the hairy scotsman
Footballguy
Sorry, Scorpion. I think Mr. Starling has this one nailed. 
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LATERAL to Williams -- TD Pass for Culpepper ? (1 Viewer)
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AhrnCityPahnder
Yinz-o-riffic
so Right now I see Moss's stats as 10/151. Does anyone know if this includes the 44 yards (and reception) of the play in question?
Waverunner
Footballguy
This is exactly how the NFL is scoring this play and they did creit Culpepper with the whole 59 yds of passing and the TD.The line that others are showing to refute this is just in the scoring summary if you dig deeper in the stats you see the NFL scored 44 yds for Moss and 1 rec, 15yds a Rec TD and 0 rec for Williams and the whole 59yds and a passing TD for CPep. So for me this has no more debate since I use the NFL.com as my official stat source ( I score by hand). As far as the guy that rewards bonus for TD's over 30yds then CPep is the only one that gets that bonus.This is the correct way to score this:Culpepper: 59 yard TD passMoss: 1 Reception 44 yards recievingM. Williams: 0 Receptions 15 yard recieving TDScore and award bonus points accordingly.
Hunterbeer
Footballguy
Moss' lateral is nothing like a fumble. It is an intentional play for one, whereas a fumble is not. It is just like when teams run the option: The pitch usually, but not always, comes before the QB crosses the line. Do you call those pitches fumbles? No. Again, the QB sometimes does cross the line of scrimmage and run some before making the pitch. That is not a fumble either. I do not know if DC should get a TD pass, but that is far more logical than comparing a lateral to a fumble on this play.
I'm not saying a fumble and a pitch are the same but who are we to say that Moss's lateral wasn't a fumble. What's the difference if it was or wasn't. The ball still changed hands, DC didn't complete a pass to Moe so how can they credit a TD pass to him. All I'm saying is that last weeks McMichael TD and this weeks have alot in common and should be scored the same. We don't know that it wasn't a pitch instead of a fumble.
Were all the above questions rhetorical?
TheFanatic
Footballguy
This is what bugs me. How can it be ruled a pass play to Moe Williams and still give the hards to Moss? I'm playing against Moss and Culp this week. So if it's a pass play to Williams, why is Moss getting yardage too? Either Culp doesn't get credit for a passing TD and Moss gets the yards or Culp gets the credit for the play and Moss does not get the yards.It seems like I'm getting doubled up on points on this play
All I have to say, I hope to God that Johnny Morton and the KC Defense make this a moot point by going off for 30 between them....So what you are saying here is that in order for a fumble to be a fumble it must touch the ground. Very interesting but I believe is very wrong. So if a player gets hit and the ball pops loose in the air, it is not a fumble unless it touches the ground?
WRONG Please let me know the correct ruling on such a play.
Topes
Footballguy
1: 1-10-MIN23 (9:43) D. Culpepper pass to R. Moss to MIN 37 for 14 yards (A. Wilson).2: 1-10-MIN37 (9:02) D. Culpepper pass to R. Moss to MIN 43 for 6 yards (A. Wilson).
3: 1-10-DEN48 (9:14) D. Culpepper pass to R. Moss to DEN 45 for 3 yards (J. Sykes).
4: 2-7-MIN22 (1:17) (Shotgun) D. Culpepper pass to R. Moss to MIN 32 for 10 yards (L. Walls).
5: 3-24-MIN41
12) (Shotgun) D. Culpepper pass to R. Moss to DEN 15 for 44 yards. Lateral to M. Williams for 15 yards, TOUCHDOWN. Play Challenged by Review Assistant and Upheld.6: 3-8-MIN31 (13:23) (Shotgun) D. Culpepper pass to R. Moss to DEN 49 for 20 yards (K. Herndon).
7: 2-10-DEN38 (11:55) D. Culpepper pass to R. Moss to DEN 35 for 3 yards (L. Walls).
8: 1-10-MIN25 (5:13) D. Culpepper pass to R. Moss to MIN 33 for 8 yards (K. Herndon).
9: 2-22-MIN31 (4:31) D. Culpepper pass to R. Moss pushed ob at MIN 35 for 4 yards (A. Wilson).
10: 1-10-MIN22 (6:39) D. Culpepper pass to R. Moss to DEN 39 for 39 yards (L. Walls).
It includes the 44 yarder.
That Moss caught a ball for 44 yards is not much in dispute, either.
