Josh Cribbs "insulted" by Browns latest offer (1 Viewer)

[AhrnCityPahnder]

Ryan Pontbriand, OUR LONG SNAPPER, made $5 million this year.

ouch.

 

[Addai's Adidas]

Ryan Pontbriand, OUR LONG SNAPPER, made $5 million this year.

ouch.

Sounds like Cribbs should get his agent's number.

 

[The Man With No Name]

1. Cribbs is the best kick/punt returner in the NFL.

2. Cribbs is arguably the best special teams coverage man in the NFL. I don't have the numbers but in the last 3 years he's got to be top 5 in the NFL in tackles.

3. Cribbs has a career rushing average of 6.5 ypc and rushed for almost 400 yards this season.

4. Cribbs plays KR, PR, WR and RB.

5. Cribbs is EASILY worth +2-3 wins a year just by himself.

How the hell is paying him more than $1.4 million a year "overpaying" for him?!?! FYI, Ryan Pontbriand, OUR LONG SNAPPER, made $5 million this year. To those who are saying that he doesn't deserve more money because he's just a KR/PR- are you serious?

From November 15, 2008

 

[Two Deep]

Somebody from the Browns management needs a football shoved up their ### sideways

 

[switz]

The only defense I can see Homgren have is the fact that the Browns have SO many holes. To waste precious salary cap on an above-average kick returner is probably not on his priority list. Hell, resigning Jerome Harrison probably isn't high on his priority list. You can find an above-average kick returner for less then 1.4 million a year, not game-changing but above-average. At the end of the day.. Cribbs is a project, gimmick player.. what-have-you. I just think that a team with this many holes needs to invest in something a little more concrete then a kick returner. Hell, if the defense wasn't as bad as it is.. chances are Cribbs doesn't get that many opportunities which would lower his stats. I can see Holmgren not wanting to overspend. I'd offer 2.5 MAX.

I totally disagree. Harrison and Cribbs could be the Browns backfield for a few years. It would be cheaper IMO to lock them up than it would be to invest a high pick in an RB, or to sign a FA RB.

Harrison really isn't that good. I know that's blasphemy on this board, lately, as he's one of the most over-hyped players now, but he can't do any of the things that a starting running back needs to be able to do. Did he have a couple of good games running the ball - sure, but in reality he's slow to the hole and lacks vision even in that facet of being a running back.Cribbs is just a kick returner who can run the wildcat and a few gadget plays. As I said before, the guy deserves a raise - without a doubt - but he's not worth 5 million/year.

Have you been watching the same Browns games I have for the past few years?The problem with Harrison was NEVER "slow to the hole" or "lacking vision" He isn't a good pass protector, and he doesn't always follow the design of the play. This year he's improved in both areas. He's also had issues with durability which is some of the reason they never used him too much. But you don't average 6-7 YPC with "slow to the hole" and "no vision" characteristics.

Cribbs isn't "just" a kick returner. He's THE BEST SPECIAL TEAMS PLAYER IN THE NFL. He's a gunner, he's a returner, and he's REALLY GOOD at both. Additionally, he could run out of the backfield as a traditional RB in some situations if they let him. Putting him in the WC give the advantage of an additional blocker, and less distance to the LOS, but it's not the sole reason he's successful. He's 6'1" 220Lbs of speed, quickness, and power.

 

[Chicago Hooligan]

Here is the info rotoworld has on Pontbriand's contract:

9/4/2007: Signed a four-year, $4.755 million contract extension through 2011. The deal included a $1.1 million signing bonus. 2009: $715,000, 2010: $785,000, 2011: $825,000, 2012: Free Agent

His cap number for 2009 however is $4,975,000 based (I assume) on "likely to be earned" incentives that the team truthfully knows Pontbriand is very, very unlikely to earn.

If these incentives are not earned (and the team knows they won't be!) the dollar figure is rolled over into next year's cap. So you can see the benefit for Cleveland in this contract.

Mr. Pontbriand is making a comfortable living, but way less than $5 million.

 

[Sweet Love]

He's a kick returner who has already peaked IMO.

I have to say I agree with this. While he should get more than 2 mill/year, I also believe the Hester money was a little out of whack. I understand a dynamic kick returner can add a lot to team and can alter a game, I also feel that it is strange that arguably the three most dynamic kick returners in NFL history played in the last 6 six years (Hall, Hester, Cribbs). This may just be pure circumstance, but with three, I think it is becoming a trend, and if it is, Cribbs was just unluckly that he was the last guy in this great run of returners we have seen as far as getting a big contract goes. I think teams are starting to think these guys are out there now and why pay a guy 40 million when you have a chance to draft him in the 2nd or 3rd round. I also think it is interesting that in three years under three separate regimes, he still has not gotten his contract renegotiated.Now Cribbs is special compared to Hall and even Hester in that (1) he is a better kick returner than either of those two were (2) can run the wildcat or act as a RB (which the other two could not), and (3) at least compared to Hall is a better receiver. He also is a popular player in the city of Cleveland when they have had little to cheer about, so that adds value, but I still don't see breaking the bank for the guy. With 8 kick return TDs, he is the NFL leader all-time. How many more do people expect him to get? I just feel these guys peak very quickly and fall at the same rate (whatever happened to Hall who just 5 years ago was discussed as an NFL MVP candidate), so I would be hesitant to deliver the aroured car to their doorstep.Also, this is a little off topic, but still relates; How does one value what a kick returner brings as far as the game goes. I know that teams alter the way they kick/punt, thereby giving up some yards or facing the chance they run it back, but how many yards on average, does a Hester or Cribbs bring over a guy like Leon Washington or Sproles (maybe not the best example as they are valuable in the running game too, but maybe even whoever returns kicks for Houston or KC, just to throw some teams out there)? I remember in the 90s Jason Elam had about 5 more yards on his leg when kicking field goals than anyone else in the NFL (which would equal about 10%)...Does Hester or Cribbs add more than 10% more yards over the course of the year than the next guys? Even if they do, do they deserve 10X the money that the average kick returner gets?

