diesel7982
Footballguy
Top 5 deep threat in the league = Todd Pinkston (who hasnt done crap in his career)?
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Lelie >>> involved in a 3 way trade? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Team Legacy
- Start date
Top 5 deep threat in the league = Todd Pinkston (who hasnt done crap in his career)?diesel7982
Footballguy
No one is disputing that Bri, but the disagreement here is over how valuable that is.Lelie changes defenses with his ability to get deep.Swervin' Mervyn averaged 26 yards per catch one year and roughly 19 another and.....I think you're giving off some homerism here man. No one has disagreed with the "if he improved his game/developped" angle but we're talking about now. If he's not "just deep" than give me some stats that proves it. I already pointed out he either has none or very very few red zone TDs in his career. Gimme some stats for your side of the argument thenLelie isn't an average "just deep" WR. He's one of the top 5 deep threats in the NFL. There's a pretty big difference.You realize I know you're a bronco fan and remember all their "just deep" WRs?Right now, he's Swervin Mervyn, he might develop but for now....
THE UNDERCOVER BROTHA
Footballguy
Leile to the texans
for
former 2nd rounder Bennie Joppru
He was a bigtime guy in college and has been injured these past 2 years, he's healthy now and maybe Rick Smith/Shanny/Kubiak can pull of a deal between friends.
who knows
for
former 2nd rounder Bennie Joppru
He was a bigtime guy in college and has been injured these past 2 years, he's healthy now and maybe Rick Smith/Shanny/Kubiak can pull of a deal between friends.
who knows
diesel7982
Footballguy
Joppru is still on the team?
Team Legacy
Footballguy
Does this have any merit? Lelie wants to be a #1. He could be the #1 WR in SF.
Maybe a healthy Eric Johnson is just what Shanny ordered?
diesel7982
Footballguy
Is that on the menu? That would be an interesting fit, provided Johnson is actually healthy, which I severely doubt.
My arguement *ISN'T* that he's anything other than "just deep". I readily admit that he is completely lacking in the skills necessary to be a #1 WR, or anything other than a phenominal deep threat. I agree with you- Lelie's going to be phenominal on the long ball and will leave a lot to be desired on everything else.That said, I think a large part of his value comes from the way teams defend him. When he's on the field, teams are forced to keep players deep against the threat of the long ball. He alters gameplans more than any other WR2 in the league, which is something that an offense can take advantage of in a big way between the 20s. He's not much help in the red zone, but from what I've seen, New England likes to use its TEs a lot in the red zone, anyway.
saintfool
Dead sexy
ok, so i read that they signed UFA billy miller. it doesn't change the fact that the saints have a ton of TE's. campbell and euhus are more blocking than anything. hilton can't block. conwell, at this stage in his career, is a back-up. miller is a decent receiver, as i understand it, and has legit experience as a starter. hilton looks like he's expendable and the saints need an experienced WR like lelie. hilton is freakish enough, physically, that he could thrive in an offense like that. right up their alley.:don'tthinkitwillhappen:
hoofnstang
Footballguy
I'd be willing to bet that if Lelie was involved in a 3 way - he still couldn't catch any balls...
redman
Footballguy
Sorry, but I see far more similarities between them than differences, even in their stats:ASHLIE LELIE
+--------------------------+-------------------------+ | Rushing | Receiving |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 2002 den | 16 | 4 40 10.0 0 | 35 525 15.0 2 || 2003 den | 16 | 8 43 5.4 0 | 37 628 17.0 2 || 2004 den | 16 | 3 5 1.7 0 | 54 1084 20.1 7 || 2005 den | 16 | 5 84 16.8 0 | 42 770 18.3 1 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| TOTAL | 64 | 20 172 8.6 0 | 168 3007 17.9 12 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+TODD PINKSTON
Code:
+--------------------------+-------------------------+ | Rushing | Receiving |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 2000 phi | 16 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 10 181 18.1 0 || 2001 phi | 15 | 1 5 5.0 0 | 42 586 14.0 4 || 2002 phi | 15 | 1 -15 -15.0 0 | 60 798 13.3 7 || 2003 phi | 16 | 1 -11 -11.0 0 | 36 575 16.0 2 || 2004 phi | 16 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 36 676 18.8 1 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| TOTAL | 78 | 3 -21 -7.0 0 | 184 2816 15.3 14 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+In one sense you're right - I'd take Lelie over Pinkston given Pinkston's lack of toughness (and now his injuries), but their overall profiles as receivers are very similar IMHO.