Topes
Footballguy
I think you have a point there.The Troy Hambrick ball did not touch the ground.I think the difference may have been that that there was a change of possession on the play. If Hambrick's ball had been punched out by the defender backward (never touching the ground), and Aveion Cason had snagged it and advanced, would it have been considered a lateral or a fumble recovery?Where's Maurille?So what you are saying here is that in order for a fumble to be a fumble it must touch the ground. Very interesting but I believe is very wrong. So if a player gets hit and the ball pops loose in the air, it is not a fumble unless it touches the ground?
F
FightingWombat
Guest
'Fumble' is somewhat of a judgement call. Did the player intend to lateral the ball or did a defensive player force the fumble. Take this example from the Redskins at the Bills this weekend (from NFL.com):
On this play, Gash was running with the ball and Arrington punched it out from behind. The ball sailed through the air right to Shaw. Shaw caught it and stepped out of bounds 10 yards ahead of where Gash was. Obviously, had this been ruled a lateral it would have been illegal (forward). If you saw the game (or replay), it is obvious the ball was punched out (forced).On the Moss play, he clearly threw it to Williams. Moss was being tackled but no Denver player hit the ball or Moss in a way to cause a fumble. Furthermore, a fumble cannot be advanced by another offensive player in the last 2 minutes of a half. (or is it 4 minutes? )
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GridironGoliath
Footballguy
We normally see one or two of these situations a year, but this season has been amazing. My league has learned to addapt to this type of thing. We score every player by the same rules, no matter what position they play. We also base there scores off of the NFL Gamebooks (on NFL.COM). Any official scoring corrections override the gamebooks. As of now, this play would break down as follows:Culpepper: 59 yd passing TD = 5 pts (4pts for a passing TD, and 1pt distance bonus for it being over 50yds)Moss: 44 yds reception = 1 pt (for yards, we give 1 pt per 25 yds receiving)Williams: 15 yd TD = 6 pts (6pts for a rushing or receiving TD)If there is a scoring change it would probably be to removethe TD pass from Culpepper, making it a 44 yard pass from Culppepper and a 15 yard lateral from Moss.
GridironGoliath
Footballguy
We normally see one or two of these situations a year, but this season has been amazing. My league has learned to addapt to this type of thing. We score every player by the same rules, no matter what position they play. We also base there scores off of the NFL Gamebooks (on NFL.COM). Any official scoring corrections override the gamebooks. As of now, this play would break down as follows:Culpepper: 59 yd passing TD = 5 pts (4pts for a passing TD, and 1pt distance bonus for it being over 50yds)Moss: 44 yds reception = 1 pt (for yards, we give 1 pt per 25 yds receiving)Williams: 15 yd TD = 6 pts (6pts for a rushing or receiving TD)If there is a scoring change it would probably be to removethe TD pass from Culpepper, making it a 44 yard pass from Culppepper and a 15 yard lateral from Moss.
GridironGoliath
Footballguy
We normally see one or two of these situations a year, but this season has been amazing. My league has learned to addapt to this type of thing. We score every player by the same rules, no matter what position they play. We also base there scores off of the NFL Gamebooks (on NFL.COM). Any official scoring corrections override the gamebooks. As of now, this play would break down as follows:Culpepper: 59 yd passing TD = 5 pts (4pts for a passing TD, and 1pt distance bonus for it being over 50yds)Moss: 44 yds reception = 1 pt (for yards, we give 1 pt per 25 yds receiving)Williams: 15 yd TD = 6 pts (6pts for a rushing or receiving TD)If there is a scoring change it would probably be to removethe TD pass from Culpepper, making it a 44 yard pass from Culppepper and a 15 yard lateral from Moss.
I remember a couple of years ago in a Rams game, Warner threw a 20 yard out to Hakim who then lateraled it to Canidate coming out of the backfield for a 50 something yard td. It was scored as a 20 yard completion for warner to Hakim and a 35 yard td run by Canidate. The Vikings play is no different in my eyes. Culpepper did not throw a td. Moe ran a lateral. By definition a lateral is a run. It can not be a pass. Sportsline missed the boat on this one.
Significant Shrinkage
Footballguy
I agree. Any chance Sportsline will change this??
