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Kiffin fired. Really. No, I'm serious (1 Viewer)

The raiders job is not a great stepping stone. A few of the good coaches that Al fired for dumb reasons went on to success, most of the crappy coaches that Al hired have gone on to be crappy coaches, or have disappeared. Al Davis is a menace.
He hired young coaches, guys with limited resumes, and he has hired retreads.Every single one of the young coaches he hired, went on to a HC gig somewhere else.

Anyone stating the job is a great stepping stone isn't stating an opinion, it is a fact.
yesart shell and bill callohan and joe bugle have gone on to become a regular mount rushmore of coachdom. I am sure lane kiffin is chomping at the bit to join that pantheon of greatness
Did you miss the 'young' qualifier? No one's questioning that there's been lots of older retreads too.
 
The raiders job is not a great stepping stone. A few of the good coaches that Al fired for dumb reasons went on to success, most of the crappy coaches that Al hired have gone on to be crappy coaches, or have disappeared. Al Davis is a menace.
He hired young coaches, guys with limited resumes, and he has hired retreads.Every single one of the young coaches he hired, went on to a HC gig somewhere else.

Anyone stating the job is a great stepping stone isn't stating an opinion, it is a fact.
yesart shell and bill callohan and joe bugle have gone on to become a regular mount rushmore of coachdom. I am sure lane kiffin is chomping at the bit to join that pantheon of greatness
Did you miss the 'young' qualifier? No one's questioning that there's been lots of older retreads too.
the idea that geting pooped upon ffor a couple of years by al davis is the quickest way to speed your career along is ridiculous, i suppose in that ANY head coaching job gets you closer to more jobs that all head coaching jobs are stepping stoneswell, add in the fact that the senile maniac of an owner will fire you quickly, and i guess maybe you are on to something

still, it seems something akin to lighting your self on fire to get experience in the burn unit.

 
in case it hasn't been posted.got it from a guy i work with... wasn't sure if it was legit even though i heard snippets on Sportscenter and Czaban this morning.within the last 5 minutes, Michelle Tafoya was reading it word for word on the Tirico & Van Pelt show.
September 30th called. They want you to move on into the future.
 
Watching a tape of Jon Ritchie on ESPN News' Hotlist - that dude is a kiss ###. Good Lord, you'd think Davis was still paying his checks. He sounds like he's so in awe of Davis it's insane. I mean, Kiffin isn't lacking fault here, but you can't point to Kiff's interview yesterday as proof he's a liar.

 
in case it hasn't been posted.got it from a guy i work with... wasn't sure if it was legit even though i heard snippets on Sportscenter and Czaban this morning.within the last 5 minutes, Michelle Tafoya was reading it word for word on the Tirico & Van Pelt show.September 12, 2008Dear Lane:Over the past months, you have made a number of public statements thatwere highly critical of, and designed to embarrass and discredit, thisorganization, its players and its coaches. I left you alone duringtraining camp in hopes that you would cease your immature anddestructive campaign.However, you continue to make public statements that are critical of theorganization, its players as whole as well as individual players. Suchstatements constitute conduct detrimental to the Raiders, and I will nolonger stand silently by while you continue to hurt this organization.Further, your contract is quite clear that you work "subject to thedirection and supervision of the General Partner" and that the GeneralPartner has "the exclusive right to do all things, which in its solediscretion are necessary to maintain and improve the club, the footballorganization and their activities."I realized when I hired you that you were young and inexperienced andthat there would be a learning process for you. Your mistakes on playerpersonnel and coaches were overlooked based on our patience with you.But I never dreamt that you would be untruthful in statements to thepress as well as on so many other issues. Your actions are those of acoach looking to make excuses for not winning, rather than a coachfocused on winning.For example, with the exception of Gibril Wilson, you were involved inrecruiting all free agents and determining salaries for them and youwere explicit about your desire to sign Javon Walker and DeAngelo Hallamongst others. All were a must to sign in your eyes, Hall, inparticular, because he played for Greg Knapp in Atlanta and Knapp gavehim high grades. Do not run from that now.I do realize that you did not want us to draft JaMarcus Russell. He is agreat player. Get over it and coach this team on the field, that is whatyou were hired to do. We can win with this team!In regards to your recent fabrications about the defense, during thefinal cuts you made every cut on offense and every cut on defense exceptfor Wakefield on defense and Wand on offense. Furthermore, during thegame Monday night, Rob played your Cover 2 defense and we got killed onan approximately 50-yard touchdown pass and an approximately 70-yardgain that led to a field goal.You meet every week with the defensive coaches to go over both the pastgame and to get a general feel for what will happen during the week inpractice. You have the ability and authority to provide our input duringthose meetings and the preparation of the game plan. I do not haveweekly meetings with Rob (Ryan)-you do.During the week no one has ever told you what to do on either offense ordefense. In addition, no one has ever told you during a game what to doon either offense or defense and you call every play on offense. Duringa game if you want to blitz more, all you have to do is let Rob knowwhat blitz you want and he will do it.Although you continue to use the media to express your dissatisfactionwith others, no one has publicly pointed out to you that in 4 preseasongames and one regular season game played this year, your offense hasscored one first half touchdown. That put tremendous pressure on thedefense.I know that you wanted me to bring your father in to run the defense andthat Monte told me that he wanted to come here even though he was undercontract to Tampa. However, I did not want to tamper with another team.In any event that was over seven months ago. Do not now also run fromthe defense and your responsibilities.This letter constitutes notice that if you further violate any term ofyour contract, in any manner whatsoever, you will be terminated forcause. I trust that this will not occur.A.D. Football, Inc.
:mellow: FYI...i think Moss was traded to the pats for a 4th.
What a suck situation. Moss staying a Raider, he would have been right around Ron Curry level is right now. That guy is a piece of crap I don't care how well he plays when he's "happy".
 
