Jordan Cameron to Seattle? Good fit? (1 Viewer)

[georg013]

Blah

 

[Hu-Tang Clan]

Do I like a completely speculative thread that means nothing? Not really.

 

[Tau837]

From Rotoworld:

NFL Network's Ian Rapoport reported in October that the Seahawks tried to acquire Jordan Cameron from the Browns in exchange for Percy Harvin.

After being denied by Browns GM Ray Farmer, the Seahawks then asked the Broncos if they'd be interested in a Julius Thomas-for-Harvin swap. Broncos GM John Elway didn't bite. Cameron and Thomas are now set to hit the free-agent market March 10, and the Seahawks are expected to cut TE Zach Miller. Cameron played for coach Pete Carroll at USC. He could come at a bargain price after each of his previous three seasons were marred by concussion issues. Feb 13 - 11:10 AM
Source: Ian Rapoport on Twitter

It would be an upgrade for Cameron and for the Seahawks. The Seahawks would save $3M on next year's cap by cutting Miller, so it wouldn't bump their cap much. And the Cameron-Carroll connection makes it an even better match.

 

[menobrown]

I'd love it because I don't own him anyplace.

Basically, every time I'm sitting on a free agent WR or TE I live in fear they sign with Seattle.

 

[Slapdash]

Mods should edit this title.

 

[identikit]

Mods should edit this title.

Yes.

Irresponsible.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Mods should edit this title.

Jordan Cameron to Seattle?

 

[-CE-]

I'd love it because I don't own him anyplace.

Basically, every time I'm sitting on a free agent WR or TE I live in fear they sign with Seattle.

It's nothing but a gut feeling, but I think as you see Russell Wilson get a bit older, you're going to see the offense evolve into more of a balanced/passing attack.

Before someone comes in (probably a Seattle fan) and says, "Seattle only ran the ball 53% of the time"... they ranked 27th in the passing game because of the play calling.

 

[adrenaline]

From one injury prone TE to another.

 

[georg013]

Mods should edit this title.

Yes.

Irresponsible.

Yellow journalism if you ask me.

 

[thatguy]

I think they'd be better off with JT.

If Russ throws that ball to JT at the end of the s Super Bowl it's a different outcome.

 

[Tau837]

I think they'd be better off with JT.

If Russ throws that ball to JT at the end of the s Super Bowl it's a different outcome.

But JT might be more expensive and doesn't have personal history with Carroll.

 

[thatguy]

I think they'd be better off with JT.

If Russ throws that ball to JT at the end of the s Super Bowl it's a different outcome.

But JT might be more expensive and doesn't have personal history with Carroll.

True. I just think a red zone target like JT would be huge for that offense.

 

[menobrown]

I'd love it because I don't own him anyplace.

Basically, every time I'm sitting on a free agent WR or TE I live in fear they sign with Seattle.

It's nothing but a gut feeling, but I think as you see Russell Wilson get a bit older, you're going to see the offense evolve into more of a balanced/passing attack.

Before someone comes in (probably a Seattle fan) and says, "Seattle only ran the ball 53% of the time"... they ranked 27th in the passing game because of the play calling.

I've heard that line of thinking quite often but I'm not buying into it. The implication seems to be as Wilson progresses they'll trust him to throw more. Trust is not the issue. The SB was a big give away to that, they have no trust issue with putting the ball in his hands at all.

If in fact they ever evolve into more of a balanced attack it will be because the defense has sunk a notch and they need to score more to compete and/or the running game can't get going. These things can happen at some point but in the meantime I view Seattle as the place fantasy WR's and TE's go to die.

 

[fridayfrenzy]

Until Seattle gets an OL that can actually pass block, an expensive pass catching TE is not a need. This year Seattle had to keep a blocking TE in the game quite a bit just to protect Wilson so there isn't much point to bringing in a receiving TE if Seattle always needs that TE to block.

OL, WR and DT are the Seattle needs IMO.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

From Rotoworld:

NFL Network's Ian Rapoport reported in October that the Seahawks tried to acquire Jordan Cameron from the Browns in exchange for Percy Harvin.

After being denied by Browns GM Ray Farmer, the Seahawks then asked the Broncos if they'd be interested in a Julius Thomas-for-Harvin swap. Broncos GM John Elway didn't bite. Cameron and Thomas are now set to hit the free-agent market March 10, and the Seahawks are expected to cut TE Zach Miller. Cameron played for coach Pete Carroll at USC. He could come at a bargain price after each of his previous three seasons were marred by concussion issues. Feb 13 - 11:10 AM
Source: Ian Rapoport on Twitter

It would be an upgrade for Cameron and for the Seahawks. The Seahawks would save $3M on next year's cap by cutting Miller, so it wouldn't bump their cap much. And the Cameron-Carroll connection makes it an even better match.

