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Looking for Auction-style draft advice (1 Viewer)

Jayrod

Footballguy
This will be my third year of FF and I'm officially addicted.

One of the leagues I've been in for the last two years is moving into a dynasty format (no keepers from prior year) and we are going to be doing an auction draft to start the first year. Our commissioner has come up with one screwy format for scoring and our postitions are fairly bizarre as well. Rather than get too specific, I'm just looking for some general auction advice since this is my first time at it and I have no idea what to expect. I think some of the guys in the league have done it before, so I don't want to be too surprised and be at a disadvantage come draft day. Most of us, however, will be doing our first auction.

I know we will be going in a draft order to select players to auction. One thing I really want to know is what strategies I should take in who I select to be auctioned. Should it be players I want or players I don't? Should I go for the high priority positions in early rounds or sneak in lower level positions early?

Also, should I look to nail some premier players or try to go with a more rounded team? What has worked for you guys in the past?

TIA.

 
Pre-cursor: The following information is 6 years old. The players and their values have all changed, but the theories should all still be sound. After compiling and collecting this info another FBG, I believe beto, still had it and was generous enough to resend it back to me. I'll put each topic in a seperate post.

Enjoy...

Auction and VBD

schu

Football Guy

Member # 567 posted 05-21-2001 01:35 PM

I love this topic! Topes, looks like you had it right but came up all tails in week 15. Don't question your methods.

For the past two years I've been in two leagues -- one auction, one draft. Last year I was fortunate enough to come across JoeB's VBD system before the draft. I made VBD spreadsheets based on each leagues scoring system before the draft/auction.

Found the draft league was hard to get an advantage in early rounds. People went pretty much right down my list. I finished 10th in a 12 team league. I think I took Terrell Davis as the 5th pick. Failed to grab Mike Anderson and tailspun to oblivion.

The VBD system is made for an auction! I dominated the regular season and playoffs in my auction league. In a draft your choice is between only a handful of players at any given pick. The VBD gives you the confidence in the value of any player thrown up for bid (you'll need it!).

Here's what I do.

1) Add a couple columns to the right of VBD on the spreadsheet (that’s the 70 top players in the far right side). Label the first added column 'cap$'. Label the second added column 'VBD/cap$'.

2) Use a combination of your league's historical player prices (i.e. Top 1-2 RB's for $40 cap; top Def usually goes for $6) and mock draft data to rank in dollars what you estimate the strike price to be for each of these 70 players. Take care that the total $ you estimate does not exceed the total league cap. Since these 70 players only represent only 6-7 players per team, you'll have to shoot for a total $ less than 100% of the total league budget. I think last year I assumed about 80% would be spent on these 70 players. KNOW THAT ANY PLAYER OUTSIDE OF THESE 70 HAVE LITTLE VALUE ABOVE MINIMUM SALARY (stick to this rule but a common exception is to pay more than minimum to back-up your starter such as Shaun Alexander for Ricky Watters).

3) Divide the VBD projection (to the left of the added columns) by your estimated bid price (cap$) to fill the 'VBD/cap$' column.

Now, probable bargains will start to jump out at you.

What you will find in most common scoring systems:

1) The top RB theory is popular for a reason. RB's offer great VBD/cap$ even at steep prices.

2) A top TE may be worth a lot more of your cap than you (and your friends) estimate.

3) Top QB's and WR's frequently offer a poor value in an auction. Look for starters near the league minimum. Garcia, Toomer, Glenn (slipped thru!), and Chrebet won it for me last year because getting them near cap min allowed me to get premium players like Tony Gonzalez, Ricky Williams, Ricky Waters, and Mike Vanderjagt.

4) Top Def's and K's offer excellent VBD/cap. This flies in the face of most of your opponent's min cap Def/K strategy. Take advantage!

Use this method with the goal of having the team with the greatest total VBD number at the end of the auction. Your greatest benefit will come in not paying $15 when another WR can be had for $2 and not paying $10 for a starting QB you rate as good as a $2 one. Get 3-4 premier players, a couple of their solid back-ups, and some role players. Good luck!
 
This will be my third year of FF and I'm officially addicted.

One of the leagues I've been in for the last two years is moving into a dynasty format (no keepers from prior year) and we are going to be doing an auction draft to start the first year. Our commissioner has come up with one screwy format for scoring and our postitions are fairly bizarre as well. Rather than get too specific, I'm just looking for some general auction advice since this is my first time at it and I have no idea what to expect. I think some of the guys in the league have done it before, so I don't want to be too surprised and be at a disadvantage come draft day. Most of us, however, will be doing our first auction.

I know we will be going in a draft order to select players to auction. One thing I really want to know is what strategies I should take in who I select to be auctioned. Should it be players I want or players I don't? Should I go for the high priority positions in early rounds or sneak in lower level positions early?

Also, should I look to nail some premier players or try to go with a more rounded team? What has worked for you guys in the past?

TIA.
I just did a very simple search for "auction" and came up with 4 pages of threads. Some of those I remember pretty well; they contained lots of great strategy discussion. I'll tackle one of your questions, though. Nominate players you don't want but make sure that somebody else does. This changes, of course, in the later going if you happen to be the chip leader.
 