Kiffin has had a year of potshots at his defense, owner, and players. Davis fires back, defending not only himself, but his players. And he is out of line?
If this was even close to true, don't you think Davis would've fired Kiffin in the off-season? Marcus Allen was put in the dog-house for much much less than you imply Kiffin has said and done.
 
As a life long Raider fan, I used to hold Al in such high regard, he seems like such a POS now, I can't wait for the day that he no longer can run that franchise into the ground.

Asomugha was on ESPN and NFLN and said the players all liked and believed in Kiffin, that is enough to make me think Al is the liar here. If he was all the things Al makes him out to be there is no way in hell the players would respect him. Hell, even Cable said he busted his ### everyday trying to turn the team around.

 
Tom Servo said:
mr. furley said:
in case it hasn't been posted.got it from a guy i work with... wasn't sure if it was legit even though i heard snippets on Sportscenter and Czaban this morning.within the last 5 minutes, Michelle Tafoya was reading it word for word on the Tirico & Van Pelt show.
September 30th called. They want you to move on into the future.
:)
 
Kiffin has had a year of potshots at his defense, owner, and players. Davis fires back, defending not only himself, but his players. And he is out of line?
If this was even close to true, don't you think Davis would've fired Kiffin in the off-season? Marcus Allen was put in the dog-house for much much less than you imply Kiffin has said and done.
What are you talking about? I am not implying Kiffin has said or done anything. It is documented fact. F-A-C-T.

Really, the only thing I am speculating on is the Arkansas thing, and I am not making any assumptions there. Only thing we know for sure is that there were rumors, Kiffin did not squash them, and Al confirmed that Kiffin wanted it. To my mind, those facts are pretty telling that Kiffin wanted the job. I'd love to hear someone's reasoning on why it is unlikely that the Arkansas rumors are false.

And I keep harping on the Arkansas thing, because frankly, that's all we need to know about Kiffin.

 
PatrickT said:
massraider said:
No prob, dude. Ok, I think I get what you're saying. And it appears to boil down to

A) Al is not senile or an idiot.

Agree. I think he's paranoid and a control freak.

B) This wasn't all his fault.

Agree again. But I still think it's mostly his fault.

Peter King had an interesting monologue this AM on SIrius. He essentially said Kiffin had two strikes before he even coached his first pre-season game. One was the fact that he didn't want to draft Jamarcus Russell. He advocated a trade for Schaub, but it never happened. Two was insisting that they get rid of Moss. Supposedly, when Moss went to NE and put up career numbers, Al nearly snapped. Three was Arkansas. Again, just quoting King here.

Arkansas seems to be central to your arguments, so we'll go there. I have yet to see any confirmation that didn't come from Al Davis that Kiffin wanted the Arkansas job. I remember rumors swirling about Syracuse, but not Arkansas. According to Peter King, someone (he hinted that it was Jerry Jones, but couldn't confirm it. As a sidebar, he was rumored to have called Blank on behalf of Arkansas as well), called Al and asked for permission to speak to Kiffin. Al agreed to let it happen after the season. Arkansas said they couldn't wait til then, and Al refused. So, going back to the paranoid part, this MAY be where this is coming from. He may have assumed he wanted it. At least, I've not seen other evidence.

I think we nearly all agree that Kiffin looked like he was improving the team, so it seems clear that the team was playing for him. Aso confirmed that he was well liked in the locker room, despite McDonald's claim on his lack of people skills.. MacDonald also made it clear that Kiffin was stripped of power, forced to interview candidates he didn't want and keep coordinators he didn't want. Wouldn't you want out of a job like that? Now, I'm not excusing throwing games to get fired, that's inexcusable. He could've just resigned. But maybe he thought that was the only way he could get the rest of the money out of the contract.

I can't, however, speak to him bad mouthing his players in public, I never heard it, but really, would he be the first head coach to do that? Parcells made a career out of it. Some coaches motivate their players that way. Schottenheimer once said in a PC that Larry Johnson needed to take his diaper off.

I thought a key moment in the PC was when a reporter asked Cable about how he'd handle a locker room where a well liked coach was just fired, so something like that. Al had to point out that hey, the team likes the owner too. They like the owner and the organization. He looked like he couldn't STAND the thought that even one player might like Kiffin more than him.

Al Davis is and always will be an NFL icon. But he's this team's worst enemy right now, in my opinion.
You're right, I did miss most of this.Addressing the Arkansas thing, I'm not sure what kind of confirmation you are looking for. We had rumors, no denial from Kiffin, and a confirmation from Al. That might not be a duck, but it sure walks and talks like one. Am I 100% that Kiffin showed interest in the job? No, I am not. But it seems a lot more likely than a rumor that came from absolutely nowhere, that Al added to by lying about. Really, what are the chances of that, and which is more likely, do you think?

You keep saying you don't remember rumors about Kiffin and Arkansas, and don't recall him bad-mouthing his players, and the owner. Then, when I tell you where to find them, you make a snide comment about not keeping up on my team. If you don't keep up on my team, then you think maybe it's possible that you might have less information than me? You think it's possible that you position might be less informed? I don't expect everyone to keep up on everyone else's team. But you asked for "documentation", and I laid out quite a bit. I haven't gotten too much in the way of a credible argument against what I have been saying. I have gotten "I don't recall that", and "Dude, this is STILL mostly Al's fault".

A lot of people have disagreed with me here, and that's fine. Feel free to convince me otherwise. The problem is that people cannot wrap their head around the idea that both men are wrong. I was simply one person offering the notion that Kiffin was less than honorable in his own dealings.

That doesn't absolve Al Davis. But see, I don't need to bash Al, that's already being done (and been done by myself already).

But offering the facts about Kiffin? Well, that's just me.

1. Kiffin refused to refute the Arkansas rumors last offseason, which really stinks considering how open and forthcoming he has been since free agency started. He has no problem talking to the media about how badly he thought his DC was doing, how unhappy he was with the roster, and on and on and on. But he had no comment on Arkansas. He made a point to not wear Raider gear at the Senior Bowl, and did nothing to put out the media fire that followed.

