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Lions may cut Harrington (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Raging weasel
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Spartans Rule
Footballguy
The Fontes Era should have produced a Super Bowl. We had the best RB in NFL history, the best WRs in the league, decent QBs, two dominant O-linemen and lots of talent on defense. For that group to be going 9-7 and 10-6 every year was a ####### joke.Fontes getting the axe was more than deserved.
cstu
Footballguy
This is the silliest thing I've ever heard - cutting your QB that you drafted #3 overall only 3 years ago over a $3 million bonus? He was even close to bad last year with 19 TD's/12 INT's and a 77 QB rating.
This is not going to happen and they most likely trying to light a fire under Harrington the way the Chargers did with Brees by drafting Rivers. Having your job taken away is good incentive for players to kick their game up a notch.
The Man Who Met Andy Griffith
Footballguy
Like Scott Mitchell?
Spartans Rule
Footballguy
Harrington's 77 QB rating wasn't real impressive in a year where passing statistics were up around the league. He ranked 22nd in that stat.I've seen some things I like from Joey and I definitely think it's possible that he could pull a Brees next year and have a monster season.But on the other hand, I've seen a lot of things I don't like. Mooch has seen them too. If he doesn't think he can win with Joey, there's no point in dragging it out, paying the bonus to go through another season, setting the team back a year and then cutting him.This is the silliest thing I've ever heard - cutting your QB that you drafted #3 overall only 3 years ago over a $3 million bonus? He was even close to bad last year with 19 TD's/12 INT's and a 77 QB rating.
azgroover
Footballguy
Exactly. This team is ready for a playoff appearance if not a playoff run. To me, the one piece holding everything back has been the play of Harrington. Any of the veteran names that are being kicked around are going to make for decent stopgaps where we can start over with a new QB for a one to two year grooming period. Playing out the Harrington thing just isn't going to work. A change of scenery is probably best for him too.Harrington's 77 QB rating wasn't real impressive in a year where passing statistics were up around the league. He ranked 22nd in that stat.I've seen some things I like from Joey and I definitely think it's possible that he could pull a Brees next year and have a monster season.But on the other hand, I've seen a lot of things I don't like. Mooch has seen them too. If he doesn't think he can win with Joey, there's no point in dragging it out, paying the bonus to go through another season, setting the team back a year and then cutting him.This is the silliest thing I've ever heard - cutting your QB that you drafted #3 overall only 3 years ago over a $3 million bonus? He was even close to bad last year with 19 TD's/12 INT's and a 77 QB rating.
From someone who's in Michigan and sees most of the Lions FBOFW, I agree. That's what I've seen too. And as many have pointed out, the sack total is all about Harrington being quick to dump the ball off or throw it away. It doesn't mean he's really mobile, and it doesn't mean he hasn't been rushed, hit, pounded through three years. It means he's quick to bail on a play and at least good at getting that incomplete pass out there, or a meaningless checkdown. The more I see Harrington play, the more I think it's Tim Couch, 2.0. All that said, I'd be surprised if the Lions cut him over this reasonable bonus. I think they'll give him another year, perhaps with a discounted veteran QB (not McMahon) around to push him a bit.
I dont understand why everyone says the Lions would take an enormous "Cap Hit" if Harrington is cut. I think people just like using that phrase. The cap hit would be exactly the same if they cut Joey or keep him. Either way they have a lot of money tied up into a braindead QB who is losing games. My opinion: sign a discounted free agent veteran this year, and depending on Bree's success in 2005, sign Brees after his 1 year deal ends in 2006. San Diego WILL make Rivers the starter in 2006.
