LGBT, LGBTQ, LGBT+ Thread (4 Viewers)

[bigbottom]

For adults in social situations, that's up for the two people involved. As an adult, if I'm talking to another adult in a purely social situation, I don't have a problem calling someone by what they tell me is their "real name" if that's how they introduce themselves.

For minors? ( Which is the real focus of what is going on here. The radical left wants to indoctrinate minors while they are vulnerable and impressionable. Some of those minors want to choose the pathway towards shifting and will be happy with that choice for life. Many countless other minors are not at the capacity to make that kind of decision. This also includes actual legal distinctions involved)  No. Minors don't get to be called whatever they want. Minors have limited rights in our society. Part of that is to protect them from others. Part of that is to protect them from themselves. In some cases, minors have literally no rights in some areas, the law operates in almost absolute terms that limits them until they are legal adults.

In matters of national security, public safety, public health and public administration? No. If you walk into the DMV or the Social Security Administration or your local FBI branch or a hospital, you should get called your "legal name" on paper.

You're a smart guy, bigbottom. You know the approach here by the Democratic Party, particularly the hard radical woke left, is to selectively target minors and children. The radical left wants to inch forward, bit by bit, to take parental rights out of this equation. They want a system where a few counseling sessions can mean a minor can elect to take puberty blockers without needing parental consent.

We are now delving into an actual legal matter.

So no, nothing you are saying operates for actual functional governance. Zero. You are washing through practical context and trying to trigger situational empathy. It's a cheap lawyer trick by the subset of lawyers who aren't as lazy as most of the rest.

Let's get real here. If 95 percent of the LGBT community consistently voted Republican, the current radical left would selectively target them at multiple levels of open conflict.

Don't mess with people's children. And the law actually supports that end. Minors have few to no practical legal rights. ( Please do not go splitting hairs on this, don't do the 'Typical 4th Tier Lawyer At FBG' thing) The radical left and the establishment Democrat don't want to indoctrinate legal adults who are LGBT. They've already secured that voting block. They want the feeder system.

Hitler-Jugend, Bund deutscher Arbeiterjugend

The methodology used by the radical left against America's children is structurally very similar to what the Nazi's did in Germany to wedge children against their parents if those parents were not in lockstep with a very narrow ideology that supported the Party apparatus at all costs. ( i.e. Gesetz über die Hitlerjugend and Jugenddienstpflicht ) And to start, to lull people, the Nazis used people who sound very much like you do, to convince the parents that this was for the greater good.

I'm not offended by your personal political ideology. I'm offended by the lack of skill involved in soft serve back door manipulation against practical context that's trying to skirt around the law. If you are going to do something, do it right.

Don't mess with America's children. Don't even come close to it. People are instinctively zero tolerance to any brand of cooked social and cultural terrorism used against their kids.

I appreciate the effort and creativity that went into this post, including your oft tread anti-lawyer screed. You are a gem. 
 

 

[bigbottom]

As for the compliments in recent posts, they are much appreciated, but wholly undeserving. Aside from some pro-kindness points and a plea to stop the name-calling in the hopes that the discussion can be elevated, I don’t think I’ve brought much of substance to the debate. That said, I’ve enjoyed following this thread and have learned a lot from those who have personal experiences or have really thought through the consequences and ramifications of alternative approaches to a very thorny issue. 

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I should clarify what I just wrote: 

1. it is a legitimate point of view that males who have transitioned into females should not be allowed to compete in female sporting events. 

2. It is a legitimate point of view that medical treatment to aid transitioning, particularly surgery, should not be legal for minors. 
 

Anyone who holds the above viewpoints is not ignorant or intolerant or hateful or bigoted. These are legitimate arguments which people of good will can disagree about. There are, however, other positions regarding trans which have been espoused in this thread which ARE ignorant, intolerant, hateful and bigoted, and which should be treated as such. 

Tim, with all due respect, nobody cares how you adjudicate these issues.  If you consider a particular point of view bigoted, great.  If not, that's great too.  It's not relevant.