To add a little background to my thoughts here, I do think he is underpaid, yet the problem with the way pay works in the NFL is there are a majority of players that are getting paid more or less of what they are worth. This year (and in years past), Cribbs got the short end of the stick (and I don't think anyone would disagree with it). Now the Browns have to make the decision whether they should pay him top dollar when chances are, he will never be effective as he was the past couple of years (he still may be very good, but does he have 6 more return TDs in him over the next two years??). This is a Daniel Snyder move (paying for someone at their peak). Now the Browns may want to pay him for services rendered at a below market salary (although I doubt many teams would do that...look at what it did to the Panthers with Delhomme this year), or they pay him a lot more because (1) it sends a message to the other players that "we will take care of you" or (2) because of what he means to the organization and fan base as a whole...but both of these are for reasons other than what he is projected to do on the field in the future.Now the better teams in the league take care of their best players (like Indy for example), although each has to let talented people walk because of cap restrictions. I think the Browns are caught in a tough position. If they pay him what he wants, chances are he will not live up to the contract (although, how many of these guys actually do??) and they will put more money to the cap. If they don't, they lose faith among the fanbase and players...which could be 10X more damaging. I think the real question is WHAT KIND OF MONEY DOES CRIBBS WANT?? If he is looking for a deal like Hester's, I wouldn't pay that personally. If he is looking for something halfway between what he is at and Hester money, I would strongly consider it.

 

[benm3218]

That's the thing - He's been underpaid for a couple seasons now and the Browns keep putting off giving him the raise he's earned. He was actually going to hold out this year but the team told him if he plays ball and honors his contract that they'd take care of him in the offseason. He went out there and had one of his best seasons and now they're lowballing him. Weak. I guess he should've maybe held out in '08 or '09 instead of putting more tread on the tires, but he was trying to get paid what he was worth without becoming a cancer.

I for one hope he gets paid, whether it's by the Browns or another team.

I agree the man should be paid, he's been put off by the Browns for a couple of years, now. The problem is this: How much is he worth? He's flashy and talented on the field for what he does, but that's it. He's a kick returner who can run the wildcat. He hasn't developed into a receiver, hell, he hasn't even shown any signs that he might still develop into a receiver down the road sometime. Although he's a popular player here in Cleveland, we have a lot of needs and it comes down to what's a (very good, if not the best) kick returner who can run the wildcat and not much else worth?

It's about market value. When Hester is making $10 million/year (granted, he's also now playing WR but he signed that contract before the 2008 season) and they are offering Cribbs $1.3 million, that's not even remotely close to fair market value. It's, in a word, "insulting".I don't know what his true value is, but it lies somewhere between $1.3 million and $10 million. It's probably closer to the $10 million side considering the contributions he's made and the promises the Browns made. Even if he isn't worth that much, that's market value and you have to suck it up.

It's only the market value if other teams believe it is - see the Roy Williams trade. As to Hester, he barely does returns anymore. He's a receiver - maybe even an overpaid receiver. The Chargers also made a mistake by overpaying for their kick returner - and I'm pretty sure that they, and most other teams, know it. Cribbs, in my opinion, is worth about what the Jets were offering Leon Washington in the offseason - about 3.5 million.

Sorry, but that's incorrect. It's market value whether or not the team believes it is. What the TEAM thinks is irrelevant to what market value is. Now, they may not agree with it and can certainly choose to not pay market value, but they will likely be without Cribbs from now on. Also, under the assumption that he would play for the last couple years was that the Browns would work on renegotiating. There's a certain expectation with that and the Browns look absolutely classless on their end as a result.Now, I'm not saying Cribbs should get $10 million/year. However, the league minimum for Cribbs is $600k. They are offering Cribbs only double the league minimum. How ANYONE can defend that for the BEST PLAYER ON THE TEAM is beyond me. Especially when so many players hold out, they've been stringing him along, he puts out his best year, almost gets injured severely, and this is the offer they make? There's a reason the Browns are what they are.

Cribbs is SO much more than a kick returner. Anyone of the 10 people who have said that have not seen him play. He very well could be thier starting RB in tandem with Harrison as Switz said.

 

[The Noid]

He had over 2,500 all-purpose yards last season and scored 6 of the team's 20 TDs. He accounted for more yards than all of the team's QBs combined. More yards than all of the team's RBs combined. And more yards than all of the team's (other) WRs combined.

