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just watched a show on bernie kosar (1 Viewer)

BGP

Indians Fever
Kosar never fully recovered from the elbow injury he suffered when the Chiefs' Lloyd Burress sacked him in 1989. Belichick, as we all know, is ruthless when it comes to cutting veterans. He cut Milloy in New England after all. Kosar was probably going to have a fine career but we'll never know because he got hurt.

 

BlueOnion

Footballguy
Kosar was a very good and underapprechiated Qb.
:goodposting: To a lesser degree, it would have been like the Packers cutting Favre.

I AM NOT COMPARING TALENT HERE!

The faithful Cleveland fans really embraced Bernie and the fans were quite dispondent when Bernie spent game time sitting on the bench.

 

Frenchy Fuqua

Footballguy
For all the crowing Browns fans do about Kosar his career wasn't all that impressive. He made one Pro Bowl, threw for 20+ TDs only once and had a very pedestrian career Yards per Pass Attempt of 6.9. Include the fact that Bernie was a statue in the pocket and you have the makings of a very overrated QB. Bernie's big positive was that he rarely threw interceptions (87 in 126 NFL games). But in the playoffs he threw 10 in 9 games, 3 against the Broncos in the two biggest games of his career. Both losses. Belichick made the right decision.

 
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azgroover

Footballguy
For all the crowing Browns fans do about Kosar his career wasn't all that impressive. He made one Pro Bowl, threw for 20+ TDs only once and had a very pedestrian career Yards per Pass Attempt of 6.9. Include the fact that Bernie was a statue in the pocket and you have the makings of a very overrated QB. Bernie's big positive was that he rarely threw interceptions (87 in 126 NFL games). But in the playoffs he threw 10 in 9 games, 3 against the Broncos in the two biggest games of his career. Both losses. Belichick made the right decision.
:goodposting: Someone had to say it. All the Kosar love is very strange.

 

redman

Footballguy
For all the crowing Browns fans do about Kosar his career wasn't all that impressive. He made one Pro Bowl, threw for 20+ TDs only once and had a very pedestrian career Yards per Pass Attempt of 6.9. Include the fact that Bernie was a statue in the pocket and you have the makings of a very overrated QB. Bernie's big positive was that he rarely threw interceptions (87 in 126 NFL games). But in the playoffs he threw 10 in 9 games, 3 against the Broncos in the two biggest games of his career. Both losses. Belichick made the right decision.
The decision you're referring to is replacing him with Vinny Testaverde? :unsure:
 

Bad_Mo

Footballguy
he really got the short end of the stick in cleveland at the end of his career did'nt he?
I assume you have trouble sleeping and there was nothing else on the tube....? Or, you are a diehard Browns fan.
 

BGP

Indians Fever
For all the crowing Browns fans do about Kosar his career wasn't all that impressive. He made one Pro Bowl, threw for 20+ TDs only once and had a very pedestrian career Yards per Pass Attempt of 6.9. Include the fact that Bernie was a statue in the pocket and you have the makings of a very overrated QB. Bernie's big positive was that he rarely threw interceptions (87 in 126 NFL games). But in the playoffs he threw 10 in 9 games, 3 against the Broncos in the two biggest games of his career. Both losses. Belichick made the right decision.
Kosar also played in a different era offensively. Back in that day, it was very rare for a club to even have two 1000 yard receivers. I remember in 1994 the Vikings actually shocked the NFL by having WRs Carter and Reed catch 1000 yards. That was noteworthy back then. Today, if you don't have two 1000 yard WRs, they say something is wrong with your offense. In 1986, there were 8 1000 yard rushers. In 2005 there were 16. Kosar threw 16 TDs to 10 INTs in the playoffs - that is an excellent ratio for playoff football - there aren't many with a better ratio with at least as many games. Elway threw 27 TDs to 21 INTs in his playoff career by comparison.

In the end, his career was cut short by injury - nothing you can do.