2. He attempted to fire his DC without alerting the owner. This isn't just a Raider thing, there aren't too many jobs in the NFL where the owner reads about a DC getting fired in the paper. And in Oakland, Kiffin knew he didn't have complete autonomy. he knew that when he was hired. That was direct insubordination.

3. Starting after the draft, Kiffin made it clear to anyone with a pen and a mic, that he took no responsibility for the free agent moves, and that he was unhappy with the way the owner conducted business. His veiled attacks were noted in most every column in which he made them. David White, Tim Kawakami, Jerry MacDonald, and Jason Jones all commented on Kiffin's barely disguised shots at his defensive coordinator, and owner.

4. In the Buffalo game, he refused to used two timeouts, as the Bills killed the clock and lined up for a game-winning field goal.

5. In the Chargers game, he let time run off the clock in the first half, and to set up Janikowski for a 76 yard attempt.

The great thing about Al's comments are, they are specific. So if they are untrue, then we will hear it very soon, because Al's "lies" involve very specific people, and very specific times and places. And if Al is lying, then Kiffin has a very good lawsuit on his hands. Anyone want to place a bet on Kiffin filing, and winning such a suit?
I'm getting tired of this conversation. It's boiling down to "my speculation is better than your speculation". But I'll play along for a few final thoughts.Almost everyone on here who's made a thoughtful post on this subject has acknowledged that Lane bears some culpability, but that has not satisfied you. You seem hellbent on making sure that everyone knows that it's least 50/50 or even that it's mostly Lane's fault. No one is buying it. And despite your claims that your not defending Al, that's exactly what you've done in most of this thread.

As for my "snide comment", you still haven't offered a link to those comments, you've just told me that they're in the Raiders season threads. If you expect me to search the boards and read the entirety of the threads in order to help you make your case, you're mistaken. And I did speak SPECIFICALLY to this when I said it's not uncommon for coaches to call out their players in the media, and gave examples, none of which you've acknowledged. Maybe Lane went over the line, he obviously did from your perspective. But really, I don't care that much anymore. I concede that Kiffin bad mouthed his team in the press in an unprofessional manner. As long as you can concede that perhaps Al doesn't create the cheeriest work environment, and maybe he got tired of being forced to work with players and coaches he felt he couldn't win with. Doesn't justify the actions you list above, not saying that at all. Those are all supremely unprofessional actions by Kiffin.

You're absolutely right, I dont' follow the Raiders. That means I don't house all the tiny insider details on them. I also don't have the fan blinders on either. You keep SAYING you admit that Al's got a lot to do with it, and then continue to do a character assassination on Kiffin. Kiffin's no angel. Got it. Let's go to the next subject.
That's pretty much all I wanted to hear. Doesn't it feel good when people teach you things?

 
NoFBinLA said:
Watching a tape of Jon Ritchie on ESPN News' Hotlist - that dude is a kiss ###. Good Lord, you'd think Davis was still paying his checks. He sounds like he's so in awe of Davis it's insane. I mean, Kiffin isn't lacking fault here, but you can't point to Kiff's interview yesterday as proof he's a liar.
No kidding. He kept calling him "Mr. Davis" throughout the interview as if he was still working for the guy. I am sure if Davis refused to pay out Ritchie's contract and called him a liar that he would have a much different take on the situation.
 
PatrickT said:
massraider said:
No prob, dude. Ok, I think I get what you're saying. And it appears to boil down to

A) Al is not senile or an idiot.

Agree. I think he's paranoid and a control freak.

B) This wasn't all his fault.

Agree again. But I still think it's mostly his fault.

Peter King had an interesting monologue this AM on SIrius. He essentially said Kiffin had two strikes before he even coached his first pre-season game. One was the fact that he didn't want to draft Jamarcus Russell. He advocated a trade for Schaub, but it never happened. Two was insisting that they get rid of Moss. Supposedly, when Moss went to NE and put up career numbers, Al nearly snapped. Three was Arkansas. Again, just quoting King here.

Arkansas seems to be central to your arguments, so we'll go there. I have yet to see any confirmation that didn't come from Al Davis that Kiffin wanted the Arkansas job. I remember rumors swirling about Syracuse, but not Arkansas. According to Peter King, someone (he hinted that it was Jerry Jones, but couldn't confirm it. As a sidebar, he was rumored to have called Blank on behalf of Arkansas as well), called Al and asked for permission to speak to Kiffin. Al agreed to let it happen after the season. Arkansas said they couldn't wait til then, and Al refused. So, going back to the paranoid part, this MAY be where this is coming from. He may have assumed he wanted it. At least, I've not seen other evidence.

I think we nearly all agree that Kiffin looked like he was improving the team, so it seems clear that the team was playing for him. Aso confirmed that he was well liked in the locker room, despite McDonald's claim on his lack of people skills.. MacDonald also made it clear that Kiffin was stripped of power, forced to interview candidates he didn't want and keep coordinators he didn't want. Wouldn't you want out of a job like that? Now, I'm not excusing throwing games to get fired, that's inexcusable. He could've just resigned. But maybe he thought that was the only way he could get the rest of the money out of the contract.

I can't, however, speak to him bad mouthing his players in public, I never heard it, but really, would he be the first head coach to do that? Parcells made a career out of it. Some coaches motivate their players that way. Schottenheimer once said in a PC that Larry Johnson needed to take his diaper off.

I thought a key moment in the PC was when a reporter asked Cable about how he'd handle a locker room where a well liked coach was just fired, so something like that. Al had to point out that hey, the team likes the owner too. They like the owner and the organization. He looked like he couldn't STAND the thought that even one player might like Kiffin more than him.

