What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

"Knowshon Moreno is Walter Payton" (1 Viewer)

JetMaxx

Footballguy
Milwaukee Journal Sentinel

Green Bay - Georgia's Knowshon Moreno and Ohio State's Chris "Beanie" Wells, the leading running backs, symbolize the overriding theme of the 2009 National Football League draft.

After sizing up this group of running backs, director of player personnel Trent Baalke of the San Francisco 49ers put it this way: "There's value to be had throughout. There's just no superstar."

Moreno, 5 feet 10 1/2 inches and 213 pounds, is an energetic, attacking type of ball carrier who scored 32 touchdowns in his two years at Georgia.

"He's Walter Payton," said one AFC personnel man who was scouting when "Sweetness" came out of Jackson State as the No. 4 pick in 1975. "He looks like Payton, his attitude is just like Payton's and he's got Payton's balance and leaping ability."

Wells, 6-1 and 237, put up 30 touchdowns in his three seasons for the Buckeyes, breaking long run after long run with his see-you-later speed.

"Just like your Larry Johnson, your Steven Jackson," Chicago general manager Jerry Angelo said. "In that mode. Very gifted. He's got great feet for a big man."

Surely, then, both players must be ticketed for the first five or 10 picks in a draft that's so weak at the top?

It sure doesn't look that way four days before the drafting begins.

The problem, at least according to many personnel people, is that each player has a major flaw hindering his chance to become a game-changing back.

Moreno doesn't have great speed. Wells hasn't been durable amid whispers that he isn't tough.

"I thought this group was going to be better," another longtime scout said. "Then when they ran and didn't perform as well as they should . . . it's a very average group. But one of these guys will be the star."

At the combine, Moreno weighed 217 pounds and clocked in at 4.54 seconds in the 40-yard dash on FieldTurf. He was sick for pro day three weeks later, weighed 210 and ran 4.62 twice on a faster artificial surface.

For the purposes of comparison, let's assign Moreno a weight of 213 and a 40 time of 4.54.

A total of 15 running backs weighing 213 pounds or less were drafted in the first round from 1991-2008. Every last one of them ran a faster 40 than Moreno.

In chronological order, the list includes Vaughn Dunbar (4.48), Garrison Hearst (4.40), Robert Smith (4.48), Marshall Faulk (4.40), Greg Hill (4.44), Napoleon Kaufman (4.45), Tim Biakabutuka (4.45), Warrick Dunn (4.46), John Avery (4.39), Thomas Jones (4.48), Michael Bennett (4.38), Reggie Bush (4.41), DeAngelo Williams (4.50), Felix Jones (4.45) and Chris Johnson (4.26).

One has to go all the way back to the 17th selection of the 1990 draft to find a first-round back who was lighter and slower than Moreno. His name was Emmitt Smith, who, at 5-9 and 200, managed to do rather well for himself with his 4.55 speed.

Joseph Addai (5-11, 214) and Cadillac Williams (5-11, 217) are backs of recent vintage with comparable size and style to Moreno. But Addai ran 4.40 and Williams clocked 4.45.

"(Moreno) runs hard, he's patient behind his blockers and he's explosive," another AFC scout said. "But do I think he will be all-pro? No. He doesn't have great speed or great size."

Moreno finished No. 1 in a Journal Sentinel survey of 15 personnel men with a national orientation. Each was asked to rate the top five backs, with a first-place vote worth five points, a second worth four and so on.

In a close vote, Moreno edged Wells, 67-64, although each player had seven first-place votes. The other first went to Connecticut's Donald Brown, who totaled 37 points.

Following, in order, were: Pittsburgh's LeSean McCoy, 32; Iowa's Shonn Greene, 19; North Carolina State's Andre Brown, four; and Alabama's Glen Coffee, two.

The top five vote-getters all are underclassmen, a trend that is becoming stronger. All seven backs taken in the first round in the last two drafts were underclassmen as well.

Running backs know better than anyone else that they only have so many hits in them. Since the NFL first welcomed large numbers of juniors in 1990, 31 of the 63 (49.2%) first-round backs have been underclassmen.

Wells was called "kind of a drama queen" by one personnel man who grew tired of watching him come on and off the field because of nagging injury. He didn't miss any games until last season, when a toe injury in the opener knocked him out of the next three games.

