Jordan's Bulls vs the Warriors of the past 3 years (1 Viewer)

[Henry Ford]

And just to jump start the discussion, here's a 2002 article about Michael Jordan with the Wizards fighting off a defensive switch to sink a game winning shot.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

I know this is about the Warriors but what about how the Bulls compare to the Cavs who GS is generally considered to be better than?

I only mention them because Jordan was such a massive part of those Bulls teams and the Cavs nearly cancel that part out with LeBron.  Even if Jordan is still the GOAT, LeBron is at least in the same tier and we're talking about two guys that play very similarly.

So if Jordan and LeBron roughly cancel each other out how does the rest of the Bulls team compare to the rest of the Cavs team?  Pippen was a good player but how does he compare to Kyrie?

 

[Charlie Harper]

Arvyad Sabonis was a 6'11" center, dominated in the paint, and shot 33% from the 3-point line for his career.

Are you really set on NBA Sabonis = Draymond Green? 

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

What the hell are you talking about?

I'm poking some fun at the people who are acting as if players from the 1990s would freak the #### out and wouldn't know what to do if a 6'7" forward moved out beyond the three-point line on offense.   

 

[Charlie Harper]

I know this is about the Warriors but what about how the Bulls compare to the Cavs who GS is generally considered to be better than?

I only mention them because Jordan was such a massive part of those Bulls teams and the Cavs nearly cancel that part out with LeBron.  Even if Jordan is still the GOAT, LeBron is at least in the same tier and we're talking about two guys that play very similarly.

So if Jordan and LeBron roughly cancel each other out how does the rest of the Bulls team compare to the rest of the Cavs team?  Pippen was a good player but how does he compare to Kyrie?

Pippen >>>>>>Kyrie.

 

[Charlie Harper]

I'm poking some fun at the people who are acting as if players from the 1990s would freak the #### out and wouldn't know what to do if a 6'7" forward moved out beyond the three-point line on offense.   

Didn't say he wouldn't know what to do, but it would neuter Rodman's rebounding a bit since he's not just camping near the paint.

 

[Henry Ford]

Are you really set on NBA Sabonis = Draymond Green? 

Equals?  Absolutely not.  I hope you understand what I mean by that.

 

[Henry Ford]

I'm poking some fun at the people who are acting as if players from the 1990s would freak the #### out and wouldn't know what to do if a 6'7" forward moved out beyond the three-point line on offense.   

Ah.  Gotcha.

 

[Henry Ford]

I know this is about the Warriors but what about how the Bulls compare to the Cavs who GS is generally considered to be better than?

I only mention them because Jordan was such a massive part of those Bulls teams and the Cavs nearly cancel that part out with LeBron.  Even if Jordan is still the GOAT, LeBron is at least in the same tier and we're talking about two guys that play very similarly.

So if Jordan and LeBron roughly cancel each other out how does the rest of the Bulls team compare to the rest of the Cavs team?  Pippen was a good player but how does he compare to Kyrie?

Kevin Love would be crying and clutching various parts of his body for a minimum of ten minutes per game against Rodman.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

I'm poking some fun at the people who are acting as if players from the 1990s would freak the #### out and wouldn't know what to do if a 6'7" forward moved out beyond the three-point line on offense.   

Which is fair, but equally as silly as people acting as if Steph Curry is going to shoot 6% from the 3 point line if people were allowed to hand check him.

ETA: And literally posting this at the same moment a post goes up about Kevin Love crying if he had to play in the 90's, where apparently basketball used Rugby rules.

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

Pippen >>>>>>Kyrie.

Yeah, Pippen would be the 3rd best player. I think Love would be the 5th best.

 

[Henry Ford]

Didn't say he wouldn't know what to do, but it would neuter Rodman's rebounding a bit since he's not just camping near the paint.

That's utterly ridiculous.  Rodman guarded a number of guys who were spectacular outside shooters and passers throughout his career and averaged over 13 rpg for his career.

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

Which is fair, but equally as silly as people acting as if Steph Curry is going to shoot 6% from the 3 point line if people were allowed to hand check him.

