Kevin Jones in the Mike Martz offense (1 Viewer)

[Righetti]

Looking at KJ in 2006 and how he fits into the Martz offense is gonna be something people will debate.

after his good 2004 Rookie season, he followed it up with a dud in 2005, but for those of us who followed his progress last year, it seemed that he never got into the flow of the game (I saw this as an issue with the Lions coaching staff never gave him a bunch of carries in a row, the Lions always playing from behind and KJ not being very assertive especially when the play called for a run off guard).

I'm wondering how Martz plans to use him, so I went back and though that Steven Jackson maybe a good comparison, since he too is a bigger back who was asked to share carries in certain places with the Legend.

his 2005 numbers were

254/1046/8

43/320/2

not great numbers but very solid production....

I see KJ as putting up similar numbers this year... although he'll have to show a different commitment next year.. I also don't see the SJax numbers as the ceiling.. but a good base-line to look at.

 

[TheFanatic]

Looking at KJ in 2006 and how he fits into the Martz offense is gonna be something people will debate.

There is a major difference though. When Martz was the OC Vermiel saw the importance of running the ball ot stay in ball games or keep the opposing O of the field and thus the Rams relied HEAVILY on Faulk. When Martz took over as the HC he got away from that starting with the SB loss to the Pats. Now, as an OC with Lions I expect the HC to realize that the game can't be won by chucking the rock 75% of the time and keep Mad Mike in check. I'm not saying that Jones is the next Faulk, I'm just saying that looking at SJax' stats with Martz as a HC and KJ with Martz as an OC is not quite apples to apples

 

[fruity pebbles]

Difference being, Jackson is a very good receiver. There are two backs on the Lions roster who are better at catching than Jones. A Martz back has never gotten more than 260 carries in a season so the reception numbers are a must.

 

[Incogneto]

Brian Calhoun

 

[Blackjacks]

Looking at KJ in 2006 and how he fits into the Martz offense is gonna be something people will debate.

There is a major difference though. When Martz was the OC Vermiel saw the importance of running the ball ot stay in ball games or keep the opposing O of the field and thus the Rams relied HEAVILY on Faulk. When Martz took over as the HC he got away from that starting with the SB loss to the Pats. Now, as an OC with Lions I expect the HC to realize that the game can't be won by chucking the rock 75% of the time and keep Mad Mike in check. I'm not saying that Jones is the next Faulk, I'm just saying that looking at SJax' stats with Martz as a HC and KJ with Martz as an OC is not quite apples to apples

I hate to agree with the fanatic but I got to. Excellent points here, Martz will be a great OC because he has someone to keep him in check but some team will give him a chance again to head coach and we'll see the carnival marching into town again.

 

[Arnold. S]

in one year the title of this thread will be 'Brian Calhoun in the Mike Martz offense'

 

[Righetti]

in one year the title of this thread will be 'Brian Calhoun in the Mike Martz offense'

or later this year

 

[Quez]

I drafted Kevin Jones

 

[el-gato-grande]

Brian Calhoun = Poor Man's Marshall Faulk in this offense

KJ plays the part of Lamar Gordan et. al

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Jackson was hurt by injuries to Bulger and himself last year. Half way through the year he was tied for second in scoring, so let's not get stuck on the idea that Martz has to change his ways to have a top 5 FF RB on his team. KJ however, will have to get better at catching the football for this to be possible.

 

[Jack Ham & Eggs]

Am I the only one that thinks Brian Calhoun is getting overhyped on this board?

 

[Bears_Man2]

Am I the only one that thinks Brian Calhoun is getting overhyped on this board?

He couldn't of landed in a better spot.I think Norwood is the one that is getting overhyped.

 

[Jack Ham & Eggs]

Yes, he definitely landed in a very good spot for his skill set, but he's simply not as good of a RB as Kevin Jones is. Maybe he can be Chris Perry to KJ's Rudi, but I'm not seeing any love for KJ. Maybe when he runs for 1,300 this year he'll finally get some.

 

[Trig2U]

Mark me down for "Brian Calhoun is overhyped".

Seems to me there's a reason why he slipped in the draft. Calhoun is small-ish and I don't think anybody is gonna claim the guy has a skill set like Marshall Faulk or Tiki Barber or Warrick Dunn. He had a poor combine, and even assuming he rebounds in training camp it seems a lot more likely that he'll end up as a situational, third down type.

