"KEEPERS" are BAD for the Auction Format (1 Viewer)

[Varmint]

Since I am sure that "owners" out-number "Commissioners" 10-1 in this forum, I am expecting quite a bit of flack here...just as I did in my league.

In 2000 we moved our 14-team league from the draft format to the auction format....which, by the way, was the best move...ever.

Our first auction ran a bit long. Most likely becuase of the newness of it all...and the fact that EVERY player was available to bid on....the one main pretense for moving the auction in the first place.

I agreed that it would be nice to shorten it a bit but it seemed that the only two ways to do this was to either bid on fewer players (each roster consists of 12 names) or....start the auction with names already assigned to rosters....a Keeper format.

I didn't like it to begin with but I agreed to allowing each team to keep two players.

.

I wanted the "meat" of the league available to everyone at auction but I didn't want to just say "you cannot keep anyone who scores too many points" so I made rules that governed the keepers in such a way that owners would be compelled to keep "decent" players for a period of two years following the auction.

Immediately I found that this was having a big impact on the auction....not to mention an impact on trades.

Many times a proposed trade was vetoed because "this may be my Keeper"

Sure...the auction moved along...but very good players were missing from the auction.

I tweaked the rules a couple of times over the years try to get owners to drop high priced "studs" back to the players' pool for auction...to no avail.

These are just some of the playes who were missing from our 2008 auction:

QB...

T. Brady

B. Roethlisberger

J. Cutler

RB....

A. Peterson

J. Addai

B. Westbrook

F. Gore

M. Barber

M. Turner

R. Grant

M. Jones-Drew

E. Graham

WR/TE

A. Johnson

P. Burress

M. Colston

B. Marshall

W. Welker

The whole purpose of moving to the auction (any player...just bid another buck) was a lie.

A 14-team league is too big to keep 2 players for 2 years.

To make things even worse...you were allowed to declare you Keepers on week before the season started so a franchise would benefit greatly from any NFL off-season move ....such as...M. Turner's trade to Atlanta.

It was just one more "luck" factor that determines our league champion.

After all these years of watching the auction go downhill and against protests from the league owners.....I changed the rule so that there would be more "meat" on the table at auction.

I don't ask for league votes for the single reason that owners will vote for what is good for their own franchise...NOT what is good for the league.

When any change is proposed in any league....the FIRST thing that franchise owners look at is how any change wil affect THEIR roster.

When asked to give up their Keepers, they look at the players they are losing...NOT the players they could gain.

They don't see that for every player that they keep...they lose the opportunity to bid on 13 other players.

ASKING the franchise owners to lose their Keepers is much like walking into a methadone clinic and asking for a show of hands of just who would want to give up their fix.

Now, the ONLY thing I like about Keepers is that in a 14-team league...the auction process could be shortened by 28 players.

If I had my way...only DEF/ST and PK could be kept.

Yeah...yeah...I know. There are those owners who clain that HOURS of research goes into their choice of a DEF/ST and PK.

BS.

If that's the case...WHY did the NYJ DEF/ST in our league reamain unlclaimed at our last auction and the highest priced PK finished 20th in scoring

By the end of the auction all I needed was a DEF/ST and I only had $1 to get it with.

When it was my turn I kept throwing out a DEF/ST but someone else would bid $2 and I'd miss out.

I ended up throwing them out ALPHABETICALLY and FINALLY ended up with the Titans DEF/ST.

As for a PK.....I try to get one who plays in a dome...period.

Unable to do that...I got J. Elam from the Waiver Wire....he wasn't bid on at auction.

Here is our new Keeper Rules for 2009.

Each franchise can choose only ONE position player from their Week 13 roster

This ONE Keeper can be kept for only ONE year...instead of two.

That ONE Keeper must be declared by the time the clock at the NFL's Superbowl stikes 0:00.

That Keeper's salary will be his 2008 salary...plus 20%.

At our pre-season party (one week before the auction on the weekend before kickoff) you can then choose to add either the DEF/ST or PK that was on your Week 13 roster for a cost of $1....OR...

At our pre-season party an owner can choose to drop that player and keep his DEF/ST and/or PK for only $1 each....OR...

At our pre-season party an owner can choose to drop EVERYONE and choose a DEF/ST or a PK from the Players' Pool for Free!

Now, when everyone shows up for the auction there will only be 14 position players and 14 DEF/ST or PK missing from the auction process...max.

The knowledge that there will be many more good players at auction will make each owner think twice about losing a chunk of his salary cap before he even walks into the auction by keeping a high-priced stud.

Like I said earlier...I expect very few franchise owners here to agree.....but Keepers are the worse thing that could happen to the auction format.

 

[massraider]

To make things even worse...you were allowed to declare you Keepers on week before the season started so a franchise would benefit greatly from any NFL off-season move ....such as...M. Turner's trade to Atlanta.It was just one more "luck" factor that determines our league champion.

If you don't like keepers, fine. But the above statement is incorrect. Luck had nothing to do with the guy who stashed M. Turner for a cheap price, and gets to keep him. That's good, smart ownership.In an auction format, with two keepers, the way to get an advantage is to get the stud for short money, NOT the high-priced studs. Colston his rookie year, Slaton, whoever. Then when the auction comes up, you have your two players, but most of your bid money. A guy in your league had Turner for short money, and then got to keep him when he went to ATL. That's not luck, that's foresight. And I like leagues that reward foresight.

 

[harryhood]

If you didnt want the "elite" to be left out of the draft then a keeper is probably not the way to go for you.

We kind of do the same thing that your league does and I really like it. 12 man rosters with 200 the first year. Every year after that you start with no more than 180 because your two keepers cost their previous year price + $10

This has kept guys on a team as a keeper for only a year or two as their prices rises by $10 every year.