Oh yeah that is ridiculous.  The bigger barrier for Curry back them would be finding a coach willing to install so much horizontal movement so far away from the basket to create open three-pointers.  Back then teams relied on dumping it into the post, standing still in strategic spots to force defenders to comply with illegal defense rules, then when the defense cracked and doubled the post, whipped the ball around to beat rotations and get an open shot.  You hardly ever saw three players 25 feet from the basket moving around and working together to get an open three, unless the team was trailing in the last minute and desperately needed a three to stay in the game.

 

[Charlie Harper]

That's utterly ridiculous.  Rodman guarded a number of guys who were spectacular outside shooters and passers throughout his career and averaged over 13 rpg for his career.

Fair enough. So is Rodman's rebounding the difference in a matchup of these two teams? I think it helps, but not enough to close the gap on the 3s.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Shout out to everyone's favorite Nazi war predictor @Riversco for starting this baby up during the layoff before the Finals, BTW.  Got a little bit of everything in here. High level analysis, fandom, fond memories of teams and players from our childhoods, and old man talk about how everyone was much tougher and better back in the day. 

 

[Charlie Harper]

Oh yeah that is ridiculous.  The bigger barrier for Curry back them would be finding a coach willing to install so much horizontal movement so far away from the basket to create open three-pointers.  Back then teams relied on dumping it into the post, standing still in strategic spots to force defenders to comply with illegal defense rules, then when the defense cracked and doubled the post, whipped the ball around to beat rotations and get an open shot.  You hardly ever saw three players 25 feet from the basket moving around and working together to get an open three, unless the team was trailing in the last minute and desperately needed a three to stay in the game.

Reggie Miller got as high as 6.6 3PA per game without ever having to dribble the ball and he didn't have the off the dribble 3 that Curry has. 

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

Fair enough. So is Rodman's rebounding the difference in a matchup of these two teams? I think it helps, but not enough to close the gap on the 3s.

The unique challenge the 96 Bulls present that other teams from that era don't are three first-team All-Defense players in the starting five.  The Harper-Jordan-Pippen 1-2-3 combo was a unique blend of interchangeable quickness and length no other team from the era had, and Rodman was the best defender on the team.  Curry would have to shoot over a taller defender with long arms.  Thompson wouldn't have a size advantage. 

 

[Henry Ford]

Fair enough. So is Rodman's rebounding the difference in a matchup of these two teams? I think it helps, but not enough to close the gap on the 3s.

It's a difference.  Conditioning and endurance is another.  It's all well and good to say it would be close when the Golden State and Bulls starters are all on the court, but there isn't a single player on the Golden State team that's even averaged 35 minutes per game for the playoffs or regular season this year.  Pippen and Jordan were always on the floor.  And when other teams' starters went out and the Bulls' utility players went in around Pippen and Jordan, they'd go on a scoring spree. 

Golden State would also be up against a much more physical and exhausting team than they deal with regularly.  

 

[Henry Ford]

The unique challenge the 96 Bulls present that other teams from that era don't are three first-team All-Defense players in the starting five.  The Harper-Jordan-Pippen 1-2-3 combo was a unique blend of interchangeable quickness and length no other team from the era had, and Rodman was the best defender on the team.  Curry would have to shoot over a taller defender with long arms.  Thompson wouldn't have a size advantage. 

And, assuming it's Jordan, about a foot higher vertical.

 

[matuski]

And, assuming it's Jordan, about a foot higher vertical.

And one that can be physical/hand check out away from the basket.

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

Reggie Miller got as high as 6.6 3PA per game without ever having to dribble the ball and he didn't have the off the dribble 3 that Curry has. 

Can we at least acknowledge that 6.6 is almost two full attempts above his career average?  For a 39-43 team?  And that put him at the top for makes and third in attempts for that year when it would be down in Trevor Ariza territory today?  And that I've said Curry would have a lot of 30-point games had he played in the 90s?

 

[matuski]

I feel like you guys are doing Kukoc a huge disservice by not giving him a role in this magical matchup in your minds.

The 1996 6th Man of the Year deserves more respect.

 

[TobiasFunke]

It's a difference.  Conditioning and endurance is another.  It's all well and good to say it would be close when the Golden State and Bulls starters are all on the court, but there isn't a single player on the Golden State team that's even averaged 35 minutes per game for the playoffs or regular season this year.  Pippen and Jordan were always on the floor.  And when other teams' starters went out and the Bulls' utility players went in around Pippen and Jordan, they'd go on a scoring spree. 

