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LGBT, LGBTQ, LGBT+ Thread (1 Viewer)

Boston said:
You are truly amazing...let's look at this scenario...a kid gets home from school:

Mom: How was school today?

Child: Great, just another normal day.

Mom: Tell me about it

Child: Well, I got an A on my my science project, we played volleyball during gym and I have a ton of math homework...oh, I almost forgot...the School Librarian asked me to make a video and discuss my gender identity and also said I should not tell you and Dad...whoops!

Mom: That's great Dear...now let's get ready for basketball practice. 

You seriously think that is normal?
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Nope. If that’s all true and exactly what happened, it’s not normal and the librarian should be fired. But a lawsuit is silly.

And I doubt that’s what happened. 

 
timschochet said:
Yeah let’s wait for the facts to come out. If I had to guess what he did is likely far more benign and well meaning. 
In any case, while what he did might warrant firing, a lawsuit seems totally ridiculous. You’ve got to show real harm. And there’s no real harm in anything he said or did, even if all the charges are true. 
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LOL.  Of course on this story.  Every other story is let's jump to throw out accusations immediately

 
@timschochet I swear to god you must be trolling all of us.  You cannot be this obstinate in the face of facts and dialog here.   You are absolutely all over the place.  In one post Google is fine, in the next post we need 3 Medical Studies and 100 experts to weigh in before we can "really be certain" - all for the same subject.

I feel you're doing it because you're ego won't let you admit the truth of what's going on here.

 
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BladeRunner said:
@timschochet I swear to god you must be trolling all of us.  You cannot be this obstinate in the face of facts and dialog here.   You are absolutely all over the place.  In one post Google is fine, in the next post we need 3 Medical Studies and 100 experts to weigh in before we can "really be certain" - all for the same subject.

I feel you're doing it because you're ego won't let you admit the truth of what's going on here.
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Agreed. I used to think that is what he was doing, and then I became convinced that he wasn't, but his behavior lately is classic t-word behavior, as I refuse to believe he is that obtuse as to his own hypocrisy and double standards.  He probably has a good laugh about this every day. 

 
BladeRunner said:
@timschochet I swear to god you must be trolling all of us.  You cannot be this obstinate in the face of facts and dialog here.   You are absolutely all over the place.  In one post Google is fine, in the next post we need 3 Medical Studies and 100 experts to weigh in before we can "really be certain" - all for the same subject.

I feel you're doing it because you're ego won't let you admit the truth of what's going on here.
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its simply about what fits his narrative and worldview.  He doesn't care about things like facts or data.

 
Ghost Rider said:
Agreed. I used to think that is what he was doing, and then I became convinced that he wasn't, but his behavior lately is classic t-word behavior, as I refuse to believe he is that obtuse as to his own hypocrisy and double standards.  He probably has a good laugh about this every day. 
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I’m sorry you think this. I’ve followed your posts on this thread and while I disagree with much of it, I think you’re thoughtful and caring and you honestly want what’s best for these kids. I actually think that’s true of the majority of those who disagree with me on this topic, 

Im not trolling. My viewpoint on these issues, while apparently not very popular in this thread, is shared by a whole lot of people. They’re not trolling either. 

 
John123 said:
its simply about what fits his narrative and worldview.  He doesn't care about things like facts or data.
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This isn’t true. What facts and data have I ignored? Are there facts and data that contradict my viewpoint on this stuff? If so please make me aware of it and I will honestly be grateful to you. 

 
BladeRunner said:
@timschochet I swear to god you must be trolling all of us.  You cannot be this obstinate in the face of facts and dialog here.   You are absolutely all over the place.  In one post Google is fine, in the next post we need 3 Medical Studies and 100 experts to weigh in before we can "really be certain" - all for the same subject.

I feel you're doing it because you're ego won't let you admit the truth of what's going on here.
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I don’t understand where I contradicted myself. Can you please be more specific? I really am willing to listen. 

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
LOL.  Of course on this story.  Every other story is let's jump to throw out accusations immediately
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I have made accusations in the past based on stories that turned out not to be accurate. I regret that now and I haven’t done this in quite some time. I don’t think it’s wise to do, and not for this story either. Don’t you agree? 

 
BladeRunner said:
@timschochet I swear to god you must be trolling all of us.  You cannot be this obstinate in the face of facts and dialog here.   You are absolutely all over the place.  In one post Google is fine, in the next post we need 3 Medical Studies and 100 experts to weigh in before we can "really be certain" - all for the same subject.