The only problem we have run into which will be addressed by moving up our trading deadline, is "Firesales"

for example Andre Johnson and Manning had pretty large price tags and will not be kept this year. A guy who was totally out of the running shipped them to the first place team for a $2 Slaton($12 next year) in week 10. Things like this did get some people fired up but I think if we can moved the deadline up to week 8 then everyone will still be in the post season running(we play double headers every week) and will not have a need to fire sale.

 

[maverick0189]

I run a 12-team auction league with a $200 cap and IDPs. We allow up to five keepers each season for up to three years. Each year you keep a player you have to pay $5 more for the player than the previous year.

We just finished up our second season and the league champion this season was in 11th last season. He kept 5 players, including some of this years studs with prudent planning. His keepers included Michael Turner, Adrian Peterson, Santanio Holmes, and Marshawn Lynch. He also traded for another keeper right before the draft, Brandon Marshall. He got all these players at insanely low prices because he either drafted them in 2007 or picked them up when building his team for 2008.

I say props to him for his research and the huge turn-a-round. Now he will most likely dominate for 2009 as well.

 

[Warhogs]

Wow. Just wow varmint.

I don't want to attack you too much here but you posted a very long post here and seem to have made up your mind completely and quite frankly you are wrong because you do not seem open to ideas on how to make this format work. There are ways of making a keeper format work in an auction format and several will probably be posted within this thread. I'm not sure you will pick up on it though because you seem to have drawn your conclusions already.

So glad I am not in a league you run as you come across as a guy who is certain he is right and everyone else is wrong. What is even worse is you are just way off base.

 

[beto]

Wow, major rant there. (I thought we had a soapbox smilie?)

Varmint, you are one of the most respected auction posters around here so I will look at this from your point of view and agree that mixing auction with keeper (or dynasty) becomes laden with problems when auction values are kept year over year. My main league has been auction keeper since 1997 and our rule book is way too big and we have problems every year with different issues dealing with trading around the salary cap and keeper valuations. (but I still love the league)

To me, you either live with the flaws and try to correct them over time (Some of the suggestions here have been good) Or you scrap the keeper and just go with an auction redraft, which you seem to be leaning to. Good luck.

 

[roadkill1292]

Varmint, gb, you may be overstating the diminishment of the auction experience when some number of quality players are retained from year to year. I ran four auctions last year, three of which were keeper leagues and those keeper leagues were just as enjoyable for the participants as the startup league was.

Speaking for my main league, we like the component of identifying undervalued players and retaining them for a couple of years, albeit at an increased salary. It makes the back end of an auction something not to be ignored, as this is where many of the future stars are purchased.

 

[Captain Hook]

Varmint - bottom line is YOU want an auction redraft league

Fine - you can have it but stop with all the BS about keeper leagues because you are wrong about that!

 

[GregR_2]

To make things even worse...you were allowed to declare you Keepers on week before the season started so a franchise would benefit greatly from any NFL off-season move ....such as...M. Turner's trade to Atlanta.It was just one more "luck" factor that determines our league champion.

If you don't like keepers, fine. But the above statement is incorrect. Luck had nothing to do with the guy who stashed M. Turner for a cheap price, and gets to keep him. That's good, smart ownership.In an auction format, with two keepers, the way to get an advantage is to get the stud for short money, NOT the high-priced studs. Colston his rookie year, Slaton, whoever. Then when the auction comes up, you have your two players, but most of your bid money. A guy in your league had Turner for short money, and then got to keep him when he went to ATL. That's not luck, that's foresight. And I like leagues that reward foresight.

It wasn't through luck that I went out and got Turner in the vet auction in my salary cap dynasty league. I got him with the belief he would very likely end up being a starter somewhere and would turn into a great value, even after giving him a raise as part of a contract extension.Working to get these kind of deals is very much a strategy and not just luck. Through these exact means I've obtained a RB stable of Frank Gore, Willie Parker, Michael Turner, and Thomas Jones all costing much much less as a group than LT does by himself. Now was it luck that Gore worked out while some other backup with potential like Perry didn't? Yes, there is some. But there is skill in realizing these players have more potential than others to outplay their salary and to go out and get them and increase your chances of finding a long term value.I completely agree with massraider that you're misinterpreting what is luck and what is skill in this situation. It was skill to realize the expected fantasy value of Turner would likely be more than his cost.

 

[-OZ-]

The whole purpose of moving to the auction (any player...just bid another buck) was a lie.

The whole purpose of an auction is met here, every owner had the chance to get any player, not that they have a chance every year to get every player. As said before, you want a redraft auction, not a keeper league. That's fine, but that's not the league YOU created.

A 14-team league is too big to keep 2 players for 2 years.

Completely false. It just doesn't match YOUR goals.

Like I said earlier...I expect very few franchise owners here to agree.....but Keepers are the worse thing that could happen to the auction format.

you're right, keepers are the worst thing that could happen to a person (owner/commish makes no difference) who prefers to play in a redraft league.If you want a redraft league, great. But many of us like looking a couple years ahead and getting to keep players we were "right" about.

 

[Varmint]

Yep...that's always been the attraction of the auction format...

Showing up to round out your team!

Sorry owners....if that is what you want...stay with the draft or join a dynasty league and have a rookie draft.

The fun of the auction is the bidding....especially on the studs.

FF depends enough on luck as it is without throwing in the NFL off-season trade.

The plain truth is that Keepers are nothing more than a crutch.

They're training wheels.

They're that security blanket that gives everyone that warm, fuzzy feeling that they won't walk out of the auction looking like a total fool after the other owners in the league have bent them over and pumped them like the neighbor's cat because they didn't know how to bid on players at their current talent level.

They're that insurance policy that insures that your team won't totally suck because you fell apart and got caught up in bidding war on a player who retired last year.

They supply some something to look at during the off-season....and not much more

 

[Doug Drinen]

Did you consider asking the other owners in the league how they would like to structure the rules?

 

[CalBear]

Why do I get the feeling that Varmint had Brady and Burress as his keepers this year?

Salary escalation deals with the keeper auction issues.