Yenrub
Footballguy
How is the tight end position used in Denver? Is that position primarily pass catching or blocking. I know Sharpe was pass catching but it’s been a few years since he was there.
What about the guys NE drafted at TE this year are they considered pass catching TE’s or blocking TE’s.
Maybe it’s Watson the Broncos want and not Graham.
What about the guys NE drafted at TE this year are they considered pass catching TE’s or blocking TE’s.
Maybe it’s Watson the Broncos want and not Graham.
Ramblin' Irish
Footballguy
I thought Shefter said that the team in the 3 way trade that did not get Lelie would be the one giving up the TE. Therefore, if it is NE giving up Graham, I would expect them to get a draft pick(s), not Lelie.Anyone else hear him say this?
diesel7982
Footballguy
1)Denver's TEs play mainly a pass-catching role. See Sharpe, Putzier, Billy Miller, etc2)NE wouldnt trade Watson
Disagree about Denver's TEs. Putzier, as you might recall, was just cut from the team. Denver's TEs are very active in the passing game... but Shanahan demands a very high level of blocking proficiency from all players on the field except for the QB. Putzier never saw the field in the red zone just because his blocking wasn't up to snuff. In fact, Denver's best and most prolific TE over the past decade not named "Sharpe", as well as the only other one to make the pro bowl, is a player named Dwayne Carswell, nicknamed "House". House currently weighs 300 pounds and is an offensive guard. I believe he's the only guard in the history of the NFL to catch two TDs in the same game.Blocking is HUGE in Denver. Receiving skills will get you drafted, but blocking skills will get you resigned and on the field.
diesel7982
Footballguy
As a life long Broncos' fan, Id disagree with you again.Any TE in the NFL must be proficient at blocking.
All Im saying is Denver uses their TEs more as recievers than most NFL teams, than they do blockers.
Sharpe, Desmond Clark, Dwyane Carswell(who played in the 270 range when he was solely a TE), Billy Miller, and Jeb Putzier all are converted WRs(with of course the exception of Carswell) and have been relied upon as recievers and not blockers.
Carswell and Stephen Alexander are the type of guys who Shanny has kept around to assist in blocking in short yardage and goalline situations, but who always saw the field less than their starting, recieving counterpart.
Also, and its possible Im wrong about this, but when has Carswell ever played Guard? Ive seen him lined up as a 3rd TE, and as an OT, but never an OG.
I will agree that Denver uses its TEs as receiving threats more than most other teams.I will disagree that Denver DOESN'T use its TEs as blockers more than most other teams. Denver's TEs are more involved receiving, but they're also more involved blocking. Sharpe was the best receiving TE in the history of the NFL, but even he was forced to become a better blocker (especially in his second stint with the team). Putzier was cut because his blocking was deficient. Billy Miller is sort of pointless for this discussion, since he had 6 career receptions as a Bronco (and therefore isn't indicative at all of how Denver uses its TEs).
I recall a game where Denver played almost the entire game in 2-TE/1-RB sets, and then constantly motioned one of the TEs into the backfield to play fullback- that's how confident they were in the blocking skills of their TEs. And once again, I'll invoke Putzier's name as proof positive that, no matter how good of a receiver you are, if you aren't a very good blocker, you aren't sticking around.
As for Carswell... he has never played Guard in an NFL game. In 2004, Denver was going to convert him to tackle, but switched him back to TE when they had a shortage at the position. In 2005, Denver converted him to Guard, where he was a reserve until his season was ended by a car crash. As you can see, even the team's official website lists him as a Guard. Unless someone gets hurt, all he really is is emergency depth on the O-Line and a fantastic threat in goal-line sets.
GRIDIRON ASSASSIN
Footballguy
When the Pats drafted two TEs, I got excited that the Bears might be able to deal for Daniel Graham.
Unfortunately, most people forget Christian Fauria was a Patriot last year, so they had three above average TEs last year.....
This year they have two, an early round TE and a later round TE prospect....