What are you talking about? Save money?

Jordan Cameron is an unrestricted free agent. The contract he played under isn't valid and its not what he will be playing for.

He was playing under his inexpensive rookie contract. He has made the Pro Bowl and has shown he has a valuable Pro Bowl TE skill set. He won't come cheap and highly doubt be getting less than Miller. I'm sure he will ask for much more.

Seattle wouldn't save any money but could expect to pay through the nose for a guy with durability issues.

 

[-CE-]

I'd love it because I don't own him anyplace.

Basically, every time I'm sitting on a free agent WR or TE I live in fear they sign with Seattle.

It's nothing but a gut feeling, but I think as you see Russell Wilson get a bit older, you're going to see the offense evolve into more of a balanced/passing attack.

Before someone comes in (probably a Seattle fan) and says, "Seattle only ran the ball 53% of the time"... they ranked 27th in the passing game because of the play calling.

I've heard that line of thinking quite often but I'm not buying into it. The implication seems to be as Wilson progresses they'll trust him to throw more. Trust is not the issue. The SB was a big give away to that, they have no trust issue with putting the ball in his hands at all.

If in fact they ever evolve into more of a balanced attack it will be because the defense has sunk a notch and they need to score more to compete and/or the running game can't get going. These things can happen at some point but in the meantime I view Seattle as the place fantasy WR's and TE's go to die.

What fantasy relevant WR or TE has died there in the last 5 years? Before you say "Harvin" just know that I don't consider that a single 87 catch, 967 yard, 6 TD season marks a WR as "fantasy relevant." Harvin was always the little engine that could, but never did, outside of a game here or a game there.

The Superbowl, where Russell Wilson passed 21 times was a give away to what? You know Tom Brady threw the ball 50 times in that game?

 

[menobrown]

I'd love it because I don't own him anyplace.

Basically, every time I'm sitting on a free agent WR or TE I live in fear they sign with Seattle.

It's nothing but a gut feeling, but I think as you see Russell Wilson get a bit older, you're going to see the offense evolve into more of a balanced/passing attack.

Before someone comes in (probably a Seattle fan) and says, "Seattle only ran the ball 53% of the time"... they ranked 27th in the passing game because of the play calling.

I've heard that line of thinking quite often but I'm not buying into it. The implication seems to be as Wilson progresses they'll trust him to throw more. Trust is not the issue. The SB was a big give away to that, they have no trust issue with putting the ball in his hands at all.

If in fact they ever evolve into more of a balanced attack it will be because the defense has sunk a notch and they need to score more to compete and/or the running game can't get going. These things can happen at some point but in the meantime I view Seattle as the place fantasy WR's and TE's go to die.

What fantasy relevant WR or TE has died there in the last 5 years? Before you say "Harvin" just know that I don't consider that a single 87 catch, 967 yard, 6 TD season marks a WR as "fantasy relevant." Harvin was always the little engine that could, but never did, outside of a game here or a game there.

The Superbowl, where Russell Wilson passed 21 times was a give away to what? You know Tom Brady threw the ball 50 times in that game?

You can't just discount Harvin so I'm going to say him. He went there, he died.

Zach Miller went there, he died.

Golden Tate left, he pulled a Lazarus.

Since Wilson took over, and I've have to go look but this might applicable to since when Carroll took over, the highest targets anyone has got in a year was Baldwins 98 this season and part of that had to do with lack of other options but as is it's pretty weak.

 

[skol asylum]

Harvin wasn't even the first good Minnesota receiver to go belly up in Seattle. Sidney Rice once had promise too.

 

[lsutigers]

What fantasy relevant WR or TE has died there in the last 5 years?

Zach Miller says hi. He was trending towards relevance.

 

[Tau837]

From Rotoworld:

NFL Network's Ian Rapoport reported in October that the Seahawks tried to acquire Jordan Cameron from the Browns in exchange for Percy Harvin.

After being denied by Browns GM Ray Farmer, the Seahawks then asked the Broncos if they'd be interested in a Julius Thomas-for-Harvin swap. Broncos GM John Elway didn't bite. Cameron and Thomas are now set to hit the free-agent market March 10, and the Seahawks are expected to cut TE Zach Miller. Cameron played for coach Pete Carroll at USC. He could come at a bargain price after each of his previous three seasons were marred by concussion issues. Feb 13 - 11:10 AM
Source: Ian Rapoport on Twitter

It would be an upgrade for Cameron and for the Seahawks. The Seahawks would save $3M on next year's cap by cutting Miller, so it wouldn't bump their cap much. And the Cameron-Carroll connection makes it an even better match.