 

[timschochet]

Tim, with all due respect, nobody cares how you adjudicate these issues.  If you consider a particular point of view bigoted, great.  If not, that's great too.  It's not relevant.

The same could be said of everyone of my opinions, and of yours, and everyone else’s in this thread. And it’s all true. 
My response is: it’s relevant to me. Which is the reason I post it. If it’s irrelevant to others then I imagine they will ignore it. 

 

[bigbottom]

For me, discussion and debate is interesting and most productive when the specifics of opinions, assertions and theses are defended and challenged.  Far less interesting, and monumentally less productive, is the desire to characterize the nature of the opinions, assertions or theses as opposed to debating the merits. My general suggestion is that when you (not just you Tim, but folks generally) get to the point in your post where you are typing the words “well, your opinion is [blank]” you consider leaving that part out of the post because it is almost always counterproductive and rarely bolsters your point in any substantive way. Instead, it leads to a side debate on whether or not the opinion is worthy of your characterization as opposed to worthy on the merits of its own reasoning. 

You make a valid point. I will stop using such terms. 
 

There are, however, other positions regarding trans which have been espoused in this thread which ARE ignorant, intolerant, hateful and bigoted, and which should be treated as such. 

Well, that lasted about a day or so. 

 

[timschochet]

Well, that lasted about a day or so. 

You’re right. My bad. But there are certain viewpoints- I don’t know what terms to use. I very much appreciate  your kindness and civility towards these opinions  but I have trouble sharing it. They anger me because this isn’t just some theoretical issue we’re discussing here. Real lives are at stake. Kids are killing themselves because too many people around them express some of the same positions we are reading here. 
 

But…I know you’re right. 

 

[timschochet]

I will bow out of this discussion. I get too emotional. If I offended anyone here I apologize. 

 

[bigbottom]

You’re right. My bad. But there are certain viewpoints- I don’t know what terms to use. I very much appreciate  your kindness and civility towards these opinions  but I have trouble sharing it. They anger me because this isn’t just some theoretical issue we’re discussing here. Real lives are at stake. Kids are killing themselves because too many people around them express some of the same positions we are reading here. 
 

But…I know you’re right. 

Hey, you don’t have to agree with me or comply with my request. I’m not the boss of you. But there’s a reason why I enjoy reading posts like Fatguy’s and Ivan’s that tackle the merits of the discussion and are less concerned with demonizing the views held by others. But I also acknowledge that some level of demonizing is a bit of straight talk and while courtesy and politeness may help elevate debate, candid expression of thoughts and feelings can ultimately be a more genuine response. Anyway, enough blowhard editorializing by me. 

 

[bigbottom]

I’m on an island with this kindness campaign. 

 

[PhillipPhoto]

:(

That was rather harsh. 

When I get some time, later today, I'll gladly list out with links and proof where Tim flat out lies in this thread. It ought to be against forum rules if done purposely, and if it's not on purpose he needs serious help.  

And then he proclaims that if you dont agree with him you are a bigot. That takes the cake. Its the worst kind of dishonest  trolling behavior. It doesnt even deserve to be called debate or discussion.  

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

I’m on an island with this kindness campaign. 

With you on this. 

 

[squistion]

When I get some time, later today, I'll gladly list out with links and proof where Tim flat out lies in this thread. It ought to be against forum rules if done purposely, and if it's not on purpose he needs serious help. 

It seems you just disagree with Tim's opinion or point of view, as I haven't seen any flat out lies from him. And he is pretty good at acknowledging, when it has been pointed out, that he has made a misstatement of fact.

 

[John123]

I’m on an island with this kindness campaign. 

No you're not.  As you noted Ivan, FGIALC, and some others are more than civil.  But the more "pointed" posters tend to make an impression.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I’m on an island with this kindness campaign. 

Some of us are just happy lurking on the sidelines a bit and hoping the sniping fizzles out soon.  