Golden State would also be up against a much more physical and exhausting team than they deal with regularly.  

This is backwards.  The Warriors players play fewer minutes because progress in tracking and assessing performance made it clear that players perform better at the end of the game/season If their minutes are managed and they take games off during the regular season. One of many, many advancements over the last 20 years that would give the Warriors a massive edge.

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

This is backwards.  The Warriors players play fewer minutes because progress in tracking and assessing performance made it clear that players perform better at the end of the game/season If their minutes are managed and they take games off during the regular season. One of many, many advancements over the last 20 years that would give the Warriors a massive edge.

How does the thing where Kerr deliberately loses Game 3s of playoff series fit in to this?

 

[Henry Ford]

This is backwards.  The Warriors players play fewer minutes because progress in tracking and assessing performance made it clear that players perform better at the end of the game/season If their minutes are managed and they take games off during the regular season. One of many, many advancements over the last 20 years that would give the Warriors a massive edge.

I thought we were talking about the end of the season.  Jordan was only on the court for 37 minutes a game during the regular season - same as LeBron these days.  Playoffs that went up to almost 41.  Playoffs are the end of the season.  And at the end of the season, Jordan in his prime was better and in better condition than any other time during the year, and than any player I can think of since not named LeBron or Rip Hamilton.. 

 

[Tau837]

I know this is about the Warriors but what about how the Bulls compare to the Cavs who GS is generally considered to be better than?

I only mention them because Jordan was such a massive part of those Bulls teams and the Cavs nearly cancel that part out with LeBron.  Even if Jordan is still the GOAT, LeBron is at least in the same tier and we're talking about two guys that play very similarly.

So if Jordan and LeBron roughly cancel each other out how does the rest of the Bulls team compare to the rest of the Cavs team?  Pippen was a good player but how does he compare to Kyrie?

@Riversco created a thread for that too: Jordan's Bulls vs the Cavaliers of the past 3 years

Seems like a much easier matchup for the Bulls than the Warriors IMO.

 

[Abraham]

I'm not a huge bulls guy and I dont like Michael Jordan, but history seems to forget exactly how salty those guys were.  Add in having 4 elite level defenders (the warriors have 1) and I'm taking chicago

 

[matuski]

John Salley would poke KD in the chest until he cried.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I thought we were talking about the end of the season.  Jordan was only on the court for 37 minutes a game during the regular season - same as LeBron these days.  Playoffs that went up to almost 41.  Playoffs are the end of the season.  And at the end of the season, Jordan in his prime was better and in better condition than any other time during the year, and than any player I can think of since not named LeBron or Rip Hamilton.. 

Not sure how you'd possibly be in a position to measure this.  I find it very, very difficult to believe.  Jordan didn't train throughout the offseason and monitor his sleep and diet like modern players do.

Also your previous post about playing against backups brings up another point- the current benches are much better than the benches in the 1990s, because the global reach of the game and the skyrocketing salaries and whatnot have expanded the talent pool substantially.

 

[jvdesigns2002]

Not sure how you'd possibly be in a position to measure this.  I find it very, very difficult to believe.  Jordan didn't train throughout the offseason and monitor his sleep and diet like modern players do.

Also your previous post about playing against backups brings up another point- the current benches are much better than the benches in the 1990s, because the global reach of the game and the skyrocketing salaries and whatnot have expanded the talent pool substantially.

Michael Jordan had a personal gym at his home that would put most professional workout facilities to shame. He also had a full size basketball court with a locker room and he invited several teammates to workout and scrimmage with him in the offseason to create chemistry and cohesion. He also had his personal chef feed him and his teammates proper food. Lastly- he was strength trained by tim grover in the offseason-who to this day is considered world class.

 

[Henry Ford]

Not sure how you'd possibly be in a position to measure this.  I find it very, very difficult to believe.so  Jordan didn't train throughout the offsean and monitor his sleep and diet like modern players do.

Also your previous post about playing against backups brings up another point- the current benches are much better than the benches in the 1990s, because the global reach of the game and the skyrocketing salaries and whatnot have expanded the talent pool substantially.

