Judge to Decide HS Football Game after Ref Blunder (1 Viewer)

[Bull Dozier]

If you think a ref can somehow waste your effort, then you aren't a very good coach.  Until you get to High School varsity games, wins and losses mean very little.  You should focus more on developing players and less on winning.  Good luck with your career, Coach Knight.

Also, the money isn't that bad, but it isn't that good either.  Some do it for the money (usually younger), some do it for the love of the game (usually older).

If you are in a rec league, you need to temper the expectations.  If their isn't a governing body over your officials, you shouldn't expect much and just use it as a teaching tool for your players that they need to work through adversity.

"Wasted" was a poor choice of words, and I struggled to find something better.  You're right in that it is not wasted, and I agree that wins and losses mean very little in the grand scheme of things.  I get that arguing with refs in a thread about reffing isn't going to show the best light on myself as a coach.  I'm not going to hijack it any further, to defend myself and waste each others' time, but suffice it to say I am confident I am doing things the right way and for the right reasons.

My youngest plays traveling.  There are a few different "groups" the tournaments pull refs from.  One average, some groups are better than others.  Running a home tournament for our program, and seeing the bill first hand, I do think I can expect a certain level of performance for labor I am paying for.  That said, I do use it as a teaching tool.  We actually have a kid this year, one of our best players, who has some emotional control issues.  He almost got T'd up last weekend (I wouldn't have argued if he did and which would have cost us the game) complaining about a call.  We had to pull him aside at practice this week and let him know that kind of outburst is not acceptable.  We have a rule that kids do not question officials.  The only one that does is the head coach if it needs to be done (that is not me).  Officiating is a horrible job in my eyes, and I would never do it.  I don't argue with refs or complain (usually) but I still do expect them to do a good job.

You are not getting paid enough.   Why do it?

Is it possible that both the coach and the officials do it for more than just $$?

Of course.  But it appears your are universally defending refs against those who haven't done it.  I'll concede that a lot of refs do a good job and don't deserve the treatment they get if you can concede that refs that misinterpret rules that effect the outcome of a game deserve some criticism.  You might be one of the good ones, and if I knew you maybe I'd want you to do all my games.  But if you are telling me that since I never picked up a whistle I can't complain about the guy who checks his cell phone while play is going in, that's just preposterous.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

So plaintiff is "harmed" in that they don't get to play in the next game.  A game.  I just don't see it.

Sure.  Irreparable harm has nothing to do with the degree of harm (that's another prong of the injunction test).  It's simply concerned with whether the harm is subject to post-injury remediation.  We may agree or disagree over that, but if Tom Brady could at least argue irreparable harm (and win at the District Court!) when his game checks could have been figured in monetary damages had he won in court after the suspension, then I don't think it's a stretch for the loss of a title game to be considered irreparable harm. 

 

[IC FBGCav]

How wasted were you?

I would have reffed much better if I was.   I had stage fright, hardly whistled anything and almost ended in a brawl. 

 

[Cjw_55106]

So out of curiosity Jayrod, at what point do officials step in and correct another? It seems too often (1 in 200 if you'd like) they are more concerned about embarrassing the brotherhood than getting things right. The OP for example. It wasn't one guy making a terrible call that cost 50 kids a chance at a championship, it was a group effort where the others let it happen IMO. I'm not talking a judgment call, I'm talking about incorrect rule interpretation. 

 

[Jayrod]

So out of curiosity Jayrod, at what point do officials step in and correct another? It seems too often (1 in 200 if you'd like) they are more concerned about embarrassing the brotherhood than getting things right. The OP for example. It wasn't one guy making a terrible call that cost 50 kids a chance at a championship, it was a group effort where the others let it happen IMO. I'm not talking a judgment call, I'm talking about incorrect rule interpretation. 

In football?  If any of the 5 know the correct rule, they better get in there and let everyone know it and jump up and down and keep them from doing it wrong.