I feel you're doing it because you're ego won't let you admit the truth of what's going on here.
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Also what the the true thing of what’s going on here that my ego won’t allow me to admit? Please be specific, I don’t understand what you mean. Thank you. 

 
Last night I had dinner with one of my daughters and she said I was being a bigot for suggesting that trans females should not be allowed to participate in female sports, and that parental consent should usually be required for teenagers who seek medical treatment to transition. 

I am relating this only to point out that my views on these issues are not all necessarily on one “side” and I don’t believe I’m being extremists, whatever you guys on one side, and my daughter on the other, might believe. 

 
timschochet said:
This isn’t true. What facts and data have I ignored? Are there facts and data that contradict my viewpoint on this stuff? If so please make me aware of it and I will honestly be grateful to you. 
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You know what isn't true?  You bowing out of this thread.  Remember, it makes you too emotional.  You admitted you approach this more from an emotional standpoint than a rational, data based standpoint.  I'll pass.

 
John123 said:
You know what isn't true?  You bowing out of this thread.  Remember, it makes you too emotional.  You admitted you approach this more from an emotional standpoint than a rational, data based standpoint.  I'll pass.
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Sorry you’ll pass. I really am making an effort to be less emotional on these issues. That’s why, when you accused me of ignoring data and facts, I politely asked you to show me what I was ignoring. I regret that you won’t take me up on this. 

 
timschochet said:
Sorry you’ll pass. I really am making an effort to be less emotional on these issues. That’s why, when you accused me of ignoring data and facts, I politely asked you to show me what I was ignoring. I regret that you won’t take me up on this. 
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I regret that you constantly go back on commitments you make in threads.    :shrug:

 
kodycutter said:
that's behind a paywall, is this about Jordan the librarian?
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No it's not about a librarian.  and I had no issues getting to that article from my desktop or my phone.  make sure you're not misinterpreting an ad for a subscription to the paper as a pay wall.  There is a close button on that ad.

 
timschochet said:
Im not trolling. My viewpoint on these issues, while apparently not very popular in this thread, is shared by a whole lot of people. They’re not trolling either. 
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At least you have backpedaled from your viewpoint being shared by "medical experts and literature" to "a whole lot of people".

 
matuski said:
At least you have backpedaled from your viewpoint being shared by "medical experts and literature" to "a whole lot of people".
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I wrote that earlier because several of the people I discovered on Google appeared to have a medical background, did appear to be medical experts, and there did appear to be plenty of literature, some of which I linked. I still believe that to be largely true, but I recognize that you have a different interpretation and I certainly don’t have your expertise about reading this sort of material. 

 
timschochet said:
I wrote that earlier because several of the people I discovered on Google appeared to have a medical background, did appear to be medical experts, and there did appear to be plenty of literature, some of which I linked. I still believe that to be largely true, but I recognize that you have a different interpretation and I certainly don’t have your expertise about reading this sort of material. 
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It is a simple lesson that I have learned the hard way:

Don't make claims about data and literature you aren't equipped/prepared to show your work on.

 
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matuski said:
It is a simple lesson that I have learned the hard way:

Don't make claims about data and literature you aren't equipped/prepared to show your work on.
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Thank you. I will try to keep that in mind for the future. 
 

It’s also true that, if somebody asserts that you are ignoring facts and evidence, that same accuser should provide the facts and evidence that he is accusing you of ignoring. Don’t you agree? 

 
@matuski you have demonstrated how the facts and evidence I attempted to show that the high rate of suicides in trans teens is caused by stigma and lack of acceptance by peers and family to be flawed; you showed that the stuff I presented really didn’t prove my case. I will accept that I didn’t do a very good job of this. My question to you is: do you have or know of any facts or evidence that suggests an alternative explanation? 

 
John123 said:
Why would we want to involve parents in the issues their kids are dealing with?

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/04/14/metro/four-parents-sue-ludlow-public-schools-policy-that-affirms-transgender-children/

The schools know better. 
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The child said they were depressed and needed help but weren’t sure how to talk to their parents. Three days later, the teacher spoke with Silvestri, and they agreed to work together, with the parents scheduling therapy for their child and the teacher giving the child craft activities after school, the filings say.