Al Davis is and always will be an NFL icon. But he's this team's worst enemy right now, in my opinion.
You're right, I did miss most of this.Addressing the Arkansas thing, I'm not sure what kind of confirmation you are looking for. We had rumors, no denial from Kiffin, and a confirmation from Al. That might not be a duck, but it sure walks and talks like one. Am I 100% that Kiffin showed interest in the job? No, I am not. But it seems a lot more likely than a rumor that came from absolutely nowhere, that Al added to by lying about. Really, what are the chances of that, and which is more likely, do you think?

You keep saying you don't remember rumors about Kiffin and Arkansas, and don't recall him bad-mouthing his players, and the owner. Then, when I tell you where to find them, you make a snide comment about not keeping up on my team. If you don't keep up on my team, then you think maybe it's possible that you might have less information than me? You think it's possible that you position might be less informed? I don't expect everyone to keep up on everyone else's team. But you asked for "documentation", and I laid out quite a bit. I haven't gotten too much in the way of a credible argument against what I have been saying. I have gotten "I don't recall that", and "Dude, this is STILL mostly Al's fault".

A lot of people have disagreed with me here, and that's fine. Feel free to convince me otherwise. The problem is that people cannot wrap their head around the idea that both men are wrong. I was simply one person offering the notion that Kiffin was less than honorable in his own dealings.

That doesn't absolve Al Davis. But see, I don't need to bash Al, that's already being done (and been done by myself already).

But offering the facts about Kiffin? Well, that's just me.

1. Kiffin refused to refute the Arkansas rumors last offseason, which really stinks considering how open and forthcoming he has been since free agency started. He has no problem talking to the media about how badly he thought his DC was doing, how unhappy he was with the roster, and on and on and on. But he had no comment on Arkansas. He made a point to not wear Raider gear at the Senior Bowl, and did nothing to put out the media fire that followed.

2. He attempted to fire his DC without alerting the owner. This isn't just a Raider thing, there aren't too many jobs in the NFL where the owner reads about a DC getting fired in the paper. And in Oakland, Kiffin knew he didn't have complete autonomy. he knew that when he was hired. That was direct insubordination.

3. Starting after the draft, Kiffin made it clear to anyone with a pen and a mic, that he took no responsibility for the free agent moves, and that he was unhappy with the way the owner conducted business. His veiled attacks were noted in most every column in which he made them. David White, Tim Kawakami, Jerry MacDonald, and Jason Jones all commented on Kiffin's barely disguised shots at his defensive coordinator, and owner.

4. In the Buffalo game, he refused to used two timeouts, as the Bills killed the clock and lined up for a game-winning field goal.

5. In the Chargers game, he let time run off the clock in the first half, and to set up Janikowski for a 76 yard attempt.

The great thing about Al's comments are, they are specific. So if they are untrue, then we will hear it very soon, because Al's "lies" involve very specific people, and very specific times and places. And if Al is lying, then Kiffin has a very good lawsuit on his hands. Anyone want to place a bet on Kiffin filing, and winning such a suit?
I'm getting tired of this conversation. It's boiling down to "my speculation is better than your speculation". But I'll play along for a few final thoughts.Almost everyone on here who's made a thoughtful post on this subject has acknowledged that Lane bears some culpability, but that has not satisfied you. You seem hellbent on making sure that everyone knows that it's least 50/50 or even that it's mostly Lane's fault. No one is buying it. And despite your claims that your not defending Al, that's exactly what you've done in most of this thread.

As for my "snide comment", you still haven't offered a link to those comments, you've just told me that they're in the Raiders season threads. If you expect me to search the boards and read the entirety of the threads in order to help you make your case, you're mistaken. And I did speak SPECIFICALLY to this when I said it's not uncommon for coaches to call out their players in the media, and gave examples, none of which you've acknowledged. Maybe Lane went over the line, he obviously did from your perspective. But really, I don't care that much anymore. I concede that Kiffin bad mouthed his team in the press in an unprofessional manner. As long as you can concede that perhaps Al doesn't create the cheeriest work environment, and maybe he got tired of being forced to work with players and coaches he felt he couldn't win with. Doesn't justify the actions you list above, not saying that at all. Those are all supremely unprofessional actions by Kiffin.

You're absolutely right, I dont' follow the Raiders. That means I don't house all the tiny insider details on them. I also don't have the fan blinders on either. You keep SAYING you admit that Al's got a lot to do with it, and then continue to do a character assassination on Kiffin. Kiffin's no angel. Got it. Let's go to the next subject.
That's pretty much all I wanted to hear. Doesn't it feel good when people teach you things?
Classy. I've tried to have a reasonable conversation with you, and you want to chuck it my face as a "lesson". Here's a lesson for you. Your owner you've spent all this time defending, took the first coach that looked like he might turn the team around and showed him the door, and looked like an ### in the process.And now you've joined him.

 
PatrickT said:
massraider said:
No prob, dude. Ok, I think I get what you're saying. And it appears to boil down to

A) Al is not senile or an idiot.

Agree. I think he's paranoid and a control freak.

B) This wasn't all his fault.

Agree again. But I still think it's mostly his fault.

Peter King had an interesting monologue this AM on SIrius. He essentially said Kiffin had two strikes before he even coached his first pre-season game. One was the fact that he didn't want to draft Jamarcus Russell. He advocated a trade for Schaub, but it never happened. Two was insisting that they get rid of Moss. Supposedly, when Moss went to NE and put up career numbers, Al nearly snapped. Three was Arkansas. Again, just quoting King here.

Arkansas seems to be central to your arguments, so we'll go there. I have yet to see any confirmation that didn't come from Al Davis that Kiffin wanted the Arkansas job. I remember rumors swirling about Syracuse, but not Arkansas. According to Peter King, someone (he hinted that it was Jerry Jones, but couldn't confirm it. As a sidebar, he was rumored to have called Blank on behalf of Arkansas as well), called Al and asked for permission to speak to Kiffin. Al agreed to let it happen after the season. Arkansas said they couldn't wait til then, and Al refused. So, going back to the paranoid part, this MAY be where this is coming from. He may have assumed he wanted it. At least, I've not seen other evidence.

