Keeper League Trade Dispute (1 Viewer)

[pantagrapher]

OK, I'm going to lay this out as I understand it and let you guys make the call (I've been told that I will be one of three league members selected to resolve this dispute):

This is the 5th year of a keeper league. Teams can keep five players picked in or after the fourth round. Team 1 and Team 2 made a trade last season, part of which being Team 2 traded its 5th round pick in this year's draft to Team 1. Easy enough.

Two weeks ago our draft order for this season was set. Last week we declared our keepers. This Saturday we draft.

Team 2 made a trade today with Team 3, swapping draft positions for the entire draft.

Team 1 is essentially claiming that Team 2's 5th round pick belongs to him and cannot be traded (this trade would move the disputed pick down 6 spots in Round 5).

So this is basically a very specific question about when this pick technically changes hands. I can certainly see both sides of this. If I had to make a decision right now, I'd probably come down on the side of Team 1—that is, that the draft pick consideration in last year's trade is processed when the draft order is set. But I am open to opposing viewpoints.

 

[Guest]

I think it definitely belongs to Team 1.

If Team 2 had traded, instead, his 5th round pick for Team 3's 7th & 9th round pick, Team 1 wouldn't be forced to accept that. Or put in very simple terms, Team 2 doesn't have the rights to trade something which he already traded away. It's no longer his to dispose of.

 

[SwampDawg]

Yes, Team 1 is correct. This shouldn't even be a question. Team 2 doesn't even have a 5th round pick this year in my opinion.

 

[pantagrapher]

Thanks for the input, guys.

 

[Bobcat10]

Agree with Team 1.

Just so I understand the 2nd trade.....did team 2 essentially move back in the odd rounds and pick back up a 5th that belonged to team 3...and team 3 moved up in the odd rounds but now has no 5th?

 

[pantagrapher]

Agree with Team 1.Just so I understand the 2nd trade.....did team 2 essentially move back in the odd rounds and pick back up a 5th that belonged to team 3...and team 3 moved up in the odd rounds but now has no 5th?

No, basically Team 2 is trading as if he has all his picks. So Team 3 moves up to take Team 2's 5th rounder and Team 2 moves down into Team 3's 5th round spot. Then on draft day Team 2 cedes his 5th rounder to Team 1 as per his trade from last year.I see this as Team 2 making two separate trades with the same 5th round pick. I don't think that should be allowed.

 

[Billy Bats]

It's team 1's pick, after the draft position swap, team 3 doesn't have a 5th round pick.

 

[pantagrapher]

It's team 1's pick, after the draft position swap, team 3 doesn't have a 5th round pick.

Well, obviously we wouldn't penalize Team 3. If we determine the 5th rounder has already changed hands, the trade agreement is voided.

 

[dparker713]

THe rights to team 2's 5th round pick transferred as soon as the trade was processed last year. Pretty simple really.

 

[Billy Bats]

It's team 1's pick, after the draft position swap, team 3 doesn't have a 5th round pick.

Well, obviously we wouldn't penalize Team 3. If we determine the 5th rounder has already changed hands, the trade agreement is voided.

I'm not trying to penalize team 3, just saying that there wasn't a 5th round pick for team 2 to trade. So team 3 has to know before he trades entire postions that he wouldn't have a 5th rounder.

 

[pantagrapher]

THe rights to team 2's 5th round pick transferred as soon as the trade was processed last year. Pretty simple really.

Team 2 will argue that nothing has changed since on draft day Team 1 still has the rights to Team 2's 5th round pick.

 

[Billy Bats]

THe rights to team 2's 5th round pick transferred as soon as the trade was processed last year. Pretty simple really.

Team 2 will argue that nothing has changed since on draft day Team 1 still has the rights to Team 2's 5th round pick.

Your counter argument is it did change, two weeks ago when the draft order was set, the 5th round pick of team 2 was identified which belongs to team 1. Therefore team 1 knows what pick he receives in his trade. Once that happened, you can't penalize team 1 by a secondary trade of that same pick.

 

[pantagrapher]

I think if the two teams are dead set on making a trade, I'll say the only acceptable way to handle this situation is to swap draft positions for every round except round 5. Team 3 retains his current draft position for that round but is free to flip-flop with Team 2 for all other rounds, if he chooses.