I don't think anyone is absolutely calling for a Devin Hester $10 million a year deal, but there's no getting around the fact that the Brown are really screwing him. "Just" a kick returner or not, $1.4 is a joke.

At the very least he can be compared to Dante Hall, who signed for about the same as what they're offering Cribbs......7 years ago.

 

[Boston]

My guess is Mike Holmgren doesn't want to make his first act running the show in Cleveland to be giving a guy a new deal with three years remaining on his current deal (especially since it's not a rookie contract). You can definetly argue whether Cribbs is worth more but redoing this deal will set a precedent and open the door to future scenarios such as this.

Usually teams like to redo a deal if it gives them a few years more of production at the backend of the deal at an affordable price (as well as holding off free agency for the player) in exchange for giving the player more money upfront than what he's currently getting (but potentially less than market-value when their actual deal would expire). In this situation there really isn't much upside for Cleveland to redo this deal unless you think Cribbs will remain an elite return-man for another five or six years which doesn't seem to be the norm for the majority of players who fit his profile.

At the end of the day the real cuprit here is whoever advised Cribbs to sign his current deal. He's making below-market money and if he didn't sign that deal he'd probably be on the doorstep to cashing in. He may eventually get a new deal but right now he has virtually no leverage as the Browns were bad with him and have a multitude of holes to fill throughout their roster before they get better...and since it will probably take a few years to accomplish that Holmggren may be leery of giving big money to a guy who though he maybe a force at what he does doesn't play a core position.

 

[Two Deep]

Here's the deal I can pretty much guarantee he puts more butts in the seats than any other player on the roster.

 

[got_nugs]

Cribbs is a great punt returner but that is all he will ever be, so how can u justify giving him tons more money.

He would look great in Miami in their WC packages. Ronnie, Ricky, Cribbs - that could be potent. I woudl love to give up Ginn and a 4th rounder. Not sure that is enough.

Anything with Ginn in it isn't enough. I mean, you'd have to pay Ginn his salary...and that's just a liability.

 

[Chicago Hooligan]

At the end of the day the real cuprit here is whoever advised Cribbs to sign his current deal. He's making below-market money and if he didn't sign that deal he'd probably be on the doorstep to cashing in.

Guessing that they extracted the length of the extension in exchange for a $2m signing bonus... pretty big bonus for the size of the contract ($6.77m). A 6-year extension for a mostly special teams guy is already unusual. The agent is not the "culprit" as I'm sure that cash in hand seemed like a good idea to Cribbs at the time too. If he wanted fewer years on it he could have (obviously should have, as we all see now) negotiated that. Compare him to DeSean Jackson, the NFC kick return representative in the Pro Bowl (now replaced by Harvin as Jackson will start at WR in the game). Philly is going to have to extend Jackson soon. He's a playmaking WR as well as a great returner. Guessing he is worth something like 6 years/$50 million. I don't think Cribbs can hope to make nearly as much.

 

[Wyld Stallyns]

This was most likely just a lowball opening offer by Cleveland anyhow - Cribbs comes back at $10 million, the two sides eventually end up around $5 million... Browns didn't want to open up in the $2's or $3's for fear of ending up in the $6's, $7's or $8's.

Whatever their opening offer was, Cribbs' agent wasn't going to let him accept it - so why bother making your opening offer what you actually think he's worth.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Possibly.

Thing is, is that if you start off offering 1.4, and eventually settle on 5, it looks like you got worked a little in the negotiation, and it takes away all credibility from any future opening offers.

I would be insulted if I were Cribbs. To suggest that he is only worth 1.4 to you says something IMO about how valuable the new regime feels Cribbs is to the team. Thats a horrendously low offer - even for a starting point.

 

[bonesman]

I'm always astounded at people speaking boldly out of ignorance. To say that Cribbs is "only a kick returner" is just nuts!

No doubt... I can't believe it took 45 posts for someone to mention how he's lead the team in Special Teams tackles the last 3 years or so.Cribbs is a FOOTBALL-PLAYER.... now, PAY THE MAN!

 

[Catbird]

Holmgren's perspective here may be a long way from the view of a DawgPounder (hmmm, perhaps not a nickname likely to catch on). Fans understandably want to pay their best and most exciting player. Mikey, however, is looking at a long rebuilding plan - maybe being competitive in 3-4 years if he uses the limited assets without wasting a cent. So if he doesn't see Cribbs likely being a big part of who the team will be in and after '12, how much extra can he spend on him now - when he is already under contract and has virtually no leverage besides fan good will. If they aren't going to win in '10, it only costs a mil to bring in a replacement returner (if Cribbs were to hold out) which is saved by not paying Cribbs. No cost. And would Crobbs actually sit for 3 years out of football when it doesn't cost the Browns to let him - aside from talent. And will having Cribbs play, even if he changes the team results next year from 3 wins to 4 or 5 be worth spending a lot of cash here instead of on something that will help more in the longer run? I just think it looks different - and should - to a guy coming into a tough situation and needing all vailable ammo to turn it around.

That said, I think they bicker some and Cribbs gets a 1 year extension raising his deal to 3 Mil per (for the 4 years) with a decent signing bonus in hand.

 

[MAC_32]

I'm always astounded at people speaking boldly out of ignorance. To say that Cribbs is "only a kick returner" is just nuts!