 

[Duckboy]

My main auction league has a one-keeper policy, with that player at half price for the next year (including any waiver pickups). However, the rule also states that that player can only be kept for one year - so no matter where they end up (and we have had teams that end a year with 3 of last year's keepers) they go back in the pool. Makes for some interesting strategies, including who to buy:

I get the option of choosing to keep Westbrook or MJD for next year. I kept Westy 2 years ago but had to throw him back and re-buy him this year.
Someone with early bye QBs (we start 2 but only carry 3) picked up Brady on waivers, so will get to keep him for a buck next year.
One owner is a master of picking up the next big thing - he's bought as a 3rd RB (roster 4) and then kept LJ, Gore, ADP the last 3 years (had CJ3 from this years auction but traded him for a shot at the title). "Overbids" at auction time (per avg auction price) but has a good keeper the next year.Just some options on remaining as a "keeper" but getting most of the big-ticket folks in the pool.

 

[Varmint]

Did you consider asking the other owners in the league how they would like to structure the rules?

As I said earlier....asking owners to give up their keepers is like walking into a methadone clinic and asking for a show of hand of just who would give up their fix.Once a rule that allows an owner to "get a leg up" in any way is in place, you need dynamite to get rid of it.

Owners do not think past thier own rosters....period.

If you present a change that alters thier roster in any way...they'll veto it....no matter how much it damages something else.

The first, and only, thing they do is look at THEIR roster.

I guarantee it.

Owners do not take into consideration that for every 1 keeper they declare, they lose the chance at 13 other players at auction.

The rules allow 2?? THey can lose the chance to bid on 26 other players.

In their minds....a bird in the hand beats two in the bush. After all....there are 13 other owners who can beat them to the bush!

Nope...Believe it or not....the worse place to go for input for LEAGUE play..is the owners.

As long as it is an even playing field and everyone plays by the same rules, what do they have to ##### about?

Other than the chance that they'll fall flat on their faces at auction.

 

[Varmint]

Salary escalation deals with the keeper auction issues.

You'd think so...but it doesn't.Once everone sees that everyone else is keeping RB's...they'll keep theirs because there won't be any talented RB's to bid on at auction....or QB's...WR's....TE's...etc....We've had a 20% escalation in place for years, yet it didn't stop owners from keeping LT for $61...TO for $48....T. Romo for $32....etc...

 

[-OZ-]

Yep...that's always been the attraction of the auction format...Showing up to round out your team!Sorry owners....if that is what you want...stay with the draft or join a dynasty league and have a rookie draft.The fun of the auction is the bidding....especially on the studs.FF depends enough on luck as it is without throwing in the NFL off-season trade.The plain truth is that Keepers are nothing more than a crutch.They're training wheels. They're that security blanket that gives everyone that warm, fuzzy feeling that they won't walk out of the auction looking like a total fool after the other owners in the league have bent them over and pumped them like the neighbor's cat because they didn't know how to bid on players at their current talent level. They're that insurance policy that insures that your team won't totally suck because you fell apart and got caught up in bidding war on a player who retired last year. They supply some something to look at during the off-season....and not much more

We get it, YOU don't like the league YOU created. YOU prefer redraft, great. How about YOU join a redraft auction league and stop caring if others prefer keeper leagues?Every argument you make against keepers in auction apply equally to draft leagues, do you hate those too? Again, if so, great -YOU can chose to only play in redrafts. Nobody is forcing you to play in this league.

As long as it is an even playing field and everyone plays by the same rules, what do they have to ##### about?

 

[Uber]

I can't believe people actually made it all the way through.

 

[LAUNCH]

Salary escalation deals with the keeper auction issues.

You'd think so...but it doesn't.Once everone sees that everyone else is keeping RB's...they'll keep theirs because there won't be any talented RB's to bid on at auction....or QB's...WR's....TE's...etc....We've had a 20% escalation in place for years, yet it didn't stop owners from keeping LT for $61...TO for $48....T. Romo for $32....etc...

Change the rules so the RBs aren't so dominant. Put in a PPR rule for WRs only or move them to 8 yards / 1pt. I doubt the LT, TO, or Romo guy was feeling that great about their keepers all season.

 

[LarryAllen'sJockstrap]

Our league just finished it's third season.

It's a keep three league, with no more than 2 at any single position. Roster and scoring reqs make QB/RB/WR all fairly even.

To keep a player, you forfeit the draft pick for the round in which that player was last drafted.

When we started, we implemented a unique rule called a restricted free-agent. A player can be kept for two additional seasons after they were drafted (total of 3 years on anyone's roster without going back into the draft pool). After the third season, the player is avaiable for any team in the league to place a bid on. The bid must be at least one round higher than which the player was last drafted. It the player was originally a first round pick, the the offer can be a first round pick. Each team gets only one bid per free-agent player. Once a bid is placed, the owner of the player can match the bid with a corresponding pick in the same round, or choose to forfeit the player to the bidding team. The point of this is to reward a savy owner with three seasons of a player at the price they were drafted, but then to bring that player back to fair market value after that.

For example, In year 1, MJD was drafted in round 11 as a rookie. This season, he is an RFA. If no one places on offer on him, his current team can keep him three more seasons at an 11th round pick. However, if another team valued him at 3rd, they can offer their 3rd and the current owner would have to decide whther he was worth upping from a 11th to a 3rd for them. If he is matched at a 3rd and later in the offseason, another owner offers a second, the original owner must now match that (he would only lose his second and get the third back). Once a player is signed by another owner, they are off the market at the price for the next 3 seasons.

