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LeCharles Bentley to miss 2007 season (1 Viewer)

wadegarrett

FFA Legend™
:wall: :wall: :wall:

Browns say Bentley will miss 2007 season

3:03 p.m.

Brown center LeCharles Bentley, whose lifelong dream was to play for the Browns, will most likely miss the 2007 season and Browns general manager Phil Savage indicated there’s a chance Bentley’s career might be over.

Savage said during a press conference on Tuesday that Bentley will probably need another surgery on his torn left patella tendon and that if he does, he will miss the 2007 season. He said Bentley is rehabbing in Arizona and will know by May or June if he needs the surgery.

He said the Browns will carry Bentley on the roster through the 2007 season, regardless.

“I think we certainly owe LeCharles the opportunty to see where he’s going to be,” said Savage. “This time next year I think we’ll have a much clearer picture in terms of is he really a legitimate piece of the puzzle here or has the injury been so devastating that he may never play again.

“I think that’s something we’ll know clearly this time a year from now.”

Bentley, signed to a 6-year, $36 million free agent contract, suffered the torn patella tendon on the first contact drill of the 2006 training camp and underwent surgery soon after.

Savage said the Browns are proceeding as though Bentley will not play in 2007, saying it will be a “bonus” if he does.

Bentley, from St. Ignatius and Ohio State, said recently that he definitely will play again. Following his initial surgery, he suffered a life-threatening staph infection in the knee that had to be surgically removed. The staph infection may have caused the current damage that will probably need to be repaired.
Link

 
Did Phil Savage send antrhax to the Pope?

Has anyone checked if the stadium has a hidden design of a pentagram in it?

There HAS to be a supernatural explanation to all this.

 
That pretty much sucks. You gotta feel bad for everyone involved on this one. The Browns got a great player at a position of serious need. Bentley got to play for his childhood hometown team. The fans got a player that really wanted to play for their team. And to potentially have his career ended on the first snap of the first practice on the first day is just unbelievable.

 
No sympathy for the Browns but I really feel bad for Bentley. That is a tough break.
Well, yes and no. I mean I don't wish injuries on anybody, and certainly not career-ending ones. That said, the man will have collected something like $18 million for essentially doing rehab. If his career is over, he will emerge wealthy, well-rehabbed, and in better health shape for the long term than most NFL O-linemen. Perhaps it's a blessing in disguise for him and his family.
 
Maybe when the browns draft AD, like some mocks have them doing, he'll be able to play o-line for them
You're right. They should definitely draft a center at the #3/4 spot.
my point is why waste a top pick and spend all that money on a rb when your o-line sucks? If the bucs do get the #3 pick and take thomas the browns should trade to one of the many teams who would kill for a chance to get calvin johnson
 
Maybe when the browns draft AD, like some mocks have them doing, he'll be able to play o-line for them
You're right. They should definitely draft a center at the #3/4 spot.
my point is why waste a top pick and spend all that money on a rb when your o-line sucks? If the bucs do get the #3 pick and take thomas the browns should trade to one of the many teams who would kill for a chance to get calvin johnson
Because there's more than one round in a draft and there's money to spend in free agency? :shrug:
 
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Ever since the Browns started as an expansion team they have been cursed. :lmao: Anyone have the list of their first round picks :lmao:
Tim CouchCourtney BrownGerard WarrenWilliam GreenJeff FaineKellen WinslowBraylon EdwardsKamerion Wimbley
That's the Browns curse right there. Poor drafting.Bentley seems like the type of player who ends up on the field at some point. I wouldn't write this guy off yet. The Browns made that mistake with a center already...and Faine played very well for the Saints last season.
 
Ever since the Browns started as an expansion team they have been cursed. :loco: Anyone have the list of their first round picks :lmao:
Tim CouchCourtney BrownGerard WarrenWilliam GreenJeff FaineKellen WinslowBraylon EdwardsKamerion Wimbley
That's the Browns curse right there. Poor drafting.Bentley seems like the type of player who ends up on the field at some point. I wouldn't write this guy off yet. The Browns made that mistake with a center already...and Faine played very well for the Saints last season.
Winslow, Edwards, and Wimbley are good players...
 
Ever since the Browns started as an expansion team they have been cursed. :loco: Anyone have the list of their first round picks :lmao:
Tim CouchCourtney BrownGerard WarrenWilliam GreenJeff FaineKellen WinslowBraylon EdwardsKamerion Wimbley
That's the Browns curse right there. Poor drafting.Bentley seems like the type of player who ends up on the field at some point. I wouldn't write this guy off yet. The Browns made that mistake with a center already...and Faine played very well for the Saints last season.
Winslow, Edwards, and Wimbley are good players...
But even 2 of those 3 have been significantly injured and that leaves just a rookie.
 