I think we nearly all agree that Kiffin looked like he was improving the team, so it seems clear that the team was playing for him. Aso confirmed that he was well liked in the locker room, despite McDonald's claim on his lack of people skills.. MacDonald also made it clear that Kiffin was stripped of power, forced to interview candidates he didn't want and keep coordinators he didn't want. Wouldn't you want out of a job like that? Now, I'm not excusing throwing games to get fired, that's inexcusable. He could've just resigned. But maybe he thought that was the only way he could get the rest of the money out of the contract.

I can't, however, speak to him bad mouthing his players in public, I never heard it, but really, would he be the first head coach to do that? Parcells made a career out of it. Some coaches motivate their players that way. Schottenheimer once said in a PC that Larry Johnson needed to take his diaper off.

I thought a key moment in the PC was when a reporter asked Cable about how he'd handle a locker room where a well liked coach was just fired, so something like that. Al had to point out that hey, the team likes the owner too. They like the owner and the organization. He looked like he couldn't STAND the thought that even one player might like Kiffin more than him.

Al Davis is and always will be an NFL icon. But he's this team's worst enemy right now, in my opinion.
You're right, I did miss most of this.Addressing the Arkansas thing, I'm not sure what kind of confirmation you are looking for. We had rumors, no denial from Kiffin, and a confirmation from Al. That might not be a duck, but it sure walks and talks like one. Am I 100% that Kiffin showed interest in the job? No, I am not. But it seems a lot more likely than a rumor that came from absolutely nowhere, that Al added to by lying about. Really, what are the chances of that, and which is more likely, do you think?

You keep saying you don't remember rumors about Kiffin and Arkansas, and don't recall him bad-mouthing his players, and the owner. Then, when I tell you where to find them, you make a snide comment about not keeping up on my team. If you don't keep up on my team, then you think maybe it's possible that you might have less information than me? You think it's possible that you position might be less informed? I don't expect everyone to keep up on everyone else's team. But you asked for "documentation", and I laid out quite a bit. I haven't gotten too much in the way of a credible argument against what I have been saying. I have gotten "I don't recall that", and "Dude, this is STILL mostly Al's fault".

A lot of people have disagreed with me here, and that's fine. Feel free to convince me otherwise. The problem is that people cannot wrap their head around the idea that both men are wrong. I was simply one person offering the notion that Kiffin was less than honorable in his own dealings.

That doesn't absolve Al Davis. But see, I don't need to bash Al, that's already being done (and been done by myself already).

But offering the facts about Kiffin? Well, that's just me.

1. Kiffin refused to refute the Arkansas rumors last offseason, which really stinks considering how open and forthcoming he has been since free agency started. He has no problem talking to the media about how badly he thought his DC was doing, how unhappy he was with the roster, and on and on and on. But he had no comment on Arkansas. He made a point to not wear Raider gear at the Senior Bowl, and did nothing to put out the media fire that followed.

2. He attempted to fire his DC without alerting the owner. This isn't just a Raider thing, there aren't too many jobs in the NFL where the owner reads about a DC getting fired in the paper. And in Oakland, Kiffin knew he didn't have complete autonomy. he knew that when he was hired. That was direct insubordination.

3. Starting after the draft, Kiffin made it clear to anyone with a pen and a mic, that he took no responsibility for the free agent moves, and that he was unhappy with the way the owner conducted business. His veiled attacks were noted in most every column in which he made them. David White, Tim Kawakami, Jerry MacDonald, and Jason Jones all commented on Kiffin's barely disguised shots at his defensive coordinator, and owner.

4. In the Buffalo game, he refused to used two timeouts, as the Bills killed the clock and lined up for a game-winning field goal.

5. In the Chargers game, he let time run off the clock in the first half, and to set up Janikowski for a 76 yard attempt.

The great thing about Al's comments are, they are specific. So if they are untrue, then we will hear it very soon, because Al's "lies" involve very specific people, and very specific times and places. And if Al is lying, then Kiffin has a very good lawsuit on his hands. Anyone want to place a bet on Kiffin filing, and winning such a suit?
I'm getting tired of this conversation. It's boiling down to "my speculation is better than your speculation". But I'll play along for a few final thoughts.Almost everyone on here who's made a thoughtful post on this subject has acknowledged that Lane bears some culpability, but that has not satisfied you. You seem hellbent on making sure that everyone knows that it's least 50/50 or even that it's mostly Lane's fault. No one is buying it. And despite your claims that your not defending Al, that's exactly what you've done in most of this thread.

As for my "snide comment", you still haven't offered a link to those comments, you've just told me that they're in the Raiders season threads. If you expect me to search the boards and read the entirety of the threads in order to help you make your case, you're mistaken. And I did speak SPECIFICALLY to this when I said it's not uncommon for coaches to call out their players in the media, and gave examples, none of which you've acknowledged. Maybe Lane went over the line, he obviously did from your perspective. But really, I don't care that much anymore. I concede that Kiffin bad mouthed his team in the press in an unprofessional manner. As long as you can concede that perhaps Al doesn't create the cheeriest work environment, and maybe he got tired of being forced to work with players and coaches he felt he couldn't win with. Doesn't justify the actions you list above, not saying that at all. Those are all supremely unprofessional actions by Kiffin.

You're absolutely right, I dont' follow the Raiders. That means I don't house all the tiny insider details on them. I also don't have the fan blinders on either. You keep SAYING you admit that Al's got a lot to do with it, and then continue to do a character assassination on Kiffin. Kiffin's no angel. Got it. Let's go to the next subject.
That's pretty much all I wanted to hear. Doesn't it feel good when people teach you things?
Classy. I've tried to have a reasonable conversation with you, and you want to chuck it my face as a "lesson".
No, you haven't. You challenged me to back up one statement, I did. you didn't want to hear the answer, and then tell me I have just been blindly defending Al. If you don't want the answer, don't ask the question.