The bottom line, right or wrong, is how NFL.com scores it. The rest will follow.unfortunately this is now not the case after last weeks fiasco and different rulings from different websites on the Mcardell td.......THE nfl Officially ruled that a MISCELANEOUS td.....the NFL IS NOT in the business of scoring fantasy football leagues and if last week showed me anything it is that the nfl CAN rule inconsistently.... remember Mccardell recovered a fumble RETURNED it for a td..... and leagues were left to sort it out because the nfl called it miscelaneous......now this week we are supposed to follow the nfl,s nonsensical award for a td FROM a player he never passed the ball to and TO a player who never caught it?????????I really do not know how well the fantasy football world is interconnected ( probably not very) but it would be nice if we could get a ruling from some official body in these types of situations geared SPECIFFICALLY for ff . Remember we DO NOT play profesional football we play fantasy football .. they ARE NOT the same thing therefore to say that the nfl is the end all for our scoring is just a little out of whack imho.....after last weeks fiasco I thought we had dodged a bullet of controversy because I had the TB defense and as comish decided no matter how we ruled it I would take no points for the td....we voted and ruled that when a player starts on offense he is on offense till the play is over..... somebody speciffically asked in the discussion about latterals .... I had no idea that the nfl considers latterals to be forward passes.... I told our league that laterals would be considered handoffs because in my view theres not a bit of difference between a toss sweep pitch and a lateral .....just the player delivering the ball and that a lateral would be scored as a rushing td...... now the NFL comes out with this nonsensical interpretation???????????????????????bottom line for our league is we were ready to overrule the league software last week if necessary and if it need be , will do so again this week because it defies logic that Culpepper threw a touchdown to ???? NO ONE....... and Williams caught a touchdown from????????????? NO ONE!!! yet he caught no passes ????????????????here is what happened in the play
. Culpepper pass to R. Moss to DEN 15 for 44 yards. Lateral to M. Williams for 15 yards, TOUCHDOWNCulpepper threw the ball to MOSS.... sheesh if anybody should get credit for a td pass ( AND THEY SHOULDNT) it would be moss ....... no way no how does williams get credit for a td pass from cpep .....bottom line the nfl isnt and shouldnt necessarily always be the be all and end all to FF..... they are about pro football not how should scoring in FF be handled.... and if these last 2 weeks have shown me anything....it is that they are inept at making decisions about FF abd we are like lemmings if we blindly accept their scoring in all instances....they ( as far as I know) have never pretended to be a FF scoring service and I think its high time we stopped using them as such in these situations.
bryhamm
Footballguy
Sounds like the biggest issue with people is why would Culpepper get credit for the TD when he didn't throw the ball to Williams? Well, you could argue the same about a QB that throws a 10yd pass that the WR then runs another 60 yards for a TD. Would you argue that the QB should only get credit for 10 passing yards? No. Well, this is in essence no different. Culpepper should get credit for the entire play that was a pass. It doesn't matter what happened between Moss and Williams unless it is officially ruled a fumble.
Capt. Midnight
Footballguy
The official on the field ruled that Moss made a backward "PASS" - seems to me he should get a TD credit...(Moss owner)
Cocky Crow
Footballguy
I know CBSSportsline makes dumb rulings, but currently they are crediting Culpepper with 2 TDs, one for 47 and one for 15 (this is the Williams one)! And to top that, Williams is getting 15 receiving yards, and 1 receiving TD! This has to change.Commissioners just have to use common sense and logic, and overrule these bozo's running these leagues.
Significant Shrinkage
Footballguy
Very poor reasoning. Only ONE player touches the ball in your example. Who would EVER question if that QB should get the yards?In the example at hand, 1 player has possession then flips the ball to another player. How is the QB directly responsible for that TD pass (indirectly he is, of course). Moss is responsible, not Pepper.
For those discussing a Fumble vs. Backward Pass, here's the definition of each in the Rulebook:
The only real difference seems to be intent. Under Rule 8, Section 4 they are treated nearly identically. A backward pass may be recovered by either team before or after it hits the ground [8-4-1(a) and (b)]; a fumble may be recovered by either team before or after it hits the ground [8-4-2(a) and (b)]. A backward pass therefore remains a backward pass even after it hits the ground. The ball hitting the ground does only one thing, it allows either team to block the opposition in a personal attempt to recover the ball. (Rule 8, section 4, Supplemental note)Unfortunately, the Official Rules of the NFL (Game Action Edition) do not discuss how stats are to be kept.
kupcho1
Footballguy
All well and good unless the commissioner (me) happens to have Moss and is currently losing the the Culpepper owner by 9 (with Mort Anderson still to go). No way I can make a unilateral (no pun intended) change.Fortunately, I have been consistently accepting the MFL scoring changes all year, so in the event MFL makes a change, I can accept it.Hopefully Mort kicks 4 FGs and the whole thing becomes moot.
