Keeper League- trading players you can't keep. (1 Viewer)

[SSOG]

I have a personal situation that I figured could turn into a meaningful strategy discussion. First, some background- I play in an 8-team league (yes, they exist) with limited keeper rules. We're allowed to keep 3 players every season, but each player costs a draft pick 2 rounds higher than what they cost the year before. 1st/2nd round keepers can't be kept, and UFAs keep for a 22nd round pick (the last round of the draft, so basically for "free"). Anyway, with this setup, it's not just a matter of identifying who you think will score the most points... it's identifying who will outperform their keeper cost by the most. Ron Dayne might be a better keeper than Steven Jackson if Dayne keeps for free and Jackson keeps for a 3rd rounder, for instance.

Anyway, I have found myself absolutely stacked with keeper prospects- I count 10 guys who would be kept if they were on another team. Obviously, I can only keep 3 of these players. I'm trying to get some value in return for the other 7, rather than just letting them re-enter the draft pool. Since player-for-player trades make no sense here (the only player who's an improvement over my top 3 keepers is Larry Johnson for a 20th, and his owner won't part with him), I'm trying to deal my keepers for draft picks. Let's say I have Galloway, who keeps for free. Let's say you're targeting Galloway in the 6th round. I could send you Galloway for a 10th rounder- you get value (Galloway for a 10th round pick), I get value (a free 10th round pick, since I'd let Galloway walk anyway), both of us wind up happy.

In this situation, what's a fair asking price for a player that I'm unable to keep anyway? 3 rounds below their ADP? 6 rounds below their ADP? If you're in my position, what's the lowest you settle for? If you're in my leaguemate's position, what's the highest you offer? Could you ever consider offering a pick BEFORE where you'd draft a player (for instance, I have Gates who keeps for a 15th rounder, who will be a stud keeper for years to come. If you think he's a 2nd-round type player, would you still offer a 1st rounder for him since your 1st rounder has no keeper potential and Gates has INSANE keeper potential)? Would I be better off just letting my players re-enter the pool rather than strengthening my competition? Am I trying to scam my leaguemates here, or am I justified in asking something for a player I can't keep anyway?

 

[Bri]

I'd double up, 2 for 1 trades, if I could. That might be hard to pull off though.

I'd just make sure to ask two people and let their replies determine market value.

Re-Gates, I'd let someone waste a first probably in the draft. IMO he should be a keeper but....

Trade and trade again, 2 picks for 1? You have enough picks for your team so I'd keep trading up to somewhere around 3rd 4th. Probably have better luck than trying to trade up to 1st or 2nd and it's likely where a bunch of major dropoffs occur.

 

[Mapmaker]

If I'm in your league I let you hold your keepers and wait till you dump off the rest ... you obviously can't hold everyone, so I'd wait and force you to dump .. I think yer just scammin' everyone and wouldn't buy into buying false value

 

[Doug Drinen]

I'm trying to deal my keepers for draft picks. Let's say I have Galloway, who keeps for free. Let's say you're targeting Galloway in the 6th round. I could send you Galloway for a 10th rounder- you get value (Galloway for a 10th round pick), I get value (a free 10th round pick, since I'd let Galloway walk anyway), both of us wind up happy.

You're missing a potentially very big part of the cost from his end. If he gives you a 10th rounder for Galloway, he loses not only the 10th rounder, but also a keeper slot. So he's really trading a 10th rounder for Galloway plus whoever he would have kept but can't now. If his third-best keeper is Reche Caldwell, he's a good trading partner. But if he's got Houshmandzadeh who keeps for a 15th, or Matt Jones who keeps for an 18th or something like that, then there is no way he'll be interested in giving you a 10th for Galloway.

 

[Doug Drinen]

If I'm in your league I let you hold your keepers and wait till you dump off the rest ... you obviously can't hold everyone, so I'd wait and force you to dump watch my leaguemates get good value from you with win-win deals .. I think yer just scammin' everyone and wouldn't buy into buying false value

Fixed.

 

[AhrnCityPahnder]

Good topic, I'm in the same boat and will need to make some deals soon.

 

[IndyHavoc]

...

Would I be better off just letting my players re-enter the pool rather than strengthening my competition? Am I trying to scam my leaguemates here, or am I justified in asking something for a player I can't keep anyway?