Unfortunately, most people forget Christian Fauria was a Patriot last year, so they had three above average TEs last year.....
This year they have two, an early round TE and a later round TE prospect....
-OZ-
Footballguy
That does make sense, Graham is more likely, but EJ would be a good pickup for Denver.Although I'd like to see Kinney get dealt, Lelie isn't going to do much for Tennessee.
Thinking for a second, that's not relevant.
Denver: gives Lelie, gets TE
A: gives TE, gets a pick
B: Gives a pick, gets Lelie
A as TN makes sense too
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bigreese82
Footballguy
TN: Kinney for an OL would make good sense to me...Doesn't Denver have a lot of depth there
Good lord, no. Denver is EXTREMELY thin at the O-line (their primary backup is a 33 or so year old former TE). Things would be reaching catastrophic proportions, given the steep learning curve of a Denver lineman, if Shanny hadn't gone out to add some quality depth this offseason (which he did with two new rookie draft picks who look phenominal for the system).Edit: Besides, Denver's trying to move Lelie, not an OL.
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BoltBacker
Footballguy
Not only that but one of those TE prospects is supposed to see time at FB as well I believe.People are making too much of the two rookie TE's drafted. It's the typical NE hedge to develop draft picks so when Grahams contract comes up they don't have to overpay him. I'm guessing neither rookie TE is counted on too heavily this season.
diesel7982
Footballguy
Mills is supposed to see time as an H-back, not at fullback.While you are right that neither rookie will likely be counted on heavily this year, its a sure sign that Graham will not be brought back in '07. Hes been way too much of an injury liability to justify keeping when they have adequate replacements lined up.
Denver does well with OL, but as far as I can tell, they can't afford to lose one.I think the Titans would prefer a pick anyway.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
Isn't it pretty much splitting hairs in the first place?Is a FB catching passes out of the backfield an H-back? A TE catching passes out of the backfield. Whatever. I refused to get drawn into the "what position are we going to call the position Frank Wycheck plays?" debates in the past and will continue to do so.
If he wants to call the position H-Back more power to him. It's fine with me.
hacman
Footballguy
To those who thought the Saints & the Niners were in the mix, this is lifted from ESPN's NFL chat with Jeremy Green today:
Brett (LA): Jeremy, my boy. I heard a rumor regarding a three team trade involving Lelie and a Tight End. Do you know the tight end in question? It's strange because with Stephen Alexander and Tony Scheffler, not sure why tight end became such a NEED position for Denver.
SportsNation Jeremy Green: Hey Brett. There has been some buzz today about a three team trade involving Ashley Lelie, SF's Eric Johnson and the Saints Donte Stallworth. Lelie would go to New Orleans, Stallworth to the 49ers and Johnson to Denver. I think Denver is still just shaking the tree with teams to see what exactly they can get for Lelie.
____________________________________
Tom (SF): Do you like that rumored trade for all three teams involved?
SportsNation Jeremy Green: I like it for the 49ers because they have Davis and get rid of an injury prone TE while adding another much needed playmaker in Stallworth. The Saints are getting an underachiever and for Denver I don't get it because they have Alexander and drafted a TE. I would give SF then nod if it goes down.
Brett (LA): Jeremy, my boy. I heard a rumor regarding a three team trade involving Lelie and a Tight End. Do you know the tight end in question? It's strange because with Stephen Alexander and Tony Scheffler, not sure why tight end became such a NEED position for Denver.
SportsNation Jeremy Green: Hey Brett. There has been some buzz today about a three team trade involving Ashley Lelie, SF's Eric Johnson and the Saints Donte Stallworth. Lelie would go to New Orleans, Stallworth to the 49ers and Johnson to Denver. I think Denver is still just shaking the tree with teams to see what exactly they can get for Lelie.
____________________________________
Tom (SF): Do you like that rumored trade for all three teams involved?