 
Kiffin promised a presser today....what a lair.
:thumbup: I am thinking his attorneys got a hold of him and told him it wasn't a good idea to have one at this point. Al may have done more harm than good by having his press conference yesterday to discuss the specific reasons for the termination.
 
PatrickT said:
massraider said:
No prob, dude. Ok, I think I get what you're saying. And it appears to boil down to

A) Al is not senile or an idiot.

Agree. I think he's paranoid and a control freak.

B) This wasn't all his fault.

Agree again. But I still think it's mostly his fault.

Peter King had an interesting monologue this AM on SIrius. He essentially said Kiffin had two strikes before he even coached his first pre-season game. One was the fact that he didn't want to draft Jamarcus Russell. He advocated a trade for Schaub, but it never happened. Two was insisting that they get rid of Moss. Supposedly, when Moss went to NE and put up career numbers, Al nearly snapped. Three was Arkansas. Again, just quoting King here.

Arkansas seems to be central to your arguments, so we'll go there. I have yet to see any confirmation that didn't come from Al Davis that Kiffin wanted the Arkansas job. I remember rumors swirling about Syracuse, but not Arkansas. According to Peter King, someone (he hinted that it was Jerry Jones, but couldn't confirm it. As a sidebar, he was rumored to have called Blank on behalf of Arkansas as well), called Al and asked for permission to speak to Kiffin. Al agreed to let it happen after the season. Arkansas said they couldn't wait til then, and Al refused. So, going back to the paranoid part, this MAY be where this is coming from. He may have assumed he wanted it. At least, I've not seen other evidence.

I think we nearly all agree that Kiffin looked like he was improving the team, so it seems clear that the team was playing for him. Aso confirmed that he was well liked in the locker room, despite McDonald's claim on his lack of people skills.. MacDonald also made it clear that Kiffin was stripped of power, forced to interview candidates he didn't want and keep coordinators he didn't want. Wouldn't you want out of a job like that? Now, I'm not excusing throwing games to get fired, that's inexcusable. He could've just resigned. But maybe he thought that was the only way he could get the rest of the money out of the contract.

I can't, however, speak to him bad mouthing his players in public, I never heard it, but really, would he be the first head coach to do that? Parcells made a career out of it. Some coaches motivate their players that way. Schottenheimer once said in a PC that Larry Johnson needed to take his diaper off.

I thought a key moment in the PC was when a reporter asked Cable about how he'd handle a locker room where a well liked coach was just fired, so something like that. Al had to point out that hey, the team likes the owner too. They like the owner and the organization. He looked like he couldn't STAND the thought that even one player might like Kiffin more than him.

Al Davis is and always will be an NFL icon. But he's this team's worst enemy right now, in my opinion.
You're right, I did miss most of this.Addressing the Arkansas thing, I'm not sure what kind of confirmation you are looking for. We had rumors, no denial from Kiffin, and a confirmation from Al. That might not be a duck, but it sure walks and talks like one. Am I 100% that Kiffin showed interest in the job? No, I am not. But it seems a lot more likely than a rumor that came from absolutely nowhere, that Al added to by lying about. Really, what are the chances of that, and which is more likely, do you think?

You keep saying you don't remember rumors about Kiffin and Arkansas, and don't recall him bad-mouthing his players, and the owner. Then, when I tell you where to find them, you make a snide comment about not keeping up on my team. If you don't keep up on my team, then you think maybe it's possible that you might have less information than me? You think it's possible that you position might be less informed? I don't expect everyone to keep up on everyone else's team. But you asked for "documentation", and I laid out quite a bit. I haven't gotten too much in the way of a credible argument against what I have been saying. I have gotten "I don't recall that", and "Dude, this is STILL mostly Al's fault".

A lot of people have disagreed with me here, and that's fine. Feel free to convince me otherwise. The problem is that people cannot wrap their head around the idea that both men are wrong. I was simply one person offering the notion that Kiffin was less than honorable in his own dealings.

That doesn't absolve Al Davis. But see, I don't need to bash Al, that's already being done (and been done by myself already).

But offering the facts about Kiffin? Well, that's just me.

1. Kiffin refused to refute the Arkansas rumors last offseason, which really stinks considering how open and forthcoming he has been since free agency started. He has no problem talking to the media about how badly he thought his DC was doing, how unhappy he was with the roster, and on and on and on. But he had no comment on Arkansas. He made a point to not wear Raider gear at the Senior Bowl, and did nothing to put out the media fire that followed.

2. He attempted to fire his DC without alerting the owner. This isn't just a Raider thing, there aren't too many jobs in the NFL where the owner reads about a DC getting fired in the paper. And in Oakland, Kiffin knew he didn't have complete autonomy. he knew that when he was hired. That was direct insubordination.

3. Starting after the draft, Kiffin made it clear to anyone with a pen and a mic, that he took no responsibility for the free agent moves, and that he was unhappy with the way the owner conducted business. His veiled attacks were noted in most every column in which he made them. David White, Tim Kawakami, Jerry MacDonald, and Jason Jones all commented on Kiffin's barely disguised shots at his defensive coordinator, and owner.

4. In the Buffalo game, he refused to used two timeouts, as the Bills killed the clock and lined up for a game-winning field goal.

5. In the Chargers game, he let time run off the clock in the first half, and to set up Janikowski for a 76 yard attempt.

The great thing about Al's comments are, they are specific. So if they are untrue, then we will hear it very soon, because Al's "lies" involve very specific people, and very specific times and places. And if Al is lying, then Kiffin has a very good lawsuit on his hands. Anyone want to place a bet on Kiffin filing, and winning such a suit?
I'm getting tired of this conversation. It's boiling down to "my speculation is better than your speculation". But I'll play along for a few final thoughts.Almost everyone on here who's made a thoughtful post on this subject has acknowledged that Lane bears some culpability, but that has not satisfied you. You seem hellbent on making sure that everyone knows that it's least 50/50 or even that it's mostly Lane's fault. No one is buying it. And despite your claims that your not defending Al, that's exactly what you've done in most of this thread.