What are you talking about? Save money?

Jordan Cameron is an unrestricted free agent. The contract he played under isn't valid and its not what he will be playing for.

He was playing under his inexpensive rookie contract. He has made the Pro Bowl and has shown he has a valuable Pro Bowl TE skill set. He won't come cheap and highly doubt be getting less than Miller. I'm sure he will ask for much more.

Seattle wouldn't save any money but could expect to pay through the nose for a guy with durability issues.

I said it would bump their cap, but not by much. Because they would save $3M in 2015 by cutting Miller. Hint: that means I'm saying Cameron will make more than Miller, but not a lot more.

What do you expect Cameron's cap number to be in 2015?

 

[Hankmoody]

I'd love it because I don't own him anyplace.

Basically, every time I'm sitting on a free agent WR or TE I live in fear they sign with Seattle.

It's nothing but a gut feeling, but I think as you see Russell Wilson get a bit older, you're going to see the offense evolve into more of a balanced/passing attack.

Before someone comes in (probably a Seattle fan) and says, "Seattle only ran the ball 53% of the time"... they ranked 27th in the passing game because of the play calling.

I've heard that line of thinking quite often but I'm not buying into it. The implication seems to be as Wilson progresses they'll trust him to throw more. Trust is not the issue. The SB was a big give away to that, they have no trust issue with putting the ball in his hands at all.

If in fact they ever evolve into more of a balanced attack it will be because the defense has sunk a notch and they need to score more to compete and/or the running game can't get going. These things can happen at some point but in the meantime I view Seattle as the place fantasy WR's and TE's go to die.

It won't be out of trust, it will be out of necessity. When they have to pay him, they are going to HAVE to put more on his shoulders because there will be no Marshawn Lynch, no star-studded defense filled with cheap players on rookie deals, no veterans taking pay cuts to play for that elite team. Wilson's deal will soon be a huge chunk of their cap and there isn't going to be enough money to stock the roster like it currently is. They are going to have to go the route that Baltimore, Atlanta, Chicago, NYG, SDC, NOS, IND/DEN, and most others have - pay the QB a truckload, get him a few weapons, and hope for the best. GBP have handled it probably the best and that's because they keep finding quality cheap (rookie) players that contribute and DEN was primed to make the move for Manning with DT, JT, and the RB's all having some years on cheap rookie deals.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

From Rotoworld:

NFL Network's Ian Rapoport reported in October that the Seahawks tried to acquire Jordan Cameron from the Browns in exchange for Percy Harvin.

After being denied by Browns GM Ray Farmer, the Seahawks then asked the Broncos if they'd be interested in a Julius Thomas-for-Harvin swap. Broncos GM John Elway didn't bite. Cameron and Thomas are now set to hit the free-agent market March 10, and the Seahawks are expected to cut TE Zach Miller. Cameron played for coach Pete Carroll at USC. He could come at a bargain price after each of his previous three seasons were marred by concussion issues. Feb 13 - 11:10 AM
Source: Ian Rapoport on Twitter

It would be an upgrade for Cameron and for the Seahawks. The Seahawks would save $3M on next year's cap by cutting Miller, so it wouldn't bump their cap much. And the Cameron-Carroll connection makes it an even better match.

What are you talking about? Save money?

Jordan Cameron is an unrestricted free agent. The contract he played under isn't valid and its not what he will be playing for.

He was playing under his inexpensive rookie contract. He has made the Pro Bowl and has shown he has a valuable Pro Bowl TE skill set. He won't come cheap and highly doubt be getting less than Miller. I'm sure he will ask for much more.

Seattle wouldn't save any money but could expect to pay through the nose for a guy with durability issues.

I said it would bump their cap, but not by much. Because they would save $3M in 2015 by cutting Miller. Hint: that means I'm saying Cameron will make more than Miller, but not a lot more.

What do you expect Cameron's cap number to be in 2015?

Here's a hint that comes directly from Jordan Cameron on what he expects to earn.

Jimmy Graham got tagged by the Saints as a TE but he tried to fight it because the franchise tag for TEs is $7 million per year while the franchise tag for WRs is $12 million per year. Graham lost his fight but the Saints did wind up paying more than the franchise TE number to Jimmy so expect Jordan Cameron to be seeking over $7 per year minimum since he changed his Twitter handle from Pro Bowl TE to Pro Bowl PASS CATCHER for the Cleveland Browns.