Also... yeah, he had a crummy sophomore season, but Kevin Jones has actually proven he can rush for over 1000 yards in the NFL. He was drafted higher, will no doubt have a bigger contract than Calhoun, and therefore probably isn't just gonna just step aside or fade away anytime soon.

I hve no vested interest in either player, but if I were drafting I'd say that Jones is more likely to be undervalued, while Calhoun has a lot to prove.

 

[BlueOnion]

Martz is not good for running backs. Faulk had success because he was such a great wide receiver. But more times than not I believe Martz would prefer to throw 60 times a game then run the ball 20 times a game.

So the question is, how good of a wide receiver is Kevin Jones? Personally, I think he is above average, however I don't see Mike Martz giving him more than 20 carries a game.

 

[Payne]

Looks like KJ will be great value this year.

 

[Big Score]

Martz is not good for running backs. Faulk had success because he was such a great wide receiver. But more times than not I believe Martz would prefer to throw 60 times a game then run the ball 20 times a game.

So the question is, how good of a wide receiver is Kevin Jones? Personally, I think he is above average, however I don't see Mike Martz giving him more than 20 carries a game.

See, you're still looking at this as Martz being the Head Coach and running the O the way he wants. But Martz is the OC now and if he starts getting a little silly with his play calling, I have the feeling Marinelli will put the muzzle on him.

 

[BlueOnion]

Martz is not good for running backs.  Faulk had success because he was such a great wide receiver.  But more times than not I believe Martz would prefer to throw 60 times a game then run the ball 20 times a game.

So the question is, how good of a wide receiver is Kevin Jones?  Personally, I think he is above average, however I don't see Mike Martz giving him more than 20 carries a game.

See, you're still looking at this as Martz being the Head Coach and running the O the way he wants. But Martz is the OC now and if he starts getting a little silly with his play calling, I have the feeling Marinelli will put the muzzle on him.

Quality counter-point. However, I think Martz' ego and stubborness will ultimately prevail (at least until the offseason in which Marinelli may release him).I just don't see anyway possible in which Marinelli can make Mike Martz do anything that Mike Martz doesn't want to do.

 

[Big Score]

Martz is not good for running backs.  Faulk had success because he was such a great wide receiver.   But more times than not I believe Martz would prefer to throw 60 times a game then run the ball 20 times a game.

So the question is, how good of a wide receiver is Kevin Jones?  Personally, I think he is above average, however I don't see Mike Martz giving him more than 20 carries a game.

See, you're still looking at this as Martz being the Head Coach and running the O the way he wants. But Martz is the OC now and if he starts getting a little silly with his play calling, I have the feeling Marinelli will put the muzzle on him.

Quality counter-point. However, I think Martz' ego and stubborness will ultimately prevail (at least until the offseason in which Marinelli may release him).I just don't see anyway possible in which Marinelli can make Mike Martz do anything that Mike Martz doesn't want to do.

We do know that they've butted heads already and it was Martz who got on his scooter and left. Of course he came back the next day with his tail between his legs.It's Marinelli's show and he's let Martz know it early.

 

[BlueOnion]

Martz is not good for running backs.  Faulk had success because he was such a great wide receiver.   But more times than not I believe Martz would prefer to throw 60 times a game then run the ball 20 times a game.

So the question is, how good of a wide receiver is Kevin Jones?  Personally, I think he is above average, however I don't see Mike Martz giving him more than 20 carries a game.

See, you're still looking at this as Martz being the Head Coach and running the O the way he wants. But Martz is the OC now and if he starts getting a little silly with his play calling, I have the feeling Marinelli will put the muzzle on him.

Quality counter-point. However, I think Martz' ego and stubborness will ultimately prevail (at least until the offseason in which Marinelli may release him).I just don't see anyway possible in which Marinelli can make Mike Martz do anything that Mike Martz doesn't want to do.

We do know that they've butted heads already and it was Martz who got on his scooter and left. Of course he came back the next day with his tail between his legs.It's Marinelli's show and he's let Martz know it early.

Marinelli would not be the first head coach Martz has pushed out from the offensive coordinator position. If Mike Martz was walking down a side walk and encountered a brick wall, I am fairly certain Mike Martz would repeatedly walk into the brick wall until one of two things happened; the brick wall fell down or Mike Martz died from head wounds. Clearly walking an extra 10 feet to walk around the wall would be more logical, but it is not Mike Martz' way.