SportsNation Jeremy Green: I like it for the 49ers because they have Davis and get rid of an injury prone TE while adding another much needed playmaker in Stallworth. The Saints are getting an underachiever and for Denver I don't get it because they have Alexander and drafted a TE. I would give SF then nod if it goes down.
jurb26
Footballguy
I don't see how this is a good trade for any of the teams. So let me get this straight, SF gets rid of a solid TE who can help Davis along for a year or two who is claimed "injury prone" for Stallworth? Has this guy even looked at Stallworth's injury log? Not too mention that SF already went out and got Bryant and Battle is supposedly coming along very well. Den trades for yet another TE? This must just be some sort of desperate ploy to get rid of Lelie if this is the case. I guess Lelie in NO makes some sense, one malcontent WR gone in Stallworth for another in Lelie but at least both players would get fresh starts. I only see NO making good in this deal, but maybe thats just me.
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hacman
Footballguy
Having Stallworth & Bryant- both guys you have to force the ball early in a game to make sure their head is in the game- would be an issue. However, Stallworth as a 3rd wide out (his game is better suited to be a 3rd) would add danger to the Niners offense. Stallworth did his damage as a rookie out of that spot and he would bring that needed element to Turner's vertical offense. (Brandon Williams was drafted to hopefully be that guy and return kicks/punts.) Theoretically, they could be a nice trio of receivers, not to mention Davis. That said, this sounds like pure speculation.I don't see how this is a good trade for any of the teams. So let me get this straight, SF gets rid of a solid TE who can help Davis along for a year or two who is claimed "injury prone" for Stallworth? Has this guy even looked at Stallworth's injury log? Not too mention that SF already went out and got Bryant and Battle is supposedly coming along very well. Den trades for yet another TE? This must just be some sort of desperate ploy to get rid of Lelie if this is the case. I guess Lelie in NO makes some sense, one malcontent WR gone in Stallworth for another in Lelie but at least both players would get fresh starts. I only see NO making good in this deal, but maybe thats just me.
diesel7982
Footballguy
Thoughts in bold.edit because i cant do math.I don't see how this is a good trade for any of the teams. So let me get this straight, SF gets rid of a solid TE who can help Davis along for a year or two who is claimed "injury prone"
EJ is an injury prone backup with one good year in his career. Hes nothing, and has no future role with the team.
for Stallworth? Has this guy even looked at Stallworth's injury log? Not too mention that SF already went out and got Bryant and Battle is supposedly coming along very well.
Stallworth is a young, productive WR who is arguably better than Bryant and worlds better than Battle.
Also, the "injury log" you are referring to with Stallworth has him missing 10 TOTAL games in 4 years, or 2.5 games a year. He's missed 1 game in each of the last 2 years.
Den trades for yet another TE? This must just be some sort of desperate ploy to get rid of Lelie if this is the case.
I agree. While EJ is interesting from a fantasy perspective just b/c of how DEN uses their TEs, I cant see him being a factor for them from an NFL perspective.
I guess Lelie in NO makes some sense, one malcontent WR gone in Stallworth for another in Lelie but at least both players would get fresh starts. I only see NO making good in this deal, but maybe thats just me.
Lelie would fit the type of offense Payton runs, and I think hes exactly the type of WR they need. Safties can't cheat up when Lelie is on the field, and with Bush in the backfield, there will be all sorts of matchup problems for the opposing D.
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FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
I'm not really following you on this at all. Stallworth is injury prone? Wha?? When was the last time you took a look at Eric Johnson? The guy has missed more games to injury than Stallworth has. At least Stallworth would be walking into a position to start. Sure, people love to talk about how EJ is going to catch 70 balls in 2 TE sets but c'mon, when was the last time a #2 TE ever put up anything near that? And how much success have teams had running a lot of 2TE sets with two pass catching TEs? That sure won't help that already struggling ground game they've got going on there..On Denver's side, they've got a disgruntled #3 WR who wants out, and a chance to get a starting TE that they've been trying to find since Sharpe left out of the deal.I don't see how this is a good trade for any of the teams. So let me get this straight, SF gets rid of a solid TE who can help Davis along for a year or two who is claimed "injury prone" for Stallworth? Has this guy even looked at Stallworth's injury log? Not too mention that SF already went out and got Bryant and Battle is supposedly coming along very well. Den trades for yet another TE? This must just be some sort of desperate ploy to get rid of Lelie if this is the case. I guess Lelie in NO makes some sense, one malcontent WR gone in Stallworth for another in Lelie but at least both players would get fresh starts. I only see NO making good in this deal, but maybe thats just me.