Bolded the part that I was going to point out. It's a tough situation to guage value from. I'm also in a Keeper league with somewhat similar situation. Each year I end up with a couple good keepers and usually ones that are FAR superior to some other teams slotted "keepers." I've had pretty good luck in dealing these away, typically not for an extra pick, but a bump up. So, my 4th for their 3rd, etc.I definitely like the advice someone dropped about always offering a like deal to 2 partners, see how they both respond. Hadn't ever really thought of that.

I don't think you're scamming anyone. Bottom line is a GM will do what he needs to do to better his team. But do try to keep in mind the bolded part. I've also let possible keeper trade-bait go back into the pool, because I could see the tier splits and where my draft slot was. If I'm sitting on the edge of a tier for RB's or QB's (this is a 2 QB league), then I'll usually NOT do the trade. This puts 1 more player into the pool and pushes that edge out, giving me more room to make my "last guy in the tier" picks.

 

[SSOG]

I'd double up, 2 for 1 trades, if I could. That might be hard to pull off though.

I'd just make sure to ask two people and let their replies determine market value.

Re-Gates, I'd let someone waste a first probably in the draft. IMO he should be a keeper but....

Trade and trade again, 2 picks for 1? You have enough picks for your team so I'd keep trading up to somewhere around 3rd 4th. Probably have better luck than trying to trade up to 1st or 2nd and it's likely where a bunch of major dropoffs occur.

Here's the problem with 2-for-1 picks. I've charted and ranked everyone's keepers, and according to my projections, there's only two keepers in the entire league that I like better than my top 3-4. I have Gates (15th), Chester Taylor (free), Steven Jackson (7th), Ron Dayne (free), Santana Moss (8th), and Joey Galloway (free). The only keepers I like better than any of those are Larry Johnson (20th, and his owner won't let him go for any price) and Reggie Wayne (14th). So bundling up two keepers and trading for a better keeper doesn't really do me any good. For the most part, I'm looking for upgrades in the draft, because that's all that most teams have to offer me that I could actually use.

I'm trying to deal my keepers for draft picks. Let's say I have Galloway, who keeps for free. Let's say you're targeting Galloway in the 6th round. I could send you Galloway for a 10th rounder- you get value (Galloway for a 10th round pick), I get value (a free 10th round pick, since I'd let Galloway walk anyway), both of us wind up happy.

You're missing a potentially very big part of the cost from his end. If he gives you a 10th rounder for Galloway, he loses not only the 10th rounder, but also a keeper slot. So he's really trading a 10th rounder for Galloway plus whoever he would have kept but can't now. If his third-best keeper is Reche Caldwell, he's a good trading partner. But if he's got Houshmandzadeh who keeps for a 15th, or Matt Jones who keeps for an 18th or something like that, then there is no way he'll be interested in giving you a 10th for Galloway.

That's a very good point, although there are a couple of teams that do not even have 3 viable keepers. Usual strategy at that point is to pick up whoever is a free agent at the point and keep them for free, but that's usually a very weak move (for instance, last year someone picked up Putzier off the street and designated him as his third keeper).So assuming that the keeper slot isn't a factor in the discussion, what do you think is fair market value for a player? Again, assuming you had Galloway targeted in the 6th, and he keeps for free, and you don't have a third viable keeper, what would be the highest pick you would be willing to offer for him? If you were me, what would be the lowest pick that you would accept for him before it just becomes a better strategy to let him re-enter the draft pool rather than strengthening a rival (remember, it's an 8-team league, so I'll be facing everyone twice)?

 

[Doug Drinen]

That's a very good point, although there are a couple of teams that do not even have 3 viable keepers.

Those are the teams to target, then.

So assuming that the keeper slot isn't a factor in the discussion, what do you think is fair market value for a player?

Same as fair market value in any other situation: whatever you can get.I can't imagine Galloway is too hot a commodity, even if he keeps for free, but I know you were just using him as an example. I'd just explain the situation to your potential trade partners just like you did here: "with your 10th round pick, you can either draft Amani Toomer or you can get Joey Galloway."

In terms of what's the least you'd accept, I'd start the negotiation at two to four rounds lower than the round he'd be drafted in, but I think you should take anything you can get. The only teams that are going to be interested in this are teams with few viable keepers. If you're sitting on Gates, LJ, another stud keeper, and a full complement of draft picks, those teams are not your main competition. Even if all you can get is a 20th rounder from them, you're picking up an extra lottery ticket (because a young guy picked in the 20th round has a lot of huge future keeper value if he pans out) and taking one away from him.

