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Keep 4-6 Keeper League vs. Redraft League Rankings (1 Viewer)

salmonstud

Footballguy
I primarily play in dynasty leagues these days but I do play in a few keeper leagues as well. Sometimes I struggle with how to rank rookies in keeper vs. redraft drafts.

In drafting for a keeper league (where you keep say 4-6 players) do you use more dynasty or redraft rankings for rookies?

Example - if Sammy Watkins ADP in redraft is 7.6 in 12 team PPR drafts & his ADP in dynasty startup drafts is 2.10....where would you target him in a keeper league start-up draft?

I generally draft more in line with dynasty rankings than redraft rankings for even small keeper leagues.

 
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Depends on the format for me. As much as I enjoy them, planning for the draft in keeper leagues can be a bit of a hassle because there obviously won't be any rankings or mocks that accurately reflect your league's situation. If you're talking about a league with a relatively short window on retaining your keepers (three years or so), then I'd rank the player slightly closer to the redraft league. With rookies, and in the Watkins example, I might put him closer to round five rather than round seven, since I think he's got a high ceiling but it might be a while (especially since Manuel's ability is still uncertain) before he reaches his potential. If you can keep him for longer than a few years, the longer you're allowed to do so, the closer that needle moves toward the dynasty ranking.

 
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A little more info is needed. Specifically, how are players designated as keepers? Do they just get put on your roster for free at the end of the draft, or do you have to give up a draft round?

In my keeper league we give up a draft slot that is two rounds higher than the previous year. So if Watkins is drafted in round 6 this year, he can be kept next year if the owner gives up a 4th round pick. The year after that he would be a 2nd-rounder, and then a year later he must be thrown back into the draft pool. In a league like this, rankings will be very similar to redraft.

But if you get to keep a player indefinitely without any penalty (not giving up draft slots) then the rankings would lean a lot closer to dynasty.

 
I play in a keep six where you lose the round the guy was picked and used to go towards dynasty rankings. I've had better success now that I'm almost all redraft. You don't have time to wait on guys. If Watkins puts up 900/6 this year, there's a better player to keep and then redraft Watkins. Sure it sucks when I had D. Thomas as an 18th rounder and now some other moke keeps him as a second, but I lost a lot of time waiting on Jon Stewart as a fifth rounder. Now I play to put the best team on the field that year and keepers will fall where they may.

 
Sorry guys - good points. I'm referring to keeper leagues in which you can keep players as many years as you want and no penalty for the round that you drafted them...simply keeping your best keepers.

 
I have been drafting closer to dynasty rankings but not 100% in line. I would probably take a rookie like Sammy Watkins somewhere between his ADP for dynasty & redraft leagues. Most of the owners in these leagues I'm in draft closer to redraft rankings. Just wanted to see the take on what others in the shark pool do.

 
Sorry guys - good points. I'm referring to keeper leagues in which you can keep players as many years as you want and no penalty for the round that you drafted them...simply keeping your best keepers.
I'd lean a little more towards dynasty rankings, but I'd still draft in "win this year" mode instead of "build for the future" mode. In other words, don't go crazy over youth.

 
It depends on my team. If my keepers are good, I draft to win this year. If they're not as good, I lean a lot more towers youth and upside.

 
It depends on my team. If my keepers are good, I draft to win this year. If they're not as good, I lean a lot more towers youth and upside.
My problem with this philosophy is that you are throwing guys back that can help you win this year, to keep potential. Unlike a dynasty where you have roster spots that never need to be used, you cut down to a roster of 4 or 6. That's all the production you can carry over and to mortgage that production for potential is very risky.

 
salmonstud said:
Sorry guys - good points. I'm referring to keeper leagues in which you can keep players as many years as you want and no penalty for the round that you drafted them...simply keeping your best keepers.
I play in a Keep 6 dynasty of this nature. You can keep a player his whole career. No draft pick penalties. Annual draft is comprised of incoming rookies and thrown back vets. League is 15+ years old and still has at least half of it's original members. --- Yes, there are leagues like this and this one is very viable. --- Will come back later and discuss more.