Nomination Strategies and Values

schu

Football Guy

Member # 567 posted 06-02-2001 12:31 PM

i think i've got a good system, but would like to read about other strategies.

background:

• my auction league has 14 rounds of nominations

• we start 1QB 2RB 2WR 1TE 1K 1D

• you must win the bid for at least 2QB 3RB 3WR 2TE 1K 1D on auction day

• you receive one week service from a scab kicker and defense (from FA pool) each year to cover their byes

• 12 team non-keeper yardage league

• nomination order is determined randomly and remains the same over the course of the auction

strategies:

• in the early bids (your 1-4), nominate top name recognition players from positions that offer less VBD value.

i'm talking WR's and QB's here.

someone like Drew Bledsoe or Joe Horn.

these are guys would never slip thru the cracks to become sleepers.

if you're lucky, you'll incite a bidding war.

note: your last bid is your first (stick to that).

• for mid-auction bids (5-10), your nominations must inspire enough passion in your opponents that someone will outbid your min bid.

popular team's defenses (Cowboys; Packers) do well here.

nominate rookies and sleeper's identified in print rags at this time.

everyone still has cap $ at this time, so there's no such thing as a sleeper sneaking by at this point.

you'll be amazed at what people will overpay dreaming of owning the next Randy Moss.

oh, and they will stick you with Adam Vinatieri for $1 so don't try it (at least not twice).

• on the late bids (11-14+), it will run more like a draft.

most big money and great players are gone.

a bid will often go thru for min or a little more.

now's the time to get your back-ups, deep sleepers, and K or D (if you haven't bought them yet).

feedback appreciated
David Dodds - Footballguys.com

Administrator

Member # 1 posted 06-03-2001 02:16 AM

A couple of strategies I like are the following:

- Throw out guys just below your draft list early for a $1. Rookies and fading Superstars come to mind. Of course you don't want any of these, but it's nice to see players not even in your Top 200 get run up. Stop after getting stung once. Guys like Andre Rison, Herman Moore come to mind this year.

- Always bid in $1 increments. No need to be macho.

- Always bow out of bidding wars, but encourage others. You are not going to let him get Manning and Harrison, are you?

- If your price on James is say $40 and it comes to you at 41 (with many still bidding), Do not pass. Bid 41 confidently (Especially if others think you are an astute bidder). Of course you will pass when it comes back around, but the point is you don't want people to start thinking it is too high.

- Always follow an overpaid player with a better player from the same position. If Tim Brown just got 25, then it's time to throw Eric Moulds out there.

- Keep track of money spent by team and what positions they still need to cover.

- Throw the 3rd and 4th best kicker out for a $1. If you get him you are happy. If he is bid up you are happy.

- Never introduce players you want. Let someone else bring their name up. The longer their name is not called, the better chance you have to getting him.
schu

Football Guy

Member # 567 posted 06-04-2001 12:33 PM

quote:

Originally posted by C & C:

If you league has to start a TE how do you deal with a player like Tony Gonzalez?

[ June 04, 2001: Message edited by: C & C ]
thanks C & C. check out the classic Auction primer at the following link. A Bid for Success

i'll do more evaluating on the TE position than any other before the auction. last year i ran into this problem. i identified the top TE's as the most historically undervalued based on our (TE favorable) scoring system. W.Walls was proposed in the early going. i had him as #2 TE and couldn't let him go for a low price. i got Walls for 16% of cap (which was a fine price for our system). then, Gonzalez came up. i once again couldn't let Gonzo go cheap so i took him for 24% (once again, a fair price). i was the laughing stock of the draft by tying up 40% of cap on 2 TE's when i didn't even have any other players. i held the intention of trading Walls or Gonzo but that never materialized. anyway, things worked out great for me last year (Garcia 1%, Watters for 5%, etc...) and Walls getting hurt made be happy i got TG, but i really understand the nature of your question and don't want to go thru this again.

i call guys like Gonzo, Edge, Faulk -- pivot players. these are guys that you have to know where you stand before filling out the rest of the auction. remembering your overall strategy of getting the most VBD points for your entire cap, i have identified the TE and RB as the positions to get a lot of VBD. now, (and this is a tricky point) you will be able to find better VBD/$ players at these positions (R. Watter's, F. Jones, for example) than these top players, but will there be other positions with comparable VBD/cap that you can spend your savings on (at QB and WR it's not likely)? basically, you need to know if where players in a small valuable tier (like Edge/Faulk or Gonzo) go before you make other big decisions. Edge and Faulk will be nominated by your opponents early, i'd bet. it may be benefitial to nominate Gonzalez with your first bid (i'm thinking about doing it). i he goes too high (he won't) then you can plan on spending more on the RB position and getting a second tier TE. hope that helps. i'm always willing to discuss auction strategy on this board.
Unlucky

Football Guy

Member # 145 posted 06-04-2001 10:29 PM

Some have brought up scenarios that I have seen, but I have to disagree with a lot of the strategy posted. I've been doing an auction league for 5 years, and the nomination format is like what has been mentioned.