 

Orange Crush

Footballguy
Bernie also played for Marty Schottenheimer and his run first, run second, throw occasionally offense. One playoff year the team had TWO 1,000 yard rushers. So Bernie's lack of Touchdown passes is hardly the slam people today think it is. And if you think otherwise, look at John Elway's TD totals: from '83 - '92 (his first 10 seasons in the league) Elway only threw for more than 20 TDs once ('85) and in that year he actually threw more INTs.

 

Carnifex

Footballguy
Not a Browns fan at all, but as a fan of football, Bernie Kosar was one of the greatest quarterbacks to watch. People can quote stats and pro-bowls but the fact is, when Bernie was under center, it always felt like there was a good chance the Browns were going to win. Sure, the didn't always win, but that feel was always there. That doesn't translate into raw data like a lot of people would like it to, but if you think he sucked, you never really saw him play.

 

CalBear

Footballguy
For all the crowing Browns fans do about Kosar his career wasn't all that impressive. He made one Pro Bowl, threw for 20+ TDs only once and had a very pedestrian career Yards per Pass Attempt of 6.9. Include the fact that Bernie was a statue in the pocket and you have the makings of a very overrated QB. Bernie's big positive was that he rarely threw interceptions (87 in 126 NFL games). But in the playoffs he threw 10 in 9 games, 3 against the Broncos in the two biggest games of his career. Both losses. Belichick made the right decision.
Kosar also played in a different era offensively. Back in that day, it was very rare for a club to even have two 1000 yard receivers. I remember in 1994 the Vikings actually shocked the NFL by having WRs Carter and Reed catch 1000 yards. That was noteworthy back then. Today, if you don't have two 1000 yard WRs, they say something is wrong with your offense. In 1986, there were 8 1000 yard rushers. In 2005 there were 16.
Are you really this clueless? How many teams had two 1000-yard wide receivers this year? Two, Indianapolis and Arizona. In passing yardage against his peers Kosar was in the top 10 only four times, and never in the top three. In his best yardage year, Marino threw for 900 more yards; in his second best, Moon threw for 1200 more. Kosar was never in the top 5 in passing TDs, and was in the top 10 only twice.

Kosar was a decent, above-average QB, nothing special.

 

Jackal

Footballguy
For all the crowing Browns fans do about Kosar his career wasn't all that impressive.  He made one Pro Bowl,  threw for 20+ TDs only once and had a very pedestrian career Yards per Pass Attempt of 6.9.  Include the fact that Bernie was a statue in the pocket and you have the makings of a very overrated QB.  Bernie's big positive was that he rarely threw interceptions (87 in 126 NFL games).  But in the playoffs he threw 10 in 9 games, 3 against the Broncos in the two biggest games of his career.  Both losses.  Belichick made the right decision.
Kosar also played in a different era offensively. Back in that day, it was very rare for a club to even have two 1000 yard receivers. I remember in 1994 the Vikings actually shocked the NFL by having WRs Carter and Reed catch 1000 yards. That was noteworthy back then. Today, if you don't have two 1000 yard WRs, they say something is wrong with your offense. In 1986, there were 8 1000 yard rushers. In 2005 there were 16.
Are you really this clueless? How many teams had two 1000-yard wide receivers this year? Two, Indianapolis and Arizona. In passing yardage against his peers Kosar was in the top 10 only four times, and never in the top three. In his best yardage year, Marino threw for 900 more yards; in his second best, Moon threw for 1200 more. Kosar was never in the top 5 in passing TDs, and was in the top 10 only twice.

Kosar was a decent, above-average QB, nothing special.
but he does have a super bowl ring unlike marino and moon
 

BGP

Indians Fever
For all the crowing Browns fans do about Kosar his career wasn't all that impressive.  He made one Pro Bowl,  threw for 20+ TDs only once and had a very pedestrian career Yards per Pass Attempt of 6.9.  Include the fact that Bernie was a statue in the pocket and you have the makings of a very overrated QB.  Bernie's big positive was that he rarely threw interceptions (87 in 126 NFL games).  But in the playoffs he threw 10 in 9 games, 3 against the Broncos in the two biggest games of his career.  Both losses.  Belichick made the right decision.
Kosar also played in a different era offensively. Back in that day, it was very rare for a club to even have two 1000 yard receivers. I remember in 1994 the Vikings actually shocked the NFL by having WRs Carter and Reed catch 1000 yards. That was noteworthy back then. Today, if you don't have two 1000 yard WRs, they say something is wrong with your offense. In 1986, there were 8 1000 yard rushers. In 2005 there were 16.
Are you really this clueless? How many teams had two 1000-yard wide receivers this year? Two, Indianapolis and Arizona. In passing yardage against his peers Kosar was in the top 10 only four times, and never in the top three. In his best yardage year, Marino threw for 900 more yards; in his second best, Moon threw for 1200 more. Kosar was never in the top 5 in passing TDs, and was in the top 10 only twice.