 
Gawain said:
John 14:6 said:
It depends on my team. If my keepers are good, I draft to win this year. If they're not as good, I lean a lot more towers youth and upside.
My problem with this philosophy is that you are throwing guys back that can help you win this year, to keep potential. Unlike a dynasty where you have roster spots that never need to be used, you cut down to a roster of 4 or 6. That's all the production you can carry over and to mortgage that production for potential is very risky.
Excellent point & post. Example of this dilemma - in my $150 keeper league I'm one of the top teams (won it last year) - I believe there is a chance that Roddy White & Sammy Watkins will be there when I pick at 1.7 (pick acquired through a trade). With your philosophy I'm guessing you would take White where I think most people would take Watkins. In another year Roddy's trade value will be much less where Watkins might net me another 1st round pick via trade.

 
salmonstud said:
Sorry guys - good points. I'm referring to keeper leagues in which you can keep players as many years as you want and no penalty for the round that you drafted them...simply keeping your best keepers.
I play in a Keep 6 dynasty of this nature. You can keep a player his whole career. No draft pick penalties. Annual draft is comprised of incoming rookies and thrown back vets. League is 15+ years old and still has at least half of it's original members. --- Yes, there are leagues like this and this one is very viable. --- Will come back later and discuss more.
I have one league with the exact same scenario with one twist - we draft 22 players & have no waiver wire. You can only improve your team during the regular season through trading with other owners. By having this setup - players that come out of nowhere that were not drafted are available in the following draft. Veteran players in our draft this year that went undrafted last year - (Julius Thomas, Ellington, Nick Foles). It makes the draft a little deeper due to the no waiver wire design.

 
If you keep four guys, then the ideal set of keepers is four guys you would have taken in the first round. That's very hard to do, obviously, but if you keep that in mind your team should be competitive every year.

Rookie receivers are overrated in keeper leagues. Yeah, it's great if the guy blows up his rookie year, but only a handful of receivers do that. If they don't, you end up with Tavon Austin, or maybe Cordarelle, who is a borderline keeper headed into 2014. That might be a good thing - some would say Cordarelle is a good keeper this year, others think he's overhyped. But lets say you take Sammy Watkins in the fifth, and he ends up putting up 65 catches, 900 yards and 5 TDs. This time next year, he's a borderline redraft fourth because everyone loves his upside, so you spend a keeper spot on him. If he doesn't pan out, you wasted a good pick in 2014 and a keeper spot in 2015 and you're still not quite sure what to do in 2016.

Rookie running backs with an immediate path to the job are more valuable than talented running backs. I overpaid a little for Marcus Lattimore in my keeper leagues last year, and it was a waste. But he had legitimate stud keepability if he panned out. I'd do the same with Carlos Hyde this year. I'd be less likely to spend an early mid pick on Christine Michael, though. He probably isn't going to get the job this year, and it's fairly likely Lynch is still around next year, too. He's still valuable, because he has legitimate top ten upside, but not like in a dynasty because if he's not ready to be a keeper by this time next year, you either have to throw him back or overpay to keep him.

You probably don't want to overpay for a quarterback, either. I mean, there's nothing wrong with keeping Aaron Rodgers for his entire career. But most years, in most leagues, you'll be able to draft the top QB in the late second, early third. So the good news is that you've locked up a stud QB, and other guys are going to be chasing QB points every year because the Rodgers/Brees/Manning owners never throw them back. But the bad news is that you're pretty much always using one of your keeper spots on a guy you would have taken in the third round. And that means it's hard to get your dream team of all first round type guys.

The same thing goes with committee backs. A guy like Shane Vereen, or Jeremy Hill, or Darren Sproles a few years ago.. those guys are placeholder keepers. You don't want to have to keep them every year. It's not the worst thing in the world to keep a Vereen, but it's hard to picture him returning first round value, so you're basically keeping someone who's just barely worth being kept. Try to avoid keeping sucky guys.