 

[PhillipPhoto]

It seems you just disagree with Tim's opinion or point of view, as I haven't seen any flat out lies from him. And he is pretty good at acknowledging, when it has been pointed out, that he has made a misstatement of fact.

I will help you with your blindfold. Dont worry. 

 

[pinkham13]

I agree with the ruling, but the flip side is that if someone asks not to be called “sir” or “ma’am,” common courtesy should rule the day. 
 

Also, I’m not getting into the “mentally ill” debate, but it feels like some get a kick out of frequently using that term in this thread to get a rise outta others. Feels counterproductive to having a good discussion. 

No discussion based on lies is worth having. Denmark and Sweden banned this insanity https://www.wnd.com/2022/04/gop-lawmaker-unleashes-letter-demanding-answers-bidens-hhs-secretary/

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

You’re right. My bad. But there are certain viewpoints- I don’t know what terms to use. I very much appreciate  your kindness and civility towards these opinions  but I have trouble sharing it. They anger me because this isn’t just some theoretical issue we’re discussing here. Real lives are at stake. Kids are killing themselves because too many people around them express some of the same positions we are reading here. 
 

But…I know you’re right. 

Let them all pass

all their dirty remarks

there is one question

I'd really like to ask

Is there a place

for the `opeless sinner

who has hurt all mankind

just to save his own beliefs?

 

[BladeRunner]

Trans doctor who helps teens transition says it’s now ‘gone too far’

https://nypost.com/2022/04/15/transitions-have-gone-too-far-trans-psychologist/

 

[dkp993]

Let them all pass

all their dirty remarks

there is one question

I'd really like to ask

Is there a place

for the `opeless sinner

who has hurt all mankind

just to save his own beliefs?

Always good to have you posting DW.  Hope your doing well.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

Trans doctor who helps teens transition says it’s now ‘gone too far’

https://nypost.com/2022/04/15/transitions-have-gone-too-far-trans-psychologist/

I mean if her main beef seems to be that a kid got additional treatment without going to psychologists first - I can agree that seems sketchy.  

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Somebody figure out a way to convince Republicans that climate change is turning kids transgender. 

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I mean if her main beef seems to be that a kid got additional treatment without going to psychologists first - I can agree that seems sketchy.  

Do people in the "this is absolutely not a mental illness and how dare you say otherwise" camp agree that trans kids should be evaluated by psychologists before transitioning? 

 

[RCon]

Do people in the "this is absolutely not a mental illness and how dare you say otherwise" camp agree that trans kids should be evaluated by psychologists before transitioning? 

I don't know that I necessarily latch onto the word "psychologist", but I definitely agree with real, sustained therapy (with a qualified therapist*) as a first step / prerequisite.

* And yes, I know that "qualified" is a pretty subjective term.  I've known psychologists and psychiatrists that were quacks, therapists that are fantastic, therapists with no business talking to their own family about the weather, and everything in between.

 

[shader]

Don’t do this. You’re just making yourself look foolish. 
Im no medical expert and I don’t pretend to be. I read the same stuff that’s available to everyone here. I just linked 3 more sources, and I got lazy, I could have linked 20 or 50. They all say the same thing: the suicides are caused by stigma and rejection. The suicides are prevented by access to the hormones and medical treatment. You want to fight this go ahead. But it doesn’t make you look very smart. And attacking me over it is silly. 

Tim, no one knows why the suicides are happening.  It’s different in every case.  These are mentally damaged people and the reasons why they commit suicide vary. To make a blanket assertion that they are happening because of stigma and rejection, (in the most tolerant trans environment in the history of the world) is a preposterous claim that you’ll need to back up with evidence.

 

[timschochet]

Tim, no one knows why the suicides are happening.  It’s different in every case.  These are mentally damaged people and the reasons why they commit suicide vary. To make a blanket assertion that they are happening because of stigma and rejection, (in the most tolerant trans environment in the history of the world) is a preposterous claim that you’ll need to back up with evidence.

