posey has a WAR of 3.1 in 73 games, and several players are over 4 with 100 games played.

Partial season UZR ratings are highly susceptible to small sample size issues. Quoting those numbers does not prove anything generally.

Same applies to Joyce then, which was near the beginning of this argument.

Batting average is a component of OBP, and an important component at that - its near impossible to have a good OBP without a decent BA, but OBP is significantly more important.

Not really. Joyce has a high OBP (.353) and an pretty low average. So does Carlos Pena, Jack Cust, Josh Willingham, Adam Dunn his whole career, and Brian McCann among others. #### Mark Reynolds is hitting .214 yet has an overage MLB OBP number of .330. You can find these guys every single year. Elite OBP maybe, but then again Fielder is hitting .268 this year and has a .405 OBP. I guess it depends on what you consider "good" and "decent."

 

[igbomb]

WAR is based not on raw games played but on average PAs in the wRAA number that is used in the formula to calculate RAR which is the baseline for calculating WAR. So Joyce's OBP .354 minus the league average OBP X 1.15 X plate appearances. WAR also doesn't do well with DH's as a component of WAR is fielding and as we know Joyce isn't great out there and has to DH a lot (or because he's behind all those ++ fielders in Tampa as you would have us believe).

WAR is a counting stat, so the number of games played to obtain a certain WAR is highly relevant.

You obviously have to play a certain amount of games to obtain a certain indicator but 50 games is plenty. There are elements within the formula which are not "counting" also, so even if games played is relevant whether its highly relevant is a matter of opinion. Buster Posey has a WAR of 3.1 in 73 games, and several players are over 4 with 100 games played.

Partial season UZR ratings are highly susceptible to small sample size issues. Quoting those numbers does not prove anything generally.

Same applies to Joyce then, which was near the beginning of this argument.

Batting average is a component of OBP, and an important component at that - its near impossible to have a good OBP without a decent BA, but OBP is significantly more important.

Not really. Joyce has a high OBP (.353) and an pretty low average. So does Carlos Pena, Jack Cust, Josh Willingham, Adam Dunn his whole career, and Brian McCann among others. #### Mark Reynolds is hitting .214 yet has an overage MLB OBP number of .330. You can find these guys every single year. Elite OBP maybe, but then again Fielder is hitting .268 this year and has a .405 OBP. I guess it depends on what you consider "good" and "decent."

Dr. D - Every element of WAR is scaled. The batting element is based off of wOBA and is scaled to plate appearances, and the fielding element and positional adjustment is scaled to innings at each position. There is no aspect of it that does not scale.I'm a big fan of wOBA over BA, OBP, OPS and all of the other traditional stats. Two things are crystal clear when it comes to Matt Joyce and his wOBA. One, his sample size is pretty small against righties and downright tiny against lefties. And two, with a caveat for the sample size, he is well above average against righties, especially this year, but is terrible against lefties.This extreme split stuff drives me crazy, which is why I wasn't sad to see Granderson go, and is also why I don't think the Tigers lost anything in Joyce.I don't imagine Joyce will ever be an everyday player. Good platoon guy, but at best a fourth or fifth outfielder.

 

[dparker713]

WAR is based not on raw games played but on average PAs in the wRAA number that is used in the formula to calculate RAR which is the baseline for calculating WAR. So Joyce's OBP .354 minus the league average OBP X 1.15 X plate appearances. WAR also doesn't do well with DH's as a component of WAR is fielding and as we know Joyce isn't great out there and has to DH a lot (or because he's behind all those ++ fielders in Tampa as you would have us believe).

WAR is a counting stat, so the number of games played to obtain a certain WAR is highly relevant.

You obviously have to play a certain amount of games to obtain a certain indicator but 50 games is plenty. There are elements within the formula which are not "counting" also, so even if games played is relevant whether its highly relevant is a matter of opinion. Buster Posey has a WAR of 3.1 in 73 games, and several players are over 4 with 100 games played.

Partial season UZR ratings are highly susceptible to small sample size issues. Quoting those numbers does not prove anything generally.

Same applies to Joyce then, which was near the beginning of this argument.

Batting average is a component of OBP, and an important component at that - its near impossible to have a good OBP without a decent BA, but OBP is significantly more important.

Not really. Joyce has a high OBP (.353) and an pretty low average. So does Carlos Pena, Jack Cust, Josh Willingham, Adam Dunn his whole career, and Brian McCann among others. #### Mark Reynolds is hitting .214 yet has an overage MLB OBP number of .330. You can find these guys every single year. Elite OBP maybe, but then again Fielder is hitting .268 this year and has a .405 OBP. I guess it depends on what you consider "good" and "decent."

I have no idea why you're trying to argue WAR is anything other than a counting stat. It is an attempt to measure actual player contributions over the course of the season. Like UZR can be displayed in terms of UZR/150, you could make a similar metric for WAR, but each of those have decided drawbacks. WAR is not supposed to be used as in indicator of future performance - there are many better metrics for that. 2010 MLB average BA is .259. I've seen standard deviations for BA estimated at .027. So this year I would consider anything in the neighborhood of .245 to .275 to be decent. And I meant to say its near impossible to sustain a good OBP without a decent BA. The league leader in BB% is Berkman at 16.2%, which allows him to post a good OBP (.361) despite a somewhat poor BA (.237) However, players with obviously poor BAs couldn't sustain a good OBP even with Berkman's exceedingly high BB%. Reynolds (13.2%, .214, .330) and Carlos Pena (14.6%, .212, .336) are merely able to get to average OBP despite all of their walks because of their poor batting averages.

 

[Norseman]

The Red Sox have placed a claim on Damon, to block the Rays from getting him.