There are two abstract plays in football from scrimmage: run and pass.Run is the act of running the ball foward passed the line of scrimage.Pass is the act of throwing the ball passed the line of scrimage.At no point during mid play, can these two types of plays swap.So as far as I'm concerned, Culp threw the ball thus a passing play. Now until the ball is downed, this is a pass from the QB. Moss catches it then reliquishes possession to moe. If Moss reliquesh control in a manner of like a fumble, then he still gets credit for those yards. But instead, the ball is lateralled to Moe, thus still being a passing play cause you cant just start "running" the ball 40 yards down field. When Moe scores, he should get credit for the yards he acquired and a td. Moss should get credit for a catch andthe yards he acquired. Culp was the one who passed the ball, so he should get credit for all the yards acquired and the td, since it was all one continuous play. Thats my 2 cents.
sartre
Footballguy
Interesting. Anarchy99 posted a hypothetical situation uncannily similar to this Culpepper-Williams play just two weeks ago:
Foresight?
Seems like there wasn't much agreement then either.
Foresight?
Seems like there wasn't much agreement then either.
Capt. Midnight
Footballguy
The official on the field ruled that Moss made a backward "PASS" - seems to me he should get a TD credit...(Moss owner)
here is an example of the play that has occured exactly like this in the past and how it was scored statistically. if you remember the 2001 eagles/giants game, collins completed a pass to tiki who then pitched to ron dixon who almost scored a TD on the final play of the game. here is the link to the official NFL gamebook for that game:
http://scores.nfl.com/scores/2001/gamebook...mebook_1230.htm
you'll see that dixon got credit for the 60 yds as receiving yards (despite recording 0 receptions) and collins got credit for those extra 60yds as passing yards as well. tiki got credit for his 14yd catch before the lateral. had dixon reached paydirt, collins would have received credit for the TD as well. maybe it makes more sense that laterals are scored as rushing yards or whatever, but at least there is precedent set by the NFL how to score this statistically.
http://scores.nfl.com/scores/2001/gamebook...mebook_1230.htm
you'll see that dixon got credit for the 60 yds as receiving yards (despite recording 0 receptions) and collins got credit for those extra 60yds as passing yards as well. tiki got credit for his 14yd catch before the lateral. had dixon reached paydirt, collins would have received credit for the TD as well. maybe it makes more sense that laterals are scored as rushing yards or whatever, but at least there is precedent set by the NFL how to score this statistically.
Ah the Keenan play.To me, the offense is the team at the beginning of the play, as the defense is the team on defense at the begining of the play. Now on a turnover, the Defense stays the defense (as far as FF is concerned.) If we accept the NFL's ruling of how on a turnover the D becomes the O, the O becomes the D, then no D in FF would ever get points, cause they would be the Offense. So as far as I'm concerned Keenan was always on Offense, he then recovered a fumble and ran it back, Keenan gets the TD, and a fumble recovery. Another interpretation is also in FF, a D included all players not on Offense (hence players that we dont draft) so even if you want to call it a defensive TD, keenan is a player that was draftable. Yet I tend to stay with my first interpretation.The way this is different from the culp/moss/moe play outside of obviously the circumstances, is the keenan play was not continuous. The change of possesion nulls brad johnson's pass from still counting. If Moss fumbled the ball and Moe recovered for a TD, then its isnt a continuous play anymore and I would only give Moe the TD not Culp.Again, my 2 cents.
With that absurd logic, shouldnt the qb get credit for a pass td on a running play cause a toss play is a "backwards pass." The term pass is a misnomer. A pass needs to be forward, going across the line of scrimage. Otherwise this "backwards pass" is a lateral and your arguement holds no water... not even a drop.
Deuce'sWild
Footballguy
will the NFL release a official ruling on the play, or should we as commissioners take action ourselves?
Deuce'sWild
Footballguy
No, but that brings up a good point. Any toss play is a backward lateral and thus a run. The pass play was over when Moss lateralled the ball to Moe, it then became a "toss" to Moe, who ran it in.
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kupcho1
Footballguy
This is nonsense.How would you classify a flea-flicker where - the QB hands off to the RB, - who then pitches it back to the QB, - who then completes a pass to a WR for a TD?Or- the QB hands off to a WR on an end around,- and the WR completes a TD pass to another WR?Clearly these two plays violate your "no mixing" theory. Culpepper to Moss to Williams may indeed stand as a TD pass for Culpepper, but your "point" has no bearing whatsoever.