Hi Shader I’m returning to this thread to respond to you. I’m going to try to have a different attitude about this and be less passionate- hopefully that will keep me from writing stuff I will regret: 

In any case here is what happened: I googled the question: “why are trans teenagers committing suicide?” About 20 links came up on the first page alone. I opened several of them and they all said the same thing: because of stigma and rejection. Some of these links were, admittedly, sources that were quite obviously pursuing a pro-trans agenda. Others were more neutral: medical associations, UCLA, psychological associations, etc. Several of these sources cited studies. A few of these I linked here, and they were derided as “surveys” 

So from reading all of this, some of which I linked here, I reached the conclusion that the suicides are largely caused by stigma and rejection. In addition, some of the sites I opened reported studies (surveys?) that asserted that acceptance of trans, and access to medicine such as hormones to help along the transition, actually REDUCED the chances of suicide. So I reached that conclusion as well. I must admit that I intuitively believed both of these things to be true already because they make common sense to me. So if you want to call what I did confirmation bias, fine. But I will repeat that I didn’t encounter any link that reached an opposite conclusion. They all said pretty much the same thing, 

I posted some of the links here, first one, then 3 more. I invited people to Google the question themselves. I was attacked and insulted; I attacked and insulted in kind (which I now regret). I was also, rather bizarrely IMO, called a compulsive liar. I’m not lying about any of this; I have offered my opinion based on what I have read. I certainly am no expert on this subject; I read stuff and if it makes sense to me I repeat it. I try to be informed as possible.

So I urge you to do the same as I did: Google the question: “why are tran teenagers committing suicide?” Read some or all of the links. Consider the arguments, facts, and studies contained within. And then draw your own conclusions. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

Do people in the "this is absolutely not a mental illness and how dare you say otherwise" camp agree that trans kids should be evaluated by psychologists before transitioning? 

That is a great counter question, and point taken.  

IMO it should be part of the process.  I do agree with fatguy's posts and they echo how I feel that mental health is being talked about in these threads.   That said, even if they don't specifically have gender dysphoria, it would take mental health professionals to determine that.  Besides that, we have to be honest about the high rates of suicide, depression, not being accepted by family, etc.  that I think it should be a mandatory part of the equation - at the very least before any sort of hormone/surgery is in the picture.  

 

[timschochet]

Do people in the "this is absolutely not a mental illness and how dare you say otherwise" camp agree that trans kids should be evaluated by psychologists before transitioning? 

Yes. I do, and I regret some of things I wrote before about mental illness. I have little understanding of mental Inness (despite the fact that I have a few close loved ones who have suffered and died from it). My reaction was based on a strong concern that labeling trans as a “mental illness” added to the stigma and rejection that I believe causes the high suicide rate, as it certainly did in the past for gay teens. I still don’t think that is an unreasonable concern, but I haven’t been able to find any evidence to back it up. The evidence that I thought I found, I misunderstood. 
 

But of course these kids are troubled and of course they should undergo psychological evaluation and help all throughout the process. 

 

[bigbottom]

That is a great counter question, and point taken.  

IMO it should be part of the process.  I do agree with fatguy's posts and they echo how I feel that mental health is being talked about in these threads.   That said, even if they don't specifically have gender dysphoria, it would take mental health professionals to determine that.  Besides that, we have to be honest about the high rates of suicide, depression, not being accepted by family, etc.  that I think it should be a mandatory part of the equation - at the very least before any sort of hormone/surgery is in the picture.  

I think mental health consults prior to medical intervention is a good idea, even if not legally required. I think it’s important to ensure that the desire for medical intervention arises from gender dysphoria and not some other issue or cause. 

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Hi Shader I’m returning to this thread to respond to you. I’m going to try to have a different attitude about this and be less passionate- hopefully that will keep me from writing stuff I will regret: 

In any case here is what happened: I googled the question: “why are trans teenagers committing suicide?”

My forehead is now bruised from slamming it into my desk.  Thanks.