Without Wells, the Buckeyes were annihilated by Southern California, 35-3.

"I think that really dinged him in the minds of many," one AFC personnel man said. "But the people at Ohio State that I talk to seem to think it was pretty legitimate. They liked him."

Given Wells' 4.45 speed and exceptional athletic ability, there is a lot to like.

Because of his size-speed ratio, some of the better comparables to Wells would be Ronnie Brown (6-0, 233, 4.44), Deuce McAllister (6-1, 221, 4.42) and Jamal Lewis (5-11 1/2, 231, 4.45), and to a lesser extent Jackson (6-1 1/2, 232, 4.59) and Eddie George (6-2 1/2, 230, 4.55).

All five of those players, however, were known for hard if not punishing running. Wells, who galls some scouts by running out of bounds, isn't.

"You've got to learn to play 100% but not be 100%," George told the Cleveland Plain Dealer in 2007 when Wells was nursing various bumps and bruises. "As the running back, the bell-ringer for the team, you've got to go out there and play, and play tough."

George, a former Buckeye, endured 2,992 touches without missing a game in his first eight NFL seasons.

It would seem Wells has a way to go in that department.
 
I'll go on record by saying that if he goes to a team like the Eagles that will utilize his receiving abilities and he stays healthy, he will make multiple All Pro teams. He's that unique of a talent IMO. The first comparison I thought of when I heard he ran a 4.6 is Emmitt Smith. He went to the ideal situation, stayed healthy and ran his way to the Hall of Fame.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
"(Moreno) runs hard, he's patient behind his blockers and he's explosive," another AFC scout said. "But do I think he will be all-pro? No. He doesn't have great speed or great size."
This.
Patient behind blockers AND explosiveBut no enough speed? Or Size??? (at 5 10 213?)One of the more stupid comments I have heard in a while, as it is contradicting itself. If you are explosive, not having some top end speed would hardly stop a back from making a pro bowl. Unless there is a sub 4.45 rule for the pro bowl I don't know about.
 
I'll go on record by saying that if he goes to a team like the Eagles that will utilize his receiving abilities and he stays healthy, he will make multiple All Pro teams. He's that unique of a talent IMO. The first comparison I thought of when I heard he ran a 4.6 is Emmitt Smith. He went to the ideal situation, stayed healthy and ran his way to the Hall of Fame.
:goodposting: I think landing with the Colts would be the same, he would be an outstanding addition to Indy's offense.Az would be another great landing spot.
 
I'll go on record by saying that if he goes to a team like the Eagles that will utilize his receiving abilities and he stays healthy, he will make multiple All Pro teams. He's that unique of a talent IMO. The first comparison I thought of when I heard he ran a 4.6 is Emmitt Smith. He went to the ideal situation, stayed healthy and ran his way to the Hall of Fame.
:goodposting: I think landing with the Colts would be the same, he would be an outstanding addition to Indy's offense.Az would be another great landing spot.
Agreed on all 3 teams being good spots for Moreno. He's probably the non-DT I'd want at pick #27 for the Colts. I'd still be surprised if he goes past pick #21.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I've always been and always will be a huge Walter Payton fan. He was an exemplary NFL talent and a solid-gold person.

Moreno may have physical talents similar to Payton, but I think it is a little early to say that he is the 2nd coming of Walter Payton. There are many tests of character and talent that he'll have to pass before he deserves to be mentioned in the same breath with Payton.

It will be fun to watch his career in the NFL, though. I agree he looks like a very promising talent/prospect.

 
"For the purposes of comparison, let's assign Moreno a weight of 213 and a 40 time of 4.54.

A total of 15 running backs weighing 213 pounds or less were drafted in the first round from 1991-2008. Every last one of them ran a faster 40 than Moreno." -

Anyone feel like taking the chance he's another Emmitt Smith?

""But do I think he will be all-pro? No. He doesn't have great speed or great size."

It bothers me that he doesn't have either.

 
blasphemy.......