Ever since the Browns started as an expansion team they have been cursed. :own3d: Anyone have the list of their first round picks :own3d:
Tim CouchCourtney BrownGerard WarrenWilliam GreenJeff FaineKellen WinslowBraylon EdwardsKamerion Wimbley
That's the Browns curse right there. Poor drafting.Bentley seems like the type of player who ends up on the field at some point. I wouldn't write this guy off yet. The Browns made that mistake with a center already...and Faine played very well for the Saints last season.
Poor drafting was part of it but the league royally screwed the fans of the Cleveland Brows by allowing the POS Art Modell to move the team in the first place. He was selling out the stadium every game but wanted more because the idiot bought DollyLand and he couldn't find a way to make money and was losing money hand over fist. BTW Dolly Parton acquired the park and is making money hand over fist. The league eventually caved to a merciless stream of complaints by cheated Browns fans and grudgenly awarded Cleveland an expansion team but they harbored bitter resentment of Browns fans who flooded league offices with telegrams and phone calls, e-mails, and snail mail. They hated Cleveland even after raking hundreds of millions of dollars from late owner Al Lerner for the price of the expansion franchise. The bitter owners decided they were not about to allow Cleveland to sign free agents like Jax and Carolina so the locked up all decent free agents before Cleveland came into the league but that wasn't enough.Then the owners didn't allow Cleveland to contact head coaching candidates till their teams had been eliminated from post season play. The rule at the time and now states that teams can interview head coaching candidates but not assistants but at the time the owners ganged up to make sure Cleveland would not have a competative team and put in a rule to punish the Browns in a mean spirited way. Then the owners cried because Caronlina and Jacksonville won immediately so they took away the extra first round draft pick from Cleveland that was provided to both Jacksonville and Carolina. The owners then went over the top when Cleveland was nearing its first training camp as Peter Warrick was contemplating coming out in the expansion draft. The terrified and loathesome cowardly owners of the league got together and changed league rules retroactively to take away Cleveland's top pick in the expansion draft and changed the expansion draft into a lottery. Warrick didn't declare for the expansion draft, nor did he turn out to be a great player but it proved what the POS league owners would stoop to in order to royally screw over the fans of the Browns. But the coupe de graux came when an NFL official threw a weighted bean bag flag into the eye of ORT Orlando Brown blinding him in that eye and sending him to IR. The league not only did not give the Browns any compensation in the draft but forced the Browns had to eat Orlando Brown's high free agent contract. Orlando Brown never played another down for the Browns. Cleveland sells out every game but without any hope the apathetic fans are so beaten down that they don't even care about winning the Super Bowl, they don't want to make the time investment of building the team to win the Super Bowl but instead want the flashy names who are not good building blocks for assembling a Super Bowl contending team. For example.Adrian Peterson would be probably the dumbest pick that the Browns could make for assembling a Super Bowl team. Even if Cleveland's offensive line was solid, its not, he is a poor fit for a power blocking team and fits much bette in a slide zone blocking scheme. QB is the position that Cleveland should target Frye has shown he is the long term answer at QB, but drafting a QB is a long term investment and the rank and file fans are not prepared to wait but they should. Cleveland should take a QB and sit him for as long as they can next season and devote free agency and the draft to building the O-line. Next year draft they should be in draft position to land a top flight RB possibly McFadden to pair with a legitimate franchise QB, a solid, O-Line, coupled with Braylon Edwards and Kellen Winslow to give the Browns a legitimate Super Bowl contending offense. They currently are ranked in the middle of the pack on defense but have finished dead last in scoring two years ago and second from the bottom last year. The biggest problem in on offense, QB is a huge problem along with the offensive line, both should be the highest priorities this year. Then hope for the best on defense. The long term view of building the team should be taken instead of leaping at Adrian Peterson. If AP is the pick he's suck behind the lousy O-line with a mediocre QB in Charlie Frye. AP with no passing threat means the defense will stack the line and blow up running plays before he has a chance. Then with a sub par O-line he wouldn't have any room. The Browns should pass on AP and get their franchise QB this year then sit him as they build the line and then next year they should be in position to get a top flight RB. This year get the QB and start his development and build the O-line as they target RB for next year. A legit franchise QB, a rebuilt O-line, for this year then next a franchise RB, paired with Braylon/KWII the Browns would be on the fast track as a viable team to make a legitimate run for the Super Bowl. But if they take AP this year they'll win enough games to take them out of the meaty portion of next year's draft and that would set Cleveland back for years in making a legitimate Super Bowl run.
 
Interesting post Bracie Smathers. :goodposting: I didn't know half of that.

Of course, the organization has been run very poorly since Cleveland got their team back. The front office blundering is the top reason why the Browns have been pathetic since their return and the draft pick selections would be the first example given.

 
Interesting post Bracie Smathers. :goodposting: I didn't know half of that.Of course, the organization has been run very poorly since Cleveland got their team back. The front office blundering is the top reason why the Browns have been pathetic since their return and the draft pick selections would be the first example given.
The league had a few different ownershp groups vying to win the bid as the new owners of the Browns. Part of the rason Al Lerner won was because he signed on Carmen Policy and Dwight Clark. Not long after Policy and Clark signed on then the Lerner ownership group was awarded the team. And I made a mistake. The league did not directly prevent the Browns from interviewing head coaching candidates but they in effect did by delaying awarding Lerner ownership of the club until the 98 season was finished they prevented Policy from finding a head coach. I forgot that I actually bumped into the Broncos offensive coordinator at the time, Gary Kubiak on a plane from his interview with the Browns during the Super Bowl bye week, but that is another story for another day. In any event the Browns new ownershp group was at a SEVERE disadvantage in trying to land a head coaching candidate since they had virtually began from scratch, they had virtually NOTHING in place and had no time to find a head coach so it took some time.The league gave both Jacksonville and Carolina not to mention Houston years to assemble their ownership team and build up their front office, scouting departments, marketing, pro personnel, trainers, etc et el but the Browns ownership wasn't in place until late December of 98. Can you imagine an NFL franchise not even having a scouting department in place only months prior to their inaguaral draft? No wonder the early Browns drafts sucked. The scouting department consisted of Dwight Clark and he had no idea who his coach was going to be till late January. He had no clue what offense or defensive scheme was going to be run or what the coaches wanted. Also he simply wan't the best candidate to be GM let alone GM an expansion club with no scouting staff, etc. Forgot something else, when the league looked into the 49er salary cap moves during their SB victories they determined that Carmen Policy had circumvented the salary cap so they took it out on the Browns when we tried to get compensation for blinding Orlando Brown, they basically told Carmen to shut the hell up and they would do NOTHING for him because he cheated with the 49ers but in effect the league ended up screwing the fans of the Cleveland Browns who had done nothing illegal. We didn't force Art Modell to lose money at DollyLand amusement park. We were not responsible for the city of Cleveland providing tax money to build the Jake BEFORE we had enough to build a new stadium for the Browns. Modell didn't just move the team due to money he also was jealous and decided to take his anger out on the city of Cleveland and city hall when he moved but again the fans of the Browns got screwed. Basically the fans of the Cleveland Browns have had enough. Our uber stud blue chip TE breaks his leg his rookie season and go on IR. Next year he's in a motorcyle accident and hits IR two consecutive years. The insult was that the QB we passed on goes to our most hated rival and he wins the Super Bowl and then we see him stop a winshield of an oncomoing vehicle with his face but HE doesn't miss one game, its quite maddening. Karma can make some other team her beyatch. The fans of the Cleveland Browns have had ENOUGH! :homer:
 