No doubt... I can't believe it took 45 posts for someone to mention how he's lead the team in Special Teams tackles the last 3 years or so.Cribbs is a FOOTBALL-PLAYER.... now, PAY THE MAN!

Just shows that a lot of people talk without knowing everything.He's a special teams ace, the best currently in the game by leaps and bounds, on both sides of the ball...and he produces on offense 15-20+ snaps/game.

Paying a great returner more than $1.4 mil/yr would be foolish, paying Cribbs 1.4 mil/yr is robbery. His $3 mil asking price is more than fair, for both sides. I hate this team.

 

[Gatorman]

Ginn is only about 1.4 mil or so next year, so ginn + a 4 + a 6 (we have 3 of those) may be a decent move. Miami has no problem giving cribbs some $$$ b/c they could then get rid of ginn (through a trade) and ronnie brown and have plenty for cribbs.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Ginn is only about 1.4 mil or so next year, so ginn + a 4 + a 6 (we have 3 of those) may be a decent move. Miami has no problem giving cribbs some $$$ b/c they could then get rid of ginn (through a trade) and ronnie brown and have plenty for cribbs.

I can dig that...but I would keep Ronnie. You still need a true RB, and Ricky is old, Cobbs is not the guy, and Lex Hilliard is unproven.Is it possible that Holmgren is having to decide whether to pay Harrison or Cribbs, and he has chosen Harrison?

 

[nxmehta]

1. Cribbs is the best kick/punt returner in the NFL.2. Cribbs is arguably the best special teams coverage man in the NFL. I don't have the numbers but in the last 3 years he's got to be top 5 in the NFL in tackles.3. Cribbs has a career rushing average of 6.5 ypc and rushed for almost 400 yards this season.4. Cribbs plays KR, PR, WR and RB.5. Cribbs is EASILY worth +2-3 wins a year just by himself.How the hell is paying him more than $1.4 million a year "overpaying" for him?!?! FYI, Ryan Pontbriand, OUR LONG SNAPPER, made $5 million this year. To those who are saying that he doesn't deserve more money because he's just a KR/PR- are you serious?

I agree with all five of your points, with a few considerations:1. No doubt about it2. Again, no doubt in my mind3. I don't put much stock in a ypc which is comprised mostly of gadget plays4. Yes, he plays all four of those positions, but only KR and PR well. He's, quite possibly, the worst route runner that I've ever seen and can barely get seperation from a linebacker.5. I also agree that Cribbs as a returner and part-time gadget player is worth at least +1 win per year and maybe even 2 -- which is why I believe that he's a kick returner who actually deserves to be paid.With all of this said - an all I've been saying all thread - is that he's not worth more than 3-4million/year. We have too many holes to fill and as the team gets better we will need to rely less and less on the wildcat formation left offtackle play that we run five-seven times every game.

I think $3-4 million a year is very close to spot on. Maybe $5 mil. So I guess we're in agreement here. I was mostly upset at the people who were saying that they didn't understand why you would pay some random PR/KR more and that Browns shouldn't redo his contract. The problem here is that the Browns are not offering him anywhere close to $3-5 mil. It's one thing to start at $1.5 mil and work up, but it's another thing to take the apparent "it'll be the same offer now, and the same offer in September" hardline stance that the Browns are taking now. It's not like Cribbs is trying to hold the organization for ransom. He's been the best player on the team playing for peanuts the last three years, and he deserves to be paid at least an AVERAGE salary for an impact player.Maybe they could just redo his contract to average out to $2 mil a year, but give him a $10 mil roster bonus this year or something.

 

[nxmehta]

Here is the info rotoworld has on Pontbriand's contract:

9/4/2007: Signed a four-year, $4.755 million contract extension through 2011. The deal included a $1.1 million signing bonus. 2009: $715,000, 2010: $785,000, 2011: $825,000, 2012: Free Agent

His cap number for 2009 however is $4,975,000 based (I assume) on "likely to be earned" incentives that the team truthfully knows Pontbriand is very, very unlikely to earn.

If these incentives are not earned (and the team knows they won't be!) the dollar figure is rolled over into next year's cap. So you can see the benefit for Cleveland in this contract.

Mr. Pontbriand is making a comfortable living, but way less than $5 million.

Thank you for clearing this up- when I posted the $5 million figure it was indeed from his cap number, and I didn't know exactly how it worked out with how much he was actually getting paid. My mistake to say he made $5 mil this year.

Although I guess it looks like he's being paid about the same amount as Cribbs, which doesn't look too good

 

[Hurl Bruce]

To me, the real issue is not whether or not Josh Cribbs should be given a raise, but the timing and manner in which he is demanding one.

There is a time for such negotiations and this is not the time. The front office is not even remotely close to being set and Cribbs and co. want them to drop everything and negotiate a new contract? When this all started, the head coach was not known, and interviews had just begun for the new GM. Holmgren and co. had more pressing matters do deal with.

The agent is now doing all of the talk show circuits and is coming off as so amateurish and unprofessional. He is going to piss off the wrong man and Josh is going to pay for it.

Cribbs deserves more money, but not until more pressing matters are taken care of first.