Walter Payton = Walter Payton.......can't place any measure on this guy's will, heart, and work ethic, which were all a big part of making him great

Moreno has about 15,000 yds to gain before you can start talking about Walter Payton.....ludicrous statement

 
"(Moreno) runs hard, he's patient behind his blockers and he's explosive," another AFC scout said. "But do I think he will be all-pro? No. He doesn't have great speed or great size."
This.
I find it comical that after one (healthy) run in an event that has no direct correlation to NFL game performance he is considered too slow. It's nice to know that only 5 1/100's of a second would somehow mean he has "great speed". Way way way way way too much emphasis on 40 times.Being all pro has as much to do with team situation as it does talent in the NFL, as pointed out by Emmit Smith and others.
 
DeAngelo Williams

Michael Turner

Matt Forte

Adrian Peterson

MJD

Steve Slaton

These were the top 6 players in my league last year. Is there a player on that list that is has "elite" ability outside of All Day?

Wells and Moreno are both first round talents. Which means from a potential standpoint they are better coming into the league than Turner, Forte, Slaton, and MJD. I'd say they are pretty comparable to DeAngelo (Number one back last season). They are not close to All Day.

My point is that if Wells or Moreno get in the right situation, they can excel. I am licking my chops from a dynasty perspective. I'd love Green Bay to get a crack at either of these guys from a Packer fan perspective.

 
blasphemy.......

Walter Payton = Walter Payton.......can't place any measure on this guy's will, heart, and work ethic, which were all a big part of making him great

Moreno has about 15,000 yds to gain before you can start talking about Walter Payton.....ludicrous statement
I completely agree with what you said.I saw just about every single game Walter played in while with the Bears. This guy put everything he had into every play. No just when he would get the ball, but on every play. He took pride in all aspects of his position on offense. He was the ultimate football player.

 
"(Moreno) runs hard, he's patient behind his blockers and he's explosive," another AFC scout said. "But do I think he will be all-pro? No. He doesn't have great speed or great size."
This.
I find it comical that after one (healthy) run in an event that has no direct correlation to NFL game performance he is considered too slow. It's nice to know that only 5 1/100's of a second would somehow mean he has "great speed". Way way way way way too much emphasis on 40 times.
People were counting Moreno's speed as a negative long before the combine.
 
DeAngelo WilliamsMichael TurnerMatt ForteAdrian PetersonMJDSteve SlatonThese were the top 6 players in my league last year. Is there a player on that list that is has "elite" ability outside of All Day?
Well, as much as I think 40 times are overrated, every single one of those guys had a 40 time in the 4.4 range and most have a lot better size than Moreno as well.
 
blasphemy.......

Walter Payton = Walter Payton.......can't place any measure on this guy's will, heart, and work ethic, which were all a big part of making him great

Moreno has about 15,000 yds to gain before you can start talking about Walter Payton.....ludicrous statement
I completely agree with what you said.I saw just about every single game Walter played in while with the Bears. This guy put everything he had into every play. No just when he would get the ball, but on every play. He took pride in all aspects of his position on offense. He was the ultimate football player.
:shrug:
 
DeAngelo WilliamsMichael TurnerMatt ForteAdrian PetersonMJDSteve SlatonThese were the top 6 players in my league last year. Is there a player on that list that is has "elite" ability outside of All Day?
I know you weren't really looking for an answer, but yes there are two others on that list that have 'elite' talent.Michael Turner - who really only was a lower draft pick because he played against crappy competition in college, and scouts were wary he wouldn't be able to against top flight NFL competition.MJD - for all those that want to jump on me for being an MJD hater, the kid has mad skills. He merely is short, and scouts don't like short RBs. For that matter, the NFL doesn't like short RBs either. But it doesn't make his talent any less elite.And, it could be argued that DWill is an elite talent based off his college production.
 
blasphemy.......Walter Payton = Walter Payton.......can't place any measure on this guy's will, heart, and work ethic, which were all a big part of making him greatMoreno has about 15,000 yds to gain before you can start talking about Walter Payton.....ludicrous statement
I agree. What a completely ridiculous thing to say.
 
blasphemy.......Walter Payton = Walter Payton.......can't place any measure on this guy's will, heart, and work ethic, which were all a big part of making him greatMoreno has about 15,000 yds to gain before you can start talking about Walter Payton.....ludicrous statement
The stat that boggles the mind is that in his 13 year career, Walter only missed one game, in his rookie season. I don't even really count that as a miss since it was a coaches desicion and a veteran Walter would of got on the field. In addition to being an all-purpose back, he punished players and his body and never missed a game. I've seen it estimated that he was hit about 7,000 times, not including practice or preseason. Not only do I not see Moreno playing for 13 years and not missing time, but I don't think that any RB will ever be as durable as Walter. RIP Sweetness.
 