Ever since the Browns started as an expansion team they have been cursed. :loco: Anyone have the list of their first round picks :lmao:
Tim CouchCourtney BrownGerard WarrenWilliam GreenJeff FaineKellen WinslowBraylon EdwardsKamerion Wimbley
That's the Browns curse right there. Poor drafting.Bentley seems like the type of player who ends up on the field at some point. I wouldn't write this guy off yet. The Browns made that mistake with a center already...and Faine played very well for the Saints last season.
Poor drafting was part of it but the league royally screwed the fans of the Cleveland Brows by allowing the POS Art Modell to move the team in the first place. He was selling out the stadium every game but wanted more because the idiot bought DollyLand and he couldn't find a way to make money and was losing money hand over fist. BTW Dolly Parton acquired the park and is making money hand over fist. The league eventually caved to a merciless stream of complaints by cheated Browns fans and grudgenly awarded Cleveland an expansion team but they harbored bitter resentment of Browns fans who flooded league offices with telegrams and phone calls, e-mails, and snail mail. They hated Cleveland even after raking hundreds of millions of dollars from late owner Al Lerner for the price of the expansion franchise. The bitter owners decided they were not about to allow Cleveland to sign free agents like Jax and Carolina so the locked up all decent free agents before Cleveland came into the league but that wasn't enough.Then the owners didn't allow Cleveland to contact head coaching candidates till their teams had been eliminated from post season play. The rule at the time and now states that teams can interview head coaching candidates but not assistants but at the time the owners ganged up to make sure Cleveland would not have a competative team and put in a rule to punish the Browns in a mean spirited way. Then the owners cried because Caronlina and Jacksonville won immediately so they took away the extra first round draft pick from Cleveland that was provided to both Jacksonville and Carolina. The owners then went over the top when Cleveland was nearing its first training camp as Peter Warrick was contemplating coming out in the expansion draft. The terrified and loathesome cowardly owners of the league got together and changed league rules retroactively to take away Cleveland's top pick in the expansion draft and changed the expansion draft into a lottery. Warrick didn't declare for the expansion draft, nor did he turn out to be a great player but it proved what the POS league owners would stoop to in order to royally screw over the fans of the Browns. But the coupe de graux came when an NFL official threw a weighted bean bag flag into the eye of ORT Orlando Brown blinding him in that eye and sending him to IR. The league not only did not give the Browns any compensation in the draft but forced the Browns had to eat Orlando Brown's high free agent contract. Orlando Brown never played another down for the Browns. Cleveland sells out every game but without any hope the apathetic fans are so beaten down that they don't even care about winning the Super Bowl, they don't want to make the time investment of building the team to win the Super Bowl but instead want the flashy names who are not good building blocks for assembling a Super Bowl contending team. For example.Adrian Peterson would be probably the dumbest pick that the Browns could make for assembling a Super Bowl team. Even if Cleveland's offensive line was solid, its not, he is a poor fit for a power blocking team and fits much bette in a slide zone blocking scheme. QB is the position that Cleveland should target Frye has shown he is the long term answer at QB, but drafting a QB is a long term investment and the rank and file fans are not prepared to wait but they should. Cleveland should take a QB and sit him for as long as they can next season and devote free agency and the draft to building the O-line. Next year draft they should be in draft position to land a top flight RB possibly McFadden to pair with a legitimate franchise QB, a solid, O-Line, coupled with Braylon Edwards and Kellen Winslow to give the Browns a legitimate Super Bowl contending offense. They currently are ranked in the middle of the pack on defense but have finished dead last in scoring two years ago and second from the bottom last year. The biggest problem in on offense, QB is a huge problem along with the offensive line, both should be the highest priorities this year. Then hope for the best on defense. The long term view of building the team should be taken instead of leaping at Adrian Peterson. If AP is the pick he's suck behind the lousy O-line with a mediocre QB in Charlie Frye. AP with no passing threat means the defense will stack the line and blow up running plays before he has a chance. Then with a sub par O-line he wouldn't have any room. The Browns should pass on AP and get their franchise QB this year then sit him as they build the line and then next year they should be in position to get a top flight RB. This year get the QB and start his development and build the O-line as they target RB for next year. A legit franchise QB, a rebuilt O-line, for this year then next a franchise RB, paired with Braylon/KWII the Browns would be on the fast track as a viable team to make a legitimate run for the Super Bowl. But if they take AP this year they'll win enough games to take them out of the meaty portion of next year's draft and that would set Cleveland back for years in making a legitimate Super Bowl run.
Good post Bracie!I agree with pretty much everything except the QB at #3 or #4 part. The Browns need work on both OL and DL. The coin toss is crucial between the Browns and TB! If the Browns get that #3 choice and the Raiders draft Russell and Detroit takes Thomas, then the Browns have a huge opportunity to trade down. Lots of teams would be interested in trading up for Quinn, Johnson or Peterson. A bunch of those teams may be worried that TB will take 1 of those guys at #4. I say they pick up a vet QB for the short term to compete with Frye, trade down as much as possible in the first round and work on building both lines.As far as Bentley goes, Browns fans knew that the odds of him playing next year were not good, but the news about another surgery is not promising. I agree on the AD pick being a poor fit for the Browns power running game! The funny thing is, while I expected the Fantasy Football guys projecting him to the Browns, there are a lot of Brown's fans projecting the same thing. It's not really a great comparison, given running styles, but picking AD will produce the same results as picking William Green did. They are both guys that wouldn't fit the current system. As far as Carlie Frye goes, the same argument can be made that he's stuck behind a poor OL and has no running game. I haven't given up on him yet, but he'll have to make huge strides in his decision making to keep the job. That's why bringing in a vet to compete with Frye is more important than a rookie that they'll try to protect for a year. The QB crop is just as juicy as the RB crop next year and drafting a rookie QB to hold a clipboard all year is only good if your sure the same Head Coach is coming back. Romeo needs improvement now to keep his job now, he can't afford the luxury of spending this year's top 5 pick for next year.One thing I'd like to add about the Orlando Brown thing is that not only were the Browns forced to eat Zeus' contract, but the league forced Carmen Policy to try and get Zeus to sign an agreement that he wouldn't sue the NFL. Up until that point, the blinded leader of an expansion OL was only talking about coming back and making the Browns a team to be proud of again. After he was approached by Carmen, he vowed that he would never play for us again and I think he picked Baltimore to piss the team brass off even more.
 
