Liberals, how should education be handled? (2 Viewers)

[Ramblin Wreck]

I’m not trolling. But I already offered my arguments , and you rejected them as “complete nonsense” without ever bothering to explain why. Now you ask me to come up with new reasons and if I don’t its proof that I’m trolling. 

I got these from you yesterday.  Did I miss some?

Look I don’t trust it.  - Not exactly a reason
Socialization is as important an element as education in primary school. - There is plenty of socialization in the home school world.  There are co-ops, plenty of organized events like park days, kids volunteer at places like churches or library, kids play sports, etc...  This is an ignorant stereotype of homeschooling.
The reason we have public schools is because we don’t trust parents to teach proper socialization. - LOL come on Tim.  This is not the reason we have public schools
Those that follow standard curriculum are better, but the socialization part is still missing. - Addressed socialization above
I don’t want children believing that homosexuality is evil.  - WTF?  You think home schooling teaches that?  Parents can teach their children whatever they want regardless of schooling.  I promise you that you will hear gay slurs way way more frequently from public school kids than homeschool kids and it's not close
I don’t want children believing that climate change is a hoax, or that evolution is a hoax, or that the Earth is 6,000 years old. - LOL what do you think happens in a homeschool environment?  You really have no idea because you haven't done it and don't know anything about it beyond a couple of conversations.

I don’t believe this at all. Is it possible that a home schooled child could have outside activities that provide him or her the equivalent of the socialization process provided in a group education environment? Of course it’s possible. Is it likely? Educators say no, and I have no reason to disagree with them. 

This shows how little you know.  Most home schooled kids are involved in co-ops and are educated in group environments.   There's no need to continue going back and forth about the socialization when you think you are the expert with no experience.   Better yet, please provide me some examples that show home schooled children lack socialization.   Because I've been directly involved with large homeschool groups in four different cities across three different states and my experience is the exact opposite.

 

[timschochet]

I’m actually going to stop talking about this now. Not because it isn’t an interesting discussion, but because, now that HF and Proninja convinced me to change my mind and I agree with them that it should be the choice of the parent, it’s no longer a political question for me. I don’t want to drag down this thread any further with discussing things that aren’t related to the political questions. 

 

[timschochet]

1. With climate change I trust the scientists. With medicine I trust the doctors. With education I trust the educators. I don’t feel qualified to say what should or should not be emphasized, and I don’t think most of us who haven’t studied education are. 

2. That being said, I think most of it should be standardized. There’s no reason why a first grader in Newport Beach, California, shouldn’t be receiving the same basic education as a first grader in Boise, Idaho or New York City. 

3. Eliminate tax write offs for private religious schools. 

So, revised. Interested to see what people think of my first 3 points here. 

 

[timschochet]

It's still an interesting discussion, for what it's worth. Homeschooling and public schools both have a set of advantages and disadvantages. 

It is, but it belongs in the regular forum. 

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Homeschooling is no panacea, and we as society would be a LOT worse off if public schools didn't exist. 

No one has claimed otherwise.  Of course, society is better off because of the existence of public schools.  Some people can't afford to home school and some people aren't capable of home schooling and some people aren't interested in home schooling.  Public school is vital and provides an excellent service despite the negatives that exist.  

 

[timschochet]

I strongly agree with you on everything except I still think you're conflating "experts in public school education" with "experts in educational outcomes for different types of students in different environments"

But the question, at least in my first two points, is about public education. Therefore I want experts in public education to tell us what to do about it. 

 

[Henry Ford]

Oh there are definite bad home schooling parents.  There are bad public school parents and bad public school teachers too.  Lots of them actually.  I totally agree with your opinion from yesterday that it should be a choice.  But I'm also curious why those that think it's so bad think that way.  Most usually point to unsocialized or religion.  The socialization aspect has nothing to do with schooling and all about activities and experiences with other people.  

I’m no fan of religion, but my biggest issue with many home school parents is that they’re just not qualified to be teaching kids and won’t let someone else do it.  Kids without educated or highly motivated parents who aren’t self-motivated can end up with severely subpar educations. 

 

[Henry Ford]

So, revised. Interested to see what people think of my first 3 points here. 

So here’s the thing with 1.: education is different from exploration and practice. Yes, with medicine I trust doctors.  Yes, with car repair I trust mechanics.  Yes, with pornography I shy away from amateurs.  But teaching kids is a little different.  If the question was “cop administering first aid one-on-one vs one doctor in a hospital with a hundred patients being triaged” would you still pick a doctor?

Parents are already teachers. And uniquely situated to know how the child learns best if they’re good at it.  And individual or small group instruction can be worlds better than large group. 

Ideally, an educator would be one-on-one with a student teaching him or her - but that’s not an option.  And if parent one-on-one is a better option for some kids than educator thirty-five-on-one then it’s reasonable to take it. 

 

[Henry Ford]

Oh, I misread then. Absolutely. 

Oops, me too.  Well, my bad.

 

[Henry Ford]

But the question, at least in my first two points, is about public education. Therefore I want experts in public education to tell us what to do about it. 

Fair.  Mostly. With some exceptions. 

 

[OrtonToOlsen]

https://thinkprogress.org/americas-biggest-right-wing-homeschooling-group-has-been-networking-with-sanctioned-russians-1f2b5b5ad031/

Per wiki....HSLDA Home School Legal Defense Association (HSLDA) is a United States-based "nonprofit advocacy organization established to defend and advance the constitutional right of parents to direct the education of their children and to protect family freedoms." HSLDA describes itself on its website as a "Christian organization".

Now they're all cozy with the Russians.  

 

[Ilov80s]

https://thinkprogress.org/americas-biggest-right-wing-homeschooling-group-has-been-networking-with-sanctioned-russians-1f2b5b5ad031/

Per wiki....HSLDA Home School Legal Defense Association (HSLDA) is a United States-based "nonprofit advocacy organization established to defend and advance the constitutional right of parents to direct the education of their children and to protect family freedoms." HSLDA describes itself on its website as a "Christian organization".

Now they're all cozy with the Russians.  

And there is a link saying the right and the Russians started working together in 95? I will have to check this out. Seems like a major claim.