 

[Varmint]

Yep...that's always been the attraction of the auction format...Showing up to round out your team!Sorry owners....if that is what you want...stay with the draft or join a dynasty league and have a rookie draft.The fun of the auction is the bidding....especially on the studs.FF depends enough on luck as it is without throwing in the NFL off-season trade.The plain truth is that Keepers are nothing more than a crutch.They're training wheels. They're that security blanket that gives everyone that warm, fuzzy feeling that they won't walk out of the auction looking like a total fool after the other owners in the league have bent them over and pumped them like the neighbor's cat because they didn't know how to bid on players at their current talent level. They're that insurance policy that insures that your team won't totally suck because you fell apart and got caught up in bidding war on a player who retired last year. They supply some something to look at during the off-season....and not much more

Nobody is forcing you to play in this league.

...and...nobody is forcing you to read and reply to this thread.... I'm simply telling you that keepers ruin the auction.Having or not having keepers do not affect league play at all.They don't determine league champions.They don't determine league failures.They add another element of luck to fantasy football.Of the two participants in this year's championship game in our league.....one kept a TE and the other kept nobody.Keepers ruin the main goal of the auction......any player? Bid another buck.

 

[Doug Drinen]

Nope...Believe it or not....the worse place to go for input for LEAGUE play..is the owners.

Seriously? Owners get no say at all? Just you? You can impose rules and other people can't even suggest them? Why do you believe you are the only person who is capable of making decisions without his team's self-interest in mind?It's everyone else's league as much as it is yours.

 

[Peter_Griffin]

I can't really figure out the point of the original post other than that he's venting.

We have a 1 year keeper rule in our 12 team auction league (2 players). The first year we did it, more than half of the keepers were running backs which made next year's auction tough if you needed top RBs. But over the years it has evened out and no one has complained. One of the great benefits of keepers is that it gives teams who are out of it a reason to stay interested and make trades (thus building the $$$ pot) in the hopes of improving your chances for next year.

 

[CalBear]

Salary escalation deals with the keeper auction issues.

You'd think so...but it doesn't.Once everone sees that everyone else is keeping RB's...they'll keep theirs because there won't be any talented RB's to bid on at auction....or QB's...WR's....TE's...etc....We've had a 20% escalation in place for years, yet it didn't stop owners from keeping LT for $61...TO for $48....T. Romo for $32....etc...

So? If they're keeping players for higher dollar values than they'd go for at auction, you're not giving anything up. Except better players will have more money to spend on the available players.

 

[GregR_2]

...Owners do not think past thier own rosters....period....

You are asking here where none of us have rosters in your leagues, and you're getting back an overwhelming reply that if you don't want to play in a keeper league you should play in a redraft league, but that there is nothing wrong with a keeper league.So obviously that sentiment isn't linked to people not being able to think past their rosters.

 

[mozzy84]

why not just get rid of the keeper? you sound like you're in charge anyways

 

[Warhogs]

Nope...Believe it or not....the worse place to go for input for LEAGUE play..is the owners.

Seriously? Owners get no say at all? Just you? You can impose rules and other people can't even suggest them? Why do you believe you are the only person who is capable of making decisions without his team's self-interest in mind?It's everyone else's league as much as it is yours.

First of all I'm not sure why you need to come across as the great wise decision maker over all those pesky owners in your league. Also, you don't need to lump us idiots posting in this thread as close minded owners and not commissioners. My guess would be that a vast majority of the posters in this thread are commissioners in at least one league they play in.

I sure hope this is a fishing trip otherwise you just don't get it.

All owners need to have some influence in the league make up whether they are commissioner or not. You are still coming across as someone who feels he knows what is best and everyone else is an idiot. Close mindedness like that is just a poor approach for any commissioner.

 

[Varmint]

Nope...Believe it or not....the worse place to go for input for LEAGUE play..is the owners.

Seriously? Owners get no say at all? Just you? You can impose rules and other people can't even suggest them? Why do you believe you are the only person who is capable of making decisions without his team's self-interest in mind?It's everyone else's league as much as it is yours.

First of all I'm not sure why you need to come across as the great wise decision maker over all those pesky owners in your league. Also, you don't need to lump us idiots posting in this thread as close minded owners and not commissioners. My guess would be that a vast majority of the posters in this thread are commissioners in at least one league they play in.

I sure hope this is a fishing trip otherwise you just don't get it.

All owners need to have some influence in the league make up whether they are commissioner or not. You are still coming across as someone who feels he knows what is best and everyone else is an idiot. Close mindedness like that is just a poor approach for any commissioner.

My guess is that most posters in this forum are owners...not Commissioners.The original post states that keepers are bad for the auction format...and I haven't heard a single argument that proves otherwise....not one.

I also stated that owners care for their own rosters....not overall league play....and I still stand by that.

The best thing about the auction format is that any owner has access to any player before the first kickoff of the season....

Having players kept from the auction flies in the face of the auction format.....period.

The whole reason for building rosters via the auction format is so that owners can decide how much a player is worth to them....before the season starts.

Keeping players from one season to the next absolutely destroys their currnet value and therefore renders the auction format moot.

If you're going to allow owners to tag players and keep them from the other owners...you may as well go back to the dark ages and reinstate the draft format.

In a draft format you walk into the draft with a certain number of players scratched off your list because there is no way you are going to get a shot at them

In an auction format with keepers....you do the same thing.....and it could be even worse.

If I'm picking 14th in a 14 team draft...I only have to scratch off 13 names.

In the same league with 2 keepers allowed...I could scratch off 26 names.

In the true auction format you walk into the auction with every player available to any owner who has the sac to bid another buck.

Keepers are bad for the auction format.

Nobody has come close to showing me anything different.

All anyone has done is to say that they like keepers in the auction format...and I've stated the probable reason why this is.....

The plain truth is that Keepers are nothing more than a crutch.

They're training wheels.

They're that security blanket that gives everyone that warm, fuzzy feeling that they won't walk out of the auction looking like a total fool after the other owners in the league have bent them over and pumped them like the neighbor's cat because they didn't know how to bid on players at their current talent level.

They're that insurance policy that insures that your team won't totally suck because you fell apart and got caught up in bidding war on a player who retired last year.