Waverunner
Footballguy
This is crazy thinking if. Since every single thing that is scored in fantasy football is based solely on what happens in the NFl if we start making rulings based on anything but the NFL then we have lost the essence and core of the game. If this were a Canadian Fantasy football game we wouldn't use NFL scoring rules we would use CFL rules. Unless you have specifically addressed this situation in your rules then you should always and I mean always fall back to the rulling by the NFL and when they are being as clear as they are in the scoring of this play then their should be no dispute. If you allow the commisioner to make rulings outside of the rules of the NFL when they are not specifically in the Fantasy League's rulebook then you are opening your whole league up to the commisioners biases.Use the NFL rulling and move onThe bottom line, right or wrong, is how NFL.com scores it. The rest will follow.unfortunately this is now not the case after last weeks fiasco and different rulings from different websites on the Mcardell td.......THE nfl Officially ruled that a MISCELANEOUS td.....the NFL IS NOT in the business of scoring fantasy football leagues and if last week showed me anything it is that the nfl CAN rule inconsistently.... remember Mccardell recovered a fumble RETURNED it for a td..... and leagues were left to sort it out because the nfl called it miscelaneous......now this week we are supposed to follow the nfl,s nonsensical award for a td FROM a player he never passed the ball to and TO a player who never caught it?????????I really do not know how well the fantasy football world is interconnected ( probably not very) but it would be nice if we could get a ruling from some official body in these types of situations geared SPECIFFICALLY for ff . Remember we DO NOT play profesional football we play fantasy football .. they ARE NOT the same thing therefore to say that the nfl is the end all for our scoring is just a little out of whack imho.....after last weeks fiasco I thought we had dodged a bullet of controversy because I had the TB defense and as comish decided no matter how we ruled it I would take no points for the td....we voted and ruled that when a player starts on offense he is on offense till the play is over..... somebody speciffically asked in the discussion about latterals .... I had no idea that the nfl considers latterals to be forward passes.... I told our league that laterals would be considered handoffs because in my view theres not a bit of difference between a toss sweep pitch and a lateral .....just the player delivering the ball and that a lateral would be scored as a rushing td...... now the NFL comes out with this nonsensical interpretation???????????????????????bottom line for our league is we were ready to overrule the league software last week if necessary and if it need be , will do so again this week because it defies logic that Culpepper threw a touchdown to ???? NO ONE....... and Williams caught a touchdown from????????????? NO ONE!!! yet he caught no passes ????????????????here is what happened in the play
You're so wrong.A play can be mixed until it the play crosses the line of scrimmage, which was my key point in classifying pass and run. If a player runs passed the line of scrimage, and laterals it back to the qb who is behind the line of scrimmage, the qb cannot pass the ball legally. My point is the continuity of the play. The becomes classified once the ball is passed the line of scrimmage, and in this instance its a pass play. I really fail to see your point. If a WR throws a td, so the WR gets the credit for the pass. Whats your point? Did you ignore the last phrase of both statments you quoted me on? Or should I just take it you didnt understand by mid-play, that the ball has already crossed the line of scrimage?
Cocky Crow
Footballguy
No it's not! The official ruling (currently) is:"Moe Williams, 59 Yd pass play from Daunte Culpepper"CBS is stating a 15 yard TD reception!
Rucking is a term from rugby. If you are down and holding the ball an opponent can try to kick or "claw" it out with his spikes. That would be rucking.As far as someones comment that this "controversy" will be interesting, let me assure you that nothing could be farther from the truth. The official scoring in the gamebook rules the play as a touchdown by pass (play) from Culpepper. The rest of this whining, moaning and opining is no where near as interesting as my first paragraph.
Fanball is scoring it thusly because their system is too overly engineered to allow them to score it as officially reported.Fanball is scoring it as a 15 rushing TD for Moe, which is correct. NFL.COM will change that box score I guarantee it. No way that is a passing TD for Culp.This is the correct way to score this:Culpepper: 59 yard TD passMoss: 1 Reception 44 yards recievingM. Williams: 0 Receptions 15 yard recieving TDScore and award bonus points accordingly.
Not sure if it was mentioned yet, I didn't read the entire thread, but does anyone know the ruling of the Hook and Ladder play by the Dolphins in the famous playoff game against the Chargers? I was curious if anybody can dig up an old box score and see what the ruling was. I apologize if this was already mentioned.
hipster814
Footballguy
to me this all seems fairly simple. it should be a passing TD from Culpepper to Williams. I think it should be Moss, 1 reception, 44 yards. Williams, 0 receptions, 15 yards, TD. Culpepper, 59 yard TD pass. the pass was what got the ball beyond the line of scrimmage, not a rush. that is in essence the definition of the 2. the attempt to move the ball towards the neutral zone. i think that whatever starts the play, pass or rush is what eventually has to end the play. if a RB rushes for say 10 yards, then laterals it to one of his own players, the first player gets the yardage up to the lateral, the next player from there on. similiarly, culpepper threw the ball, thus it is a pass, and can not become a run once it is a pass. so the pass continues until the team loses possession, or is tackled. you cant get rushing yards after a completion, you cant get receiving yards after a rush. thats my 2 cents
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