He didn't think anyone would notice but it caused quite a stir.

So 'minimum' he's going to expect is franchise TE money which was $7 million annually but that was last year before Jimmy Graham signed his extension that paid him $40 million over 4 years with $21 million guaranteed up front.

Oh but that isn't the end of it. After Graham got his huge payday San Francisco TE Vernon Davis carped and got his own extension of five years but he got more guaranteed money up front, $23 million.

Graham is making $10 million per year which would place him 7th on the WR pay list.

The price of Pro Bowl TEs is currently going through the roof.

http://www.waitingfornextyear.com/2014/07/jordan-cameron-changes-twitter-profile-after-jimmy-graham-ruling/

Jordan Cameron changes Twitter profile after Jimmy Graham ruling

One of the issues regarding Jimmy Graham’s fight with the Saints over whether he is a receiver or not had to do with him self-identifying as a tight end on his Twitter profile. I don’t know how much that factored into the fact that he was ultimately ruled a tight end, but Jordan Cameron decided not to take any chances.

Yesterday he changed his twitter profile to read “Pro Bowl pass catcher for the Browns”

Now, it’s easy for me to call it silly because I wasn’t the one who had $5.3 million on the line like Jimmy Graham did — wide receiver franchise tags go for just over $12 million and tight ends go for just over $7 mil. Still, I do think it’s silly. Jimmy Graham is a tight end. He’s one of the trailblazing tight ends with the ability to re-define the position and yes, his franchise tender amount is wildly low for a player of his production. The mere fact that he’s deserving of a lot more money, however, doesn’t make him a wide receiver.

Nor does Jordan Cameron’s desire for more money — even money comparable to a top wide receiver — make him a wide receiver. I think both players should be rewarded for their production and get contracts commensurate with their value, but gaming the system and pretending that these tight ends are actually wide receivers is just insulting intellectually.

If the game continues to evolve this way, they should get their union to negotiate the next collective bargaining agreement to put all pass-catchers — tight ends and wide receivers — in the same class for the rules of the franchise tag. That’s the way the offensive line works already where they don’t delineate between left tackles, centers or guards.

 

[FUBAR]

Of the free agent tight ends, I'm guessing charles clay will be the best value. By far. I'd rather have him than Cameron anyway and he'll probably be cheaper.

 

[lod01]

Cameron would be smart to sign with Atlanta.

 

[FUBAR]

Cameron would be smart to sign with Atlanta.

Why? He wants to Win.

 

[massraider]

From Rotoworld:

NFL Network's Ian Rapoport reported in October that the Seahawks tried to acquire Jordan Cameron from the Browns in exchange for Percy Harvin.

After being denied by Browns GM Ray Farmer, the Seahawks then asked the Broncos if they'd be interested in a Julius Thomas-for-Harvin swap. Broncos GM John Elway didn't bite. Cameron and Thomas are now set to hit the free-agent market March 10, and the Seahawks are expected to cut TE Zach Miller. Cameron played for coach Pete Carroll at USC. He could come at a bargain price after each of his previous three seasons were marred by concussion issues. Feb 13 - 11:10 AM
Source: Ian Rapoport on Twitter

It would be an upgrade for Cameron and for the Seahawks. The Seahawks would save $3M on next year's cap by cutting Miller, so it wouldn't bump their cap much. And the Cameron-Carroll connection makes it an even better match.

What are you talking about? Save money?

Jordan Cameron is an unrestricted free agent. The contract he played under isn't valid and its not what he will be playing for.

He was playing under his inexpensive rookie contract. He has made the Pro Bowl and has shown he has a valuable Pro Bowl TE skill set. He won't come cheap and highly doubt be getting less than Miller. I'm sure he will ask for much more.

Seattle wouldn't save any money but could expect to pay through the nose for a guy with durability issues.

I said it would bump their cap, but not by much. Because they would save $3M in 2015 by cutting Miller. Hint: that means I'm saying Cameron will make more than Miller, but not a lot more.

What do you expect Cameron's cap number to be in 2015?

Here's a hint that comes directly from Jordan Cameron on what he expects to earn.

Jimmy Graham got tagged by the Saints as a TE but he tried to fight it because the franchise tag for TEs is $7 million per year while the franchise tag for WRs is $12 million per year. Graham lost his fight but the Saints did wind up paying more than the franchise TE number to Jimmy so expect Jordan Cameron to be seeking over $7 per year minimum since he changed his Twitter handle from Pro Bowl TE to Pro Bowl PASS CATCHER for the Cleveland Browns.