Kosar was a decent, above-average QB, nothing special.
Teams with a pair of 1000 yard receivers are much more common today. What did we have, 3 of them last year? That is a LOT. Kosar had his elbow wrecked in 1988. He wasn't the same QB after that. He DID win AFC MVP in 1986 tho.

 

Ministry of Pain

Footballguy
For all the crowing Browns fans do about Kosar his career wasn't all that impressive.  He made one Pro Bowl,  threw for 20+ TDs only once and had a very pedestrian career Yards per Pass Attempt of 6.9.  Include the fact that Bernie was a statue in the pocket and you have the makings of a very overrated QB.  Bernie's big positive was that he rarely threw interceptions (87 in 126 NFL games).  But in the playoffs he threw 10 in 9 games, 3 against the Broncos in the two biggest games of his career.  Both losses.  Belichick made the right decision.
Kosar also played in a different era offensively. Back in that day, it was very rare for a club to even have two 1000 yard receivers. I remember in 1994 the Vikings actually shocked the NFL by having WRs Carter and Reed catch 1000 yards. That was noteworthy back then. Today, if you don't have two 1000 yard WRs, they say something is wrong with your offense. In 1986, there were 8 1000 yard rushers. In 2005 there were 16. Kosar threw 16 TDs to 10 INTs in the playoffs - that is an excellent ratio for playoff football - there aren't many with a better ratio with at least as many games. Elway threw 27 TDs to 21 INTs in his playoff career by comparison.

In the end, his career was cut short by injury - nothing you can do.
The Marks Bros a decade earlier for Miami.
 

redman

Footballguy
For all the crowing Browns fans do about Kosar his career wasn't all that impressive.  He made one Pro Bowl,  threw for 20+ TDs only once and had a very pedestrian career Yards per Pass Attempt of 6.9.  Include the fact that Bernie was a statue in the pocket and you have the makings of a very overrated QB.  Bernie's big positive was that he rarely threw interceptions (87 in 126 NFL games).  But in the playoffs he threw 10 in 9 games, 3 against the Broncos in the two biggest games of his career.  Both losses.  Belichick made the right decision.
Kosar also played in a different era offensively. Back in that day, it was very rare for a club to even have two 1000 yard receivers. I remember in 1994 the Vikings actually shocked the NFL by having WRs Carter and Reed catch 1000 yards. That was noteworthy back then. Today, if you don't have two 1000 yard WRs, they say something is wrong with your offense. In 1986, there were 8 1000 yard rushers. In 2005 there were 16.
Are you really this clueless? How many teams had two 1000-yard wide receivers this year? Two, Indianapolis and Arizona. In passing yardage against his peers Kosar was in the top 10 only four times, and never in the top three. In his best yardage year, Marino threw for 900 more yards; in his second best, Moon threw for 1200 more. Kosar was never in the top 5 in passing TDs, and was in the top 10 only twice.

Kosar was a decent, above-average QB, nothing special.
Well he's no Kyle Boller, that's for sure!
 

CalBear

Footballguy
Teams with a pair of 1000 yard receivers are much more common today. What did we have, 3 of them last year? That is a LOT.
That doesn't change the fact that Kosar didn't excel relative to other QBs playing at the same time, and before his injury.
 

houndirish

Footballguy
I've never understood the love for Kosar either. He had a weak arm and was a sitting duck. Yes he seemed like a good leader on the field but Cleveland always seemed awfully enthralled with the guy. I thought he was a cut above average and from an opposing fan standpoint, I was never nervous at the thought of facing a Kosar led team.