Adrian Peterson would be probably the dumbest pick that the Browns could make for assembling a Super Bowl team. Even if Cleveland's offensive line was solid, its not, he is a poor fit for a power blocking team and fits much bette in a slide zone blocking scheme. QB is the position that Cleveland should target Frye has shown he is the long term answer at QB, but drafting a QB is a long term investment and the rank and file fans are not prepared to wait but they should. Cleveland should take a QB and sit him for as long as they can next season and devote free agency and the draft to building the O-line. Next year draft they should be in draft position to land a top flight RB possibly McFadden to pair with a legitimate franchise QB, a solid, O-Line, coupled with Braylon Edwards and Kellen Winslow to give the Browns a legitimate Super Bowl contending offense. They currently are ranked in the middle of the pack on defense but have finished dead last in scoring two years ago and second from the bottom last year. The biggest problem in on offense, QB is a huge problem along with the offensive line, both should be the highest priorities this year. Then hope for the best on defense. The long term view of building the team should be taken instead of leaping at Adrian Peterson. If AP is the pick he's suck behind the lousy O-line with a mediocre QB in Charlie Frye. AP with no passing threat means the defense will stack the line and blow up running plays before he has a chance. Then with a sub par O-line he wouldn't have any room. The Browns should pass on AP and get their franchise QB this year then sit him as they build the line and then next year they should be in position to get a top flight RB. This year get the QB and start his development and build the O-line as they target RB for next year. A legit franchise QB, a rebuilt O-line, for this year then next a franchise RB, paired with Braylon/KWII the Browns would be on the fast track as a viable team to make a legitimate run for the Super Bowl. But if they take AP this year they'll win enough games to take them out of the meaty portion of next year's draft and that would set Cleveland back for years in making a legitimate Super Bowl run.
There seems to be contradicting thoughts here. On one hand you say that AP doesn't fit the blocking scheme but on the other hand you say the o-line (and by default the scheme) is terrible anyway. So if you're going to rebuild the line, why not rebuild it to suit an elite talent, rather than build a line and look for a talent later. In other words to say that you don't want AP because he doesn't fit well running behind the crappy line you already have in place doesn't make any sense. Remember how bad the lines were that Ladainian played behind his first few years in the league? Should they have bypassed him because they didn't have the proper line for him to run behind? And look at all the guys that did really well this year playing behind poor-to-average lines - Frank Gore, Steven Jackson, Tiki Barber, Willie Parker, Fred Taylor/MJD.Then take the case of Chester Taylor. Yes, he had a good year. But he only averaged an even 4.0 ypc. How much bigger would that number have been if it were an elite talent running behind McKinnie/Hutchinson/Birk than simply a pretty good one?I think if you have a chance to draft an elite talent at the skill positions (and I think AP is in that category) you take it and build the team around him.
 
Ever since the Browns started as an expansion team they have been cursed. :bye: Anyone have the list of their first round picks :bye:
Tim CouchCourtney BrownGerard WarrenWilliam GreenJeff FaineKellen WinslowBraylon EdwardsKamerion Wimbley
That's the Browns curse right there. Poor drafting.Bentley seems like the type of player who ends up on the field at some point. I wouldn't write this guy off yet. The Browns made that mistake with a center already...and Faine played very well for the Saints last season.
Poor drafting was part of it but the league royally screwed the fans of the Cleveland Brows by allowing the POS Art Modell to move the team in the first place. He was selling out the stadium every game but wanted more because the idiot bought DollyLand and he couldn't find a way to make money and was losing money hand over fist. BTW Dolly Parton acquired the park and is making money hand over fist. The league eventually caved to a merciless stream of complaints by cheated Browns fans and grudgenly awarded Cleveland an expansion team but they harbored bitter resentment of Browns fans who flooded league offices with telegrams and phone calls, e-mails, and snail mail. They hated Cleveland even after raking hundreds of millions of dollars from late owner Al Lerner for the price of the expansion franchise. The bitter owners decided they were not about to allow Cleveland to sign free agents like Jax and Carolina so the locked up all decent free agents before Cleveland came into the league but that wasn't enough.Then the owners didn't allow Cleveland to contact head coaching candidates till their teams had been eliminated from post season play. The rule at the time and now states that teams can interview head coaching candidates but not assistants but at the time the owners ganged up to make sure Cleveland would not have a competative team and put in a rule to punish the Browns in a mean spirited way. Then the owners cried because Caronlina and Jacksonville won immediately so they took away the extra first round draft pick from Cleveland that was provided to both Jacksonville and Carolina. The owners then went over the top when Cleveland was nearing its first training camp as Peter Warrick was contemplating coming out in the expansion draft. The terrified and loathesome cowardly owners of the league got together and changed league rules retroactively to take away Cleveland's top pick in the expansion draft and changed the expansion draft into a lottery. Warrick didn't declare for the expansion draft, nor did he turn out to be a great player but it proved what the POS league owners would stoop to in order to royally screw over the fans of the Browns. But the coupe de graux came when an NFL official threw a weighted bean bag flag into the eye of ORT Orlando Brown blinding him in that eye and sending him to IR. The league not only did not give the Browns any compensation in the draft but forced the Browns had to eat Orlando Brown's high free agent contract. Orlando Brown never played another down for the Browns. Cleveland sells out every game but without any hope the apathetic fans are so beaten down that they don't even care about winning the Super Bowl, they don't want to make the time investment of building the team to win the Super Bowl but instead want the flashy names who are not good building blocks for assembling a Super Bowl contending team. For example.Adrian Peterson would be probably the dumbest pick that the Browns could make for assembling a Super Bowl team. Even if Cleveland's offensive line was solid, its not, he is a poor fit for a power blocking team and fits much bette in a slide zone blocking scheme. QB is the position that Cleveland should target Frye has shown he is the long term answer at QB, but drafting a QB is a long term investment and the rank and file fans are not prepared to wait but they should. Cleveland should take a QB and sit him for as long as they can next season and devote free agency and the draft to building the O-line. Next year draft they should be in draft position to land a top flight RB possibly McFadden to pair with a legitimate franchise QB, a solid, O-Line, coupled with Braylon Edwards and Kellen Winslow to give the Browns a legitimate Super Bowl contending offense. They currently are ranked in the middle of the pack on defense but have finished dead last in scoring two years ago and second from the bottom last year. The biggest problem in on offense, QB is a huge problem along with the offensive line, both should be the highest priorities this year. Then hope for the best on defense. The long term view of building the team should be taken instead of leaping at Adrian Peterson. If AP is the pick he's suck behind the lousy O-line with a mediocre QB in Charlie Frye. AP with no passing threat means the defense will stack the line and blow up running plays before he has a chance. Then with a sub par O-line he wouldn't have any room. The Browns should pass on AP and get their franchise QB this year then sit him as they build the line and then next year they should be in position to get a top flight RB. This year get the QB and start his development and build the O-line as they target RB for next year. A legit franchise QB, a rebuilt O-line, for this year then next a franchise RB, paired with Braylon/KWII the Browns would be on the fast track as a viable team to make a legitimate run for the Super Bowl. But if they take AP this year they'll win enough games to take them out of the meaty portion of next year's draft and that would set Cleveland back for years in making a legitimate Super Bowl run.
Nominee for post of the week and quickly being added to my must read list. Great stuff...not sure I agree 100% but it was well written, well thought out, we need more of this.Edited to add: Anyone that can use the "Coupe de greax" in their post...seriously fun stuff to read. I have a voice in my head that clicked in during this...was kind of like when Elliott Gould is explaining why Vegas casinos cannot be knocked over in Ocean's 11 when he is sitting by the pool.
 