The only tight ends you should overpay for are Graham and maybe Gronk, imo. Julius sounds nice, and if I had him in a keep four I'd almost certainly keep him this year. But his value turns into a pumpkin when Manning retires, and while he's a borderline top 30 player, he's not close to top ten.

Be willing to overpay for a true stud RB or stud WR. If you can keep players forever, then receivers have an added advantage, just like in dynasty. But the flip side of that is that there will usually be a few very good veteran receivers available in the draft each year. None of the good running backs ever get thrown back into the draft. Ever. That effect definitely boosts the value of the good to very good running back over the good to very good receiver.

 
I play in a keep 4 league where you can keep them as long as you want and there are no penalty. I pretty much exclusively use redraft rankings.

I want to build the best team every year and I've already got one of the best set of keepers.

 
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Bostonfred,

I agree with the bulk of your post but disagree somewhat on the value of WR's in PPR. If I have a strong feeling about a rookie or 2nd year unproven player I will take him higher than what their redraft ADP is but not as high as their dynasty ADP. Often rookie WR's don't pan out but by taking them you can hit a home run. In the keeper league I mentioned earlier (keep 6 league) I took AJ Green with my 1st round pick & he hasn't left my roster. I try to load up on rookies in the mid rounds vs. ho hum veteran players. Couple didn't pan out but hit on K.Allen & Josh Gordon. This year it will be hard for me to pass on Sammy Watkins to take Roddy White or DeSean Jackson.

 
It'd be interesting to talk to the guys that do a "lose the round" type system, because it causes a big difference in value.

If anyone's curious, here's the link to our spreadsheet, which shows which guys are valued more.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmXEIUAMb7WkdF9HY1JTbXpkWmltRmJSZ3FyMFhfSlE&usp=sharing

It's a 2QB, so Rodgers in the 10th is pretty easily the best thing out there, but it's interesting to see the different valuation between a guy like Forte in the first, to a guy like Vereen in the 4th, to a guy like Joique Bell in the 9th. Not only do you have to figure out the value on the player to be kept, you also need to know the value of the player you would have drafted that round and the value of the next best guy you could have kept.

 
Play to win but exit value is very important. If you draft a young upside guy and your team is in need of a solid player later you can trade em.

I play in 2 leagues a 3 keeper and a 5 keeper. I look at redraft and dynasty rankings but I certainly favor when youth collides with opportunity.

 
Youth is overrated in keepers unless you're looking at a true stud. Keep the better player unless he's on his last legs. I might be in the minority on this forum, but I'd keep Marshawn Lynch over Keenan Allen, and wouldn't think twice. Lynch is a bona fide stud. Allen is an above average keeper, but mostly because of youth and potential. If you think Allen is a sure fire top ten receiver next year, then sure, keep him. But if you think he's a borderline top 20 guy, then take the guy who's a late first/early second round redraft pick and don't get fancy.

Obviously if you're in a total rebuild and Lynch is your only good keeper, then do your best to trade him for youth. But in most cases, keeper teams aren't SO far apart that anyone's truly out of contention.

 
Youth is overrated in keepers unless you're looking at a true stud. Keep the better player unless he's on his last legs. I might be in the minority on this forum, but I'd keep Marshawn Lynch over Keenan Allen, and wouldn't think twice. Lynch is a bona fide stud. Allen is an above average keeper, but mostly because of youth and potential. If you think Allen is a sure fire top ten receiver next year, then sure, keep him. But if you think he's a borderline top 20 guy, then take the guy who's a late first/early second round redraft pick and don't get fancy.

Obviously if you're in a total rebuild and Lynch is your only good keeper, then do your best to trade him for youth. But in most cases, keeper teams aren't SO far apart that anyone's truly out of contention.
Sure, but would you keep Lynch and sacrifice your 2nd pick or Allen and sacrifice your 20th? (Their relative values in the league I posted above)

That's why I prefer the lose the round concept more than just taking 4-6 rounds off the top.

 

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