 

[RUSF18]

1. Cribbs is the best kick/punt returner in the NFL.

2. Cribbs is arguably the best special teams coverage man in the NFL. I don't have the numbers but in the last 3 years he's got to be top 5 in the NFL in tackles.

3. Cribbs has a career rushing average of 6.5 ypc and rushed for almost 400 yards this season.

4. Cribbs plays KR, PR, WR and RB.

5. Cribbs is EASILY worth +2-3 wins a year just by himself.

How the hell is paying him more than $1.4 million a year "overpaying" for him?!?! FYI, Ryan Pontbriand, OUR LONG SNAPPER, made $5 million this year. To those who are saying that he doesn't deserve more money because he's just a KR/PR- are you serious?

I agree with all five of your points, with a few considerations:1. No doubt about it

2. Again, no doubt in my mind

3. I don't put much stock in a ypc which is comprised mostly of gadget plays

4. Yes, he plays all four of those positions, but only KR and PR well. He's, quite possibly, the worst route runner that I've ever seen and can barely get seperation from a linebacker.

5. I also agree that Cribbs as a returner and part-time gadget player is worth at least +1 win per year and maybe even 2 -- which is why I believe that he's a kick returner who actually deserves to be paid.

With all of this said - an all I've been saying all thread - is that he's not worth more than 3-4million/year. We have too many holes to fill and as the team gets better we will need to rely less and less on the wildcat formation left offtackle play that we run five-seven times every game.

So with that out there...you wouldn't be insulted by being offered almost a third of what you deserve?

 

[MAC_32]

Ginn is only about 1.4 mil or so next year, so ginn + a 4 + a 6 (we have 3 of those) may be a decent move.

Die.

 

[Da Guru]

I thought Cribbs has three years left on his contract after this year?

 

[gianmarco]

It's only the market value if other teams believe it is - see the Roy Williams trade. As to Hester, he barely does returns anymore. He's a receiver - maybe even an overpaid receiver. The Chargers also made a mistake by overpaying for their kick returner - and I'm pretty sure that they, and most other teams, know it. Cribbs, in my opinion, is worth about what the Jets were offering Leon Washington in the offseason - about 3.5 million.

Sorry, but that's incorrect. It's market value whether or not the team believes it is. What the TEAM thinks is irrelevant to what market value is. Now, they may not agree with it and can certainly choose to not pay market value, but they will likely be without Cribbs from now on. Also, under the assumption that he would play for the last couple years was that the Browns would work on renegotiating. There's a certain expectation with that and the Browns look absolutely classless on their end as a result.Now, I'm not saying Cribbs should get $10 million/year. However, the league minimum for Cribbs is $600k. They are offering Cribbs only double the league minimum. How ANYONE can defend that for the BEST PLAYER ON THE TEAM is beyond me. Especially when so many players hold out, they've been stringing him along, he puts out his best year, almost gets injured severely, and this is the offer they make? There's a reason the Browns are what they are.

Usually, you and I agree on most things here - but market value isn't some number made by the player - it's determined by the teams. If no team is willing to pay Cribbs the type of money he thinks he's worth then he's not worth it - it's just that simple.I've been both a Saints and Browns fan all of my life (I live in Cleveland) and I can surely say with all certainty that I agree with you that the Browns look totally classless in these three years of negotiating with Cribbs. No doubt in my mind.As to Cribbs being the best player on the Browns -- while true, it isn't saying much. While I like Cribbs and love the way he plays the game, he's not worth the kind of money he's apparently looking for - he's worth more (probably just over double) than the Browns offered, but nowhere near the 10million that Hester fleeced the Bears for.

I think we do agree here but we're just discussing different things. You're absolutely right that it's determined by the teams. That's my point, though. Other teams do pay their PR/KR more. The offer he got wasn't even in the top 10 of KR/PR. Cribbs is the best KR/PR in the NFL and possibly in the history of the NFL and the Browns are NOT offering him market value or close to it. Guaranteed if Cribbs was a FA, he'd land a helluva lot more than $1.4 million from some team. And while some team may overpay and offer him $10 million, and I'm not saying that that would be his market value. Just that I can assure you that the majority of NFL teams would gladly pay this guy at least $3-4 million for him to do what he's able to do. The fact that there's at least 10 other guys at his position that make more than the $1.4 million he was offered is a testament to that. So, in the end, I don't think the Browns are offering anything close to what his "market value" would be if he were a FA. Of course, he's under contract and they aren't obligated to. But, you don't then string the guy along for 3 years telling him you'll rework his contract and make it sound like you'll take care of him and then offer 2x league minimum to the best in the business at what he does (and much more). Particularly when he threatened to hold out and played the full season in good faith to get something done as promised. I truly hope he walks and goes to another team as I can't stand teams and owners that behave in this manner. I'm sorry you're a Browns fan and have to put up with that. At least the Saints are in the playoffs

 

[Fallerjw]

The only defense I can see Homgren have is the fact that the Browns have SO many holes. To waste precious salary cap on an above-average kick returner is probably not on his priority list. Hell, resigning Jerome Harrison probably isn't high on his priority list. You can find an above-average kick returner for less then 1.4 million a year, not game-changing but above-average. At the end of the day.. Cribbs is a project, gimmick player.. what-have-you. I just think that a team with this many holes needs to invest in something a little more concrete then a kick returner. Hell, if the defense wasn't as bad as it is.. chances are Cribbs doesn't get that many opportunities which would lower his stats. I can see Holmgren not wanting to overspend. I'd offer 2.5 MAX.