All 5 guys are responsible for that screw up.  Not one of them knew the correct rule which is mind bottling to me considering what happened in the OSU game.  Before I heard the news about the OSU game, I wouldn't have had the confidence to confront my referee, but once I reviewed the rules enough to know the rule fully, I wouldn't have let that happen.

In basketball it is more tricky, because any "correction" will be very public and embarrassing for the other official and you usually aren't in a position to see the play being called.  But if you see something you know is wrong (like who hit it out of bounds or that a travel happened before a foul) you can confer with your partner and try to get it right.  But you can never call what you don't see.  However, if we are just talking about rule interpretation, then by all means, confer and get it right.

 

[Thorn]

Sure.  Irreparable harm has nothing to do with the degree of harm (that's another prong of the injunction test).  It's simply concerned with whether the harm is subject to post-injury remediation.  We may agree or disagree over that, but if Tom Brady could at least argue irreparable harm (and win at the District Court!) when his game checks could have been figured in monetary damages had he won in court after the suspension, then I don't think it's a stretch for the loss of a title game to be considered irreparable harm. 

But doesn't there have to be some legal right affected?  I'm admittedly out of my element, as I don't remember the last time I was involved in seeking or preventing an injunction, but there certainly was no contract right to play in the next game, so is it negligence against the school system?  They had a legal duty to what - ensure that games are officiated right?  Negligent supervision?  I guess that's why I said I would like to see the pleadings.  What cause of action supports the prayer for an injunction?  

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Sadly I see people who have never picked up a whistle in their life make snide comments about the state of officiating.

Good to know that this is the new requirement to comment about things.  Go ahead and shut this forum down because I'm guessing the people that complain about NFL players here aren't ex NFL players.  And I'm sure that the people complaining about the presidents here aren't ex-presidents.

 

[Wrigley]

Slippery slope here

and I live in Plainfield 

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Can we all agree that it's stupid that the game ends on an intentional grounding call by the leading team?

They should change that rule.

 

[Wrigley]

Can we all agree that it's stupid that the game ends on an intentional grounding call by the leading team?

They should change that rule.

Why pass anyway? 

Run it it out of the end zone, anything but pass it 

 

[Bull Dozier]

In basketball it is more tricky, because any "correction" will be very public and embarrassing for the other official and you usually aren't in a position to see the play being called.  But if you see something you know is wrong (like who hit it out of bounds or that a travel happened before a foul) you can confer with your partner and try to get it right.  But you can never call what you don't see.  However, if we are just talking about rule interpretation, then by all means, confer and get it right.

See, that I don't get and I think is a mentality that needs to be changed by any official that feels this way.

Story from this past weekend.  We were on D, defending hard on the sideline.  One ref was low on that sideline, other was high on the other side of the court.  Our player tips the ball from the dribbler just enough for him to lose control.  There is a scramble for the ball.  There is no room on the sideline, it is barely a foot from the wall (bleachers actually, pulled up against the wall).  Ball bounces between the two players, then off the way.  Ref watching the action immediately runs up to the spot where the ball went out and loudly announced "I was screened from the play, I have to call a jump ball."  Ref on the far side of the court runs over to them and they huddle for 10 seconds.  They come out and give the ball to us.  Either way they handled it after the huddle I would have been completely fine with.  The one ref announced why he was making a call, they two refs huddled to discus and made a decision.  The other coach didn't protest, because he knew they talked it over.  Who's going to complain, and I come away with even more respect for the two guys because I know they are working to get the call right.

 

[Wrigley]

Judge rules in Plainfield favor 

 

[Dr. Octopus]

So plaintiff is "harmed" in that they don't get to play in the next game.  A game.  I just don't see it.

That's because your definition of "harmed" is too literal.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

But doesn't there have to be some legal right affected?  I'm admittedly out of my element, as I don't remember the last time I was involved in seeking or preventing an injunction, but there certainly was no contract right to play in the next game, so is it negligence against the school system?  They had a legal duty to what - ensure that games are officiated right?  Negligent supervision?  I guess that's why I said I would like to see the pleadings.  What cause of action supports the prayer for an injunction?  