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And look at all the guys that did really well this year playing behind poor-to-average lines - Frank Gore, Steven Jackson, Tiki Barber, Willie Parker, Fred Taylor/MJD.
I'll give you the other 4 guys but with the Steelers you had 3 Pro Bowlers (Faneca, Hartings, and Marvel Smith) as well as two stand out guys on the right side (Kendall Simmons and Max Starks). I'd wager that this line is within the the Top 10 in the entire league.
 
And look at all the guys that did really well this year playing behind poor-to-average lines - Frank Gore, Steven Jackson, Tiki Barber, Willie Parker, Fred Taylor/MJD.
Gore: OL was terribly underrated heading into the 2006 season and they played very well as a unit, even better at run blocking than pass blocking, Larry Allen made a huge difference for them.Steven Jackson: Runs behind Orlando Pace and has one of the best passing games in front of him to make him go against 5,6 and never more then 7 in the box tops.Tiki Barber: Not a great OL for sure but they have rebuilt it quite a bit the past couple of seasons. Also has pretty good weapons at TE, WR, and QB around him.Willie Parker: Pitt has a terrific run blocking OL. Jacksonville: I can go along with this as their are no real standouts.You knew you were going to get called on this Andy.
 
And look at all the guys that did really well this year playing behind poor-to-average lines - Frank Gore, Steven Jackson, Tiki Barber, Willie Parker, Fred Taylor/MJD.
Gore: OL was terribly underrated heading into the 2006 season and they played very well as a unit, even better at run blocking than pass blocking, Larry Allen made a huge difference for them.Steven Jackson: Runs behind Orlando Pace and has one of the best passing games in front of him to make him go against 5,6 and never more then 7 in the box tops.

Tiki Barber: Not a great OL for sure but they have rebuilt it quite a bit the past couple of seasons. Also has pretty good weapons at TE, WR, and QB around him.

Willie Parker: Pitt has a terrific run blocking OL.

Jacksonville: I can go along with this as their are no real standouts.

You knew you were going to get called on this Andy.
I did say "poor-to-average." 49ers were average. Other than Pace, the Rams are average. The Giants are below average. I was wrong about Pittsburgh.The point is, I think it's better to take AP now and build a line for his talent than it is to move your line from poor to average and THEN look for an elite level back to run behind it.

 
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Great post Bracie, but...it sounds like a lot of whining. The Browns have never won anything. I would say it is mostly due to years of poor management and draft picks. I feel for you, but it really reminds me of the Cubs...and I am a Cubs fan. While I would love to blame the woes on anything but management, the truth is it is poor management and ownership. Like I said I bleed Cubbie blue, so I feel for ya.

 
Unbelievably bad luck for the Browns. As an Eagles fan, it strikes me how injuries and sometimes dumb luck play a role in your organization's success. The Eagles thought they had Bentley signed, sealed and delivered at the start of free agency last year only for Bentley to change his mind and "return home." Now two years later he's yet to suit up for the Brownies. That's a tough, tough break.

As to the tangential discussion about AP...at the end of the day, teams become great by drafting great players. PERIOD. We all like to pretend there's a magic formula to making a championship team but there really and truly is not...if Adrian Peterson grades out as the clear best talent at the 4 spot, the Browns would be doing themselves a disservice not to take him.

Look at the Chargers, when they took Tomlinson the Chargers line was thought of as among the worst in the league. Yet he had immediate success, in SPITE of his line, and over time they've built up the line to really showcase how special he can be. Browns fans need to accept that they're not going to be SB contenders in a year anyway, and they have more than one need position.

When you have a high first round pick, the ONLY unforgivable mistake a GM can make is to not select the best available player. Period. End of story. You don't draft for need in the top 5. By definition, if you're in the top 5, you have multiple needs that should allow you to select on overall talent.

 
:( :doh: :hey:

Following his initial surgery, he suffered a life-threatening staph infection in the knee that had to be surgically removed. The staph infection may have caused the current damage that will probably need to be repaired.
Exactly what ended Greg Lloyds career. :cry:
Braylon Edwards had the staph infection in his elbow. Winslow had one during his rehab.Seriously, what's up with Browns players and staph infections?

 
Unbelievably bad luck for the Browns. As an Eagles fan, it strikes me how injuries and sometimes dumb luck play a role in your organization's success. The Eagles thought they had Bentley signed, sealed and delivered at the start of free agency last year only for Bentley to change his mind and "return home." Now two years later he's yet to suit up for the Brownies. That's a tough, tough break.As to the tangential discussion about AP...at the end of the day, teams become great by drafting great players. PERIOD. We all like to pretend there's a magic formula to making a championship team but there really and truly is not...if Adrian Peterson grades out as the clear best talent at the 4 spot, the Browns would be doing themselves a disservice not to take him.Look at the Chargers, when they took Tomlinson the Chargers line was thought of as among the worst in the league. Yet he had immediate success, in SPITE of his line, and over time they've built up the line to really showcase how special he can be. Browns fans need to accept that they're not going to be SB contenders in a year anyway, and they have more than one need position.When you have a high first round pick, the ONLY unforgivable mistake a GM can make is to not select the best available player. Period. End of story. You don't draft for need in the top 5. By definition, if you're in the top 5, you have multiple needs that should allow you to select on overall talent.
As a Houston Texans fan I could not agree with you more. :(
 
:( :doh: :hey:

Following his initial surgery, he suffered a life-threatening staph infection in the knee that had to be surgically removed. The staph infection may have caused the current damage that will probably need to be repaired.
Exactly what ended Greg Lloyds career. :cry:
Braylon Edwards had the staph infection in his elbow. Winslow had one during his rehab.Seriously, what's up with Browns players and staph infections?
Browns address staph infection problem Written by: ¦ 2/21/2007

Source: www.news-herald.com

A coating in the form of a glaze to prevent staph infection will be applied later this week in the locker room and other areas players frequent. The training complex will have to be vacated during the procedure.