As for my "snide comment", you still haven't offered a link to those comments, you've just told me that they're in the Raiders season threads. If you expect me to search the boards and read the entirety of the threads in order to help you make your case, you're mistaken. And I did speak SPECIFICALLY to this when I said it's not uncommon for coaches to call out their players in the media, and gave examples, none of which you've acknowledged. Maybe Lane went over the line, he obviously did from your perspective. But really, I don't care that much anymore. I concede that Kiffin bad mouthed his team in the press in an unprofessional manner. As long as you can concede that perhaps Al doesn't create the cheeriest work environment, and maybe he got tired of being forced to work with players and coaches he felt he couldn't win with. Doesn't justify the actions you list above, not saying that at all. Those are all supremely unprofessional actions by Kiffin.

You're absolutely right, I dont' follow the Raiders. That means I don't house all the tiny insider details on them. I also don't have the fan blinders on either. You keep SAYING you admit that Al's got a lot to do with it, and then continue to do a character assassination on Kiffin. Kiffin's no angel. Got it. Let's go to the next subject.
That's pretty much all I wanted to hear. Doesn't it feel good when people teach you things?
Classy. I've tried to have a reasonable conversation with you, and you want to chuck it my face as a "lesson".
No, you haven't. You challenged me to back up one statement, I did. you didn't want to hear the answer, and then tell me I have just been blindly defending Al. If you don't want the answer, don't ask the question.
Trust me, I have the all the answer I need regarding you.
 
Patrick said:
mass raider said:
No prob, dude. OK, I think I get what you're saying. And it appears to boil down to

A) Al is not senile or an idiot.

Agree. I think he's paranoid and a control freak.

B) This wasn't all his fault.

Agree again. But I still think it's mostly his fault.

Peter King had an interesting monologue this AM on Sirius. He essentially said Coffin had two strikes before he even coached his first pre-season game. One was the fact that he didn't want to draft Jamarcus Russell. He advocated a trade for Schaub, but it never happened. Two was insisting that they get rid of Moss. Supposedly, when Moss went to NE and put up career numbers, Al nearly snapped. Three was Arkansas. Again, just quoting King here.

Arkansas seems to be central to your arguments, so we'll go there. I have yet to see any confirmation that didn't come from Al Davis that Kiffin wanted the Arkansas job. I remember rumors swirling about Syracuse, but not Arkansas. According to Peter King, someone (he hinted that it was Jerry Jones, but couldn't confirm it. As a sidebar, he was rumored to have called Blank on behalf of Arkansas as well), called Al and asked for permission to speak to Kiffin. Al agreed to let it happen after the season. Arkansas said they couldn't wait tail then, and Al refused. So, going back to the paranoid part, this MAY be where this is coming from. He may have assumed he wanted it. At least, I've not seen other evidence.

I think we nearly all agree that Kiffin looked like he was improving the team, so it seems clear that the team was playing for him. Aso confirmed that he was well liked in the locker room, despite McDonald's claim on his lack of people skills.. MacDonald also made it clear that Kiffin was stripped of power, forced to interview candidates he didn't want and keep coordinators he didn't want. Wouldn't you want out of a job like that? Now, I'm not excusing throwing games to get fired, that's inexcusable. He could've just resigned. But maybe he thought that was the only way he could get the rest of the money out of the contract.

I can't, however, speak to him bad mouthing his players in public, I never heard it, but really, would he be the first head coach to do that? Parcells made a career out of it. Some coaches motivate their players that way. Schottenheimer (Actually that was an even more well liked and respected coach that said that to LJ **** Vermeil) once said in a PC that Larry Johnson needed to take his diaper off.

I thought a key moment in the PC was when a reporter asked Cable about how he'd handle a locker room where a well liked coach was just fired, so something like that. Al had to point out that hey, the team likes the owner too. They like the owner and the organization. He looked like he couldn't STAND the thought that even one player might like Kiffin more than him.

Al Davis is and always will be an NFL icon. But he's this team's worst enemy right now, in my opinion.
You're right, I did miss most of this.Addressing the Arkansas thing, I'm not sure what kind of confirmation you are looking for. We had rumors, no denial from Kiffin, and a confirmation from Al. That might not be a duck, but it sure walks and talks like one. Am I 100% that Kiffin showed interest in the job? No, I am not. But it seems a lot more likely than a rumor that came from absolutely nowhere, that Al added to by lying about. Really, what are the chances of that, and which is more likely, do you think?

You keep saying you don't remember rumors about Kiffin and Arkansas, and don't recall him bad-mouthing his players, and the owner. Then, when I tell you where to find them, you make a snide comment about not keeping up on my team. If you don't keep up on my team, then you think maybe it's possible that you might have less information than me? You think it's possible that you position might be less informed? I don't expect everyone to keep up on everyone else's team. But you asked for "documentation", and I laid out quite a bit. I haven't gotten too much in the way of a credible argument against what I have been saying. I have gotten "I don't recall that", and "Dude, this is STILL mostly Al's fault".

A lot of people have disagreed with me here, and that's fine. Feel free to convince me otherwise. The problem is that people cannot wrap their head around the idea that both men are wrong. I was simply one person offering the notion that Kiffin was less than honorable in his own dealings.

That doesn't absolve Al Davis. But see, I don't need to bash Al, that's already being done (and been done by myself already).

But offering the facts about Kiffin? Well, that's just me.