 

Jackal

Footballguy
I've never understood the love for Kosar either. He had a weak arm and was a sitting duck. Yes he seemed like a good leader on the field but Cleveland always seemed awfully enthralled with the guy. I thought he was a cut above average and from an opposing fan standpoint, I was never nervous at the thought of facing a Kosar led team.
like it said in the show, he brought cleveland to how many afc championship games only to have the defense or byner's hands falter
 

houndirish

Footballguy
I'm not saying the guy sucked. I'm just saying I never thought he was all that great either.I'd also be cautious in lumping all those AFC title game appearances on Kosar's performances. Didn't the Browns have not one but two 1,000 yard backs (Mack and Byner) during one of those campaigns?

 

puqrag

Footballguy
If Kosar was so great, why didn't he ever get another starting job?
he went on to play behind aikman and marino, hall of fam qb's.another big reason kosar was such a hit was how he chose to enter the supplemental draft just so he could play for cleveland.

 

BlueOnion

Footballguy
another big reason kosar was such a hit was how he chose to enter the supplemental draft just so he could play for cleveland.
This is being understated as we are talking about the intimacy between the city of Cleveland and Bernie Kosar and how it suddenly changed when Belichick benched him.
 

Kosar

Footballguy
For all the crowing Browns fans do about Kosar his career wasn't all that impressive.  He made one Pro Bowl,  threw for 20+ TDs only once and had a very pedestrian career Yards per Pass Attempt of 6.9.  Include the fact that Bernie was a statue in the pocket and you have the makings of a very overrated QB.  Bernie's big positive was that he rarely threw interceptions (87 in 126 NFL games).  But in the playoffs he threw 10 in 9 games, 3 against the Broncos in the two biggest games of his career.  Both losses.  Belichick made the right decision.
Kosar also played in a different era offensively. Back in that day, it was very rare for a club to even have two 1000 yard receivers. I remember in 1994 the Vikings actually shocked the NFL by having WRs Carter and Reed catch 1000 yards. That was noteworthy back then. Today, if you don't have two 1000 yard WRs, they say something is wrong with your offense. In 1986, there were 8 1000 yard rushers. In 2005 there were 16. Kosar threw 16 TDs to 10 INTs in the playoffs - that is an excellent ratio for playoff football - there aren't many with a better ratio with at least as many games. Elway threw 27 TDs to 21 INTs in his playoff career by comparison.

In the end, his career was cut short by injury - nothing you can do.
Fuqua = :own3d:
 

Frenchy Fuqua

Footballguy
For all the crowing Browns fans do about Kosar his career wasn't all that impressive.  He made one Pro Bowl,  threw for 20+ TDs only once and had a very pedestrian career Yards per Pass Attempt of 6.9.  Include the fact that Bernie was a statue in the pocket and you have the makings of a very overrated QB.  Bernie's big positive was that he rarely threw interceptions (87 in 126 NFL games).  But in the playoffs he threw 10 in 9 games, 3 against the Broncos in the two biggest games of his career.  Both losses.  Belichick made the right decision.
Kosar also played in a different era offensively. Back in that day, it was very rare for a club to even have two 1000 yard receivers. I remember in 1994 the Vikings actually shocked the NFL by having WRs Carter and Reed catch 1000 yards. That was noteworthy back then. Today, if you don't have two 1000 yard WRs, they say something is wrong with your offense. In 1986, there were 8 1000 yard rushers. In 2005 there were 16. Kosar threw 16 TDs to 10 INTs in the playoffs - that is an excellent ratio for playoff football - there aren't many with a better ratio with at least as many games. Elway threw 27 TDs to 21 INTs in his playoff career by comparison.