A few days later, Silvestri sent an e-mail to the School Committee, Monette, Gazda, and her child’s teachers, asking them not to have private discussions with the child about their mental health, the suit says.
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Wow.

 
timschochet said:
No this is a different lawsuit. If I’m reading this correctly they are suing the school for not informing them that their kids wanted to transition. 
That’s a thorny issue. I honestly don’t know where I stand on this. 
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read the article on another site.   ludlow public (Massachusetts) where Jordan was librarian at Baird Middle School.    looks like it may be related.

 
timschochet said:
Last night I had dinner with one of my daughters and she said I was being a bigot for suggesting that trans females should not be allowed to participate in female sports, and that parental consent should usually be required for teenagers who seek medical treatment to transition. 

I am relating this only to point out that my views on these issues are not all necessarily on one “side” and I don’t believe I’m being extremists, whatever you guys on one side, and my daughter on the other, might believe. 
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Seems the problem is that gender is non-binary, but sports, for the most part, are.  How about we have trans divisions and we work to create acceptance of those folks?  I get that some trans-athletes might prefer to be thought of as entirely fitting in their transferred category with no distinctions whatsoever, but the fact is there are remaining biological distinctions not able to be erased with a surgeon's knife or an endocrinologist's syringe.  That will not change.  Let us celebrate the trans athlete for who and what they are, their own category of athlete.

 
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Ditkaless Wonders said:
Seems the problem is that gender is non-binary, but sports, for the most part, are.  How about we have trans divisions and we work to create acceptance of those folks?  I get that some trans-athletes might prefer to be thought of as entirely fitting in their transferred category with no distinctions whatsoever, but the fact is there are remaining biological distinctions not able to be erased with a surgeon's knife or an endocrinologist's syringe.  That will not change.  Let us celebrate the trans athlete for who and what they are, their own category of athlete.
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The problem with this is the insistence by trans women that they are women. This is the crux of it all. Solve that and you've solved the problem. But you cannot solve that problem. The only thing the activist will accept is the being called a real woman. 

That's the whole thread in a nutshell. That's what we're now debating. Your simplicity has been labelled bigoted by a not-small amount of the activist left. Not here for that, but elsewhere. 

 
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rockaction said:
The problem with this is the insistence by trans women that they are women. This is the crux of it all. Solve that and you've solved the problem. But you cannot solve that problem. The only thing the activist will accept is the being called a real woman. 

That's the whole thread in a nutshell. That's what we're now debating. Your simplicity has been labelled bigoted. Sorry. You played a nice game, though. 
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If there was a way to utter the safe word that paused the RPG for a moment and allowed everyone to acknowledge to trans women are male just like you and me, I think 95% of the issues around trans identities would go away tomorrow.  Sports, prisons, locker rooms, etc. would all be resolved amicably in 30 seconds or so and we could all go back to mostly agreeing on this topic.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
If there was a way to utter the safe word that paused the RPG for a moment and allowed everyone to acknowledge to trans women are male just like you and me, I think 95% of the issues around trans identities would go away tomorrow.  Sports, prisons, locker rooms, etc. would all be resolved amicably in 30 seconds or so and we could all go back to mostly agreeing on this topic.
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Agree 100%...personally, I don't know anyone who cares if a guy wants to live his life like a female...none...yet those same people do get very worked up about men competing with women in sports or their 10 year old Daughter being in a public bathroom with a man...unfortunately it looks like an all or nothing game with many in the trans community and their activist supporters and due to that there is going to be a lot of friction when there doesn't need to be.

 
Boston said:
Agree 100%...personally, I don't know anyone who cares if a guy wants to live his life like a female...none...yet those same people do get very worked up about men competing with women in sports or their 10 year old Daughter being in a public bathroom with a man...unfortunately it looks like an all or nothing game with many in the trans community and their activist supporters and due to that there is going to be a lot of friction when there doesn't need to be.
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I don’t 100% agree with this POV- I have a difference with you on the bathroom issues in particular- but I understand and sympathize with it, and with you. 

 
timschochet said:
@matuski you have demonstrated how the facts and evidence I attempted to show that the high rate of suicides in trans teens is caused by stigma and lack of acceptance by peers and family to be flawed; you showed that the stuff I presented really didn’t prove my case. I will accept that I didn’t do a very good job of this. My question to you is: do you have or know of any facts or evidence that suggests an alternative explanation? 
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I wasn't a part of your debate on that topic, and no - I am not aware of any literature on the topic.

I just happened to come into the conversation and that was the first post I saw.  I get frustrated that sites like the one you linked to even exist.  

 
matuski said:
I wasn't a part of your debate on that topic, and no - I am not aware of any literature on the topic.

I just happened to come into the conversation and that was the first post I saw.  I get frustrated that sites like the one you linked to even exist.  
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OK thank you. I have also not been able to find any literature which either contradicts what I posted or provides an alternative explanation. 
 