The Man Who Met Andy Griffith
Footballguy
I'm a Lions fan, and like the rest of us here I am done with Joey. Out of curiosity, is there anybody around here who watches a lot of Lions game and defends him?As many have pointed out, he has no touch. It's amazing how much difficulty he has throwing the ball 10 yards to a wide-open receiver. You can make all the cracks you like about the receiving corps but I've seen the passes he's made; they are awful. This, combined with his inability to throw it deep, explains his atrocious YPA.He had two 300-yard games toward the end of the season, but he needed 44 and 49 attempts to do it--and sandwiched between them was a 150-yard stinker.His receiving corps isn't the league's best, but Roy Williams and Hakim are good enough for a decent offense. Donovan McNabb looked like a pro-bowler with a much worse cast before TO came along. Drew Brees has looked like a pro-bowler this year with one good receiver plus Parker & Osgood. The reason that Joey Harrington looks like a turd with Roy Williams and Hakim is that he is a turd. The reason that Kevin Jones has looked like a monster in that same offense is that he is a monster.The fact that McMahon hasn't looked any better just speaks to the fact that McMahon too is awful.It's hard to face sometimes, especially for fantasy owners, but sometimes first rounders like Couch and Leaf are outright busts. I'd put Harrington in that boat (although he is clearly more talented than Couch, and clearly less insane than Leaf).
The Man Who Met Andy Griffith
Footballguy
Also, I don't know the Lions' cap situation, but I'd be pretty surprised if they are anywhere near the cap with those players. I sure hope not :X
The team is denying this - there's something on the Detroit website - and apparently Harrington isn't due a roster bonus, either.
We do appreciate mlive making our off-seasons all the more interesting, even if they didn't get their story straight.
http://www.detroitlions.com/document_displ...ument_id=399541
We do appreciate mlive making our off-seasons all the more interesting, even if they didn't get their story straight.
http://www.detroitlions.com/document_displ...ument_id=399541
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Spartans Rule
Footballguy
Interesting point here.If you want to look for a guy who fits the personality of Detroit, how about Jon Kitna? Short on physical talent, undrafted, always overlooked... but a fierce competitor and productive player. I think the Motor City would take to him.
Pittsburgh P
Footballguy
Are you really questioning Charles Rogers' toughness after he suffered back-to-back season-ending collarbone fractures? Maybe there is something I am missing, and I can understand the statement "At least Roy plays" if you are implying that Rogers is injury prone or something (which I would disagree with as well but at least understand the reasoning), but I would have to strongly disagree that a broken collarbone is "dinged up" and can be played through.
Agree Fontes was terrible, but after Bobby Ross and Marty Morninhweg he looks damn good
.BTW, what were the names of those decent QBs he had? Scott Mitchell? Andre Ware? Rodney Peete? Erik Kramer? Just trying to figure out which one (or two since it was stated decent QBs as in plural) was the decent one. I'd cede on the other points, though Fontes was clueless what to do with the good defensive talent he had, and there was rarely much in the secondary, at least at the CB position.
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
Matt Millen is not a bad GM. Ford wanted Harrington, Millen wanted Jammer. Jammer, Rogers, Williams and Jones would have been fantastic 1st round picks the past four years despite Rogers injuries. McMahon isn't all that good but they could have gotten a QB at somepoint.
azgroover
Footballguy
Bobby Ross was a way better coach than Wayne Fontes.Agree Fontes was terrible, but after Bobby Ross and Marty Morninhweg he looks damn good
Jello Biafra
Footballguy
I am guessing that this is a tactic by the lions to get Joey to take a significant pay cut at risk of being let go, which of course won't happen.
Spartans Rule
Footballguy
Scott Mitchell and Dave Krieg.The 94 Lions with Krieg and 95 Lions with Mitchell were both scary good for the last half of the regular season before tanking in the playoffs.
That's not true. The coaches wanted Jammer for the "quick fix" he would be at corner. Millen wanted Harrington for the long-term and took him. Obviously I'm the only one left on this board, maybe in the world that supports Joe Harrington. He's a square peg in a round hole. The "check-downs" all you refer to aren't all check downs. Many of the plays that Mr. Conservative (Mooch) calls are short routes that call on a receiver to break tackles after a short catch. That isn't the Lions strength at all. Roy Williams should be running downfield, making catches over shorter, weaker DB's. As soon as Mooch gave the play calling duties to the QB coach, Harrington began to throw farther downfield. He also did a very good job of tucking the ball away and running. I think the problem isn't Harrington but Mooch. Terrell Owens complained about the lack of a downfield passing game while Mooch was the coach. The system was perfect for the QB he had then (Garcia) cuz of his pop-gun arm. Harrington has the talent to throw the deep out, the post , and the go but Mooch doesn't call those kinds of plays. Until Mooch gets a clue and tries to fit the system around a players talents instead of a trying to fit a player into a system, the Lions won't be going anywhere fast.