DeAngelo WilliamsMichael TurnerMatt ForteAdrian PetersonMJDSteve SlatonThese were the top 6 players in my league last year. Is there a player on that list that is has "elite" ability outside of All Day?
I know you weren't really looking for an answer, but yes there are two others on that list that have 'elite' talent.Michael Turner - who really only was a lower draft pick because he played against crappy competition in college, and scouts were wary he wouldn't be able to against top flight NFL competition.MJD - for all those that want to jump on me for being an MJD hater, the kid has mad skills. He merely is short, and scouts don't like short RBs. For that matter, the NFL doesn't like short RBs either. But it doesn't make his talent any less elite.And, it could be argued that DWill is an elite talent based off his college production.
Yeah, but none of those guys were considered sure-fire hits coming out of school. None were thought of as elite when they were drafted. DeAngelo was a 1st round pick but wasn't a high first rounder despite his production at the college level. You can look at it now and say these guys are elite, but going into the draft most teams didn't think so -- the same will be for a couple of RBs in this class probably.
 
switz said:
Sabertooth said:
DeAngelo Williams

Michael Turner

Matt Forte

Adrian Peterson

MJD

Steve Slaton

These were the top 6 players in my league last year. Is there a player on that list that is has "elite" ability outside of All Day?
I know you weren't really looking for an answer, but yes there are two others on that list that have 'elite' talent.Michael Turner - who really only was a lower draft pick because he played against crappy competition in college, and scouts were wary he wouldn't be able to against top flight NFL competition.

MJD - for all those that want to jump on me for being an MJD hater, the kid has mad skills. He merely is short, and scouts don't like short RBs. For that matter, the NFL doesn't like short RBs either. But it doesn't make his talent any less elite.

And, it could be argued that DWill is an elite talent based off his college production.
The apocalypse must be near :shrug:
 
The difference between the Walter Paytons and Jerry Rices compared to the rest of the league isn't talent and ability; lots of guys have what they had or more. It was their unbelievable work ethics that set them apart. A lot of elite athletes either inherently lack it, or were convinced (or convinced themselves) that they were so talented they didn't need it.

 
"For the purposes of comparison, let's assign Moreno a weight of 213 and a 40 time of 4.54.

A total of 15 running backs weighing 213 pounds or less were drafted in the first round from 1991-2008. Every last one of them ran a faster 40 than Moreno." -

Anyone feel like taking the chance he's another Emmitt Smith?

""But do I think he will be all-pro? No. He doesn't have great speed or great size."

It bothers me that he doesn't have either.
If it was all about size & speed, Lawrence Phillips would be in the Hall of Fame.
 
blasphemy.......

Walter Payton = Walter Payton.......can't place any measure on this guy's will, heart, and work ethic, which were all a big part of making him great

Moreno has about 15,000 yds to gain before you can start talking about Walter Payton.....ludicrous statement
I completely agree with what you said.I saw just about every single game Walter played in while with the Bears. This guy put everything he had into every play. No just when he would get the ball, but on every play. He took pride in all aspects of his position on offense. He was the ultimate football player.
And no one has worked harder in the off-season. Payton gave 100%, 24/7, 12 months a year. He was just an awesome football player!
 
I like Moreno but he's no Payton. Also I'm guessing Payton would have scored higher than a 13 on the Wonderlic.

 
"For the purposes of comparison, let's assign Moreno a weight of 213 and a 40 time of 4.54.

A total of 15 running backs weighing 213 pounds or less were drafted in the first round from 1991-2008. Every last one of them ran a faster 40 than Moreno." -

Anyone feel like taking the chance he's another Emmitt Smith?

""But do I think he will be all-pro? No. He doesn't have great speed or great size."

It bothers me that he doesn't have either.
If it was all about size & speed, Lawrence Phillips would be in the Hall of Fame.
Bad analogy, sorry. Has anyone also seen how thin he is in the waist? That can't be good for power.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top