 

[SSOG]

That's a very good point, although there are a couple of teams that do not even have 3 viable keepers.

Those are the teams to target, then.

So assuming that the keeper slot isn't a factor in the discussion, what do you think is fair market value for a player?

Same as fair market value in any other situation: whatever you can get.I can't imagine Galloway is too hot a commodity, even if he keeps for free, but I know you were just using him as an example. I'd just explain the situation to your potential trade partners just like you did here: "with your 10th round pick, you can either draft Amani Toomer or you can get Joey Galloway."

In terms of what's the least you'd accept, I'd start the negotiation at two to four rounds lower than the round he'd be drafted in, but I think you should take anything you can get. The only teams that are going to be interested in this are teams with few viable keepers. If you're sitting on Gates, LJ, another stud keeper, and a full complement of draft picks, those teams are not your main competition. Even if all you can get is a 20th rounder from them, you're picking up an extra lottery ticket (because a young guy picked in the 20th round has a lot of huge future keeper value if he pans out) and taking one away from him.

With roster limits and the way that everything pans out, I probably won't just get a free draft pick (and even if I did, I'd just have to cut someone immediately afterwards). The usual procedure is to trade my lowest remaining pick and the keeper for whatever the agreed-upon price was (to make sure that nobody winds up with more than or fewer than 22 players after the draft). As a result, I don't think trading a 22nd rounder and Joey Galloway for a 20th rounder is a very smart move on my part, either.Also, I disagree with the "take whatever you can get" mentality because MY TEAM IS STRENGTHENED by letting a player re-enter the draft pool (much like IndyHavoc described). It just becomes a question of when is my team strengthened more by letting him go than it is by moving up a couple of rounds?

And while teams with no viable keepers might not seem like my primary competition, wonky stuff happens every year. I'd rather not let a team win simply because I gave away someone for far less than he was worth.

 

[Warpig]

If I'm in your league I let you hold your keepers and wait till you dump off the rest ... you obviously can't hold everyone, so I'd wait and force you to dump .. I think yer just scammin' everyone and wouldn't buy into buying false value

Me too. I'd wait until you were forced to drop them.

 

[glumpy]

I'm trying to deal my keepers for draft picks. Let's say I have Galloway, who keeps for free. Let's say you're targeting Galloway in the 6th round. I could send you Galloway for a 10th rounder- you get value (Galloway for a 10th round pick), I get value (a free 10th round pick, since I'd let Galloway walk anyway), both of us wind up happy.

You're missing a potentially very big part of the cost from his end. If he gives you a 10th rounder for Galloway, he loses not only the 10th rounder, but also a keeper slot. So he's really trading a 10th rounder for Galloway plus whoever he would have kept but can't now. If his third-best keeper is Reche Caldwell, he's a good trading partner. But if he's got Houshmandzadeh who keeps for a 15th, or Matt Jones who keeps for an 18th or something like that, then there is no way he'll be interested in giving you a 10th for Galloway.

Absolutely true. I'm in a league with similar keeper rules to what you describe, and what you have to do to balance is to make sure that your trade is actually a pick for a pick. Technically, you have no keepers at this point (until you declare), so what you would be dealing is the rights to keep Galloway, maybe along with your 20th round pick, in return for their 10th rounder. What it's actually worth is entirely up to your leaguemates and their teams. With only 8 teams it's a buyers market--presumably all of them have some appealing keeper prospects. It's certainly not a sellers market as they could all make you drop a player simply for spite if you're asking more than they like. Your best edge for any trades is if somehow one of your other owners had two viable keepers who both were 10th round values--at that point you can offer a trade which suits you and enables him to keep both.

edit: unless your rules stipulate that you HAVE to keep a certain number--but then it's still an open book on value.

That's a very good point, although there are a couple of teams that do not even have 3 viable keepers.

 

[Yenrub]

Keep these ideas coming!

My 16 team league allows us to something similar. We can keep up to 4 players.

My 12 team doesn’t, we have to declare our two keepers before trading opens.