Bob Henry
Footballguy
Well said bts.. I think it's still a "shared" blame game where Mooch deserves a certain amount of responsibility for a simplistic, utterly conservative offensive game plan week to week. What did they open it up once (against Minny? can't remember for sure) only to go right back to the dink and dunk?That said, Harrington developed the check down mentality in part because of the coaching he had from Morninwheg. I honestly didn't see enough of Harrington at Oregon to say whether he was a down-the-field QB or not, but several of the local pundits say that is the case and it's Mooch/Morninwheg who've altered his QBing style to fit their conservative offensive schemes.Millen wants him to go deep more frequently, while Mooch keeps sticking to the system.I personally have always believed it's good to have a system and get the players to buy into said system as long as it's productive and innovative. On the other hand, all of the greatest coaches still tweak their schemes and tailor them to the talent on their teams.I honestly don't expect Harrington to be released, but if it were to happen it certainly wouldn't surprise me. I mean.. it's the freaking Lions we're talking about here. I would love to see Kitna or someone like him signed with the idea that he could push Harrington. If he falters again, Kitna can step in. I just don't see McMahon ever being anything more than an athletic backup who will tease you in the pre-season with those 'glimpses' only to fall flat on his face if he's put into the pressure cooker of being the starting QB week in and week out.That's not true. The coaches wanted Jammer for the "quick fix" he would be at corner. Millen wanted Harrington for the long-term and took him. Obviously I'm the only one left on this board, maybe in the world that supports Joe Harrington. He's a square peg in a round hole. The "check-downs" all you refer to aren't all check downs. Many of the plays that Mr. Conservative (Mooch) calls are short routes that call on a receiver to break tackles after a short catch. That isn't the Lions strength at all. Roy Williams should be running downfield, making catches over shorter, weaker DB's. As soon as Mooch gave the play calling duties to the QB coach, Harrington began to throw farther downfield. He also did a very good job of tucking the ball away and running. I think the problem isn't Harrington but Mooch. Terrell Owens complained about the lack of a downfield passing game while Mooch was the coach. The system was perfect for the QB he had then (Garcia) cuz of his pop-gun arm. Harrington has the talent to throw the deep out, the post , and the go but Mooch doesn't call those kinds of plays. Until Mooch gets a clue and tries to fit the system around a players talents instead of a trying to fit a player into a system, the Lions won't be going anywhere fast.