 

[pantagrapher]

THe rights to team 2's 5th round pick transferred as soon as the trade was processed last year. Pretty simple really.

Team 2 will argue that nothing has changed since on draft day Team 1 still has the rights to Team 2's 5th round pick.

Your counter argument is it did change, two weeks ago when the draft order was set, the 5th round pick of team 2 was identified which belongs to team 1. Therefore team 1 knows what pick he receives in his trade. Once that happened, you can't penalize team 1 by a secondary trade of that same pick.

Totally agree here. This business of trading the same thing twice won't fly. I just need to make sure I can explain it and anticipate any counter argument.

 

[dparker713]

THe rights to team 2's 5th round pick transferred as soon as the trade was processed last year. Pretty simple really.

Team 2 will argue that nothing has changed since on draft day Team 1 still has the rights to Team 2's 5th round pick.

Team 2 is wrong. He is trying to do a substitution and the items in question are unique and therefore cannot be deemed interchangeable. Ask Team 2 this question, when the deal was finalized last year, what items of value did he give up? You could also cite the UCC to him that though the precise pick was not known when the deal was finalized, there was sufficient information in the deal to identify the deal at a later date and therefore the terms of the deal are enforceable.Basically, Team 2 is being an ######.

 

[Billy Bats]

THe rights to team 2's 5th round pick transferred as soon as the trade was processed last year. Pretty simple really.

Team 2 will argue that nothing has changed since on draft day Team 1 still has the rights to Team 2's 5th round pick.

Your counter argument is it did change, two weeks ago when the draft order was set, the 5th round pick of team 2 was identified which belongs to team 1. Therefore team 1 knows what pick he receives in his trade. Once that happened, you can't penalize team 1 by a secondary trade of that same pick.

Totally agree here. This business of trading the same thing twice won't fly. I just need to make sure I can explain it and anticipate any counter argument.

I'm co-commissioner in my league, isn't it amazing the things people will try?? Even as cut and dry as many things are, people will argue for their side until they're blue in the face. I wonder why I do it some times. Good luck!

 

[dparker713]

THe rights to team 2's 5th round pick transferred as soon as the trade was processed last year. Pretty simple really.

Team 2 will argue that nothing has changed since on draft day Team 1 still has the rights to Team 2's 5th round pick.

Your counter argument is it did change, two weeks ago when the draft order was set, the 5th round pick of team 2 was identified which belongs to team 1. Therefore team 1 knows what pick he receives in his trade. Once that happened, you can't penalize team 1 by a secondary trade of that same pick.

Totally agree here. This business of trading the same thing twice won't fly. I just need to make sure I can explain it and anticipate any counter argument.

The rights to that pick were exchanged at the time the deal was made last year, it did not occur when the order was set.

 

[Billy Bats]

THe rights to team 2's 5th round pick transferred as soon as the trade was processed last year. Pretty simple really.

Team 2 will argue that nothing has changed since on draft day Team 1 still has the rights to Team 2's 5th round pick.

Your counter argument is it did change, two weeks ago when the draft order was set, the 5th round pick of team 2 was identified which belongs to team 1. Therefore team 1 knows what pick he receives in his trade. Once that happened, you can't penalize team 1 by a secondary trade of that same pick.

Totally agree here. This business of trading the same thing twice won't fly. I just need to make sure I can explain it and anticipate any counter argument.

The rights to that pick were exchanged at the time the deal was made last year, it did not occur when the order was set.

Correct, I was implying the value of the pick was set when the draft order was confirmed.

 

[pantagrapher]

THe rights to team 2's 5th round pick transferred as soon as the trade was processed last year. Pretty simple really.

Team 2 will argue that nothing has changed since on draft day Team 1 still has the rights to Team 2's 5th round pick.

Team 2 is wrong. He is trying to do a substitution and the items in question are unique and therefore cannot be deemed interchangeable. Ask Team 2 this question, when the deal was finalized last year, what items of value did he give up? You could also cite the UCC to him that though the precise pick was not known when the deal was finalized, there was sufficient information in the deal to identify the deal at a later date and therefore the terms of the deal are enforceable.

Basically, Team 2 is being an ######.