He didn't think anyone would notice but it caused quite a stir.

So 'minimum' he's going to expect is franchise TE money which was $7 million annually but that was last year before Jimmy Graham signed his extension that paid him $40 million over 4 years with $21 million guaranteed up front.

Oh but that isn't the end of it. After Graham got his huge payday San Francisco TE Vernon Davis carped and got his own extension of five years but he got more guaranteed money up front, $23 million.

Graham is making $10 million per year which would place him 7th on the WR pay list.

The price of Pro Bowl TEs is currently going through the roof.

http://www.waitingfornextyear.com/2014/07/jordan-cameron-changes-twitter-profile-after-jimmy-graham-ruling/

Jordan Cameron changes Twitter profile after Jimmy Graham ruling

One of the issues regarding Jimmy Graham’s fight with the Saints over whether he is a receiver or not had to do with him self-identifying as a tight end on his Twitter profile. I don’t know how much that factored into the fact that he was ultimately ruled a tight end, but Jordan Cameron decided not to take any chances.

Yesterday he changed his twitter profile to read “Pro Bowl pass catcher for the Browns”

Now, it’s easy for me to call it silly because I wasn’t the one who had $5.3 million on the line like Jimmy Graham did — wide receiver franchise tags go for just over $12 million and tight ends go for just over $7 mil. Still, I do think it’s silly. Jimmy Graham is a tight end. He’s one of the trailblazing tight ends with the ability to re-define the position and yes, his franchise tender amount is wildly low for a player of his production. The mere fact that he’s deserving of a lot more money, however, doesn’t make him a wide receiver.

Nor does Jordan Cameron’s desire for more money — even money comparable to a top wide receiver — make him a wide receiver. I think both players should be rewarded for their production and get contracts commensurate with their value, but gaming the system and pretending that these tight ends are actually wide receivers is just insulting intellectually.

If the game continues to evolve this way, they should get their union to negotiate the next collective bargaining agreement to put all pass-catchers — tight ends and wide receivers — in the same class for the rules of the franchise tag. That’s the way the offensive line works already where they don’t delineate between left tackles, centers or guards.

The variable is the concussions. I am really interested in his next contract structure.

 

[lod01]

Cameron would be smart to sign with Atlanta.

Why? He wants to Win.

Does he? Or does he want a long high paying career. A top TE in ATL will stay there for as much as a decade. In Seattle, they would figure out after 2 years that they are over paying for a guy they are not using.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

TE Jordan Cameron has indicated he expects a huge payday since he refused to sign an extension with the Browns last year as he eyed his chance to cash in.

His plans to his big payday were rudely interrupted as Jordan came into the season with shoulder injury that he aggravated that in the first game (1 game missed). After that set back he had his third concussion in October (5 games missed). He was only expected to miss two games but the concussion was much more serious than originally thought and he wound up missing five games.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2014/10/cleveland_browns_jordan_camero_5.html

Cleveland Browns' Jordan Cameron's status uncertain after suffering 3rd concussion in less than two yearsPBEREA, Ohio -- Browns tight end Jordan Cameron suffered his third concussion in less than two years, and his status for the next two games is uncertain.either...

...It marked Cameron's third concussion since December of 2012 - one in each of the past three seasons.

He sat out the New York Jets game in week 15 last season after suffering a concussion late in the Bears game the week before, and missed the final two games of the 2012 season with a concussion. In the case of last year's brain injury, he didn't realize he had suffered it until the morning after, meaning he may have inadvertently continued playing with it.

After Ross' blow to the head midway through the second quarter of Sunday's 23-13 victory over the Raiders, Cameron walked off the field gingerly and underwent a neurological exam on the sidelines. Within minutes, he walked to the locker room, where his third concussion was confirmed.

The Browns, the NFL and Cameron will take the concussion very seriously, because multiple blows to the head can lead to long-term brain damage, including a degenerative brain disease called chronic traumatic encephalopathy.

Cameron has also missed games with broken ribs and he also missed 8 games with a hamstring issue his first year in previous seasons.

All in all, over four years he's missed a grand total of 18 games over 4 years. That's more than one full season.

I think the Browns were prepared to give him a nice boost in salary to make him one of the highest priced TEs but he got greedy when Jimmy Graham contested his standing but it went wrong for him. I think the Browns re-approached him but weren't going to give him what he wanted due to his injury history. I'm not sure he will get what he wants but I don't expect him to come cheaply no matter where he signs.