cstu
Footballguy
I'm repeating myself here, but can we at least see what he can do with Williams, Rogers and Jones all healthy? The Lions finally got some talent around him and now he needs a chance to prove what he can do with it. Cut the guy some slack - his #1 RB and WR for parts of the year have been Pinner and Az-Hakim :XWell said bts.. I think it's still a "shared" blame game where Mooch deserves a certain amount of responsibility for a simplistic, utterly conservative offensive game plan week to week. What did they open it up once (against Minny? can't remember for sure) only to go right back to the dink and dunk?That said, Harrington developed the check down mentality in part because of the coaching he had from Morninwheg. I honestly didn't see enough of Harrington at Oregon to say whether he was a down-the-field QB or not, but several of the local pundits say that is the case and it's Mooch/Morninwheg who've altered his QBing style to fit their conservative offensive schemes.Millen wants him to go deep more frequently, while Mooch keeps sticking to the system.I personally have always believed it's good to have a system and get the players to buy into said system as long as it's productive and innovative. On the other hand, all of the greatest coaches still tweak their schemes and tailor them to the talent on their teams.I honestly don't expect Harrington to be released, but if it were to happen it certainly wouldn't surprise me. I mean.. it's the freaking Lions we're talking about here. I would love to see Kitna or someone like him signed with the idea that he could push Harrington. If he falters again, Kitna can step in. I just don't see McMahon ever being anything more than an athletic backup who will tease you in the pre-season with those 'glimpses' only to fall flat on his face if he's put into the pressure cooker of being the starting QB week in and week out.That's not true. The coaches wanted Jammer for the "quick fix" he would be at corner. Millen wanted Harrington for the long-term and took him. Obviously I'm the only one left on this board, maybe in the world that supports Joe Harrington. He's a square peg in a round hole. The "check-downs" all you refer to aren't all check downs. Many of the plays that Mr. Conservative (Mooch) calls are short routes that call on a receiver to break tackles after a short catch. That isn't the Lions strength at all. Roy Williams should be running downfield, making catches over shorter, weaker DB's. As soon as Mooch gave the play calling duties to the QB coach, Harrington began to throw farther downfield. He also did a very good job of tucking the ball away and running. I think the problem isn't Harrington but Mooch. Terrell Owens complained about the lack of a downfield passing game while Mooch was the coach. The system was perfect for the QB he had then (Garcia) cuz of his pop-gun arm. Harrington has the talent to throw the deep out, the post , and the go but Mooch doesn't call those kinds of plays. Until Mooch gets a clue and tries to fit the system around a players talents instead of a trying to fit a player into a system, the Lions won't be going anywhere fast.
Donnybrook
Footballguy
Optimism wanes as Lions fans realize that Joey Harrington is still their QB.Lions | Harrington Release Speculation Shot Down - from www.KFFL.comWed, 12 Jan 2005 12:38:32 -0800DetroitLions.com reports the Detroit Lions are shooting down speculation that they may be interested in releasing QB Joey Harrington. "We have absolutely no intention of releasing Joey Harrington, and there has been no organizational discussion about cutting Joey as suggested in the article. Joey had his best season this past year, and we firmly believe that he will continue to improve. We consider the report baseless and untrue," the Lions said in a team-released statement.
Silverstreak
Footballguy
I agree.....GOT MILK? :rotflmao:
bueno
In a class by himself
I tink it's all a negotiations ploy. Harrington will likely be back next year. You Lions fans sure are hard on QBs. I remember how everybody hated Charlie Batch - now who was it that replaced him?Few quarterbacks make it in the first few years. Heck even Favre and Young were traded away by their original teams (and Brooks and Hasselback). It takes time for a QB to develop. I figure though, that next year is his last chance.
Raging weasel
Footballguy
That sounds like the exact same thing the Lions said about Batch,Moore,Morton and Morningwhig.During the denials of this story no one has said that Joey is the starter for this team only that they plan on him being here next year-sounds alot like Clinton-speak to me
salmonstud
Footballguy
Brooks?
nightshift
Footballguy
As a Harrington owner, please cut or trade him.Put him in a system like Parcells in Dallas, then will see what he's made of. He plays for Detroit, one of the saddest teams in the NFL (guess he could end up a Brown. :X ).
ILoveMyLions
Footballguy
Because they would take the hit and not have a starting QB yet! They would then have to shell out another few million for next year to get a QB. And no, McMahon doesn't count. Their best bet is to wait one more year, see if he develops more, see if we can get Rogers, Williams and Jones on the field for a whole year and evaluate after the season. After all, the FA QBs this year suck anyway! Who would the Lions be able to get who is better at this point...Jeff Garcia? Please...I could also see the Lions drafting a QB in the third or fourth round and try and develop someone.
ILoveMyLions
Footballguy
I've been pimping this for weeks now...Kitna would be a great fit for this team as he has the intangibles and has played in a west coast system before. He could be brought in for a draft pick from Cincy as he's due a roster bonus pretty soon and be the backup to Joey. If Harrington doesn't improve after 4 games or so, then Kitna would be in.