 

[SSOG]

If I'm in your league I let you hold your keepers and wait till you dump off the rest ... you obviously can't hold everyone, so I'd wait and force you to dump .. I think yer just scammin' everyone and wouldn't buy into buying false value

Me too. I'd wait until you were forced to drop them.

I won't be forced to drop them. Any players who are on my team and not designated "keepers" will all wind up back in the draft pool. To use the Galloway/6th rounder comparison... either you trade me a 10th rounder for Galloway, or I keep him on my team just to spite you and you have to draft him in the 6th.

edit: unless your rules stipulate that you HAVE to keep a certain number--but then it's still an open book on value.

Our rules do, in fact, state that you HAVE to keep a certain number. In fact, there are actually penalties for failing to declare 3 keepers by the deadline. If you don't designate 3 keepers, then you will automatically have your three highest-scoring keepable players kept, regardless of what they keep for. This means if you got Peyton Manning in the 3rd, and he was your highest scoring player, and you don't designate keepers... then you're keeping Peyton for a 1st round pick this year.Also, despite the fact that it's an 8-team league, I still feel like in my case, it's a seller's market. I am stocked *to the gills* with high-quality keepers, but that's certainly not the case for the rest of the league. There are going to be some pretty shoddy players kept, if nothing changes. At least, that's the way I see it. Hopefully I'll be able to convince my leaguemates that they could greatly improve their team by dealing with me.

 

[Yenrub]

Galloway is your 4th best player, but you can only keep 3.

You think he is worth a 6th round pick but are willing to take a 10th.

You are getting something for nothing, while the other guy gets a discount.

 

[Verbal Kint]

I'm trying to deal my keepers for draft picks. Let's say I have Galloway, who keeps for free. Let's say you're targeting Galloway in the 6th round. I could send you Galloway for a 10th rounder- you get value (Galloway for a 10th round pick), I get value (a free 10th round pick, since I'd let Galloway walk anyway), both of us wind up happy.

You're missing a potentially very big part of the cost from his end. If he gives you a 10th rounder for Galloway, he loses not only the 10th rounder, but also a keeper slot. So he's really trading a 10th rounder for Galloway plus whoever he would have kept but can't now. If his third-best keeper is Reche Caldwell, he's a good trading partner. But if he's got Houshmandzadeh who keeps for a 15th, or Matt Jones who keeps for an 18th or something like that, then there is no way he'll be interested in giving you a 10th for Galloway.

My thoughts exactly. I'm in a 14 team, 3-keeper league and even then most teams have 3 keepers they are comfortable with, that they are not looking for my throwaways.

I'd imagine in an 8 team, most everyone should have 3 viable keepers, even in the format you describe.

SSOG, could you post a couple of the rosters of the other owners'?

 

[Mapmaker]

If I'm in your league I let you hold your keepers and wait till you dump off the rest ... you obviously can't hold everyone, so I'd wait and force you to dump .. I think yer just scammin' everyone and wouldn't buy into buying false value

Me too. I'd wait until you were forced to drop them.

I won't be forced to drop them. Any players who are on my team and not designated "keepers" will all wind up back in the draft pool. To use the Galloway/6th rounder comparison... either you trade me a 10th rounder for Galloway, or I keep him on my team just to spite you and you have to draft him in the 6th.

You keep on talking up Galloway as a 6th rounder ... well according to the latest ADP... I'm seeing him as ranked as ADP 65 which makes him at best an 8th round prospect in an 8 team league ... so I'm sorry but I'm not buying what you seem to be selling ... and to my way of thinking I'm interested in keeping value or potential value when faced with keeper situations ... I'd much sooner look at the big board and look for future prospects like a Michael Turner who I can probably get for nothing or even sticking with the Buc's WR's ... what about going with youth and long term potential in the name of Michael Clayton, who's ADP is 82 .. tenth rounder ...So you may feel Galloway or your other "potential keeper value plays" are worth something to your league mates ... I think you need to readdress your values a little bit ... and quit letting so many guppies into your league ... if that's what an 8 teamer is

 

[hitmenssharpshooters]

in the summer of 2005 I traded Jamal Lewis for a 4th round pick which is really a 6th round pick since we keep 2 players in an 8 team league.

Trade 'em if you got 'em

I wasn't going to keep him over Peyton Manning or LT

 

[Doug Drinen]

As a result, I don't think trading a 22nd rounder and Joey Galloway for a 20th rounder is a very smart move on my part, either.