I imagine the Athletic Board or whatever it's called would be a voluntary association.  Courts have jurisdiction to ensure that a voluntary association abides by its internal rules as a matter of contract law (the individual schools or school systems are members that likely have some type of contract governing their membership).  For that reason, I could see where the refusal to hear an appeal might be reviewable if that refusal violated the by-laws. But the by-laws suggest that decisions on the field are not reviewable. 

 

[AAABatteries]

Judge rules in Plainfield favor 

As much as it sucks for the other team, I think this is the right ruling.

 

[Zegras11]

I would have reffed much better if I was.   I had stage fright, hardly whistled anything and almost ended in a brawl. 

LOL.    I played hoops also.  Reffed Newport Beach Summer League for a few seasons.  Many top players played there. Remember having good conversations with Scott Brooks right after he played for 76ers and had signed with Twolves.   I did pretty well.  Would give myself a B+.  It's so much harder than anyone thinks because the game moves so fast.

 

[Tom Servo]

As much as it sucks for the other team, I think this is the right ruling.

Ditto.

 

[ffldrew]

Won't matter East Side will beat either team

 

[Brony]

My brother used to hit the reset button with his foot on the Atari 2600 if he was in danger of losing.  I know the pain in this situation.

 

[Sweet J]

Because it opens up Pandora's box.  Overrule the governing body and you'll be inundated with cases like this.   IMO if you have a problem with the ruling you need to settle it then and there.   You argue your case to the officials and if they don't overturn the call then you have to live with it and move on.  

The purpose of a protest to the governing body should be to review and take corrective action so it does not occur in the future.

That's not what I'm talking about.  What I'm saying is what's preventing the "winning" team from saying: "You know what?  That's a blown call that clearly and unambiguously gave the wrong team the win. They should move on not us."

 

[Sand]

I would have reffed much better if I was.   I had stage fright, hardly whistled anything and almost ended in a brawl. 

If it makes you feel like you're in good company I ended up reffing a 12 year olds soccer game (ref didn't show). Note this was a YMCA level game, no big deal at all. Despite doing a good job one particular parent on the other team took major exception to a call and walked onto the field cursing, etc.  I, as a last second volunteer, had to eject this woman and almost got myself into a fight on top of it.  People around still remember this - it was a surreal experience.

 

[Jayrod]

See, that I don't get and I think is a mentality that needs to be changed by any official that feels this way.

Story from this past weekend.  We were on D, defending hard on the sideline.  One ref was low on that sideline, other was high on the other side of the court.  Our player tips the ball from the dribbler just enough for him to lose control.  There is a scramble for the ball.  There is no room on the sideline, it is barely a foot from the wall (bleachers actually, pulled up against the wall).  Ball bounces between the two players, then off the way.  Ref watching the action immediately runs up to the spot where the ball went out and loudly announced "I was screened from the play, I have to call a jump ball."  Ref on the far side of the court runs over to them and they huddle for 10 seconds.  They come out and give the ball to us.  Either way they handled it after the huddle I would have been completely fine with.  The one ref announced why he was making a call, they two refs huddled to discus and made a decision.  The other coach didn't protest, because he knew they talked it over.  Who's going to complain, and I come away with even more respect for the two guys because I know they are working to get the call right.

I don't disagree and what you are describing is commonplace.  Out of bounds, who touched it last, etc. is a normal discussion.

Embarrassing is when one official reverses a call made by another official like a foul or travel call.  There are a lot of times when my partner blows his whistle and calls something that I didn't agree with, but I'm not about to run out there, stop him and correct him.  If it is a egregious enough, I'll talk to them about it at a later time, but I'm not about to say, "wait, that wasn't a foul...just call it an inadvertent whistle and play on from the nearest out of bounds spot."  Whereas in football, if my crewmate throws a flag I'm certain isn't there, I'll tell him and we'll wave off the foul.  I love that about football, but the opportunity just isn't there in basketball.