I totally disagree. Harrison and Cribbs could be the Browns backfield for a few years. It would be cheaper IMO to lock them up than it would be to invest a high pick in an RB, or to sign a FA RB.

Harrison really isn't that good. I know that's blasphemy on this board, lately, as he's one of the most over-hyped players now, but he can't do any of the things that a starting running back needs to be able to do. Did he have a couple of good games running the ball - sure, but in reality he's slow to the hole and lacks vision even in that facet of being a running back.Cribbs is just a kick returner who can run the wildcat and a few gadget plays. As I said before, the guy deserves a raise - without a doubt - but he's not worth 5 million/year.

Have you been watching the same Browns games I have for the past few years?The problem with Harrison was NEVER "slow to the hole" or "lacking vision" He isn't a good pass protector, and he doesn't always follow the design of the play. This year he's improved in both areas. He's also had issues with durability which is some of the reason they never used him too much. But you don't average 6-7 YPC with "slow to the hole" and "no vision" characteristics.

Cribbs isn't "just" a kick returner. He's THE BEST SPECIAL TEAMS PLAYER IN THE NFL. He's a gunner, he's a returner, and he's REALLY GOOD at both. Additionally, he could run out of the backfield as a traditional RB in some situations if they let him. Putting him in the WC give the advantage of an additional blocker, and less distance to the LOS, but it's not the sole reason he's successful. He's 6'1" 220Lbs of speed, quickness, and power.

I'm not sure if Paul Newton has ever seen the Browns play, but he could not be more wrong about Harrison and Cribbs

 

[BassNBrew]

He's a kick returner who has already peaked IMO.

I have to say I agree with this. While he should get more than 2 mill/year, I also believe the Hester money was a little out of whack. I understand a dynamic kick returner can add a lot to team and can alter a game, I also feel that it is strange that arguably the three most dynamic kick returners in NFL history played in the last 6 six years (Hall, Hester, Cribbs). This may just be pure circumstance, but with three, I think it is becoming a trend, and if it is, Cribbs was just unluckly that he was the last guy in this great run of returners we have seen as far as getting a big contract goes. I think teams are starting to think these guys are out there now and why pay a guy 40 million when you have a chance to draft him in the 2nd or 3rd round. I also think it is interesting that in three years under three separate regimes, he still has not gotten his contract renegotiated.Now Cribbs is special compared to Hall and even Hester in that (1) he is a better kick returner than either of those two were (2) can run the wildcat or act as a RB (which the other two could not), and (3) at least compared to Hall is a better receiver. He also is a popular player in the city of Cleveland when they have had little to cheer about, so that adds value, but I still don't see breaking the bank for the guy. With 8 kick return TDs, he is the NFL leader all-time. How many more do people expect him to get? I just feel these guys peak very quickly and fall at the same rate (whatever happened to Hall who just 5 years ago was discussed as an NFL MVP candidate), so I would be hesitant to deliver the aroured car to their doorstep.

Also, this is a little off topic, but still relates; How does one value what a kick returner brings as far as the game goes. I know that teams alter the way they kick/punt, thereby giving up some yards or facing the chance they run it back, but how many yards on average, does a Hester or Cribbs bring over a guy like Leon Washington or Sproles (maybe not the best example as they are valuable in the running game too, but maybe even whoever returns kicks for Houston or KC, just to throw some teams out there)? I remember in the 90s Jason Elam had about 5 more yards on his leg when kicking field goals than anyone else in the NFL (which would equal about 10%)...Does Hester or Cribbs add more than 10% more yards over the course of the year than the next guys? Even if they do, do they deserve 10X the money that the average kick returner gets?

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HallDa00.htmHow soon they forget.

At their peak; Hall was on par or just slightly below Cribbs in kickoff returns, Hall was the better put returner, and Hall's receiving stats in years 2-6 exceed Cribb's best effort.

 

[Bobcat10]

I thought Cribbs has three years left on his contract after this year?

He does. That's why this is turning into a show.

 

[cobalt_27]

Ginn is only about 1.4 mil or so next year, so ginn + a 4 + a 6 (we have 3 of those) may be a decent move. Miami has no problem giving cribbs some $$$ b/c they could then get rid of ginn (through a trade) and ronnie brown and have plenty for cribbs.

I can dig that...but I would keep Ronnie. You still need a true RB, and Ricky is old, Cobbs is not the guy, and Lex Hilliard is unproven.Is it possible that Holmgren is having to decide whether to pay Harrison or Cribbs, and he has chosen Harrison?

You Dolphins fans do realize that Ginn sucks, right?

 

[BuckeyeArt]

FYI, Ryan Pontbriand, OUR LONG SNAPPER, made $5 million this year.

Or a little less than $1 million, if you add in the prorated signing bonus.

 

[BuckeyeArt]

He's a kick returner who has already peaked IMO.