N.O. like you said gets a fresh start on their disgruntled WR, which has worked several times for teams before, and he actually fits pretty well into that team as a #2 WR that's a deep threat alongside the aging Horn who is more suited to go underneath nowadays.
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jurb26
Footballguy
Johnson has only had the chance to perform one time in his career and he did. There are only 3 seasons to even look at and the 1st 2 had TO getting all the targets. Not many TEs make an impact their rookie year, Johnson was not different. Davis will likely be no different too. Stallworth has been hampered by his hamstring now in 3 out of his 4 years in the league. Big deal that he has missed less games, he is not able to play up to potential on a regular basis. If you want to lable Johnson as injury prone, I don't see how you can not slap that lable on Stallworth too. Both have had more than their share of injury problems in very short careers. Didn't Den supposedly already get their TE in Stevens?Thoughts in bold.edit because i cant do math.I don't see how this is a good trade for any of the teams. So let me get this straight, SF gets rid of a solid TE who can help Davis along for a year or two who is claimed "injury prone"
EJ is an injury prone backup with one good year in his career. Hes nothing, and has no future role with the team.
for Stallworth? Has this guy even looked at Stallworth's injury log? Not too mention that SF already went out and got Bryant and Battle is supposedly coming along very well.
Stallworth is a young, productive WR who is arguably better than Bryant and worlds better than Battle.
Also, the "injury log" you are referring to with Stallworth has him missing 10 TOTAL games in 4 years, or 2.5 games a year. He's missed 1 game in each of the last 2 years.
Den trades for yet another TE? This must just be some sort of desperate ploy to get rid of Lelie if this is the case.
I agree. While EJ is interesting from a fantasy perspective just b/c of how DEN uses their TEs, I cant see him being a factor for them from an NFL perspective.
I guess Lelie in NO makes some sense, one malcontent WR gone in Stallworth for another in Lelie but at least both players would get fresh starts. I only see NO making good in this deal, but maybe thats just me.
Lelie would fit the type of offense Payton runs, and I think hes exactly the type of WR they need. Safties can't cheat up when Lelie is on the field, and with Bush in the backfield, there will be all sorts of matchup problems for the opposing D.
I agree, Lelie in NO makes sense and I like that fit. Not much else seems good to me in this deal though.
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diesel7982
Footballguy
That first bolded part is absolutely silly. EJ has missed two ENTIRE seasons in his 5 year career. Stallworth has missed 10 games in a 4 year career. I dont think I have to do the math for you there.For the second bolded part, I presume you mean Schefller, and my response would be I dont believe they think he will contribute much this season.Johnson has only had the chance to perform one time in his career and he did. There are only 3 seasons to even look at and the 1st 2 had TO getting all the targets. Not many TEs make an impact their rookie year, Johnson was not different. Davis will likely be no different too. Stallworth has been hampered by his hamstring now in 3 out of his 4 years in the league. Big deal that he has missed less games, he is not able to play up to potential on a regular basis. If you want to lable Johnson as injury prone, I don't see how you can not slap that lable on Stallworth too. Both have had more than their share of injury problems in very short careers. Didn't Den supposedly already get their TE in Stevens?Thoughts in bold.edit because i cant do math.I don't see how this is a good trade for any of the teams. So let me get this straight, SF gets rid of a solid TE who can help Davis along for a year or two who is claimed "injury prone"
EJ is an injury prone backup with one good year in his career. Hes nothing, and has no future role with the team.
for Stallworth? Has this guy even looked at Stallworth's injury log? Not too mention that SF already went out and got Bryant and Battle is supposedly coming along very well.
Stallworth is a young, productive WR who is arguably better than Bryant and worlds better than Battle.
Also, the "injury log" you are referring to with Stallworth has him missing 10 TOTAL games in 4 years, or 2.5 games a year. He's missed 1 game in each of the last 2 years.
Den trades for yet another TE? This must just be some sort of desperate ploy to get rid of Lelie if this is the case.
I agree. While EJ is interesting from a fantasy perspective just b/c of how DEN uses their TEs, I cant see him being a factor for them from an NFL perspective.
I guess Lelie in NO makes some sense, one malcontent WR gone in Stallworth for another in Lelie but at least both players would get fresh starts. I only see NO making good in this deal, but maybe thats just me.