 

[Tau837]

^LOL at comparing Cameron to Graham.

Even so, Graham's cap number on the first year of his contract was $4M. Which supports my point that Seattle could cut Miller, sign Cameron, and not bump their cap by much ($1M).

 

[Bracie Smathers]

^LOL at comparing Cameron to Graham.

Even so, Graham's cap number on the first year of his contract was $4M. Which supports my point that Seattle could cut Miller, sign Cameron, and not bump their cap by much ($1M).

The Saints have the worst cap number in the entire NFL -$27,901,879 which is far and away the worst of any team. The next worse is the Cardinals at -$11,510,032. The third worst is San Francisco at -$6,666,944. Two of those teams paid huge contract extensions to their TEs.

You think Jordan Cameron will only count $1 million over what you paid Miller?

 

[Tau837]

^LOL at comparing Cameron to Graham.

Even so, Graham's cap number on the first year of his contract was $4M. Which supports my point that Seattle could cut Miller, sign Cameron, and not bump their cap by much ($1M).

The Saints have the worst cap number in the entire NFL -$27,901,879 which is far and away the worst of any team. The next worse is the Cardinals at -$11,510,032. The third worst is San Francisco at -$6,666,944. Two of those teams paid huge contract extensions to their TEs.You think Jordan Cameron will only count $1 million over what you paid Miller?

Fact: in the first year of his new contract, Graham's cap number was $4M.

Fact: If the Seahawks cut Miller, they will save $3M on their 2015 cap.

Opinion: Cameron is not as good as Graham and will not get a contract worth as much as Graham's.

Draw your own conclusions.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

You think the Seahawks will get a savings by cutting Miller and only have to pay $1 million more by signing Jordan Cameron. You also seem to think the Saints contract with Jimmy Graham was not set up to provide minimal damage up front with the $21 million guarantee over 4 years but the cost on the books when they are nearly $28 million over the cap had no bearing on how that deal was structured.

Everyone should draw their own conclusions and the best conclusions are based on being open to all information.

So of your facts. First you have disregarded how the contract was structured and the guaranteed money up front. Second I have never disputed how much the Hawks save by cutting Miller. Third I never said Cameron was better than Graham.

The only information you provide concerns the money saved by cutting Miller. Sorry but you never brought forth one thing to dispute how much Jordan Cameron would ask and how much he'd reasonably get. And you really don't seem to grasp how much Jimmy Graham will be paid if you only see the $4 cap hit in 2015 and trust me I'm not a cap expert but I know you aren't.

 

[Tau837]

You think the Seahawks will get a savings by cutting Miller and only have to pay $1 million more by signing Jordan Cameron. You also seem to think the Saints contract with Jimmy Graham was not set up to provide minimal damage up front with the $21 million guarantee over 4 years but the cost on the books when they are nearly $28 million over the cap had no bearing on how that deal was structured.

Everyone should draw their own conclusions and the best conclusions are based on being open to all information.

So of your facts. First you have disregarded how the contract was structured and the guaranteed money up front. Second I have never disputed how much the Hawks save by cutting Miller. Third I never said Cameron was better than Graham.

The only information you provide concerns the money saved by cutting Miller. Sorry but you never brought forth one thing to dispute how much Jordan Cameron would ask and how much he'd reasonably get. And you really don't seem to grasp how much Jimmy Graham will be paid if you only see the $4 cap hit in 2015 and trust me I'm not a cap expert but I know you aren't.

My first post was about cap savings next season. I haven't been posting about the full duration of the contract. Of course I know Graham will make more in later years.

But considering that Cameron won't likely make Graham money and Miller's cap figure is $4M in 2015, they likely wouldn't increase their cap by much in succeeding seasons either. Maybe by $2-3M on average.

What do you expect Cameron's contract to average per year? Based on your comments so far, I'm pretty sure I will take the under.

 

[rockaction]

Cameron would be smart to sign with Atlanta.

Why? He wants to Win.

Because Matt Ryan and Gonzalez feasted together with White, Jones, and Douglas commanding the opposition's attention. And Atlanta almost made the playoffs this year, didn't they? Plus, they should be getting a bunch of guys back this year.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

You think the Seahawks will get a savings by cutting Miller and only have to pay $1 million more by signing Jordan Cameron. You also seem to think the Saints contract with Jimmy Graham was not set up to provide minimal damage up front with the $21 million guarantee over 4 years but the cost on the books when they are nearly $28 million over the cap had no bearing on how that deal was structured.