They supply some something to look at during the off-season....and not much more

 

[Doug Drinen]

All anyone has done is to say that they like keepers in the auction format...

And all you've done is say that you don't.What people are trying to point out is that this is a matter of preference.VERIFIABLE FACT: if you have keepers, there will be fewer players available at the next auction.OPINION: this is a bad thing.No one's disputing your facts. No one is dumping on your opinion. All anyone is doing is pointing out that other people are entitled to opinions too.PS as was pointed out earlier in this thread, I'll bet the vast majority of people posting on this board in January have been commish of at least one league.

 

[Varmint]

All anyone has done is to say that they like keepers in the auction format...

And all you've done is say that you don't.What people are trying to point out is that this is a matter of preference.

VERIFIABLE FACT: if you have keepers, there will be fewer players available at the next auction.

OPINION: this is a bad thing.

No one's disputing your facts. No one is dumping on your opinion. All anyone is doing is pointing out that other people are entitled to opinions too.

PS as was pointed out earlier in this thread, I'll bet the vast majority of people posting on this board in January have been commish of at least one league.

Of course its a matter of preference...just like preferring an auction over a draft...What I'm saying is that keeping players from the bidding is bad for the entire auction process

I'm not talking about league play or anyting else...simply the premise of the auction format....any player...bid another buck

Now, someone can tell me why they would move to an auction format for this reason...and then keep players from the bidding.

I KNOW that its a matter of preference...and I've told you why most owners prefer to have a good player or two on their roster before they walk into the auction.

Many times its a security blanket...usually provided by NFL off-season moves.

In my opinion....keeping players from the bidding is a bad thing.....and I've told you why

Now, someone can tell me how keeping players from the bidding can be a good thng.

The entire reason for going to an auction format is that every player is available to every owner..you don't have to scratch off names like you do before a draft...

Tell me how scratching names off your list prior to a draft is any different from scratching names off your list before an auction.

 

[CalBear]

In my opinion....keeping players from the bidding is a bad thing.....and I've told you why

Now, someone can tell me how keeping players from the bidding can be a good thng.

One obvious benefit is that it will keep twerps like you out of the league.

 

[Doug Drinen]

The entire reason for going to an auction format is that every player is available to every owner.

I think this is where the disagreement lies.You're conflating two issues that are really separate.

1. Should we keep players from year to year?

2. To allocate the ELIGIBLE players (subject to the decision we made in #1), should we do draft or auction?

One reason (not the entire reason) for going to an auction instead of a draft is that every player in the available player pool is available to every owner. It's perfectly reasonable to want keepers and also to prefer auction. Those two decisions don't necessarily have to be related.

 

[Varmint]

In my opinion....keeping players from the bidding is a bad thing.....and I've told you why

Now, someone can tell me how keeping players from the bidding can be a good thng.

One obvious benefit is that it will keep twerps like you out of the league.

Yeah...that's what it does ..

A well thought out and informative response.

 

[Varmint]

The entire reason for going to an auction format is that every player is available to every owner.

I think this is where the disagreement lies.You're conflating two issues that are really separate.

1. Should we keep players from year to year?

2. To allocate the ELIGIBLE players (subject to the decision we made in #1), should we do draft or auction?

One reason (not the entire reason) for going to an auction instead of a draft is that every player in the available player pool is available to every owner. It's perfectly reasonable to want keepers and also to prefer auction. Those two decisions don't necessarily have to be related.

The original statement was a single issue...

"keeping players from the bidding process is bad for the auction format".

Can you tell me another reason to change to the auction format other than every player is available to every owner?

Leagues move away from the draft format becase they don't like the fact that certain players were unavailable to owners based soley on their position in the draft.

What's the difference?

If you own a player who would be a certain #1 in a draft and you keep him from the other owners at the auction by taggging him...isn't that the same as drawing a #1 in the draft?

If you look around and see 7 desireable players that you would have on your roster being tagged by other owners at your auction...isn't that pretty much the same as drawing #8 in a draft?

It is....and it takes so much away from the auction.

Thus...the title to the original post....."Keepers are bad for the auction format"...

I'm still waiting for someone to show me how keepers are "good" for the auction.

All I read is....yeah..."keepers hurt the auction format....but owners like keepers so we choose to live with it."

 

[CalBear]

Can you tell me another reason to change to the auction format other than every player is available to every owner?

It's more fun, more interactive, more analytical, and requires more skill, whether or not there are keepers.Keepers keep some continuity on teams from year to year--just like the NFL.

 

[Varmint]

Can you tell me another reason to change to the auction format other than every player is available to every owner?

It's more fun, more interactive, more analytical, and requires more skill, whether or not there are keepers.Keepers keep some continuity on teams from year to year--just like the NFL.

Its more fun BECAUSE it is more interactive.....and adding more, better players to bid on adds to everything else you mentioned.

The fewer good players to bid on....the fewer "exciting" bids.

Better players draw more teams into the bidding war.

The bidding on a player like A. Peterson draws much more attention than the bidding on a player such as C. Cooley.

It becomes and "exciting bid"...a "bidding frenzy" if you would.

The more exciting bids (bidding frenzies)....the more exciting auction.

Taking the exciting bids (bidding frenzies) out of the auction....hurt the auction.

Therefore....Keepers are bad for the auction process.

 

[CalBear]

Therefore....Keepers are bad for the auction process.

You've clearly done a very good job of convincing yourself of that. So maybe you should quit while you're ahead.

 

[King of the Wolfies]

funniest thread I've read in weeks.

You are mad that a keeper league keeps players out of the FA draft and you don't like it. Which part of keeper league do you not understand? If you have your way, it won't be a keeper league, it will be called a REDRAFT. Its not a keeper league if people can't keep anyone of value.

You claim there is no good reason to allow people to keep players out of the FA draft. Thats the whole purpose of a keeper/dynasty is to find those values that will anchor your team into the future. Allowing owners to keep their diamonds is rewarding them for good research. You must be a total idiot to think stashing Turner was LUCK.