 

[Big Score]

If Mike Martz was walking down a side walk and encountered a brick wall, I am fairly certain Mike Martz would repeatedly walk into the brick wall until one of two things happened; the brick wall fell down or Mike Martz died from head wounds. Clearly walking an extra 10 feet to walk around the wall would be more logical, but it is not Mike Martz' way.

You're probably not that far from the truth either!

 

[Baracuda]

Martz is not good for running backs.  Faulk had success because he was such a great wide receiver.   But more times than not I believe Martz would prefer to throw 60 times a game then run the ball 20 times a game.

So the question is, how good of a wide receiver is Kevin Jones?  Personally, I think he is above average, however I don't see Mike Martz giving him more than 20 carries a game.

See, you're still looking at this as Martz being the Head Coach and running the O the way he wants. But Martz is the OC now and if he starts getting a little silly with his play calling, I have the feeling Marinelli will put the muzzle on him.

Good point, Big Score. But on the flip side, Detroit probably didn't bring in Martz thinking he would completely change his style of play calling. I think it's fair to say that KJ's value needs to be discounted until he proves otherwise. I guess more concerning to me than having Martz as KJ's OC is his lack of production in the NFL during his first two years and his injury issues. Maybe they go hand and hand. Either way, KJ has had bigtime trouble staying on the field, his good games in 2004 (there were no good games in 2005) came against weak defenses (GB, Ten, Minn (2x), Ari racking up all those big yards that we all got excited about), and now there's new competition for his job after a down year in 2005.

I'm a big believer in buying low, but this could be a case of the value trap--where a player looks cheap and gets even cheaper. I certainly wouldn't value him as a strong #2 heading into next year. Rather I'd put him in the 20-24 vicinity, making him a weak #2 in a 12-team league. That seems about right to me because at that point all the RBs will have questions.

Here's the link in case you wanted to review KJ's 2004 first hand:

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/492975/gamelogs/2004

 

[Liquid Tension]

Martz is not good for running backs.  Faulk had success because he was such a great wide receiver.   But more times than not I believe Martz would prefer to throw 60 times a game then run the ball 20 times a game.

So the question is, how good of a wide receiver is Kevin Jones?  Personally, I think he is above average, however I don't see Mike Martz giving him more than 20 carries a game.

See, you're still looking at this as Martz being the Head Coach and running the O the way he wants. But Martz is the OC now and if he starts getting a little silly with his play calling, I have the feeling Marinelli will put the muzzle on him.

Good point, Big Score. But on the flip side, Detroit probably didn't bring in Martz thinking he would completely change his style of play calling. I think it's fair to say that KJ's value needs to be discounted until he proves otherwise. I guess more concerning to me than having Martz as KJ's OC is his lack of production in the NFL during his first two years and his injury issues. Maybe they go hand and hand. Either way, KJ has had bigtime trouble staying on the field, his good games in 2004 (there were no good games in 2005) came against weak defenses (GB, Ten, Minn (2x), Ari racking up all those big yards that we all got excited about), and now there's new competition for his job after a down year in 2005.

I'm a big believer in buying low, but this could be a case of the value trap--where a player looks cheap and gets even cheaper. I certainly wouldn't value him as a strong #2 heading into next year. Rather I'd put him in the 20-24 vicinity, making him a weak #2 in a 12-team league. That seems about right to me because at that point all the RBs will have questions.

Here's the link in case you wanted to review KJ's 2004 first hand:

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/492975/gamelogs/2004

People say that KJ did it against poor teams, but I think that is a little disingenuous. I watched every play of the Giant game and the guy was a beast; th only thing I couldn't understand was why they didn't give him the ball more. Also, late in the year, he had a solid game against the Bears defense. Yes, his games where he averaged over 7 YPC were at home against weaker defenses, but the issue was the play calling. Now in 05 the terrible coaching was still prevalent AND he really got dinged up too much and those are valid concerns. I still think KJ is the biggest ? in fantasy because he has uber talent, but his injury history is a concern. One other note, is that I am not sure how good his vision is? He is fast, quick and strong, but doesn't seem to have great vision. In a good offense he would look awesome but if he needs to create, he may struggle. On the positive, I get the impression he is a little young in his development and having a few years under his belt should mature him mentally as well as show up in some of his physical moves On the field. If he stays healthy I expect top 10-15 numbers.