Lelie would fit the type of offense Payton runs, and I think hes exactly the type of WR they need. Safties can't cheat up when Lelie is on the field, and with Bush in the backfield, there will be all sorts of matchup problems for the opposing D.
I agree, Lelie in NO makes sense and I like that fit. Not much else seems good to me in this deal though.
Not really. Denver genuinely needs the TE. I mean, just looking at it from a numbers standpoint... Denver has lost two TEs from last season- the veteran passcatcher in Putzier, and the prospect in Duke. They have replaced the prospect, but not the veteran passcatcher. Tight End is generally considered the NFL position that has the steepest learning curve (even above WR), so expecting Scheffler to contribute as a rookie is... overly optimistic.I don't see how this is a good trade for any of the teams. So let me get this straight, SF gets rid of a solid TE who can help Davis along for a year or two who is claimed "injury prone" for Stallworth? Has this guy even looked at Stallworth's injury log? Not too mention that SF already went out and got Bryant and Battle is supposedly coming along very well. Den trades for yet another TE? This must just be some sort of desperate ploy to get rid of Lelie if this is the case. I guess Lelie in NO makes some sense, one malcontent WR gone in Stallworth for another in Lelie but at least both players would get fresh starts. I only see NO making good in this deal, but maybe thats just me.
Denver runs a ton of 2-TE sets. Stephen Alexander is serviceable, but not at all spectacular. Shanny praises his blocking, but I've never been that impressed with it, and his receiving skills are pretty mediocre as well.Denver has had 3 TEs on their roster for the past 3 seasons (always falling into the categories of the huge passing threat, the veteran blocker with solid receiving skills, and the developmental prospect). The season before that, they only had two TEs... but both were pro bowlers (Sharpe and Carswell). The two seasons before that, again they had 3 TEs. In 1999, they actually had FOUR TEs- Sharpe, who got injured, then the passcatcher in Chamberlain, the blocker in Carswell, and the prospect in Clark. '98, 97, 96, 95... again, they carried and used 3 TEs.
Historically, Shanahan almost ALWAYS has 3 TEs on his roster- a catcher, a blocker/catcher, and a prospect. Only once in his 11 seasons with the squad has he deviated from that blueprint. This season, he's short a receiving TE. That's why Denver's looking to trade Lelie for a TE despite having already drafted one.
jurb26
Footballguy
I couldn't agree more. So why is nobody applying this same logic to Davis? Injury prone or not, I don't see the benifit in letting go of Johnson for SF. He's been there and played at an elite level before. SF has invested a good git into Davis and Johnson shold prove helpful to his development.
psychobillies
Footballguy
I don't see why Lelie is being talked about as a good fit in New Orleans. Sure he's a good deep threat, but Stallworth is faster than him and Henderson was drafted to be a deep ball specialist. Stallworth for Lelie would make no sense for the Saints no matter how the trade comes around.
On top of that, Payton is trying to purge the roster of underachieving malcontents, which IMO describes Lelie perfectly. He wouldn't be #1 here either.
On top of that, Payton is trying to purge the roster of underachieving malcontents, which IMO describes Lelie perfectly. He wouldn't be #1 here either.
I don't know. I agree that it would benefit San Francisco to keep Johnson around to mentor Davis... but at the same time, I also think that no matter what they do, they don't have a prayer this season, so they might as well start planning for the future. I think two or three years from now, Lelie would be more beneficial for the team than Johnson... and acquiring him via trade right now means you have a year to evaluate him before he hits the market, and it also means that you don't have to get into a bidding war to get him.
Nope, look at the numbers. Aikman was a pro bowler by his 3rd season. Manning's huge record-breaking season was his second. Peyton Manning had 60+% completion, 4000+ yards, and a positive TD/INT ratio in season #2. Eli had 3700+ yards, saw his ypa jump 1.5 points, and had a positive TD/INT ratio. Brian Griese threw for 3000 yards in his second season, and had the 2nd best TD:INT ratio of all time in his 3rd. Brett Favre was a pro bowler in his second season. Culpepper had a 62% completion rate, 3937 yards, a ridiculous 8.3 ypa, and 33/16 TD/INT spread. Marc Bulger- 3845 yards and 62+% completion rate in year 2. Aaron Brooks- 3832 yards. Bledsoe- 4555 yards and a pro bowl. Carson Palmer- 32/12 TD/Ints, 3836 yards, and serious MVP consideration in his 2nd/3rd season (depending on if you count 2003).History is LITTERED with QBs who all of a sudden get it and are studs within their first two seasons. It's a lot less common from TEs and QBs. I think Shockey was the only rookie TE in the last couple of decades to make any significant impact.