Good point. With your league setup, I think I would be willing to trade a 20th round pick for a 22nd round pick straight up. You don't give up much quality and the guy is two rounds cheaper every year if he does happen to pan out.As an aside, an interesting strategy for a rebuilding team in this league might be to trade out of the 1st and 2nd rounds altogether and stockpile lower picks.

Also, I disagree with the "take whatever you can get" mentality because MY TEAM IS STRENGTHENED by letting a player re-enter the draft pool

Assuming Galloway is not on your team, he's either(a) on someone else's team

or

(b) in the draft pool.

If he's in the draft pool, then he strengthens every team to a roughly equal extent. If someone has stockpiled a bunch of middle-round picks, then it might benefit him a little extra. If he's on someone else's team, he strengthens that team, and I suppose therefore weakens every other team (relatively) by a tiny amount. But you get the draft pick and the other teams don't.

I still claim that anyone even considering Galloway as an option has got to be pretty weak in an 8-team league. If you release him into the pool, then

(a) you don't get a pick

(b) he's more likely to land on a team that can hurt you.

I could well be missing something, but the only possible upside I see in letting him walk instead of taking a low pick is that taking a low pick might set a de facto market value that is lower than you'd like it to be. But that's a longer-term consideration. If we're just talking about a Galloway (or whoever) deal in isolation, then I'd take any pick I could get.

And like others, I'd be interested to see some rosters of teams that might be potential trading partners.

 

[SSOG]

If I'm in your league I let you hold your keepers and wait till you dump off the rest ... you obviously can't hold everyone, so I'd wait and force you to dump .. I think yer just scammin' everyone and wouldn't buy into buying false value

Me too. I'd wait until you were forced to drop them.

I won't be forced to drop them. Any players who are on my team and not designated "keepers" will all wind up back in the draft pool. To use the Galloway/6th rounder comparison... either you trade me a 10th rounder for Galloway, or I keep him on my team just to spite you and you have to draft him in the 6th.

You keep on talking up Galloway as a 6th rounder ... well according to the latest ADP... I'm seeing him as ranked as ADP 65 which makes him at best an 8th round prospect in an 8 team league ... so I'm sorry but I'm not buying what you seem to be selling ... and to my way of thinking I'm interested in keeping value or potential value when faced with keeper situations ... I'd much sooner look at the big board and look for future prospects like a Michael Turner who I can probably get for nothing or even sticking with the Buc's WR's ... what about going with youth and long term potential in the name of Michael Clayton, who's ADP is 82 .. tenth rounder ...So you may feel Galloway or your other "potential keeper value plays" are worth something to your league mates ... I think you need to readdress your values a little bit ... and quit letting so many guppies into your league ... if that's what an 8 teamer is

My talking about Galloway as a 6th rounder was purely a hypothetical and having nothing to do with whatever objective reality might be the case. I was saying "IF you value Galloway as a 6th rounder" just to give a starting point for discussion. Also, an 8-teamer is, in fact, actually still referred to as a "league".

As a result, I don't think trading a 22nd rounder and Joey Galloway for a 20th rounder is a very smart move on my part, either.

Good point. With your league setup, I think I would be willing to trade a 20th round pick for a 22nd round pick straight up. You don't give up much quality and the guy is two rounds cheaper every year if he does happen to pan out.As an aside, an interesting strategy for a rebuilding team in this league might be to trade out of the 1st and 2nd rounds altogether and stockpile lower picks.

I don't really think that strategy works out very well. With only 8 teams and 3 keepers (24 total kept players), trading a 70% chance at a sure-thing today for a 10% chance for a sure-thing next season (which is what it works out to) just isn't a very viable strategy. Especially in an 8-teamer, where studs are SOOO important in order to compete (because everyone already has quality players at all positions).Anyway, as far as rosters go, I can post some of them. Anyone labeled "Keeper" was a guy who was kept last season, and anyone labeled "Free Agent" was picked up off the street (and therefore keeps for "free").