In the end, his career was cut short by injury - nothing you can do.
Fuqua = :own3d:
Hmmm, okay. Here are Kosar's numbers compared to three other pretty good but certainly not great QBs from his era. Apparently there are quite a few revisionists in Cleveland.Bernie Kosar

Pro Bowls: 1

20+ TD seasons: 1

3,000 yds passing (seasons): 4

Career TD/INT ratio: 1.4

Career Yards per Attempt: 6.9

Dave Krieg

Pro Bowls: 3

20+ TD seasons: 5

3,000 yds passing (seasons): 6

Career TD/INT ratio: 1.3

Career Yards per Attempt: 7.2

Boomer Esiason

Pro Bowls: 4

20+ TD seasons: 5

3,000 yds passing (seasons): 7

Career TD/INT ratio: 1.3

Career Yards per Attempt: 7.3

Ken O’Brien

Pro Bowls: 2

20+ TD seasons: 2

3,000 yds passing (seasons): 4

Career/INT ratio: 1.3

Career Yards per Attempt: 7.0

Kosar is last or tied for last in every category but TD/INT ratio, which is also very close the others.

 

HangingInThere

Footballguy
Belichick made the right decision.
Actually, the decision was to replace Kosar with Todd Philcox.Kosar went on to lead the Cowboys to a victory the very next week (and played very well in that game).

No, Kosar does not belong in the hall of fame, and yes, he had his shortcomings. But he was also a winner -- more to the point, he was a MUCH better quarterback than Todd Philcox, for pete's sake.

 

Urinal Mint

Footballguy
He helped Dallas win a ring by filling in for an injured Troy Aikman in 1993. For that, I'll forever love him as a player.That, and he had such a sweet Fro-Mullet.

 

Kosar

Footballguy
For all the crowing Browns fans do about Kosar his career wasn't all that impressive.  He made one Pro Bowl,  threw for 20+ TDs only once and had a very pedestrian career Yards per Pass Attempt of 6.9.  Include the fact that Bernie was a statue in the pocket and you have the makings of a very overrated QB.  Bernie's big positive was that he rarely threw interceptions (87 in 126 NFL games).  But in the playoffs he threw 10 in 9 games, 3 against the Broncos in the two biggest games of his career.  Both losses.  Belichick made the right decision.
Kosar also played in a different era offensively. Back in that day, it was very rare for a club to even have two 1000 yard receivers. I remember in 1994 the Vikings actually shocked the NFL by having WRs Carter and Reed catch 1000 yards. That was noteworthy back then. Today, if you don't have two 1000 yard WRs, they say something is wrong with your offense. In 1986, there were 8 1000 yard rushers. In 2005 there were 16. Kosar threw 16 TDs to 10 INTs in the playoffs - that is an excellent ratio for playoff football - there aren't many with a better ratio with at least as many games. Elway threw 27 TDs to 21 INTs in his playoff career by comparison.

In the end, his career was cut short by injury - nothing you can do.
Fuqua = :own3d:
Hmmm, okay. Here are Kosar's numbers compared to three other pretty good but certainly not great QBs from his era. Apparently there are quite a few revisionists in Cleveland.Bernie Kosar

Pro Bowls: 1

20+ TD seasons: 1

3,000 yds passing (seasons): 4

Career TD/INT ratio: 1.4

Career Yards per Attempt: 6.9

Dave Krieg

Pro Bowls: 3

20+ TD seasons: 5

3,000 yds passing (seasons): 6

Career TD/INT ratio: 1.3

Career Yards per Attempt: 7.2

Boomer Esiason

Pro Bowls: 4

20+ TD seasons: 5

3,000 yds passing (seasons): 7

Career TD/INT ratio: 1.3

Career Yards per Attempt: 7.3

Ken O’Brien

Pro Bowls: 2

20+ TD seasons: 2

3,000 yds passing (seasons): 4

Career/INT ratio: 1.3

Career Yards per Attempt: 7.0

Kosar is last or tied for last in every category but TD/INT ratio, which is also very close the others.
Kosar owned the Steelers. That was good enough for me.And yes, I STILL miss those days. :bag:

 