I didn't want to influence anyone's input, so I didn't mention initially that yes, Team 2 is that guy in our league. Ridiculous, constant trade offers. Pushing every limit. Don't get me wrong, he's a great guy and we love him—he does all this in good humor—but I know he'll make us to lay out some airtight logic on this one before he folds.

 

[Snotbubbles]

THe rights to team 2's 5th round pick transferred as soon as the trade was processed last year. Pretty simple really.

Team 2 will argue that nothing has changed since on draft day Team 1 still has the rights to Team 2's 5th round pick.

Team 2 has no right to trade the pick that was formerly their 5th round pick. The moment they made the trade the previous season, it ceased to be Team 2s 5th round pick and became Team 1s 5th round pick via Team 2.

 

[dparker713]

THe rights to team 2's 5th round pick transferred as soon as the trade was processed last year. Pretty simple really.

Team 2 will argue that nothing has changed since on draft day Team 1 still has the rights to Team 2's 5th round pick.

Team 2 is wrong. He is trying to do a substitution and the items in question are unique and therefore cannot be deemed interchangeable. Ask Team 2 this question, when the deal was finalized last year, what items of value did he give up? You could also cite the UCC to him that though the precise pick was not known when the deal was finalized, there was sufficient information in the deal to identify the deal at a later date and therefore the terms of the deal are enforceable.

Basically, Team 2 is being an ######.

I didn't want to influence anyone's input, so I didn't mention initially that yes, Team 2 is that guy in our league. Ridiculous, constant trade offers. Pushing every limit. Don't get me wrong, he's a great guy and we love him—he does all this in good humor—but I know he'll make us to lay out some airtight logic on this one before he folds.

Just use the upcoming NFL draft as a real world example. Pick 21. TB (via Minn via Buff) You get the idea. Team 2s picks never change. They are always Team 2s picks. The rights to exercise those picks and retain the player have changed hands. So, he is not trying to give Team 1 his 5th round selection, he's trying to give Team 1 Team 3s 5th round selection - The transaction he wants is: Pick 57. Team 1 (via Team 2 via Team 3) as opposed to Pick 52. Team 1 (via Team 2)

 

[Bobcat10]

Another solution would be for the league to agree to give team 3 a compensatory pick at the end of round 5 with everyone clearly understanding this will not happen again (as a pick traded is a pick traded).

We trade 20+ picks every year in my dynasty league and when a pick is dealt, it is dealt, and could be dealt again by the new person that owns the pick. You can only trade what you currently have.

 

[pantagrapher]

Another solution would be for the league to agree to give team 3 a compensatory pick at the end of round 5 with everyone clearly understanding this will not happen again (as a pick traded is a pick traded).We trade 20+ picks every year in my dynasty league and when a pick is dealt, it is dealt, and could be dealt again by the new person that owns the pick. You can only trade what you currently have.

I haven't heard anything further on the matter, so I assume Team 2 opted to back down and try to work a different deal. Team 1 is actually the commissioner, so the draft pick trade couldn't go through without him processing it. So it looks like our first league crisis in 5 years was narrowly averted.

 

[Wrigley]

Another solution would be for the league to agree to give team 3 a compensatory pick at the end of round 5 with everyone clearly understanding this will not happen again (as a pick traded is a pick traded).

We trade 20+ picks every year in my dynasty league and when a pick is dealt, it is dealt, and could be dealt again by the new person that owns the pick. You can only trade what you currently have.

I haven't heard anything further on the matter, so I assume Team 2 opted to back down and try to work a different deal. Team 1 is actually the commissioner, so the draft pick trade couldn't go through without him processing it. So it looks like our first league crisis in 5 years was narrowly averted.

Really, seems like we have 2 a year.

 

[Billy Bats]

Another solution would be for the league to agree to give team 3 a compensatory pick at the end of round 5 with everyone clearly understanding this will not happen again (as a pick traded is a pick traded).

We trade 20+ picks every year in my dynasty league and when a pick is dealt, it is dealt, and could be dealt again by the new person that owns the pick. You can only trade what you currently have.

I haven't heard anything further on the matter, so I assume Team 2 opted to back down and try to work a different deal. Team 1 is actually the commissioner, so the draft pick trade couldn't go through without him processing it. So it looks like our first league crisis in 5 years was narrowly averted.

Really, seems like we have 2 a year.

We seem to have 2 a week! What a bunch of pains in the asses I deal with.