ILoveMyLions
Footballguy
Which is why they won't cut him. The Lions organization can't take the chance that Joey goes elsewhere and blows up. They don't just want to release him and see him succeed elsewhere, that would be the worst case scenario.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
I agree, but I would make Joey earn the job in camp. Why bench Kitna if he is the one who shows more?
ILoveMyLions
Footballguy
Why would they trade one guy who has had problems leading his team for another?
ILoveMyLions
Footballguy
Agreed...
ILoveMyLions
Footballguy
Yeah...he's a good coach , he doesn't coach that stuff...Bobby Ross was a way better coach than Wayne Fontes.Agree Fontes was terrible, but after Bobby Ross and Marty Morninhweg he looks damn good
ILoveMyLions
Footballguy
Actually, it is true. There was a lot of specualtion during the draft that Millen wanted Jammer or wanted to trade down, as there was an offer on the board (Dallas I think, maybe someone can help me out there). Ford wanted the franchise QB to get people in the new stadium and blah blah blah...I never heard a story that said that Millen at the time wanted to draft Harrington.
Colin Dowling
Footballguy
Mooch on Rome saying that the report is "nonsense"Says Lewis never wrote a letter.Says, "not everyone is a Roethlisberger". Says Joey's stats are favorable with the other QBs in his draft class.Says he's "developing and making progress"Says, "we're trying to give him every opportunity (to be our guy)."Says, "thats the direction we're headed, and we're giving him every opportunity to be that guy."COLin
ILoveMyLions
Footballguy
Yeah...I read that story the other day. That's exactly my point. That story came out three yeas later!!! Where was Millen's response for the last three years to all the speculation in Detroit that he didn't want Harrington? And there has been a lot of storys about what really went down on draft day. It's a little suspicious that he never publically supported him until now, and it was still through a third party! You are fooling yourself if you think he wanted Harrington at the time in my opinion. He got trumped by the owner and can't admit it as it would look bad for the organization and for him. He has to make it look that way now or he's not really in control.
Mooch has to earn some of that 5 mill/yr doing something besides winning games. So he's good at spin doctoring and covering his ***.. Edited to add: I do like Mooch, but I think this season was a bit of a situation where we discovered that he might not be all he's cracked up to be. He failed to make adjustments until WAY after the fact on too many fronts.. the most glaring one was the RB situation. FWIW, I don't completely buy that Harrington is getting cut, but Tom "Killer" Kowalski also pointed out on the radio last night that they did/said the same exact things with respect to Robert Porcher's situation, and a couple others examples that have since been wiped off my short-term memory.I guess we'll just have to wait and see.. I'm not sold on Joey, but he's not as bad as other QBs we've lived through either. He's not accurate, he's a bit off in terms of his leadership and personality, but if he pulls it together with a healthy WR corps next year and KJ in the backfield.. it will be like Drew Brees all over. Just get us to the darn playoffs!I do find it pretty hilarious that with all the other holes on the Lions team everyone in Detroit has the microscope on Joey all the time. Forget the fact their secondary is overpaid and underperforming (Bly gets a bit of a pass because his '03 season was spectacular), their interior offensive line is weak and needs an upgrade, they have no TE on the roster that is a true dual-threat, and they desperately need to improve their outside pass rush and depth at DE because Kalimba Edwards is a one-dimensional player who isn't even as good as Tracey Scroggins was. ouch. -Bob
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ILoveMyLions
Footballguy
To be fair...The letter that was reported to have been sent was not actually a letter and was probably incorrectly misquoted as such. It actually was the end of the season evaluation that is done by members of the coaching staffs about people in there area of concentration via numerous reports of out Detroit. Lewis submitted the report on Harrington and it is believed that it was not favorable. That seems more realistic to me than any of the other speculation.
The Man Who Met Andy Griffith
Footballguy
Translation: not everyone is a good QB.
Translation: Joey is no worse than the other struggling QB from his class. I will cleverly disguise the fact that he is clearly inferior to at least two younger QB's (Roethlisberger and Leftwich). Joey's stats are also favorable with the other QB's whose initials are "JH".