Changing the rules on any keeper/dynasty league after the initial startup draft is bad. For a commish to make changes w/o regard to what the league wants is the sign of a childish thug. If you changed formats w/o a startup draft, then you are again an idiot.

Your league would be in its rights to elect a new commish (which I'm sure you would never allow being the dictator you obviously are), so they should abandon this league and startup one with the rules they agreed to play under.

Calling your idea a keeper league is as inaccurate as calling it a dynasty. Just call it what it is, a REDRAFT.

 

[Doug Drinen]

The original statement was a single issue...

"keeping players from the bidding process is bad for the auction format".

Can you tell me another reason to change to the auction format other than every player is available to every owner?

Because you prefer an auction to a draft as a means of allocating the unkept players.

 

[encaitar]

funniest thread I've read in weeks.You are mad that a keeper league keeps players out of the FA draft and you don't like it. Which part of keeper league do you not understand? If you have your way, it won't be a keeper league, it will be called a REDRAFT. Its not a keeper league if people can't keep anyone of value.You claim there is no good reason to allow people to keep players out of the FA draft. Thats the whole purpose of a keeper/dynasty is to find those values that will anchor your team into the future. Allowing owners to keep their diamonds is rewarding them for good research. You must be a total idiot to think stashing Turner was LUCK.Changing the rules on any keeper/dynasty league after the initial startup draft is bad. For a commish to make changes w/o regard to what the league wants is the sign of a childish thug. If you changed formats w/o a startup draft, then you are again an idiot.Your league would be in its rights to elect a new commish (which I'm sure you would never allow being the dictator you obviously are), so they should abandon this league and startup one with the rules they agreed to play under.Calling your idea a keeper league is as inaccurate as calling it a dynasty. Just call it what it is, a REDRAFT.

I can't believe any of the owners would remain in that league after you changed the rules without consulting them. I know I wouldn't.

 

[runner06]

1. You claim that having keepers increases the luck portion of fantasy football. I'm not so sure about that. Allowing keepers in an auction league rewards players for buying players such as Steve Slaton, Chris Johnson, Matt Forte, Eddie Royal, Jay Cutler, Aaron Rodgers, DeSean Jackson, Michael Turner (last year), etc.

2. There are ways to reduce the reward you get from finding diamonds in the rough by introducing salary escalators and/or have a maximum number of years you can keep that player.

3. It seems like the rest of your league prefers having keepers versus not having keepers. Probably part of that is because it's fun to follow the same players more then one year.

4. It's fine that you prefer a reauction league over a keeper auction league. It sounds like you are dead set on being in a reauction league. However, I don't think you should force your beliefs on the rest of the league. If I were in your league, I would quit immediately. If it's really a big deal to you, you should quit this league and either setup or join a different redraft auction league.

5. The most important thing about fantasy football is that it should be fun. Therefore, you really should put in any major changes in your league to a league vote.

 

[Varmint]

All great comments as to "why I like keepers"..

I've shown how a depleted player's pool diminishes auction night... nobody has shown me how keeping players out of the bidding process, improves auction night.

You know...like...."a limited number of players at a certain position makes bidding on each available player more urgent"...or something like that.

But you are right in one point...(which I've always agreed to)

In the auction format....it should either be a dynasty league or a re-draft....anything in between makes for a diminished auction night.

Any form of a keeper format ...you may as well hold a draft because you cannot bid on any player.

 

[thayman]

It sounds like you just really enjoy the big name guys. I would assume that when you did a normal draft as opposed to auction that you liked the first 3 rounds then lost interest after that. You mentioned that you had a 20% increase every year, you should look to raise that a bit.

Also I'm curious as to what $$ figures were attached to the 26 keepers in your league this year.

 

[thayman]

All great comments as to "why I like keepers"..

I've shown how a depleted player's pool diminishes auction night... nobody has shown me how keeping players out of the bidding process, improves auction night.

You know...like...."a limited number of players at a certain position makes bidding on each available player more urgent"...or something like that.

But you are right in one point...(which I've always agreed to)

In the auction format....it should either be a dynasty league or a re-draft....anything in between makes for a diminished auction night.

Any form of a keeper format ...you may as well hold a draft because you cannot bid on any player.

TD only leagues are not necisarily better than other leagues. Just as PPR isn't better than standard scoring, they are just different types of Fantasy Football Leagues.It's not a right or wrong issue, it's just what you prefer. Just because you don't like something doesn't make it stupid.

 

[Varmint]

All great comments as to "why I like keepers"..

I've shown how a depleted player's pool diminishes auction night... nobody has shown me how keeping players out of the bidding process, improves auction night.

You know...like...."a limited number of players at a certain position makes bidding on each available player more urgent"...or something like that.

But you are right in one point...(which I've always agreed to)

In the auction format....it should either be a dynasty league or a re-draft....anything in between makes for a diminished auction night.

Any form of a keeper format ...you may as well hold a draft because you cannot bid on any player.

TD only leagues are not necisarily better than other leagues. Just as PPR isn't better than standard scoring, they are just different types of Fantasy Football Leagues.It's not a right or wrong issue, it's just what you prefer. Just because you don't like something doesn't make it stupid.

You see...you (like most everyone else) is talking about "league play"...You know....the part that takes place between the initial kickoff and the awarding of the league trophy.

I am talking ONLY about auction night....the auction process.

Keepers have very little to do with "league play"

The points scored by any keeper would be the same no matter which team they play for.

Keepers do however, have everything to do with "auction night".

The original post said that "Keepers are bad for the auction format".

It didn't say that "Keepers are bad for the auction league".

Since auction night is the holiest night of the fantasy season, I feel that it takes precidence over most everything else.

If any rule takes from the excitement of this night...it is not a desireable rule.

 

[thayman]

All great comments as to "why I like keepers"..