 

[timschochet]

My forehead is now bruised from slamming it into my desk.  Thanks.

I’m sorry you’re frustrated by this. I didn’t think what I did there was unreasonable. 

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I’m sorry you’re frustrated by this. I didn’t think what I did there was unreasonable. 

It's two unrelated things:

1) Trans issues are uniquely polarizing.  For whatever reason, this particular topic generates less light and more heat than literally any other issue under discussion.  I don't even know what the runner-up would be, but I'm sure it's not close.  If there is any topic where a person is poorly served by "Let's Google it and let the first twenty results settle things," this is that topic.

2) You're getting really hung up on whether gender dysphoria shows up in the DSM-V or not, and it's causing you to make some easy and obvious mistakes.  Yes, transgender kids sometimes commit suicide, and their suicidal ideation often stems from stigma and/or social rejection.  That stigma has literally nothing to do with whether we treat GD as a mental illness.  The stigma we're talking about is caused by the fact that trans kids are very noticeably different at an age where being different is bad.  It's not more complicated than that.  If you weren't so invested in the "mental illness" angle that would be obvious to you.

 

[PhillipPhoto]

It's two unrelated things:

1) Trans issues are uniquely polarizing.  For whatever reason, this particular topic generates less light and more heat than literally any other issue under discussion.  I don't even know what the runner-up would be, but I'm sure it's not close.  If there is any topic where a person is poorly served by "Let's Google it and let the first twenty results settle things," this is that topic.

2) You're getting really hung up on whether gender dysphoria shows up in the DSM-V or not, and it's causing you to make some easy and obvious mistakes.  Yes, transgender kids sometimes commit suicide, and their suicidal ideation often stems from stigma and/or social rejection.  That stigma has literally nothing to do with whether we treat GD as a mental illness.  The stigma we're talking about is caused by the fact that trans kids are very noticeably different at an age where being different is bad.  It's not more complicated than that.  If you weren't so invested in the "mental illness" angle that would be obvious to you.

He knows. He switched his story to "labeled" which really means stigma or rejection. Best just to ignore his continued ignorance and faux outrage. Tomorrow it will be some other made us BS that comes flowing from his pie hole. 

 

[JIslander]

He knows. He switched his story to "labeled" which really means stigma or rejection. Best just to ignore his continued ignorance and faux outrage. Tomorrow it will be some other made us BS that comes flowing from his pie hole. 

Keep it classy Tony.

 

[timschochet]

It's two unrelated things:

1) Trans issues are uniquely polarizing.  For whatever reason, this particular topic generates less light and more heat than literally any other issue under discussion.  I don't even know what the runner-up would be, but I'm sure it's not close.  If there is any topic where a person is poorly served by "Let's Google it and let the first twenty results settle things," this is that topic.

2) You're getting really hung up on whether gender dysphoria shows up in the DSM-V or not, and it's causing you to make some easy and obvious mistakes.  Yes, transgender kids sometimes commit suicide, and their suicidal ideation often stems from stigma and/or social rejection.  That stigma has literally nothing to do with whether we treat GD as a mental illness.  The stigma we're talking about is caused by the fact that trans kids are very noticeably different at an age where being different is bad.  It's not more complicated than that.  If you weren't so invested in the "mental illness" angle that would be obvious to you.

Your first point is something I’ve already addressed this morning at some length. I’ll respectfully disagree with you and leave it at that. 

Your second point I mostly agree with; alive already admitted I made some mistakes in my earlier posts. I will however take issue with your assertion that it’s “being different at an age where different is bad”- I think it’s far more complicated than that, and the stigma is not simply coming from peers anyhow, but also from family members and society at large depending on the community in question. 

 

[squistion]

Keep it classy Tony.

Tony. That makes sense.

 

[timschochet]

Keep it classy Tony.

Is that who this alias is? That makes a lot of sense. 
In any event I sometimes wish I was as devious as I’m being made out to be. I’d make far less mistakes. 