Everyone should draw their own conclusions and the best conclusions are based on being open to all information.

So of your facts. First you have disregarded how the contract was structured and the guaranteed money up front. Second I have never disputed how much the Hawks save by cutting Miller. Third I never said Cameron was better than Graham.

The only information you provide concerns the money saved by cutting Miller. Sorry but you never brought forth one thing to dispute how much Jordan Cameron would ask and how much he'd reasonably get. And you really don't seem to grasp how much Jimmy Graham will be paid if you only see the $4 cap hit in 2015 and trust me I'm not a cap expert but I know you aren't.

My first post was about cap savings next season. I haven't been posting about the full duration of the contract. Of course I know Graham will make more in later years.

But considering that Cameron won't likely make Graham money and Miller's cap figure is $4M in 2015, they likely wouldn't increase their cap by much in succeeding seasons either. Maybe by $2-3M on average.

What do you expect Cameron's contract to average per year? Based on your comments so far, I'm pretty sure I will take the under.

One thing is certain, we would disagree on what he'd ask and what he will eventually receive.

I even question the speculation that Cameron is bound for Seattle is accurate.

Too many jump to conclusions based off of inaccurate information.

The original reports of Cameron wanting out of Cleveland weren't accurate from the start.

Cleveland holds the second most cap room and their hasn't been any credible sources that have proven he wants out.

Makes much more sense for him to make his payday in Cleveland since the Browns have the room to fit him under their cap.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/02/jimmy_haslam_doesnt_expect_cle.html

....The Browns carry over the NFL's second-most cap space ($18,909,288) behind only the Jaguars ($21,768,205), according to the NFL Players Association.

...Haslam thinks reports of Cameron not wanting to return to Cleveland are inaccurate.

 

[Hooper31]

For me this is a good example of people confusing fantasy football with real football. Seattle doesn't need a receiving TE, they need a blocking TE.

 

[cstu]

The original reports of Cameron wanting out of Cleveland weren't accurate from the start.

Who in their right mind wants to stay in Cleveland?

 

[Donnybrook]

Cameron would be smart to sign with Atlanta.

Atlanta would be smart to sign Lance Kendricks and spend their cap money on improving the defense.

 

[medstudent]

^LOL at comparing Cameron to Graham.

Even so, Graham's cap number on the first year of his contract was $4M. Which supports my point that Seattle could cut Miller, sign Cameron, and not bump their cap by much ($1M).

The Saints have the worst cap number in the entire NFL -$27,901,879 which is far and away the worst of any team. The next worse is the Cardinals at -$11,510,032. The third worst is San Francisco at -$6,666,944. Two of those teams paid huge contract extensions to their TEs.You think Jordan Cameron will only count $1 million over what you paid Miller?

Fact: in the first year of his new contract, Graham's cap number was $4M.

Fact: If the Seahawks cut Miller, they will save $3M on their 2015 cap.

Opinion: Cameron is not as good as Graham and will not get a contract worth as much as Graham's.

Draw your own conclusions.

1 million of Millers cap number is prorated bonus money that would still count agaianst the cap. They would save a little over 2 million a year in cap money by cutting Miller.

 

[32 Counter Pass]

In response to the op: not at this time. Sure Seattle could evolve into a passing team, but I will avoid Seahawk the WR and TE position until I see evidence of said evolution.

 

[Tau837]

^LOL at comparing Cameron to Graham.

Even so, Graham's cap number on the first year of his contract was $4M. Which supports my point that Seattle could cut Miller, sign Cameron, and not bump their cap by much ($1M).

The Saints have the worst cap number in the entire NFL -$27,901,879 which is far and away the worst of any team. The next worse is the Cardinals at -$11,510,032. The third worst is San Francisco at -$6,666,944. Two of those teams paid huge contract extensions to their TEs.You think Jordan Cameron will only count $1 million over what you paid Miller?

Fact: in the first year of his new contract, Graham's cap number was $4M.Fact: If the Seahawks cut Miller, they will save $3M on their 2015 cap.

Opinion: Cameron is not as good as Graham and will not get a contract worth as much as Graham's.

Draw your own conclusions.

1 million of Millers cap number is prorated bonus money that would still count agaianst the cap. They would save a little over 2 million a year in cap money by cutting Miller.

Miller's cap figure for 2015 is $4M, which includes $1M in dead money and $3M in salary. So they would save $3M in 2015 by cutting him. 2015 is the last year of his contract.