I've shown how a depleted player's pool diminishes auction night... nobody has shown me how keeping players out of the bidding process, improves auction night.

You know...like...."a limited number of players at a certain position makes bidding on each available player more urgent"...or something like that.

But you are right in one point...(which I've always agreed to)

In the auction format....it should either be a dynasty league or a re-draft....anything in between makes for a diminished auction night.

Any form of a keeper format ...you may as well hold a draft because you cannot bid on any player.

TD only leagues are not necisarily better than other leagues. Just as PPR isn't better than standard scoring, they are just different types of Fantasy Football Leagues.It's not a right or wrong issue, it's just what you prefer. Just because you don't like something doesn't make it stupid.

You see...you (like most everyone else) is talking about "league play"...You know....the part that takes place between the initial kickoff and the awarding of the league trophy.

I am talking ONLY about auction night....the auction process.

Keepers have very little to do with "league play"

The points scored by any keeper would be the same no matter which team they play for.

Keepers do however, have everything to do with "auction night".

The original post said that "Keepers are bad for the auction format".

It didn't say that "Keepers are bad for the auction league".

Since auction night is the holiest night of the fantasy season, I feel that it takes precidence over most everything else.

If any rule takes from the excitement of this night...it is not a desireable rule.

Is your league Team Defense or IDP?? If you are Team Defense you should try IDP it increases your player pool and would greatly lengthen your auction night.Adding to your starting lineups 2 DLinemen, 2 LBs, 2 DBs or more if you want. Going this route could let you meet in the middle with most of your league. Perhaps ammending your rule to allow 1 Offensive Keeper and 1 Defensive Keeper.

 

[King of the Wolfies]

I've shown how a depleted player's pool diminishes auction night... nobody has shown me how keeping players out of the bidding process, improves auction night.

Because its a KEEPER league. You seem to think that leagues are defined by how players are obtained. No one is going to tell you that auctions for keepers and dynasty means that every player is going to be available because thats NOT the definition of keeper and dynasty league.

Any form of a keeper format ...you may as well hold a draft because you cannot bid on any player.

Its called the startup draft when EVERY player IS available. After that if you want every player available for the next draft, its called a REDRAFT league. Where you born this stupid or just too many head traumas? Auctions are by far the fairest way to distribute AVAILABLE players. How many players are AVAILABLE is dependent on whether its a redraft, keeper, or dynasty league. You don't seem to be able to seperate the 2 concepts. Do you go to restaurants order chicken then complain that it doesnt taste like turkey?? Just like no one is going to tell you that your chicken should taste like turkey, no one is going to tell you that keeper auctions are MORE fun. You either enjoy auctions or you don't, and if you cannot enjoy an auction because 12-24 players arent available, then I content that you do not understand the joy of auctions.

I think this thread is really about the fact that you didnt get studs during the startup draft, and now that some have some great bargains, you are gonna whine about how unfair it is. The fun of auctions is the strategy involved in knowing when to nominate a player, how much to spend, how much to drive up $$ for players you dont actually want, etc. The fun isnt dependent on whether any few players are available in the draft or not. The more you demand that we agree with your bad arguments, the more you come across as a whiney tyrant looking to screw over his leaguemates just because he has the power as commish.

 

[Varmint]

All great comments as to "why I like keepers"..

I've shown how a depleted player's pool diminishes auction night... nobody has shown me how keeping players out of the bidding process, improves auction night.

You know...like...."a limited number of players at a certain position makes bidding on each available player more urgent"...or something like that.

But you are right in one point...(which I've always agreed to)

In the auction format....it should either be a dynasty league or a re-draft....anything in between makes for a diminished auction night.

Any form of a keeper format ...you may as well hold a draft because you cannot bid on any player.

TD only leagues are not necisarily better than other leagues. Just as PPR isn't better than standard scoring, they are just different types of Fantasy Football Leagues.It's not a right or wrong issue, it's just what you prefer. Just because you don't like something doesn't make it stupid.

You see...you (like most everyone else) is talking about "league play"...You know....the part that takes place between the initial kickoff and the awarding of the league trophy.

I am talking ONLY about auction night....the auction process.

Keepers have very little to do with "league play"

The points scored by any keeper would be the same no matter which team they play for.

Keepers do however, have everything to do with "auction night".

The original post said that "Keepers are bad for the auction format".

It didn't say that "Keepers are bad for the auction league".

Since auction night is the holiest night of the fantasy season, I feel that it takes precidence over most everything else.

If any rule takes from the excitement of this night...it is not a desireable rule.

Is your league Team Defense or IDP?? If you are Team Defense you should try IDP it increases your player pool and would greatly lengthen your auction night.Adding to your starting lineups 2 DLinemen, 2 LBs, 2 DBs or more if you want. Going this route could let you meet in the middle with most of your league. Perhaps ammending your rule to allow 1 Offensive Keeper and 1 Defensive Keeper.

First of all...let me commend you on your civility in your communications...I'm used to the usual "you don't agree with me...so you're stupid...and so is your league" attitude that infects most of the communication around here...and most 3rd grade classes in most public schools.

We've tossed around the idea of IDP but decided no to go that way....(by league vote...NOT by the raving of a maniacal dictator)...mainly because of the time involved in both selecting them (especially after going to the auction format in 2001) and the research involved. We voted from the beginning to keep this as an offensive scoring league only.

Secondly, as an earlier post said, although we started with 2 keepers for 2 additional years (total of 3), I've decided on a compromise of 1 position player for 1 additional year (total of 2yrs) PLUS anyone can keep their DEF/ST or PK for a cost of $1. The salary of the position player goes up 20% in his 2nd season.

A 14-team league is just too big for each team to tag 2 players for 2 additional years.

It takes way too many players out of the bidding process.

 

[thayman]

All great comments as to "why I like keepers"..

I've shown how a depleted player's pool diminishes auction night... nobody has shown me how keeping players out of the bidding process, improves auction night.