Therefore I am going to continue to make the following assumptions: 

1. The main reason that there is such a high rate of suicides among trans teens is because they are stigmatized and rejected by family, friends, and society at large. 

2. The best way to prevent the suicides is not to try to talk these kids out of transitioning but to encourage them to go through with it and to provide medical aid to help them. 

I fully realize that the second point especially is controversial, and I’m willing to reconsider it if someone presents evidence to the contrary. But that’s how I see things as they currently stand. 

 
timschochet said:
OK thank you. I have also not been able to find any literature which either contradicts what I posted or provides an alternative explanation. 
 

Therefore I am going to continue to make the following assumptions: 

1. The main reason that there is such a high rate of suicides among trans teens is because they are stigmatized and rejected by family, friends, and society at large. 

2. The best way to prevent the suicides is not to try to talk these kids out of transitioning but to encourage them to go through with it and to provide medical aid to help them. 

I fully realize that the second point especially is controversial, and I’m willing to reconsider it if someone presents evidence to the contrary. But that’s how I see things as they currently stand. 
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Alright, I took a quick look at some studies and I am biased in that I'm trying to disprove your point 1.  I suspect that the mental illness predates the stigmatization and here is my cherry picked result:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6252073/

53.3% of participants reported ever having self-injured in their lifetime. Past-year NSSI was reported by 22.3% of the sample and did not significantly differ based on gender identity. In logistic regression models, past-year NSSI was associated with younger age and felt stigma (perceived or anticipated rejection), but not enacted stigma (actual experiences of discrimination), and with gender dysphoria. Efforts to address the high rates of NSSI among transgender people should aim to reduce felt stigma and gender dysphoria, and promote transgender congruence.
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https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/self-injury/symptoms-causes/syc-20350950

There's no one single or simple cause that leads someone to self-injure. In general, self-injury may result from:

Poor coping skills. Nonsuicidal self-injury is usually the result of an inability to cope in healthy ways with psychological pain.

Difficulty managing emotions. The person has a hard time regulating, expressing or understanding emotions. The mix of emotions that triggers self-injury is complex. For instance, there may be feelings of worthlessness, loneliness, panic, anger, guilt, rejection, self-hatred or confused sexuality
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I only read the abstract and introduction to the study but it aligns with my preconceived notions. And while they are studying nonsuicidal self-injury, I believe it's fair to draw parallels between that and suicide.  Transgenders have abnormally high rates of both.

Minority stress theory has been proposed as a way to understand the health disparities experienced by transgender populations (Hendricks and Testa, 2012). This theory posits that stigma associated with minority identity confers additional chronic stress, which contributes to negative health outcomes (Meyer, 2003). Minority stress occurs along a continuum from distal processes, known as enacted stigma, which include discrimination, victimization, or harassment, to proximal processes, which include expecting rejection, concealment of identity, and internalized stigma (Meyer, 2003).
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Coping styles have been shown to vary by transition status and to affect mental health, specifically depression and anxiety (Budge et al., 2013). Budge and colleagues (2013) found that compared to participants in later stages of transition, transgender individuals in earlier stages were more likely to rely on avoidant coping strategies, which had a negative influence on their mental health. While gender transition refers to a process that may involve various dimensions including social changes (name, pronouns, hairstyle, clothing) and/or medical interventions (hormones, surgeries), in this study transition status was assessed using a single item that reflected to what degree participants had made changes to live as a transgender person. Their study highlights that throughout the process of transgender identity development, transgender individuals’ coping strategies may vary, thus identity-related variables should be examined in relation to NSSI.
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timschochet said:
 1. The main reason that there is such a high rate of suicides among trans teens is because they are stigmatized and rejected by family, friends, and society at large. 
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Which was why there was a higher rate of suicide among gay men and lesbians in the 70s, 80s and 90s not because they were mentally ill as some believe (and still believe). 

 
squistion said:
Which was why there was a higher rate of suicide among gay men and lesbians in the 70s, 80s and 90s not because they were mentally ill as some believe (and still believe). 
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https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57739132

Lesbian, gay and bisexual people are more than twice as likely as heterosexuals to have a long-term mental health condition, an analysis of NHS data suggests.

They are also more likely to drink heavily and smoke, the report says.

About 2% of people said they were lesbian, gay or bisexual in the 2011-18 Health Survey for England.

The findings "confirm well-established health inequalities for LGB people", say rights groups.