 

[shader]

Hi Shader I’m returning to this thread to respond to you. I’m going to try to have a different attitude about this and be less passionate- hopefully that will keep me from writing stuff I will regret: 

In any case here is what happened: I googled the question: “why are trans teenagers committing suicide?” About 20 links came up on the first page alone. I opened several of them and they all said the same thing: because of stigma and rejection. Some of these links were, admittedly, sources that were quite obviously pursuing a pro-trans agenda. Others were more neutral: medical associations, UCLA, psychological associations, etc. Several of these sources cited studies. A few of these I linked here, and they were derided as “surveys” 

So from reading all of this, some of which I linked here, I reached the conclusion that the suicides are largely caused by stigma and rejection. In addition, some of the sites I opened reported studies (surveys?) that asserted that acceptance of trans, and access to medicine such as hormones to help along the transition, actually REDUCED the chances of suicide. So I reached that conclusion as well. I must admit that I intuitively believed both of these things to be true already because they make common sense to me. So if you want to call what I did confirmation bias, fine. But I will repeat that I didn’t encounter any link that reached an opposite conclusion. They all said pretty much the same thing, 

I posted some of the links here, first one, then 3 more. I invited people to Google the question themselves. I was attacked and insulted; I attacked and insulted in kind (which I now regret). I was also, rather bizarrely IMO, called a compulsive liar. I’m not lying about any of this; I have offered my opinion based on what I have read. I certainly am no expert on this subject; I read stuff and if it makes sense to me I repeat it. I try to be informed as possible.

So I urge you to do the same as I did: Google the question: “why are tran teenagers committing suicide?” Read some or all of the links. Consider the arguments, facts, and studies contained within. And then draw your own conclusions. 

Tim, you make fair points.  But I think there's a chance you're being a bit too black and white on this issue.  No one commits suicide for one reason.  So the idea that google can definitively settle this extremely complex issue, is mind-boggling, to me.

Make no mistake, there is decades long social movement that has completely changed the culture of our society - it started with acceptance of homosexuality, and has moved on to complete acceptance of trans, as if that's a natural and logical progression.  We're all well aware of this societal pressure, many actively promote it, many are bystanders, and a few actively reject it.

Because that pressure exists, there are a lot of people that seem to be promoting the idea that being trans is absolutely NOT a mental illness and that it's offensive and bigoted to think so - To me, this is an awful viewpoint to have, and is extremely bigoted against those with mental illnesses.  Trans people make up a very small portion of the population.  Individuals with mental illnesses make up a significant part of the population, yet the stigma against mental illness remains.  What's wrong with admitting that a male that thinks he's a female (when he's physically, biologically, genetically a male) has something wrong in his head?  A person in this scenario, ESPECIALLY A CHILD, needs all the mental help they can get before making a life-altering opinion.

A child that has gender dysphoria needs to be helped, not given blanket acceptance to be whatever they want to be.  Of course the parents should love them, no matter what, but if your 14 year old boy tells you he thinks he's a girl, you aren't a bad parent for not immediately accepting that and pumping him full of hormones and calling him a girl.  

BTW, I think on many topics, google is a fantastic place to search and gather info.  But on this one, maybe not so much.  The media doesn't accept the alternate viewpoint right now.  Hollywood is full of actors that literally abuse their children by raising them gender neutral, which, in my opinion, is playing into the confusion among teens.

I made this point in another thread - humans haven't suddenly gone about a dramatic evolutionary change that has caused a significant portion of adolescents to decide their biological gender isn't correct - it's a societal/mental issue.  

I have no proof to back it up, but I firmly believe that the promotion/acceptance of trans creates more trans kids (kids are already unbelievably confused as teenagers), and because trans does have a stigma in real life, this causes these kids a lot of problems and ultimately leads to more suicides. 

 

[shader]

Your first point is something I’ve already addressed this morning at some length. I’ll respectfully disagree with you and leave it at that. 