 

[Jayrod]

I had a partner overrule once in a game on a backcourt violation call.  I blew the whistle, made the call and then the coach started getting upset.  I looked at my partner and he came over to tell me I was wrong.  We reversed the call and gave the ball back to the team I called the violation on.  After discussing it with him, I knew I was wrong so I'd rather get it right.

 

[pats3in4]

As much as it sucks for the other team, I think this is the right ruling.

Exactly.  For better or worse, officials are part of the game and the rule book backs their calls on the field, as wrong as they may be.

I wonder how much outrage there would be on Fenwick's side if:

- Plainfield shanked the game-tying FG attempt.

- Fenwick stopped Plainfield on their OT TD drive (only Plainfield's second of the day).

- Fenwick stopped Plainfield on their go-for-broke 2pt conversion.

Yes, the call at the end of the game was horrendous and the game should have never gotten to that point.  Yet I have a feeling that Fenwick fans and players were feeling really good about themselves up in OT 17-10 in a game where TDs were hard to come by.

Now I hope East St. Louis blows out Plainfield by 30.

 

[The Duff Man]

I was an ump, and now my daughter plays basketball. Often times the ref is atrocious but I keep my comments to myself, being an ump was challenging enough and basketball looks like a MUCH harder game to officiate.  Particularly with 11 year old girls who are learning how to defend.  

That being said, it is incredibly frustrating in any sport when the officials don't know the rules. If you are going to do that work, have enough respect to put in time and learn the rules. 

I had an important call that I overturned in a championship game. I was working the plate and there was a play at home. My position was correct, but it was an off throw and the catcher turned his body to make the tag slightly blocking my view. 

I called the runner out, but as the catcher went to the ground, the ball dribbled out and he scooped it back up. 

The 3rd base ump came in and said he saw it. None of the other umps did but he was certain. I overturned my call. 

The team in the field didn't argue much, it was the right call. The parents on the other hand...

 

[Bull Dozier]

I don't disagree and what you are describing is commonplace.  Out of bounds, who touched it last, etc. is a normal discussion.

Embarrassing is when one official reverses a call made by another official like a foul or travel call.  There are a lot of times when my partner blows his whistle and calls something that I didn't agree with, but I'm not about to run out there, stop him and correct him.  If it is a egregious enough, I'll talk to them about it at a later time, but I'm not about to say, "wait, that wasn't a foul...just call it an inadvertent whistle and play on from the nearest out of bounds spot."  Whereas in football, if my crewmate throws a flag I'm certain isn't there, I'll tell him and we'll wave off the foul.  I love that about football, but the opportunity just isn't there in basketball.

I'd agree that a foul occurring (or not) in basketball is a tough one, because play has to be stopped.  Overruling a call that has already been announced is tough too.

But, I don't agree that what happened in my scenario is "commonplace," at least at the youth level.  In ten years of coaching youth basketball (4th through 8th, traveling and private school league) I can count the number of times this has happened on one hand.  One time my coaching partner, in a non aggressive non argumentative tone, simply asked the ref to confer with his partner to make sure he agreed with his call and he flat out refused.

 

[kutta]

The problem I'm having accepting that the team needs to live with the refs' bad call is that, technically, the game was over and then the call was made. The clock was at zero, and that's it. It should be game over.

its a different deal if the game isn't over; I agree, live with the call. 

 

[Jayrok]

Tough break for the losing team.  The worse part is that it wasn't like they stopped a play (like the Hopkins TD Monday night) by blowing the whistle then went "oops", sorry.  They had time to discuss the call as a group of officials and then come up with the correct call.  One ref didn't botch it, the whole crew did.  That's sad.  

But, as tough to take as it is, the call has to stand since the teams are no longer at the stadium.  No way would a judge over turn a game already in the books.  

 

[Thorn]

The problem I'm having accepting that the team needs to live with the refs' bad call is that, technically, the game was over and then the call was made. The clock was at zero, and that's it. It should be game over.

its a different deal if the game isn't over; I agree, live with the call. 