Of the adults surveyed over the eight years, 1,132 or 2%, identified as lesbian, gay or bisexual. Participants weren't asked about trans status or gender identity, but this is being considered for future surveys.

About 16% of LGB respondents reported having a long-term mental or behavioural disorder, compared with 6% of heterosexual adults.
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I do agree with you that inability to live their life openly in past generations would be a contributing factor to unhappiness.  I assume the suicide rate has gone down in the last 20 years.

 
squistion said:
Which was why there was a higher rate of suicide among gay men and lesbians in the 70s, 80s and 90s not because they were mentally ill as some believe (and still believe). 
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Did they have higher suicide rates back in the day?  Maybe they did but I've yet to see any of you guys back up your assertions.  Instead, we get blanket statements and we're just supposed to believe sans evidence?

You're going to have to do some work here.   People who attempt suicide are - by definition - mentally ill.  There could be many reasons why they did, but blanket statements like yours without evidence aren't helping.

What you're doing is pushing a narrative.

 
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Thank you @Caveman. I do think you’re cherry picking in that the data you presented really doesn’t prove that the suicides are NOT caused by stigma- but then, I cherry-picked as well. Admittedly the evidence out there is not 100% clear and it probably never will be. But certain assumptions can be made IMO. 

 
BladeRunner said:
Did they have higher suicide rates back in the day?  Maybe they did but I've yet to see any of you guys back up your assertions.  Instead, we get blanket statements and we're just supposed to believe sans evidence?

You're going to have to do some work here.   People who attempt suicide are - by definition - mentally ill.  There could be many reasons why they did, but blanket statements like yours without evidence aren't helping.

What you're doing is pushing a narrative.
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Much of the info about higher rates of gay suicides in the past, and their causes,  can be found here: 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_among_LGBT_youth

 
BladeRunner said:
Did they have higher suicide rates back in the day?  Maybe they did but I've yet to see any of you guys back up your assertions.  Instead, we get blanket statements and we're just supposed to believe sans evidence?

You're going to have to do some work here.   People who attempt suicide are - by definition - mentally ill.  There could be many reasons why they did, but blanket statements like yours without evidence aren't helping.

What you're doing is pushing a narrative.
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Question for you @BladeRunner- if the evidence showed (clearly, to your eyes) that the rate of teen suicides among trans was caused primarily by stigma and rejection, and that these suicides could be reduced by encouragement and access to medical treatment that would help these kids transition, would you them be in favor of giving these kids that encouragement and medical care? 

 
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Just to add to my last post: if I was presented with clear evidence that encouraging and helping these kids transition was actually INCREASING the chances of suicide, as some here have suggested, I would switch my position and be against doing so. 

 
timschochet said:
Question for you @BladeRunner- if the evidence showed (clearly, to your eyes) that the rate of teen suicides among trans was caused primarily by stigma and rejection, and that these suicides could be reduced by encouragement and access to medical treatment that would help these kids transition, would you them be in favor of living these kids that encouragement and medical care? 
Click to expand...


I've always been for people getting the help they need. However, I feel that transition surgery/chemicals is an adult decision and that we need to wait for teens to reach legal age before they make such a life-altering decision.

That doesn't mean I'm against them living their lives as they see fit, it just means I don't want minors doing anything until they are adults. We do this for a whole host of things - alcohol, cigarette, military service, etc....  There is no reason I feel they can't wait, IMO.

 
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timschochet said:
Much of the info about higher rates of gay suicides in the past, and their causes,  can be found here: 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_among_LGBT_youth
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Thanks, Tim.  I'm having a hard time finding the suicide trend over the years from the 70's on.  Are you able to point me to the right spot?

Specifically, I'm interested in the suicide rates from the 1970's on.  Has it gone up?  has it gone down?  About the same? 

Just doing some cursory research and I see nothing to back up that suicides were higher for LGB members in the 70's, 80's and 90's.  In fact, not even sure there is data from the 70's or 80's.  Could be there but I just can't find it.

 
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BladeRunner said:
Did they have higher suicide rates back in the day?  Maybe they did but I've yet to see any of you guys back up your assertions.  Instead, we get blanket statements and we're just supposed to believe sans evidence?

You're going to have to do some work here.   People who attempt suicide are - by definition - mentally ill.  There could be many reasons why they did, but blanket statements like yours without evidence aren't helping.

What you're doing is pushing a narrative.
Click to expand...


If you honestly question that given the hatred and stigma against LGBT folks in 60s and 70s, then there is nothing more I can say.  

 
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