"We're doing everything we can to make sure that isn't a problem next year," Savage said.

Bentley suffered a staph infection, and safety Brian Russell was stricken with a staph infection twice last season

 
As to the tangential discussion about AP...at the end of the day, teams become great by drafting great players. PERIOD. We all like to pretend there's a magic formula to making a championship team but there really and truly is not...if Adrian Peterson grades out as the clear best talent at the 4 spot, the Browns would be doing themselves a disservice not to take him.Look at the Chargers, when they took Tomlinson the Chargers line was thought of as among the worst in the league. Yet he had immediate success, in SPITE of his line, and over time they've built up the line to really showcase how special he can be. Browns fans need to accept that they're not going to be SB contenders in a year anyway, and they have more than one need position.When you have a high first round pick, the ONLY unforgivable mistake a GM can make is to not select the best available player. Period. End of story. You don't draft for need in the top 5. By definition, if you're in the top 5, you have multiple needs that should allow you to select on overall talent.
:no:
 
chris1969

... I agree with pretty much everything except the QB at #3 or #4 part. The Browns need work on both OL and DL. The coin toss is crucial between the Browns and TB! If the Browns get that #3 choice and the Raiders draft Russell and Detroit takes Thomas, then the Browns have a huge opportunity to trade down. Lots of teams would be interested in trading up for Quinn, Johnson or Peterson. A bunch of those teams may be worried that TB will take 1 of those guys at #4. I say they pick up a vet QB for the short term to compete with Frye, trade down as much as possible in the first round and work on building both lines.
The only offensive lineman worthy of the top 3/4 slot is OLT Joe Thomas. We overspent for free agent OLT Bob Schafer last year, he's got a hefty signing bonus so the only way to get any ROI (Return On Investment) from him would be to move him to ORT and I'm not sure he's a road grader type of ORT to man the strong side and he cost too much to move inside and again, I do not believe he's a good fit for inside since I do not see him as a road grader. Then in looking at JT I have concerns, short wingspan gator arms means for him to seal the edge he was to be quicker than speed rushers where he has to move and set his feet and not many OLTs can do that and if you look at the amount of sacks given up by Joe Thomas, 8 1/5 in 34 games he didn't exactly shut out college DEs so I'd hate to place him an on island with Terrell Suggs/Joey Porter/Justin Smith just within our division. Bob Gallery had it all except the wingspan and if you look he doesn't have the quicks or reach to seal the edges. A total waste of a high pick and I would not risk the 3/4 on JT and no other offensive lineman rates that pick.D-Line. Branch is the only name that fits and it would be an awfully high pick for an NT. If Branch has versatility and smarts not to mention the demeanor and coachability to seamlessly flop from a 34 NT/DE to a 43 DT/DE then that is the only way he justifies that high selection. But for those seeking insta-impact from that high a pick for a rookie NT/DT/DE they have to be kidding themselves. The Pat/Romeo 34 defense is complicated so Allan would only see the field in certain packages until Romeo felt comfy with him. Romeo didn't start Braylon for nearly half his rookie season. Kamerion was playing from the get-go but his resonsibilities were limited and although we know he's a solid pass rusher he still is not a complete OLB/DE hybrid in the Pat scheme where his respsonsibilities grativitate to also dropping in coverage not to mention taking on and shedding blockers in run defense, both areas that he has to work on. But the DLMen in the Pat defense are the first line of defense, literally. They have to make intant correct reads so the next line of defense, the LBers are making their reads symaltaneously so if the DLMan makes an incorrect read or gets beat then the linebackers and any safety support blows up.

Branch is not as versatile as Richard Seymour since he's thirty pounds heavier and isn't as athletic/speedy. He'd be limted to obvious defensive packages, passing downs or short yardage/goal line where he doesn't need to read anything but merely reacts for his rookie season but he'd never be able to do the things that Seymour does, flop between 43/34 DT/DE and even drop in coverage. He would be an inside guy in any 43 packages and would be the NT in the 34 by default. I think he has the ability to move outside and play 34 DE but he'd never do the things that Richard Seymour does for the Pats so we are talking a very high pick for what would amount to an NT and that is a poor ROI for such a high draft pick.

QBs VS DLmen show an optimal sequential assembling of SB contending teams. Look at SB teams with highly drafted QBs, they did so a few years prior to their SB run. If they had highly drafted DLMen they typically drafted after thier QB was in place. I've done the homework and the only positions with any causal relationship with SB teams vis-a-vis high draft selections are QB and DL. One QB VS 3 or 4 starting DLmen wieghts value of QBs to highest importance. A QB needs time to develop but a DLman, Russell Maryland for example can be inserted into some defensive packages and get immediate but limited impact. Aikman taken three years prior to the first of Boys SB teams. Maryland was part of a heavy D-Line rotation. Troy was the lynchpin, Russell was a spoke in the D-Line wheel. QB takes longer before they make impact. I'll leave it there for now but I'm holding back on other points as to why a team should get their QB first and build the team from the quarterback position.

As far as Bentley goes, Browns fans knew that the odds of him playing next year were not good, but the news about another surgery is not promising. I agree on the AD pick being a poor fit for the Browns power running game! The funny thing is, while I expected the Fantasy Football guys projecting him to the Browns, there are a lot of Brown's fans projecting the same thing. It's not really a great comparison, given running styles, but picking AD will produce the same results as picking William Green did. They are both guys that wouldn't fit the current system.
AP is not a great fit for our blocking scheme but he's got skilz and I doubt that anyone doesn't think he can adapt. I see him leaning into his cuts and then see the POWER originating from his thighs where he puts his body at an angle and BAM POWER and expodes into his cuts but watch the tape and consentrate on how his legs/thighs independantly seem to anticipate the cut as he begins to lean in with his uppper body and how his lower body takes the hit and explodes. That style is picture perfect for a slide zone blocking scheme where Adrian could pick and chose his hole and make his power cut and explode out of it. But AP is nothing like William Green so I would not compare the two.