 

[Baracuda]

People say that KJ did it against poor teams, but I think that is a little disingenuous.  I watched every play of the Giant game and the guy was a beast; th only thing I couldn't understand was why they didn't give him the ball more.  Also, late in the year, he had a solid game against the Bears defense.  Yes, his games where he averaged over 7 YPC were at home against weaker defenses, but the issue was the play calling.  Now in 05 the terrible coaching was still prevalent AND he really got dinged up too much and those are valid concerns.  I still think KJ is the biggest ? in fantasy because he has uber talent, but his injury history is a concern.  One other note, is that I am not sure how good his vision is?  He is fast, quick and strong, but doesn't seem to have great vision.  In a good offense he would look awesome but if he needs to create, he may struggle.  On the positive, I get the impression he is a little young in his development and having a few years under his belt should mature him mentally as well as show up in some of his physical moves On the field.  If he stays healthy I expect top 10-15 numbers.

How is it disingenuious to analyze his production in 2004 and form a conclusion? If anything I think it's more disingenuious to tout what a great H2 KJ had of his rookie campaign. You didn't say that, but many others have. A closer look reveals that even his best time period as a RB in the NFL wasn't really all that great.The numbers from the Giants game that your referring to KJ ran for 65 yards on 13 carries that day. I guess we could debate whether that was a good day. That stat line got me 0.0 points in my league. I know because I've owned KJ the last 2 years.For the sake of your fantasy season, please don't value KJ in the top 10-15. Seriously, even if you think that don't pay that price.

 

[topdawg24]

Don't let Calhoun's size fool you though. The guy dishes out as much punishment as he receives. Had 5 games last year with 30 or more carries with a low of 4.4 yds per carry. Not saying this translates anything to the NFL, just that the guy is durable as hell. The same can't be said for KJ. As far as receiving skills...Calhoun makes KJ's receiving skills look non existant. Just my .02

 

[Liquid Tension]

People say that KJ did it against poor teams, but I think that is a little disingenuous.  I watched every play of the Giant game and the guy was a beast; th only thing I couldn't understand was why they didn't give him the ball more.  Also, late in the year, he had a solid game against the Bears defense.  Yes, his games where he averaged over 7 YPC were at home against weaker defenses, but the issue was the play calling.  Now in 05 the terrible coaching was still prevalent AND he really got dinged up too much and those are valid concerns.  I still think KJ is the biggest ? in fantasy because he has uber talent, but his injury history is a concern.  One other note, is that I am not sure how good his vision is?  He is fast, quick and strong, but doesn't seem to have great vision.  In a good offense he would look awesome but if he needs to create, he may struggle.  On the positive, I get the impression he is a little young in his development and having a few years under his belt should mature him mentally as well as show up in some of his physical moves On the field.  If he stays healthy I expect top 10-15 numbers.

How is it disingenuious to analyze his production in 2004 and form a conclusion? If anything I think it's more disingenuious to tout what a great H2 KJ had of his rookie campaign. You didn't say that, but many others have. A closer look reveals that even his best time period as a RB in the NFL wasn't really all that great.The numbers from the Giants game that your referring to KJ ran for 65 yards on 13 carries that day. I guess we could debate whether that was a good day. That stat line got me 0.0 points in my league. I know because I've owned KJ the last 2 years.

For the sake of your fantasy season, please don't value KJ in the top 10-15. Seriously, even if you think that don't pay that price.

Thanks for your fantasy opinion. Of course I was referring to actual football and scouting what I see. yeah, the Giant game was not a good fantasy game, but as I stated he only had 13 carries and at times the Giants ran blitz and he still broke tackles and gained 3 yards when he could have lost 8. Point is he was a monster and I couldn't understand why they didn't use him more in the game; of course bad coaching was the reason.Finally, while you might not have read what I wrote, I said IF KJ stays healthy he will be a top 10-15 back. You seem to think this is preposterous, but if you are the main person in the rushing attack and play every game, you should be top 10-15. All you need to do is get about 75 totals yards a game and score a TD every other game and you are in. Again, assuming playing every game is a big assumption, but that is what i stated. I don't see how that is not reasonable

 

[Baracuda]

Liquid, I read what you wrote, but mispoke. Here is what I meant to say: Don't value KJ as a top 10-15 RB even if he stays healthy. He's not worthy of a being a #1 RB. NO WAY. I watched many games of KJ after owning him the last 2 seasons. It wasn't only due to coaching and injuries, though he sure had a lot of different ones last year. He doesn't run with great vision and he isn't as fast as he was in college, probably because he's heavier now.