Your second point I mostly agree with; alive already admitted I made some mistakes in my earlier posts. I will however take issue with your assertion that it’s “being different at an age where different is bad”- I think it’s far more complicated than that, and the stigma is not simply coming from peers anyhow, but also from family members and society at large depending on the community in question. 

There's no question that stigma exists in real life.  It's also not going anywhere.  If a 6'5 350 pound dude walks around in a dress, people are going to look/talk.  The stigma is real and isn't going anywhere. 

 

[chet]

I will also approach this issue in a different way by listing my goals in order:

1) Reduce suicides in trans-youth;

2) Reduce/eliminate transitioning therapy for teens who will later regret the decision because they were misdiagnosed; and

3) Wholeheartedly support and accept trans-youth who have been correctly diagnosed with GD.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Keep it classy Tony.

Ah, this makes sense if true.   Toned, down that MO of asking me questions I've answered just to laugh at the responses.  

 

[timschochet]

Tim, you make fair points.  But I think there's a chance you're being a bit too black and white on this issue.  No one commits suicide for one reason.  So the idea that google can definitively settle this extremely complex issue, is mind-boggling, to me.

Make no mistake, there is decades long social movement that has completely changed the culture of our society - it started with acceptance of homosexuality, and has moved on to complete acceptance of trans, as if that's a natural and logical progression.  We're all well aware of this societal pressure, many actively promote it, many are bystanders, and a few actively reject it.

Because that pressure exists, there are a lot of people that seem to be promoting the idea that being trans is absolutely NOT a mental illness and that it's offensive and bigoted to think so - To me, this is an awful viewpoint to have, and is extremely bigoted against those with mental illnesses.  Trans people make up a very small portion of the population.  Individuals with mental illnesses make up a significant part of the population, yet the stigma against mental illness remains.  What's wrong with admitting that a male that thinks he's a female (when he's physically, biologically, genetically a male) has something wrong in his head?  A person in this scenario, ESPECIALLY A CHILD, needs all the mental help they can get before making a life-altering opinion.

A child that has gender dysphoria needs to be helped, not given blanket acceptance to be whatever they want to be.  Of course the parents should love them, no matter what, but if your 14 year old boy tells you he thinks he's a girl, you aren't a bad parent for not immediately accepting that and pumping him full of hormones and calling him a girl.  

BTW, I think on many topics, google is a fantastic place to search and gather info.  But on this one, maybe not so much.  The media doesn't accept the alternate viewpoint right now.  Hollywood is full of actors that literally abuse their children by raising them gender neutral, which, in my opinion, is playing into the confusion among teens.

I made this point in another thread - humans haven't suddenly gone about a dramatic evolutionary change that has caused a significant portion of adolescents to decide their biological gender isn't correct - it's a societal/mental issue.  

I have no proof to back it up, but I firmly believe that the promotion/acceptance of trans creates more trans kids (kids are already unbelievably confused as teenagers), and because trans does have a stigma in real life, this causes these kids a lot of problems and ultimately leads to more suicides. 

Thanks for the response. Several points: 

1. I don’t think that regarding trans as a mental illness is in itself a sign of bigotry. I think there is plenty of bigotry out there, some of which has shown up in this thread, but I will say no more about this subject. 

2. The problem with your “what’s wrong” question is your use of the word “wrong”- “something wrong in the head”. Obviously a kid who wants to transition is a troubled kid. But when we say there’s something wrong in the head, or use the word “illness”, we are implying that this is a negative which needs to be corrected. I don’t believe that trans is a negative which needs to be corrected, so I don’t see it as a wrong or an illness. And as I wrote, I believe the assumptions implied in these terms contribute to the stigma and rejection. 
 

3. You can’t prove your last point, and I can’t disprove it either (at least, I haven’t seen any thing that would disprove it.) But that being said I feel you are completely wrong here. It’s really not fathomable to me that a person could be talked into transitioning because of general acceptance of transitioning- I can see how a teen might be willing to be more comfortable if society around him is more comfortable, but as far as inspiring him to do it- that’s an alien idea to me. And it suggests that most kids who transition really don’t want to and should be talked out if it, I reject this premise. 