You could just say you don't know anything about Michael Jordan.  

 

[Zigg]

The unique challenge the 96 Bulls present that other teams from that era don't are three first-team All-Defense players in the starting five.  The Harper-Jordan-Pippen 1-2-3 combo was a unique blend of interchangeable quickness and length no other team from the era had, and Rodman was the best defender on the team.  Curry would have to shoot over a taller defender with long arms.  Thompson wouldn't have a size advantage. 

Why do you mention Curry and ignore Klay and Durant?  How many times were those three Bulls all challenged.  How many times were the opposition longer at 2 spots, while being the best shooting trio of all-time.  That valuable length is negated.  

Golden State is like Brazilian soccer in it's fluidity.  Immensely talented, while interchangeable. 

There is no right answer here, but the clear winner in this thread is nostalgia.

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

Not sure how you'd possibly be in a position to measure this.  I find it very, very difficult to believe.  Jordan didn't train throughout the offseason and monitor his sleep and diet like modern players do.

Also your previous post about playing against backups brings up another point- the current benches are much better than the benches in the 1990s, because the global reach of the game and the skyrocketing salaries and whatnot have expanded the talent pool substantially.

And we bring in the curious case of Toni Kukoc, a player who would have been a lot better in today's game than in the 1990s.  There he is coming off the bench for the 96 Bulls, comfortable playing some PF (even a little C) on defense since the a common finishing lineup for that club was Rodman, Kukoc, Pippen, Jordan, and Kerr/Harper trying to platoon offense/defense with all the stoppages.  By the end of the 1998 season, Kukoc was the starting PF and Rodman was coming off the bench playing starter minutes.  Kukoc is an effective countermeasure against the GSW "Death" lineup, demonstrating that unlike most teams of the era, these Bulls were comfortable playing centerless basketball, or even ditching PF/PF sets for an extra SF skill set. 

 

[Henry Ford]

During the filming for Space Jam, part of his contract included them building, on set, this facility solely for him to work out in.  

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

Why do you mention Curry and ignore Klay and Durant?  How many times were those three Bulls all challenged.  How many times were the opposition longer at 2 spots, while being the best shooting trio of all-time.  That valuable length is negated.  

Golden State is like Brazilian soccer in it's fluidity.  Immensely talented, while interchangeable. 

There is no right answer here, but the clear winner in this thread is nostalgia.

Who did you think I was referring to when I said "Thompson"?  Mychal?  LaSalle?  Tristan?

 

[Henry Ford]

Why do you mention Curry and ignore Klay and Durant?  How many times were those three Bulls all challenged.  How many times were the opposition longer at 2 spots, while being the best shooting trio of all-time.  That valuable length is negated.  

Golden State is like Brazilian soccer in it's fluidity.  Immensely talented, while interchangeable. 

There is no right answer here, but the clear winner in this thread is nostalgia.

I agree.  In an NBA game against the '96 Bulls, Golden State would look just like the Brazil did in the last World Cup.

 

[TobiasFunke]

You could just say you don't know anything about Michael Jordan.  

I understand Jordan was a famously hard worker (firsthand in fact- we belonged to the same gym for a while! Good story for another time). But there's no way he could have trained as efficiently as current players and monitored sleep and diet like players do now, even if I didn't know about the late night gambling and whatnot.  The knowhow/technology wasn't there.

 

[matuski]

Jud Buechler vs JaVale McGee

This is where it gets interesting.

 

[Zigg]

Who did you think I was referring to when I said "Thompson"?  Mychal?  LaSalle?  Tristan?

Sorry, saw that after.  Why do you you site the huge advantage the Bulls length gave them, then neglect to acknowledge that advantage doesn't exist against the Warriors?

What made them dominant, is gone.

 

[Henry Ford]

I understand Jordan was a famously hard worker (firsthand in fact- we belonged to the same gym for a while! Good story for another time). But there's no way he could have trained as efficiently as current players and monitored sleep and diet like players do now, even if I didn't know about the late night gambling and whatnot.  The technology wasn't there.

Who do you think was the basis for these kinds of offseason training programs in the NBA?