Boone22
Footballguy
A Rumor from another thread...
A league source said that the Broncos have been associated with another veteran running back – T.J. Duckett of the Atlanta Falcons – as part of a potential three-team trade. The deal would also send Broncos wide receiver Ashley Lelie to the New England Patriots and Patriots tight end Daniel Graham to the Falcons, who could also receive a draft choice.
From this thread...
http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...howtopic=245794
Link to original article...
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=Aquq...=yhoo&type=lgns
A league source said that the Broncos have been associated with another veteran running back – T.J. Duckett of the Atlanta Falcons – as part of a potential three-team trade. The deal would also send Broncos wide receiver Ashley Lelie to the New England Patriots and Patriots tight end Daniel Graham to the Falcons, who could also receive a draft choice.
From this thread...
http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...howtopic=245794
Link to original article...
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=Aquq...=yhoo&type=lgns
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diesel7982
Footballguy
Its already been reported that Denver has turned down an offer of TJ Duckett for Ashley Lelie.
Boone22
Footballguy
I should have clarified...The link actual shows interest in Chris Brown...
Having drafted LenDale White and re-signed Travis Henry, Tennessee Titans general manager Floyd Reese may trade first-string running back Chris Brown – or allow him to seek a deal with teams in need of backs with starting experience – according to a source close to Brown.
Brown is in his last year of his contract, so any trade could require that the new team come to an agreement on a new, long-term deal. Reese has not given Brown permission to pursue trades, but Brown would be an excellent target for teams looking for an experienced back, such as the Denver Broncos and Houston Texans.
A league source said that the Broncos have been associated with another veteran running back – T.J. Duckett of the Atlanta Falcons – as part of a potential three-team trade. The deal would also send Broncos wide receiver Ashley Lelie to the New England Patriots and Patriots tight end Daniel Graham to the Falcons, who could also receive a draft choice.
Having drafted LenDale White and re-signed Travis Henry, Tennessee Titans general manager Floyd Reese may trade first-string running back Chris Brown – or allow him to seek a deal with teams in need of backs with starting experience – according to a source close to Brown.
Brown is in his last year of his contract, so any trade could require that the new team come to an agreement on a new, long-term deal. Reese has not given Brown permission to pursue trades, but Brown would be an excellent target for teams looking for an experienced back, such as the Denver Broncos and Houston Texans.
A league source said that the Broncos have been associated with another veteran running back – T.J. Duckett of the Atlanta Falcons – as part of a potential three-team trade. The deal would also send Broncos wide receiver Ashley Lelie to the New England Patriots and Patriots tight end Daniel Graham to the Falcons, who could also receive a draft choice.
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Footballguy
I could not disagree with this post more. It's easy to list off all the QBs that have done it, all the while not mentioning the TEs that have (which are plentiful) and totally ignoring the fact that there are a lot more highly rated QBs coming out of college than there are highly rated TEs.I assume you meant Marino's record breaking season came in his 2nd year (not Manning). Nice of you to leave out the part where the record breaking TE season also came from a second year guy (Gates for 1000/13 in year #2).
By year #3 Gonzo was putting up 900/9, which is about equivalent to a 3500/30 season for a QB. Bubba Franks had 9 TDs in year 2. Shockey as you mentioned went for nearly 900yds as a rookie. Randy Mcmichael and Alge Crumpler were putting up top 10 TE numbers by year #2, and Todd Heap was a top 3 TE in his 2nd year in the league. Jason Witten also went for 980/6 (again...huge for a TE) in year #2.
These are all just current guys too, whereas you're going back 23 years for QB examples. To say that the NFL is littered with QBs doing this and TEs are few and far between is absolutely false. Nearly all the TEs worth drafting in FF right now were putting up solid numbers by year #2 or #3. Sure, like you said only one or so was really doing it by year #1, but the same is true for QBs (Roethlisberger).
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