 

[timschochet]

I will also approach this issue in a different way by listing my goals in order:

1) Reduce suicides in trans-youth;

2) Reduce/eliminate transitioning therapy for teens who will later regret the decision because they were misdiagnosed; and

3) Wholeheartedly support and accept trans-youth who have been correctly diagnosed with GD.

My concern is that your second goal could easily work against your first goal. Specifically, an attempt to talk teens out of transitioning, or even worse, remove their legal ability to do so, will only increase the chances of self-harm and suicide. 

 

[supermike80]

My concern is that your second goal could easily work against your first goal. Specifically, an attempt to talk teens out of transitioning, or even worse, remove their legal ability to do so, will only increase the chances of self-harm and suicide. 

I swear I thought you said you'd bow out of this conversation 

 

[timschochet]

I swear I thought you said you'd bow out of this conversation 

I did. And now I’ve returned. Hopefully that’s Ok with you? 

 

[Boston]

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/landonmion/2022/04/15/massachusetts-school-teachers-sued-after-allegedly-encouraging-students-to-alter-gender-identity-n2605951

 

[The Big Donkey]

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/landonmion/2022/04/15/massachusetts-school-teachers-sued-after-allegedly-encouraging-students-to-alter-gender-identity-n2605951

"The suit asserts that one defendant, former middle school librarian Jordan Funke, publicly expressed to the school community that they were "nonbinary," told students to use gender-neutral pronouns on each other and encouraged children to "experiment with alternate gender identities without notifying parents or obtaining parental consent."

Funke is also accused of telling incoming sixth-graders in 2019 to make videos that featured their gender identity and preferred pronouns. The child of two of the parents involved in the suit, then 11, was among those students. Funke had not sought parental consent, according to the complaint."

seems wrong and perhaps illegal.

 

[Boston]

"The suit asserts that one defendant, former middle school librarian Jordan Funke, publicly expressed to the school community that they were "nonbinary," told students to use gender-neutral pronouns on each other and encouraged children to "experiment with alternate gender identities without notifying parents or obtaining parental consent."

Funke is also accused of telling incoming sixth-graders in 2019 to make videos that featured their gender identity and preferred pronouns. The child of two of the parents involved in the suit, then 11, was among those students. Funke had not sought parental consent, according to the complaint."

seems wrong and perhaps illegal.

Funke is the school Librarian so it gets even creepier if that is possible.

 

[timschochet]

Funke is the school Librarian so it gets even creepier if that is possible.

Yeah let’s wait for the facts to come out. If I had to guess what he did is likely far more benign and well meaning. 
In any case, while what he did might warrant firing, a lawsuit seems totally ridiculous. You’ve got to show real harm. And there’s no real harm in anything he said or did, even if all the charges are true. 

 

[Boston]

Yeah let’s wait for the facts to come out. If I had to guess what he did is likely far more benign and well meaning. 
In any case, while what he did might warrant firing, a lawsuit seems totally ridiculous. You’ve got to show real harm. And there’s no real harm in anything he said or did, even if all the charges are true. 

You are truly amazing...let's look at this scenario...a kid gets home from school:

Mom: How was school today?

Child: Great, just another normal day.

Mom: Tell me about it

Child: Well, I got an A on my my science project, we played volleyball during gym and I have a ton of math homework...oh, I almost forgot...the School Librarian asked me to make a video and discuss my gender identity and also said I should not tell you and Dad...whoops!

Mom: That's great Dear...now let's get ready for basketball practice. 

You seriously think that is normal?

 

[The Big Donkey]

Yeah let’s wait for the facts to come out. If I had to guess what he did is likely far more benign and well meaning. 
In any case, while what he did might warrant firing, a lawsuit seems totally ridiculous. You’ve got to show real harm. And there’s no real harm in anything he said or did, even if all the charges are true. 

is he the preferred pronoun for Jordan?