You know...like...."a limited number of players at a certain position makes bidding on each available player more urgent"...or something like that.

But you are right in one point...(which I've always agreed to)

In the auction format....it should either be a dynasty league or a re-draft....anything in between makes for a diminished auction night.

Any form of a keeper format ...you may as well hold a draft because you cannot bid on any player.

TD only leagues are not necisarily better than other leagues. Just as PPR isn't better than standard scoring, they are just different types of Fantasy Football Leagues.It's not a right or wrong issue, it's just what you prefer. Just because you don't like something doesn't make it stupid.

You see...you (like most everyone else) is talking about "league play"...You know....the part that takes place between the initial kickoff and the awarding of the league trophy.

I am talking ONLY about auction night....the auction process.

Keepers have very little to do with "league play"

The points scored by any keeper would be the same no matter which team they play for.

Keepers do however, have everything to do with "auction night".

The original post said that "Keepers are bad for the auction format".

It didn't say that "Keepers are bad for the auction league".

Since auction night is the holiest night of the fantasy season, I feel that it takes precidence over most everything else.

If any rule takes from the excitement of this night...it is not a desireable rule.

Is your league Team Defense or IDP?? If you are Team Defense you should try IDP it increases your player pool and would greatly lengthen your auction night.Adding to your starting lineups 2 DLinemen, 2 LBs, 2 DBs or more if you want. Going this route could let you meet in the middle with most of your league. Perhaps ammending your rule to allow 1 Offensive Keeper and 1 Defensive Keeper.

First of all...let me commend you on your civility in your communications...I'm used to the usual "you don't agree with me...so you're stupid...and so is your league" attitude that infects most of the communication around here...and most 3rd grade classes in most public schools.

We've tossed around the idea of IDP but decided no to go that way....(by league vote...NOT by the raving of a maniacal dictator)...mainly because of the time involved in both selecting them (especially after going to the auction format in 2001) and the research involved. We voted from the beginning to keep this as an offensive scoring league only.

Secondly, as an earlier post said, although we started with 2 keepers for 2 additional years (total of 3), I've decided on a compromise of 1 position player for 1 additional year (total of 2yrs) PLUS anyone can keep their DEF/ST or PK for a cost of $1. The salary of the position player goes up 20% in his 2nd season.

A 14-team league is just too big for each team to tag 2 players for 2 additional years.

It takes way too many players out of the bidding process.

With 14 teams you should really try to convince your league to go IDP. If everyone really enjoys auction night they will love it. When you add another 10+ rounds of auction trying to fill out IDP players it is really a good time. Just my two cents.

 

[Varmint]

All great comments as to "why I like keepers"..

I've shown how a depleted player's pool diminishes auction night... nobody has shown me how keeping players out of the bidding process, improves auction night.

You know...like...."a limited number of players at a certain position makes bidding on each available player more urgent"...or something like that.

But you are right in one point...(which I've always agreed to)

In the auction format....it should either be a dynasty league or a re-draft....anything in between makes for a diminished auction night.

Any form of a keeper format ...you may as well hold a draft because you cannot bid on any player.

TD only leagues are not necisarily better than other leagues. Just as PPR isn't better than standard scoring, they are just different types of Fantasy Football Leagues.It's not a right or wrong issue, it's just what you prefer. Just because you don't like something doesn't make it stupid.

You see...you (like most everyone else) is talking about "league play"...You know....the part that takes place between the initial kickoff and the awarding of the league trophy.

I am talking ONLY about auction night....the auction process.

Keepers have very little to do with "league play"

The points scored by any keeper would be the same no matter which team they play for.

Keepers do however, have everything to do with "auction night".

The original post said that "Keepers are bad for the auction format".

It didn't say that "Keepers are bad for the auction league".

Since auction night is the holiest night of the fantasy season, I feel that it takes precidence over most everything else.

If any rule takes from the excitement of this night...it is not a desireable rule.

Is your league Team Defense or IDP?? If you are Team Defense you should try IDP it increases your player pool and would greatly lengthen your auction night.Adding to your starting lineups 2 DLinemen, 2 LBs, 2 DBs or more if you want. Going this route could let you meet in the middle with most of your league. Perhaps ammending your rule to allow 1 Offensive Keeper and 1 Defensive Keeper.

First of all...let me commend you on your civility in your communications...I'm used to the usual "you don't agree with me...so you're stupid...and so is your league" attitude that infects most of the communication around here...and most 3rd grade classes in most public schools.

We've tossed around the idea of IDP but decided no to go that way....(by league vote...NOT by the raving of a maniacal dictator)...mainly because of the time involved in both selecting them (especially after going to the auction format in 2001) and the research involved. We voted from the beginning to keep this as an offensive scoring league only.

Secondly, as an earlier post said, although we started with 2 keepers for 2 additional years (total of 3), I've decided on a compromise of 1 position player for 1 additional year (total of 2yrs) PLUS anyone can keep their DEF/ST or PK for a cost of $1. The salary of the position player goes up 20% in his 2nd season.

A 14-team league is just too big for each team to tag 2 players for 2 additional years.

It takes way too many players out of the bidding process.

With 14 teams you should really try to convince your league to go IDP. If everyone really enjoys auction night they will love it. When you add another 10+ rounds of auction trying to fill out IDP players it is really a good time. Just my two cents.

Good lord...10 more rounds??The only reason I ever agreed to any keepers in the first place is that it had the potential to take 28 players out of the auction process...thus ending the auction before midnight

If we had no keepers we would bid on 168 players.

Since it is rare that EVERYONE keeps 2 players, we usually have about 20-25 players kept.

This leaves about 143 players to bid on.

We start at 7 and end at about 11:30.

Adding 2 DP, 2 LB, and 2 DB would would add 84 players to the auction process!!

We wouldn't get done until 2-3 am!

As it is, we already use half of the owners to drive the other owners home.

If we went much later, NOBODY would be able to drive!!