Look, draft KJ if you really want to. That's what makes this country so great. Freedom to draft whatever player you want to draft. You think KJ is a monster, then sure, fire away. Personally, I'm not touching KJ unless I'm staring at him as my #3 RB.

 

[softball]

Am I the only one that thinks Brian Calhoun is getting overhyped on this board?

No. JJ Arrington revisited....

 

[Bevo]

That's what makes this country so great. Freedom to draft whatever player you want to draft.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Liquid, I read what you wrote, but mispoke. Here is what I meant to say: Don't value KJ as a top 10-15 RB even if he stays healthy. He's not worthy of a being a #1 RB. NO WAY. I watched many games of KJ after owning him the last 2 seasons. It wasn't only due to coaching and injuries, though he sure had a lot of different ones last year. He doesn't run with great vision and he isn't as fast as he was in college, probably because he's heavier now.

Look, draft KJ if you really want to. That's what makes this country so great. Freedom to draft whatever player you want to draft. You think KJ is a monster, then sure, fire away. Personally, I'm not touching KJ unless I'm staring at him as my #3 RB.

I was trying to figure out why everyone wants to come to this country I do value KJ as a top 10-15 back although I am not comfortable with the injuries or his vision. But I disagree about his speed and physical talent as it is a great size, power, speed combo. He is my #3 back in a 9 man keeper league so I am happy to have him. He is a huge boom or bust candidate though. If I were in a redraft league I would have him ranked lower.

Enjoy

 

[Tau837]

Martz is not good for running backs.  Faulk had success because he was such a great wide receiver.   But more times than not I believe Martz would prefer to throw 60 times a game then run the ball 20 times a game.

So the question is, how good of a wide receiver is Kevin Jones?  Personally, I think he is above average, however I don't see Mike Martz giving him more than 20 carries a game.

Looking just at the running, and ignoring receiving:2000 Faulk 253/1359/18 in 14 games... 243.9 fantasy points would have ranked #8 among RBs overall (where other RBs still got the benefit of their receiving numbers)... 6 of 14 games with 20+ carries

2001 Faulk 260/1382/12 in 14 games... 210.2 fantasy points would have ranked #10 among RBs overall (where other RBs still got the benefit of their receiving numbers)... 7 of 14 games with 20+ carries

2002 Faulk 212/953/8 in 14 games... 143.3 fantasy points would have ranked #26 among RBs overall (where other RBs still got the benefit of their receiving numbers)... but really lost second half of the season to injury, with 151/783/8 rushing in the first 8 games, which was #4 among RBs in rushing fantasy points over that span... 3 of 8 games in that first half with 20+ carries

2003 Faulk 209/818/10 in 11 games... 141.8 fantasy points would have ranked #25 among RBs overall (where other RBs still got the benefit of their receiving numbers)... but he really lost the first half of the season to injury, with 167/702/9 rushing in the last 8 games, which was #8 among RBs in rushing fantasy points over that span... 6 of 8 games in that first half with 20+ carries

2004 RBBC... Faulk & Jackson combined for 339/1447/7 rushing, with each missing two games... 186.7 combined fantasy points would have ranked #17 among RBs and overall (where other RBs still got the benefit of their receiving numbers) and #10 among RBs in rushing fantasy points... 8 of 16 games with 20+ combined carries

2005 Jackson 254/1046/8 in 15 games... 152.6 fantasy points would have ranked #21 among RBs overall (where other RBs still got the benefit of their receiving numbers) and #14 among RBs in rushing fantasy points... 3 of 15 games with 20+ carries, and another 8 games with 16+

While Faulk & Jackson have definitely boosted their rankings substantially due to receiving, I think it is reasonably clear that Martz has typically given his feature back enough carries to be at least top 15 in rushing numbers and typically top 10. The receiving then boosts ranking from there.

If Jones is healthy enough to be featured all season, say 14+ games, it is very hard for me to see him falling outside the top 15.

 

[cws3030]

Am I the only one that thinks Brian Calhoun is getting overhyped on this board?

No. JJ Arrington revisited....

drew/calhoun/norwood one or two of them will be the next jj.arrington one maybe the next warrik dunn