 

[Tau837]

For me this is a good example of people confusing fantasy football with real football. Seattle doesn't need a receiving TE, they need a blocking TE.

Seattle needs better blocking and better targets. There are multiple ways to solve both needs. One way is a better OL and a receiving TE.

Why is it that you think Seattle inquired about trading for Cameron and Julius Thomas last season if they don't need a good receiving TE?

 

[Hooper31]

Why is it that you think Seattle inquired about trading for Cameron and Julius Thomas last season if they don't need a good receiving TE?

Good question. Unless its coming from Schneider's mouth I don't believe it, but they did need a warm body to play TE. Further, because someone in the media speculated about it doesn't mean its true. They lost Miller and needed a TE. Hell, they brought in Moeki. Pretty sure they would have taken any name TE in trade to replace Miller for the season.

If Seattle had turned that 90% win probability with one play to go would people be speculating that Seattle needed better targets? I have my doubts. IMO the loss of Miller hurt the offense more than the overall lack of receiving targets.

Are we seeing enough of a change in the league with regard to WRs? Are they just not that necessary? Neither SEA or NE has any star power at the WR position. Curious to see what impact this has on the big names receivers in free agency,

 

[FUBAR]

Why is it that you think Seattle inquired about trading for Cameron and Julius Thomas last season if they don't need a good receiving TE?

They were offering Percy Harvin. Not exactly giving a lot.

 

[Tau837]

If Seattle had turned that 90% win probability with one play to go would people be speculating that Seattle needed better targets?

Yes, absolutely. The quality of their passing game suffered this year due to several factors:

- Loss of Tate to free agency

- Failure of Harvin to emerge before trade (whether due to poor usage or his own poor performance)

- Failure of Richardson or Norwood to really emerge; Richardson was starting to do that late, before his injury

- Loss of Miller to injury

Going forward, Tate and Harvin are still gone. Miller could be back. Richardson will be back, but likely not fully recovered from his injury until 2016. I suppose Norwood could emerge. Is the team willing to rest on this? I don't know, but I don't think they should be.

I know Seattle has been very successful with an approach that is very reliant on strong running and strong defense. Does that mean the team is content to have a set of targets that are among the very worst in the NFL? Since when have Carroll and Schneider been content in accepting mediocrity or worse in any aspect of the team?

IMO the loss of Miller hurt the offense more than the overall lack of receiving targets.

In what way? In the passing game or running game? I don't believe the evidence shows this to be true, but I'm interested in your take.

Are we seeing enough of a change in the league with regard to WRs? Are they just not that necessary? Neither SEA or NE has any star power at the WR position. Curious to see what impact this has on the big names receivers in free agency,

Why are you narrowing this down to WRs instead of all targets, especially when the discussion in this thread is mainly about TEs? New England has Gronkowski, the best TE in football. Seattle has nothing comparable.

 

[Tau837]

Why is it that you think Seattle inquired about trading for Cameron and Julius Thomas last season if they don't need a good receiving TE?

They were offering Percy Harvin. Not exactly giving a lot.

So? I didn't say those teams should have made the trades. I asked why Seattle was targeting receiving TEs if they really didn't need one as was claimed here.

I mean, since the loss of Miller really hurt them most due to his blocking, and the team felt that was thus their biggest area of need, why weren't they offering Harvin for blocking TEs?

 

[Tau837]

By the way, I have made it clear I think Seattle needs better targets. And I want to make it clear that has nothing to do with confusing real football with fantasy football. It has to do with watching every Seahawks game this season.

 

[Bad_Mo]

Seahawks should focus on defense...someone who can cover elite TEs. NE made the vaunted SEA defense look like swiss cheese in the SB.

 

[Freelove]

Seahawks should focus on defense...someone who can cover elite TEs. NE made the vaunted SEA defense look like swiss cheese in the SB.

They have someone who can cover elite TE's. Hell, they have the best cover S I've ever seen. But they run a scheme that necessitates he help the corners to shut down the two primary receiving targets, while the other 8 guys create one of the best run-stuffing defenses in the league. That's what makes their defense so deadly -- that they can shut down 90% of NFL passing offenses with three guys in coverage.

Giving up plays to elite TE's is a choice that they can afford to make because only a couple teams in the NFL have them, and even fewer than that have QB's and receivers that are dangerous enough to free them up.

No defense can stop everything.

The best they could do on that front is look to replace Chancellor with a better coverage SS, but I don't think that would make their defense better against the league as a whole. Chancellor's ability to play that LB/SS hybrid spot is one of the things that makes that D thrive.