As far as Carlie Frye goes, the same argument can be made that he's stuck behind a poor OL and has no running game. I haven't given up on him yet, but he'll have to make huge strides in his decision making to keep the job. That's why bringing in a vet to compete with Frye is more important than a rookie that they'll try to protect for a year.
Charlie Frye has played in 23 games and has 18 starts under his belt, that is more than an adequate sample size to look at. Frye:

- third round draft selection, passed over by every NFL team two times, including the Cleveland Browns.

team produced 70 less offensive yards per game, RB's average per carry dropped a ful yard when he took over

- team finished dead last in scoring his first year

- Frye faced no competition for his starting job

- he added 23 lbs of musle

- Frye got KWII back off IR

- Frye got Braylon Edwards back off IR

- his QB passer rating went down from his rookie season

- his DPAR rating went down for two consecutive years

- his turnover streak carried over from his rookie season and is at 15 consecutive games of either throwing an interception or fumbling the ball away

- the team lost two more games with Frye starting 13 games

- the team finished second to last in the NFL for scoring

Frye continued making dumb rookie mistakes such as leading the league in tnterceptions thrown inside his own 20 yard line. The expectation is that a rookie would lead in that stat but each of last year's top rookies faired better than Frye.

AFC Leaders in Interceptions, In Own 20 (Thru games of Dec. 31, 2006)

Rank Player Team

1t Charlie Frye Cle 3

3t Vince Young Ten 2

7t Jay Cutler Den 1

7t Matt Leinart Ari 1

Another other dumb rookie error is working the ball all the way down the field to get inside the opponents twenty yard line and turning the ball over down there and Frye ranks second worst in the league.

AFC Leaders in Interceptions, In Opp 20 (Thru games of Dec. 31, 2006)

Rank Player Team

1 Ben Roethlisberger Pit 5

2t Charlie Frye Cle 3

9t Vince Young Ten 1

Neither Cutler or Lienart were listed so I'm assuming they didn't throw any interceptions inside the opponents twenty yard line.

Then look to see what sort of talent that Frye brings to the table and compare it to other starting QBs and the rookie prospects of last season.

Jay Cutler had the equivilent of 4 complete games last year, Charlie Frye had 13 starts last year. Their is a stat that tracks the big passing plays made of over 25 yards. Here is the partial list from last year for the AFC.

AFC Leaders in Big Play Passes (Thru games of Dec. 31, 2006)

Rank Player Team

1 Carson Palmer Cin 33

2 Philip Rivers SD 32

3 Peyton Manning Ind 31

4 Tom Brady NE 27

5 Ben Roethlisberger Pit 24

6 Chad Pennington NYJ 21

7 J.P. Losman Buf 19

8t Damon Huard KC 18

8t Steve McNair Bal 18

10 Vince Young Ten 16

15 Charlie Frye Cle 11

16t Jay Cutler Den 9

NFC

11t Matt Leinart Ari 17

Cutler had 9 plays of 25 yards or more in only four starts in his rookie season. Frye averaged less than one play of 25 yards or more per game, Cutler averaged over two per. Jay has a big time arm and the ability to make big plays, he has more talent than Charlie. Vince Young made 16 big plays as a rookie in his 13 starts but the above list does not list QB runs exceeding 25 yards so Young's big play ability is even higher. Lienart made the most big plays of the rookies, easily surpassed Frye.

The above demonstrates that Frye made less big plays and made more dumb rookie mistakes at crucial times during games but the next stat is why I can't take another wasted year with Frye.

I wanted to see how Frye performed at the most crucial time of the game. Crunch time, in the fourth quarter. I wanted to see if he stepped up and turned it on or if he turtled considering the Browns lost 12 games by 12 points or less and Frye had put us in a hole by not making big plays and by making horrible decisions at crucial times during games so if he could prove that he was able to overcome the mistakes and lack of innate talent by dominating crunch time then I'd be willing to see if he could develop. I found the following.

AFC Leaders in QB Rating, 4th Quarter (Thru games of Dec. 31, 2006)

(3.125 Att/Game)

Rank Player Team

1 Philip Rivers SD 116.6

2 Carson Palmer Cin 105.2

3 David Carr Hou 104.2

4 Damon Huard KC 101.2

5 Peyton Manning Ind 100.7

6 David Garrard Jac 95.6

7 J.P. Losman Buf 89.7

8 Tom Brady NE 85.0

9 Steve McNair Bal 83.2

10 Jake Plummer Den 80.5

15 Vince Young Ten 70.5

16 Matt Leinart Ari 58.8 *** (NFC I put him in to compare how the rookies compared)

17 Charlie Frye Cle 57.2

I did not see Cutler listed so he may not have qualified for this ranking. Frye was second only to Oakland QBs in the AFC and finished lower than all rookie QBs in his second year in the league. I have come to the conclusion that the Browns should not waste another second of developmental time on Frye but need to get a more talented QB prospect stat and begin developing them.

The QB crop is just as juicy as the RB crop next year and drafting a rookie QB to hold a clipboard all year is only good if your sure the same Head Coach is coming back. Romeo needs improvement now to keep his job now, he can't afford the luxury of spending this year's top 5 pick for next year.
The luxury is taking a risky and suspect Joe Thomas or a one-dimensional NT/DT or a RB who isn't an optimal fit for our scheme especially when considering the HUGE opportunity cost of bypassing the most important position on the field, the quarterback. Also if you look at the this time last year you'll find the exact same 'wait till next year' and we haven't seen enough of Charlie Frye and we can't afford to take a QB excuse. We can't afford the opportunity cost, the wasted development time, the draft opportunity to bypass a franchise QB in this draft.
One thing I'd like to add about the Orlando Brown thing is that not only were the Browns forced to eat Zeus' contract, but the league forced Carmen Policy to try and get Zeus to sign an agreement that he wouldn't sue the NFL. Up until that point, the blinded leader of an expansion OL was only talking about coming back and making the Browns a team to be proud of again. After he was approached by Carmen, he vowed that he would never play for us again and I think he picked Baltimore to piss the team brass off even more.
That is entirely correct, Policy was the whipping boi of Tags and of the other owners and had to do their bidding as Browns fans suffered just as we are suffering every year wasted without a legit and talented quarterback.
 
Nice post Bracie.

I agree that if it's not AP, it's Quinn that the Browns should take.