Frenchy Fuqua

Footballguy
For all the crowing Browns fans do about Kosar his career wasn't all that impressive.  He made one Pro Bowl,  threw for 20+ TDs only once and had a very pedestrian career Yards per Pass Attempt of 6.9.  Include the fact that Bernie was a statue in the pocket and you have the makings of a very overrated QB.  Bernie's big positive was that he rarely threw interceptions (87 in 126 NFL games).  But in the playoffs he threw 10 in 9 games, 3 against the Broncos in the two biggest games of his career.  Both losses.  Belichick made the right decision.
Kosar also played in a different era offensively. Back in that day, it was very rare for a club to even have two 1000 yard receivers. I remember in 1994 the Vikings actually shocked the NFL by having WRs Carter and Reed catch 1000 yards. That was noteworthy back then. Today, if you don't have two 1000 yard WRs, they say something is wrong with your offense. In 1986, there were 8 1000 yard rushers. In 2005 there were 16. Kosar threw 16 TDs to 10 INTs in the playoffs - that is an excellent ratio for playoff football - there aren't many with a better ratio with at least as many games. Elway threw 27 TDs to 21 INTs in his playoff career by comparison.

In the end, his career was cut short by injury - nothing you can do.
Fuqua = :own3d:
Hmmm, okay. Here are Kosar's numbers compared to three other pretty good but certainly not great QBs from his era. Apparently there are quite a few revisionists in Cleveland.Bernie Kosar

Pro Bowls: 1

20+ TD seasons: 1

3,000 yds passing (seasons): 4

Career TD/INT ratio: 1.4

Career Yards per Attempt: 6.9

Dave Krieg

Pro Bowls: 3

20+ TD seasons: 5

3,000 yds passing (seasons): 6

Career TD/INT ratio: 1.3

Career Yards per Attempt: 7.2

Boomer Esiason

Pro Bowls: 4

20+ TD seasons: 5

3,000 yds passing (seasons): 7

Career TD/INT ratio: 1.3

Career Yards per Attempt: 7.3

Ken O’Brien

Pro Bowls: 2

20+ TD seasons: 2

3,000 yds passing (seasons): 4

Career/INT ratio: 1.3

Career Yards per Attempt: 7.0

Kosar is last or tied for last in every category but TD/INT ratio, which is also very close the others.
Kosar owned the Steelers. That was good enough for me.And yes, I STILL miss those days. :bag:
:goodposting: Fair enough.
 

softball

Footballguy
Help me out here. Because I am sometimes sketchy. Wasn't it Kosar who had the tBrowns at the 4 yard line TWO YEARS in a row to beat Denver and go on to the Super Bowl?And Ernest Byner fumbled and left the ball at the 1 TWO YEARS IN A ROW???Am I remembering that right??I don't think Sipe played for Marty. So I am pretty sure I'm right.Kosar was very good on the field. Not on the stat sheet.

 

gildawg

Footballguy
He helped Dallas win a ring by filling in for an injured Troy Aikman in 1993. For that, I'll forever love him as a player.

That, and he had such a sweet Fro-Mullet.
If I remember correctly he lead them in a come from behind victory in his first game with the Cowboys. And from what I read he only had two days to learn the playbook.The reasons Browns fans loved and still love Bernie is 1) he was from the area, 2) he wanted to play for them and positioned himself legally and without saying he wouldn't play for other teams to play for them, 3) his stats may have been average but the guy could call plays on the field like no other, and 4) I'm probably missing some.

I remember one of his teammates saying he was better calling his own plays on the field than when he got them from the sidelines. And I heard that was why Bill let him go, because he would change his plays on the field.

My wife graduated from the same school as him and they were perenial losers until Bernie was the starting QB, he called his own plays in HS and turned the team into a winner.

Yes I am a Browns fan, and grew up idolizing Bernie, but do I think he is the greatest QB ever? No. He was above average statically, but without a doubt one of the smartest players ever to grace the game.

 

BlueOnion

Footballguy
Help me out here. Because I am sometimes sketchy. Wasn't it Kosar who had the tBrowns at the 4 yard line TWO YEARS in a row to beat Denver and go on to the Super Bowl?

And Ernest Byner fumbled and left the ball at the 1 TWO YEARS IN A ROW???

Am I remembering that right??

I don't think Sipe played for Marty. So I am pretty sure I'm right.

Kosar was very good on the field. Not on the stat sheet.
You got the right guy and the right two AFC Championship Games.
 

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