 

[scoobus]

Who did you think I was referring to when I said "Thompson"?  Mychal?  LaSalle?  Tristan?

Probably Stevie.

 

[shader]

I thought we were talking about the end of the season.  Jordan was only on the court for 37 minutes a game during the regular season - same as LeBron these days.  Playoffs that went up to almost 41.  Playoffs are the end of the season.  And at the end of the season, Jordan in his prime was better and in better condition than any other time during the year, and than any player I can think of since not named LeBron or Rip Hamilton.. 

But did they use spreadsheets and do detailed performance analysis?  Today we use 25 different algorithms to ensure that each player comes off the court at the proper time, takes a measured recovery drink metabolically matched to the players unique build which enables maximum production.  The ol "hey Jordan has played too many minutes lets give him a break tonight" 90's way of coaching can't hold a candle to today's data-driven methodology.

 

[Zigg]

During the filming for Space Jam, part of his contract included them building, on set, this facility solely for him to work out in.  

Sorry, no more Oakley, Mason, Starks or Davis brothers.  Golden State runs prehistoric Chicago into the ground.

I do love that the Bulls translate seamlessly into the present, while hand checking renders the Warriors useless.  

 

[shader]

I understand Jordan was a famously hard worker (firsthand in fact- we belonged to the same gym for a while! Good story for another time). But there's no way he could have trained as efficiently as current players and monitored sleep and diet like players do now, even if I didn't know about the late night gambling and whatnot.  The knowhow/technology wasn't there.

Technology???  We aren't cyborgs.  The human body hasn't changed that much.  At best you are seeing incremental increases in strength and speed from 90's to now.  If what you were saying was true, every single olympic record would get shattered, which hasn't exactly happened.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Who do you think was the basis for these kinds of offseason training programs in the NBA?

Even if we assume Jordan was the innovator on off-season training and there haven't been improvements since, isn't this just another argument for the Warriors?  After all, their entire roster is doing one of the things that gave Jordan such an edge over his contemporaries.

 

[Henry Ford]

Even if we assume Jordan was the innovator on off-season training and there haven't been improvements since, isn't this just another argument for the Warriors?  After all, their entire roster is doing one of the things that gave Jordan such an edge over his contemporaries.

Note: "one of."

Also, so did Jordan's teammates.  In fact, even during the season, Jordan formed "The Breakfast Club" - teammates would work out together for a couple hours and then Michael Jordan would cook them all breakfast before 11 am practice.

 

[shader]

Even if we assume Jordan was the innovator on off-season training and there haven't been improvements since, isn't this just another argument for the Warriors?  After all, their entire roster is doing one of the things that gave Jordan such an edge over his contemporaries.

http://www.coachmarian.de/Spezials/Workouts/MaloneWorkoutSecrets.htm

 

[shader]

Note: "one of."

Also, so did Jordan's teammates.  In fact, even during the season, Jordan formed "The Breakfast Club" - teammates would work out together for a couple hours and then Michael Jordan would cook them all breakfast before 11 am practice.

https://www.si.com/tech-media/2016/08/09/jordan-brand-bringing-mjs-famous-breakfast-club-workout-online

 

[TobiasFunke]

Technology???  We aren't cyborgs.  The human body hasn't changed that much.  At best you are seeing incremental increases in strength and speed from 90's to now.  If what you were saying was true, every single olympic record would get shattered, which hasn't exactly happened.

1. The technology has changed a ton on basketball fitness, training and practice.  SportVU data, improvements to film study thanks to DVR tech and whatnot, VR for injured players, the body monitoring stuff explained here, and God knows what else that an outsider like me doesn't know about.

2. If you want to measure athletic progression Olympic records are a crappy metric.  It measures only one athlete every four years in varying circumstances.  If you look at the top 100 performances annually in quantifiable sports you'd see consistent improvement across the board.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Technology???  We aren't cyborgs.  The human body hasn't changed that much.  At best you are seeing incremental increases in strength and speed from 90's to now.  If what you were saying was true, every single olympic record would get shattered, which hasn't exactly happened.

Isn't it?

60% of the track and field Olympic records and 100% (!!) of the swimming Olympic records have been set in the last 10 years.

2 of the 52 records are from 1996.  22 of the 52 are from 2016.