#3/4 is too high for Branch. Quality o-linemen can be had later in the draft. Calvin Johnson may be an option, but is not really a luxury they can afford. But neither Frye nor Anderson are the answer - either short or long term

 
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There seems to be contradicting thoughts here. On one hand you say that AP doesn't fit the blocking scheme but on the other hand you say the o-line (and by default the scheme) is terrible anyway. So if you're going to rebuild the line, why not rebuild it to suit an elite talent, rather than build a line and look for a talent later. In other words to say that you don't want AP because he doesn't fit well running behind the crappy line you already have in place doesn't make any sense. Remember how bad the lines were that Ladainian played behind his first few years in the league? Should they have bypassed him because they didn't have the proper line for him to run behind?
Funny you should mention that as the exact same contradicting thought is used against the drafting of a quarterback by many Browns fans. :lmao: In any event, the O-line is suspect and AP does not fit a power rush blocking scheme as well as a slide-zone blocking scheme.
And look at all the guys that did really well this year playing behind poor-to-average lines - Frank Gore, Steven Jackson, Tiki Barber, Willie Parker, Fred Taylor/MJD.
And if you look at the above players who played well, none of those you list were high first round draft selections.
Then take the case of Chester Taylor. Yes, he had a good year. But he only averaged an even 4.0 ypc. How much bigger would that number have been if it were an elite talent running behind McKinnie/Hutchinson/Birk than simply a pretty good one?
A free agent and a free agent offensive lineman, no high first round draft pick.
I think if you have a chance to draft an elite talent at the skill positions (and I think AP is in that category) you take it and build the team around him.
Well I would pose a series of questions:Do you think that AP will produce as well or better than LaDalian Thomlinson who had a record shattering season and has been a perrennial Pro Bowler and the best RB in the league over the time he has been in the league?Lets assume for the sake of argument that AP comes into the league and instantly produces just as well as LdT which I highly doubt he would do for a number of reasons but lets just make him the best RB in the league on par with LdT and go to the next series of questions.Can you explain why in six seasons that LdT has been in the league that he has never won a post season game?Can you explain why in the six NFL seasons that LdT has been in the league as the most dominant RB why he has only been to the post season twice?Can you explain why the only two post season games that LdT has been to his team had two different Pro Bowl QBs?I have come to my own conclusions about dominant RB play VS dominant QB play. BTW the Bolts lost to future HOF QB Tom Brady last year. KC with uber RB LJ lost out to future HOF QB Peyton Manning. Brady/Manning own four of the last six Lombardis. The one of the other two SB winning QBs was passed over by the Browns in order to take KWII. The Cleveland Browns have Charlie Frye as their starting QB. The year he was taken in the third round the Browns lost Jeff Garcia and Kelly Holcomb in free agency and traded away Luke McCowan then traded for Trent Dilfer with the plan to use Dilfer as the tutor for Frye. That year Alex Smith was the top pick, the Browns had no shot at him and ended up passing over Aarron Rodgers. Smith was the only QB I was interested in for 05 and I felt Frye was a decent value in the third with a low ceiling that we could expect him to be a solid backup but I did not expect him to be gifted the starting job with no competition.In 06 I wanted us to trade up for Lienart since I felt he was the most sure thing as an NFL QB prospect that I had seen. I was hoping that Young or Cutler would fall to us, didn't happen and we made no move up in the draft then we traded away Dilfer and gifted Frye the starter job. See my above reasoning as to why I have soured on any thought that the Browns should continue with one more wasted year with Frye at QB.Last year many Browns fans complained that Lienart wasn't as good as Brady Quinn. They were saying Matt was a party boy and he lacked the arm strength and athleticism and his wins were mostly due to great supporting cast and that next year the Browns could take Quinn. Yadda yadda yadda I won't go with a comparision of Quinn to many top QB prospects but I'll just say that the opportunity cost would be substantial if the Browns blew their shot at a legit franchise QB. We missed out the last two years but we didn't have the direct opportunity to take a top notch QB, this year we should have the opportunity and I feel very strongly that we cannot afford to bypass the single most important position on the field, QB.
 
I am not taking delight in an injury but it is a bit funny how nearly every move the Browns make blows up in their face.

 
I have come to my own conclusions about dominant RB play VS dominant QB play. BTW the Bolts lost to future HOF QB Tom Brady last year. KC with uber RB LJ lost out to future HOF QB Peyton Manning. Brady/Manning own four of the last six Lombardis. The one of the other two SB winning QBs was passed over by the Browns in order to take KWII. The Cleveland Browns have Charlie Frye as their starting QB. The year he was taken in the third round the Browns lost Jeff Garcia and Kelly Holcomb in free agency and traded away Luke McCowan then traded for Trent Dilfer with the plan to use Dilfer as the tutor for Frye. That year Alex Smith was the top pick, the Browns had no shot at him and ended up passing over Aarron Rodgers. Smith was the only QB I was interested in for 05 and I felt Frye was a decent value in the third with a low ceiling that we could expect him to be a solid backup but I did not expect him to be gifted the starting job with no competition.In 06 I wanted us to trade up for Lienart since I felt he was the most sure thing as an NFL QB prospect that I had seen. I was hoping that Young or Cutler would fall to us, didn't happen and we made no move up in the draft then we traded away Dilfer and gifted Frye the starter job. See my above reasoning as to why I have soured on any thought that the Browns should continue with one more wasted year with Frye at QB.Last year many Browns fans complained that Lienart wasn't as good as Brady Quinn. They were saying Matt was a party boy and he lacked the arm strength and athleticism and his wins were mostly due to great supporting cast and that next year the Browns could take Quinn. Yadda yadda yadda I won't go with a comparision of Quinn to many top QB prospects but I'll just say that the opportunity cost would be substantial if the Browns blew their shot at a legit franchise QB. We missed out the last two years but we didn't have the direct opportunity to take a top notch QB, this year we should have the opportunity and I feel very strongly that we cannot afford to bypass the single most important position on the field, QB.
And where I'm guilty of comparing AP to LT, you're guilty of comparing Quinn to Brady and Manning. :shock:I don't know what else you want me to say. I agreed with you that Quinn should get strong consideration for their #1.
 
Basically the fans of the Cleveland Browns have had enough. Our uber stud blue chip TE breaks his leg his rookie season and go on IR. Next year he's in a motorcyle accident and hits IR two consecutive years. The insult was that the QB we passed on goes to our most hated rival and he wins the Super Bowl and then we see him stop a winshield of an oncomoing vehicle with his face but HE doesn't miss one game, its quite maddening. Karma can make some other team her beyatch. The fans of the Cleveland Browns have had ENOUGH! :goodposting:
:lmao:
 

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