I have to say I agree with this. While he should get more than 2 mill/year, I also believe the Hester money was a little out of whack. I understand a dynamic kick returner can add a lot to team and can alter a game, I also feel that it is strange that arguably the three most dynamic kick returners in NFL history played in the last 6 six years (Hall, Hester, Cribbs). This may just be pure circumstance, but with three, I think it is becoming a trend, and if it is, Cribbs was just unluckly that he was the last guy in this great run of returners we have seen as far as getting a big contract goes. I think teams are starting to think these guys are out there now and why pay a guy 40 million when you have a chance to draft him in the 2nd or 3rd round. I also think it is interesting that in three years under three separate regimes, he still has not gotten his contract renegotiated.Now Cribbs is special compared to Hall and even Hester in that (1) he is a better kick returner than either of those two were (2) can run the wildcat or act as a RB (which the other two could not), and (3) at least compared to Hall is a better receiver. He also is a popular player in the city of Cleveland when they have had little to cheer about, so that adds value, but I still don't see breaking the bank for the guy. With 8 kick return TDs, he is the NFL leader all-time. How many more do people expect him to get? I just feel these guys peak very quickly and fall at the same rate (whatever happened to Hall who just 5 years ago was discussed as an NFL MVP candidate), so I would be hesitant to deliver the aroured car to their doorstep.

Also, this is a little off topic, but still relates; How does one value what a kick returner brings as far as the game goes. I know that teams alter the way they kick/punt, thereby giving up some yards or facing the chance they run it back, but how many yards on average, does a Hester or Cribbs bring over a guy like Leon Washington or Sproles (maybe not the best example as they are valuable in the running game too, but maybe even whoever returns kicks for Houston or KC, just to throw some teams out there)? I remember in the 90s Jason Elam had about 5 more yards on his leg when kicking field goals than anyone else in the NFL (which would equal about 10%)...Does Hester or Cribbs add more than 10% more yards over the course of the year than the next guys? Even if they do, do they deserve 10X the money that the average kick returner gets?

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HallDa00.htmHow soon they forget.

At their peak; Hall was on par or just slightly below Cribbs in kickoff returns, Hall was the better put returner, and Hall's receiving stats in years 2-6 exceed Cribb's best effort.

And Cribbs had better rushing stats. Overall, their 1st 5 years are very close, with Cribbs having about 9100 total yards and Hall about 8400. Interestingly, Hall signed a 5 year extension after his 3rd year just before his 2003 season. The amount - 5 year, $5.2 million, about the same (per year) being offered Cribbs seven years later.

 

[Floyd The Barber]

He's a kick returner with 3 years left on his deal. Let him sit out if he feels so insulted.

he signed the contract right? sadly this isnt how it works though. he can make a scene and be a distration until they trade him and some other team pays him.

Let's take some perspective here - most NFL contracts are not guaranteed. Thus, it's really not much of a contract. I don't buy the "he signed it - he should honor it" line. I would be more sympathetic to the team if contracts were guaranteed. He was the best guy on that team. They should pay him accordingly.

The players better get used to it if they don't get together with the owners on a new contract. Free agency after 6 years, not 4. Double the franchise tags.Cribbs is worth more than $1.4 million, but his drama queen antics this week were priceless. Once it was obvious they weren't handing him a blank check, out came all the "me, me, me" talk that mouthpiece Deion had been pimping for him.I don't blame Cribbs for wanting more. He's earned it and is worth it, but please - all is fair in contract negotiations. Them lowballing you and you whining about it.

 

[Floyd The Barber]

This is pretty much the same stuff Hester, to name one among many guys, said in the early stages of getting a new deal.I have absolutely no doubt that Cribbs will get his contract and stay with the Browns. You can get other pretty good kick returners but very few players who are worth an extra 2 or 3 wins per season.

How many wins did Hester directly account for in Chicago this year? Or since he's signed the big bucks contract? Does he still play with his edge? I don't follow the Bears to know, but I don't recall any splash plays this year. , You can understand the Browns caution in handing over huge money to a player that relies on reckless regard for life and limb for his success. Will he continue to bust his butt after he's paid? Will he get injured playing in these high-risk parts of the game (returns / wildcat)? It all has to be weighed out by management.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

Holmgren would be getting off on the wrong foot with Browns fans if he let Cribbs get away. I'm pretty sure they would have gone winless this year without Cribbs.

Nah, there was that Buffalo game. Cribbs 2-30 kickoff, 3-7 punts. But still, that offer honestly is insulting.

He did have a 31-yard run in that epic struggle.

True. That's also 8 more yards than Anderson had passing. They should have just run the Wildcat all game.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

a lot of this is posturing. But the 1/4 offer is bs. Shelf life of an nfl return man is pretty low, and relatively high injury risk. That and he might be the teams best offensive player. Really needs to be worked in an a brian mitchell kinda way. Kinda like I always wish the lions did when they wasted the HOF talent of Mel Gray for years.

 

[CanadianNFLJunkie]

1. Cribbs is the best kick/punt returner in the NFL.

2. Cribbs is arguably the best special teams coverage man in the NFL. I don't have the numbers but in the last 3 years he's got to be top 5 in the NFL in tackles.