Here's my team:

Quarterbacks (4)

Aaron Brooks - NO (11th round)

Michael Vick - ATL (8th round)

Drew Bledsoe - DAL Free Agent - 3rd

Runningbacks (6)

Tiki Barber - NYG (2nd round)

Brian Westbrook - PHI (3rd round)

(Keeper) Steven Jackson - STL (9th round)

Chester Taylor - BAL Free Agent - 1st

Chris Perry - CIN Free Agent - 2nd

Antowain Smith - NO Free Agent - 5th

Wide Recievers (6)

Andre Johnson - WR (4th round)

Drew Bennett - TEN (5th round)

Isaac Bruce - WR - StL (7th round)

Santana Moss - WAS (10th round)

Deion Branch - NE (13th round)

Donte Stallworthless - NO (22nd round)

Joey Galloway - TB Free Agent - 4th

Terry Glenn - DAL Free Agent - 6th

Tight ends (2)

(Keeper) Antonio Gates - SD (17th round)

Erron Kinney - TE Free Agent - 7th

Kickers (2)

Shayne Graham - CIN (19th round)

Defensive units (2)

Tampa Bay Buccaneers (18th round)

Dallas Cowboys Free Agent - 8th

And here's a team I look at as a promising trading partner:

Quarterbacks (4)

Peyton Manning - IND (2nd round)

Joey Harrington - DET (19th round)

(Keeper) Drew Brees - SD (22nd round)

Runningbacks (6)

Dom Davis - Houston (1st round)

(Keeper) Kevin Jones - DET (4th round)

Chris Brown - TEN (7th round)

(Keeper) Julius Jones - DAL (9th round)

Duce Staley - PIT 11th round)

Marion Barber- DAL Free Agent - 3rd

Marcell Shipp - ARI Free Agent - 4th

Wide Recievers (6)

Joe Horn - NO (3rd round)

Donald Driver - GB (5th round)

Derrick Mason - BAL (7th round)

Plaxico Burress - NYG (14th round)

Marcus Robinson - MIN (16th round)

Tight ends (2)

Jeremy Shockey - NYG (6th round)

Chris Baker - NYJ Free Agent - 2nd

Kickers (2)

Jason Elam - DEN (10th round)

Jeff Reed - PIT (20th round)

Defensive units (2)

New England Patriots (8th round)

New York Jets (18th round)

Denver Broncos Free Agent - 1st

And one more team just for good measure.

Quarterbacks (4)

Kerry Collins - OAK (6th round)

Jake Plummer - DEN (9th round)

Eli Manning - NYG (15th round)

Kurt Warner - ARI (19th round)

Runningbacks (6)

LeDainian Tomlinson - SD (1st round)

DeShaun Foster - CAR (5th round)

Warrick Dunn - ATL (7th round)

(Keeper) T J Ducket - ATL(10th round)

Ryan Moats - PHI (14th round)

William Green - CLE (17th round)

Wide Recievers (6)

Torry Holt - StL (2nd round)

Marvin Harrison - IND (3rd round)

Lee Evans - BUF (8th round)

Braylon Edwards - CLE (13th round)

Keenan McCardell - SD (16th round)

(Keeper) Eddie Kennison - KC (22nd round)

Tight ends (2)

Alge Crumpler - ATL (4th round)

(Keeper) Jeb Puztier - DEN (21st round)

Kickers (2)

Mike Vanderjagt - IND (11th round)

Niel Rackers - ARI (20th round)

Defensive units (2)

Philadelphia Eagles 12th round)

Carolina Panthers (18th round)

Edit: The number after each player type (i.e. Tight Ends (2)) is the roster limit for that position. When we draft, it's mandatory that we draft that many players at each position.

 

[Islander]

SSOG,

Interesting thread. I think a lot of us are in a similar situation, even if league rules are different.

I think one point is missing so far however. I think people tend to overvalue their own players, and undervalue other teams' players during the offseason.

That has to be taken into consideration.

Have you noticed the same thing in your league?

I am struggling to trade during the offseason because some owners in my league think their players are worth 2+ rounds more than they are actually worth, and they value my players 2+ rounds less less than they are worth. It makes trades very difficult.

 

[broncofan13000]

I really glad you brought up this topic. A good chunk of my fantasy offseason derives from this type of strategy. For myself, if I can gain an extra pick, or move up in the first couple of rounds, i will sell off as many of my players that i can't keep as possible. I'm not concerned if i'm bettering another team in my league, as long as i gain an extra pick. However there probably is a breakeven point where you need to just dump the guy back in the player pool, if the pick your recieving in return is just too low.