1. Kiffin refused to refute the Arkansas rumors last offseason, which really stinks considering how open and forthcoming he has been since free agency started. He has no problem talking to the media about how badly he thought his DC was doing, how unhappy he was with the roster, and on and on and on. But he had no comment on Arkansas. He made a point to not wear Raider gear at the Senior Bowl, and did nothing to put out the media fire that followed.

2. He attempted to fire his DC without alerting the owner. This isn't just a Raider thing, there aren't too many jobs in the NFL where the owner reads about a DC getting fired in the paper. And in Oakland, Kiffin knew he didn't have complete autonomy. he knew that when he was hired. That was direct insubordination.

3. Starting after the draft, Kiffin made it clear to anyone with a pen and a mic, that he took no responsibility for the free agent moves, and that he was unhappy with the way the owner conducted business. His veiled attacks were noted in most every column in which he made them. David White, Tim Kawakami, Jerry MacDonald, and Jason Jones all commented on Kiffin's barely disguised shots at his defensive coordinator, and owner.

4. In the Buffalo game, he refused to used two timeouts, as the Bills killed the clock and lined up for a game-winning field goal.

5. In the Chargers game, he let time run off the clock in the first half, and to set up Janikowski for a 76 yard attempt.

The great thing about Al's comments are, they are specific. So if they are untrue, then we will hear it very soon, because Al's "lies" involve very specific people, and very specific times and places. And if Al is lying, then Kiffin has a very good lawsuit on his hands. Anyone want to place a bet on Kiffin filing, and winning such a suit?
I'm getting tired of this conversation. It's boiling down to "my speculation is better than your speculation". But I'll play along for a few final thoughts.Almost everyone on here who's made a thoughtful post on this subject has acknowledged that Lane bears some culpability, but that has not satisfied you. You seem hellbent on making sure that everyone knows that it's least 50/50 or even that it's mostly Lane's fault. No one is buying it. And despite your claims that your not defending Al, that's exactly what you've done in most of this thread.

As for my "snide comment", you still haven't offered a link to those comments, you've just told me that they're in the Raiders season threads. If you expect me to search the boards and read the entirety of the threads in order to help you make your case, you're mistaken. And I did speak SPECIFICALLY to this when I said it's not uncommon for coaches to call out their players in the media, and gave examples, none of which you've acknowledged. Maybe Lane went over the line, he obviously did from your perspective. But really, I don't care that much anymore. I concede that Kiffin bad mouthed his team in the press in an unprofessional manner. As long as you can concede that perhaps Al doesn't create the cheeriest work environment, and maybe he got tired of being forced to work with players and coaches he felt he couldn't win with. Doesn't justify the actions you list above, not saying that at all. Those are all supremely unprofessional actions by Kiffin.

You're absolutely right, I dont' follow the Raiders. That means I don't house all the tiny insider details on them. I also don't have the fan blinders on either. You keep SAYING you admit that Al's got a lot to do with it, and then continue to do a character assassination on Kiffin. Kiffin's no angel. Got it. Let's go to the next subject.
That's pretty much all I wanted to hear. Doesn't it feel good when people teach you things?
Classy. I've tried to have a reasonable conversation with you, and you want to chuck it my face as a "lesson".
No, you haven't. You challenged me to back up one statement, I did. you didn't want to hear the answer, and then tell me I have just been blindly defending Al. If you don't want the answer, don't ask the question.
Trust me, I have the all the answer I need regarding you.
It is really hard for me to understand any Raider fan backing AL on this one. I am not saying it was all his fault, just like 97%. Why do you think all the past Raider coaches and players all treat the situation with kid gloves, they never come out and say they think Kiffin is wrong or lying because they know Al is a crazy control freak. The Raiders will never be "better" off until Al is removed. I hope Kiffin sues and wins, although he will not get much if any support from anyone currently on the team because they would be immediately terminated for insubordination and of course not paid.

 
Kiffin promised a presser today....what a lair.
:blackdot: I am thinking his attorneys got a hold of him and told him it wasn't a good idea to have one at this point. Al may have done more harm than good by having his press conference yesterday to discuss the specific reasons for the termination.
Just goes further to proving Al's case....just ask Al.
Actually he's chatting with Sherriff Goodell. Should be interesting conversation.
 
Florio over at PFT made a good point, since the press conference was after Davis fired Kiffin, the contract no longer governs. So while the issue of Kiffin's pay will go through arbitration internally in the NFL, if Davis lied about anything during the press conference, he's looking at a defamation lawsuit. It seems like a lot of the stuff would just be "he said/he said" type stuff, but it would certainly make for an even uglier sideshow.

Al better not have outright lied during that press conference, because if he did, he's going to be paying Kiffin a whole lot more than his remaining salary.

 
All I know is Al Davis chased out 2 coaches who later won Superbowls, 2 with a hated rival, and one against his own team.

Al gets what Al deserves.

 
Florio over at PFT made a good point, since the press conference was after Davis fired Kiffin, the contract no longer governs. So while the issue of Kiffin's pay will go through arbitration internally in the NFL, if Davis lied about anything during the press conference, he's looking at a defamation lawsuit. It seems like a lot of the stuff would just be "he said/he said" type stuff, but it would certainly make for an even uglier sideshow.

Al better not have outright lied during that press conference, because if he did, he's going to be paying Kiffin a whole lot more than his remaining salary.
Overall I didn't think anything Al said about Kiffin was too far-fetched. IMO. it was clear as day that Lane wanted out of the #### hole of a HC job.

 
GordonGekko said:
The base problem is Davis hired someone who didn't fear him. Do you think Phillips or Garrett would have done the same to Jerry Jones?
Ironically, my initial reaction to Kiffin being hired after I heard his age and lack of head coaching experience was that Al found himself another puppet to coach the team. Kiffin ended up being anything but a puppet. The whole dispute almost seems like a father/grandfather trying to chastise his son/grandson for not listening to him. I wonder if Al has the same reaction if he is dealing with a coach that is much older -- it just seems like Al tries to treat Kiffin like a child because of their significant age difference.
 

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