3. Cribbs has a career rushing average of 6.5 ypc and rushed for almost 400 yards this season.

4. Cribbs plays KR, PR, WR and RB.

5. Cribbs is EASILY worth +2-3 wins a year just by himself.

How the hell is paying him more than $1.4 million a year "overpaying" for him?!?! FYI, Ryan Pontbriand, OUR LONG SNAPPER, made $5 million this year. To those who are saying that he doesn't deserve more money because he's just a KR/PR- are you serious?

based on what? He's a gunner on special teams isn't he? Heath Harwell on Minny who was voted to the Pro-Bowl had 18 tackles this past year, with Cribbs having NINE. Usually gunner's don't lead the team in special team tackles so until you have solid numbers proving your theory, don't put this in there!As for Pontbriand, he's over-paid and most likely will restructure or get cut.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

He's a kick returner with 3 years left on his deal. Let him sit out if he feels so insulted.

he signed the contract right? sadly this isnt how it works though. he can make a scene and be a distration until they trade him and some other team pays him.

sadly?It's hard to imagine anyone who posts here often not understanding that an "nfl contract" is not a contract legally. In law an agreement that can be broken by one party at will does not constitute an enforceable contract. Then again you do where rubberbands on your wrists and floss in gas station t shirt attire.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

I understand having errors in posts or e-mails. I do not understand, however, how an attorney/agent, while representing their client to an NFL club through an e-mail, and then releasing that e-mail for publication as was the intent here all along, could write the matter so poorly. Perhaps Cribbs position would be taken more seriously if he had more impressive and competent representation.

In my experience, Attorneys generally think they are great writers.

We type how we think, which is usually in run on sentences and tangents. I think that this was just an email the dude bounced to the reporter (probably one of many) and that could be a spellcheck error too. I for one think people who overly focus obn spelling and grammar, when intent is clear, should find something better to do with their time. lifes two short. They prolly get mad at a lot off other stuff and have hi blood presher too.

 

[Godsbrother]

To me, the real issue is not whether or not Josh Cribbs should be given a raise, but the timing and manner in which he is demanding one.

There is a time for such negotiations and this is not the time. The front office is not even remotely close to being set and Cribbs and co. want them to drop everything and negotiate a new contract? When this all started, the head coach was not known, and interviews had just begun for the new GM. Holmgren and co. had more pressing matters do deal with.

The agent is now doing all of the talk show circuits and is coming off as so amateurish and unprofessional. He is going to piss off the wrong man and Josh is going to pay for it.

Cribbs deserves more money, but not until more pressing matters are taken care of first.

I wouldn't worry about it -- this is just posturing and is really the only card that Cribbs can play right now. I doubt that his agent appearing on the talk show circuit is going to affect the Browns management's decisions.

 

[Da Guru]

Why do players sign 6 years deals out of college??

Sign a two year deal, see where you stand and sign another two year deal.

 

[treat88]

It's hard to imagine anyone who posts here often not understanding that an "nfl contract" is not a contract legally. In law an agreement that can be broken by one party at will does not constitute an enforceable contract.

Do you have an example of a situation where a team has breached a contract by releasing a player?

 

[daveR]

Why do players sign 6 years deals out of college??

Sign a two year deal, see where you stand and sign another two year deal.

Well... In this situation, Cribbs didn't sign a six-year deal out of college. This is his second contract.However, top picks do it because they have the leverage to do so prior to proving their worth. It's rarely a negative.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

He's a kick returner with 3 years left on his deal. Let him sit out if he feels so insulted.

he signed the contract right? sadly this isnt how it works though. he can make a scene and be a distration until they trade him and some other team pays him.

sadly?It's hard to imagine anyone who posts here often not understanding that an "nfl contract" is not a contract legally. In law an agreement that can be broken by one party at will does not constitute an enforceable contract. Then again you do where rubberbands on your wrists and floss in gas station t shirt attire.

Fascinating. Wrong, but fascinating.

 

[switz]

I understand having errors in posts or e-mails. I do not understand, however, how an attorney/agent, while representing their client to an NFL club through an e-mail, and then releasing that e-mail for publication as was the intent here all along, could write the matter so poorly. Perhaps Cribbs position would be taken more seriously if he had more impressive and competent representation.

In my experience, Attorneys generally think they are great writers.

We type how we think, which is usually in run on sentences and tangents. I think that this was just an email the dude bounced to the reporter (probably one of many) and that could be a spellcheck error too. I for one think people who overly focus obn spelling and grammar, when intent is clear, should find something better to do with their time. lifes two short. They prolly get mad at a lot off other stuff and have hi blood presher too.

Priceles... <_<

 

[amnesiac]

i would look for a deal with hopefully a smaller signing bonus (2 mil?), and then yearly salaries in the range of 3.5 to 4 million a year, maybe for 3 years.

i think that would be pretty fair for both sides.

 

[Da Guru]

Why do players sign 6 years deals out of college??

Sign a two year deal, see where you stand and sign another two year deal.

Well... In this situation, Cribbs didn't sign a six-year deal out of college. This is his second contract.However, top picks do it because they have the leverage to do so prior to proving their worth. It's rarely a negative.

I remember when Cribbs signed that deal..he was "giddy" An undrafted KR getting a very good contract for 6 years. Why are we talking about a KR on a crappy team anyway?

 

[Ravens]

Do you have an example of a situation where a team has breached a contract by releasing a player?

Nope.

 

[ThaPenguin]

Good. Get him out of the division.

Preferably the NFL North.