Except the game wasn't over.  A penalty was called on the last live play, which under the rules entitles them to an untimed down.

 

[Smack Tripper]

Awful lame buck pass by the governing athletic body. Should not have gone to court but incorrect administration of the game in a portion of the game with an indisputable line of demarcation should have been corrected 

 

[Jayrok]

Except the game wasn't over.  A penalty was called on the last live play, which under the rules entitles them to an untimed down.

Is that high school rules?  I thought under NCAA rules the half is not extended if the penalty is by the team in possession and the penalty includes a loss of down.  "Loss of down" being the caveat.  

 

[Sabertooth]

Parents ruin youth sports. The judge should laugh at them and just walk away. And the second linked story is even worse. Sorry your kid lost. In life.

Yep parents have absolutely ruined youth sports.  I refuse to play ball.  If that means my kid doesn't make the team or whatever, I'm ok with that.  Just a cesspool anyway.  

 

[Tom Servo]

That's not what I'm talking about.  What I'm saying is what's preventing the "winning" team from saying: "You know what?  That's a blown call that clearly and unambiguously gave the wrong team the win. They should move on not us."

There is precedent for the "winning" team forfeiting the game afterwards.

 

[Pipes]

Except the game wasn't over.  A penalty was called on the last live play, which under the rules entitles them to an untimed down.

Doesn't that only apply to a defensive penalty?

 

[Jayrod]

Doesn't that only apply to a defensive penalty?

I don't think it is written that way, but basically, yes.

 

[The Ref]

Yep parents have absolutely ruined youth sports.  I refuse to play ball.  If that means my kid doesn't make the team or whatever, I'm ok with that.  Just a cesspool anyway.  

I gave up pop warner 10 years ago because of a ration of crap I was getting from not just the parents but the president of one cities pop warner association.  

 

[AAABatteries]

There should not have been an untimed down.  Whether intentional grounding was a correct call or not isn't the issue - the clock ran out on the play and by the rule book they play under the game was over.

 

[Anarchy99]

The coach should have known the rule and should have brought a rule book to the game to show the refs. People laughed at me every year when I used to coach cause I would read the amended rule book and the league or state specific rules. I've whipped out the rule book in multiple sports over the years and avoided situations like this several times. 

 

[kutta]

Except the game wasn't over.  A penalty was called on the last live play, which under the rules entitles them to an untimed down.

I don't think that's true. From the article:

On the untimed down, Plainfield North tied the contest with a field goal and then went on to win the game in overtime. Per Rule 3-3-4 in the 2016 NFHS Football Rules Book, the game should have concluded on the final play of regulation and the untimed down should not have been awarded.

 

[tri-man 47]

I don't think that's true. From the article:

On the untimed down, Plainfield North tied the contest with a field goal and then went on to win the game in overtime. Per Rule 3-3-4 in the 2016 NFHS Football Rules Book, the game should have concluded on the final play of regulation and the untimed down should not have been awarded.

Correct ...the untimed down was not valid.  The game ended with the incomplete pass/penalty play.  A very hollow victory for Plainfield North.

 

[renesauz]

Ok, about the original story:  If it's true that this was a CLEAR violation of the rules (or more accurately, a clear misinterpretation of the rules by the officials), and it is CLEAR that, if the officials had administered the rules correctly the losing team (Fenwick) should have won, then I don't understand:  Why hasn't the winning team (Plainfield) simply forfeited and said "you are correct, the wrong call was made and the game should have ended. We'll go ahead and forfeit."

Aren't we teaching high school kids that rules are important?  Yes, the rule apparently is that the official's word is final, so the game shouldn't be reversed.  So no reversal.  But shouldn't a forfeit be on the table?  What am I missing?

Nothing. IN fact, this has long been a bone I have with pro sports. There are times when a clearly bad call has been made, and the team benefiting KNOWS the call is wrong yet keeps theeir mouth shut or even has a little giggle. (Thinking of phantom facemask).