Here's my main observation: The first players nominated go for less than players of equal ability later in the auction. If that is just babble, I'll give you an example:

4 years ago, I got E. Smith and B. Sanders for $50 each. E. George and C. Martin went for over $60 each. This was because ES and BS were two of the first 3 RBs nominated, and EG and CM were nominated several backs later.

Here's the reason, and why it happens in all auctions: A lot of owners don't want to spend all of their money right away. They want to wait until others have used their money so that they can sign their sleepers cheaply. (In fact, this was one of the strategies mentioned) Therefore, the first few players go for less, but then people realize that they don't have a "tier 1" RB and there are only 3 left on their list. "Oh Sugar!" Now 6 owners all want 3 RBs and the price goes way too high. I've seen this happen with RBs and WRs quite often. I can't recall if the same holds for QBs and TEs because the demand doesn't dominate the supply.

So, we have learned to get your studs early, then watch the other owners fight for the table scraps.

Here's another reason to go after the top guys early - In a draft, you get only 1 first round pick. In an auction, you can get 2 and maybe 3 players of first round value. We've seen that the top 2 or 3 players at each position are much better than the rest. I'd glady trade picks in rounds 2 through 6 or 7 to have 3 first round picks. So my strategy - Get the studs no matter what the cost. Fill in your team with cheap guys that fall through the cracks.

So - The final strategy - Nominate the best player on your board and get him. Go as high as possible on the top players on your board. Then watch as others see how good your team is, and do anything to match your talent.

Look at your past values for player salaries. I would bet that you could have gotten Faulk, James, and Moss last season and still have been under the cap. If you nab these 3, I don't care who you fill in with. Also, the others will be scrambling for the top RBs.

And just one final reminder - Don't wait around for the best "values" as others "waste" all of their money. You'll get mediocre players at mediocre prices and thus have a mediocre team. Unless of course, if you are in my league.
 
Strategy

schu

Football Guy

Member # 567 posted 06-05-2001 12:12 PM

since this is your first year at an auction, keep it simple and follow Unlucky's "3-studs-and-some-scrubs" strategy (in the previous auction thread). if you customize the VBD Excel spreadsheet later this summer to your leagues rules, i'm sure you'll see why this simple strategy can work.

i'm thinking Gonzo (up to 20% of cap), Faulk or James (up to 40% of cap), and a Green/L.Smith/Dillon level RB (up to 16% cap) as your studs. that's a target of 76%, i bet you get there in 70%.

all this while, let top WR's fly off the board. check them off your cheatsheet and keep an eye on your opponents slot filling up. every year in my auction i nab a top 12 WR mid-late for about 4% and two top 24 WR's for 1-3% each. guys like: Terry Glenn, Toomer, Chrebet last year. if one of your buddies doesn't laugh at your WR corps then you didn't do it right.

conventional wisdom is that Gannon will be the best value at QB this year. i hope he's available for under 10% of cap. i know some acceptable QB will be available for that price so just check 'em off like the WR's till one finds his way on your roster.

i think the top D (Baltimore) is predictable enough to be worth 4-5%. you'll find many others that disagree with this opinion, but i think the top 2 D's are worth something.

your K and back-ups should all be min bid players.

good luck.
 
Budgeting/Values

kestrel

Football Guy

Member # 273 posted 06-12-2001 03:25 PM

What about percentage of money spent on starters vs. percent on backups. I've seen everything from over 90 percent on starters to 60 percent on them. What is preferred by those with experience?
Flick

Football Guy

Member # 779 posted 06-12-2001 03:32 PM

I'd probably split the difference with around 70-75%, you should have at least one okay backup for QB/RB/WR, they will get some playing time. I would likely spend the minimum on backup kicker, defense, TE

60% is very low, some stud players could be at or even above 50% of payroll. In my $150 salary cap league both Faulk and James went for above $75
Full Meal Deal

Football Guy

Member # 163 posted 06-12-2001 03:38 PM

Most backups (if drafted at all) seem to go for around 10 - 15% of the starter. I usually won't nominate the backup for a player I have won, hoping they slip through the cracks and I can snag him for the minimum salary. However, don't put it past me to nominate YOUR backup.

I guess I misread Kestrel's question so here is a more appropriate response:

At the draft I don't try to get backups for my roster as much as I try to get additional players that I consider to be legitimate starters in their own right.

--------------------

Just as iron sharpens iron, so does one man improve another.
kestrel

Football Guy

Member # 273 posted 06-12-2001 03:38 PM

Gotta be gutsy to make that big purchase, just like real life. Anyway, thanks for the heads up Flick. Noted and filed in the memory banks!
Gravedigger

Football Guy

Member # 590 posted 06-12-2001 03:46 PM

I'm assuming this is directly related to philosophy. I've never auctioned yet but from the threads I've seen, even in straight drafts, opinions are divided between studs and depth.

Am I incorrect in assuming that the % allocated to starters should be directly proportional to your philosophy? Since I tend to depth, shouldn't I be at the lower end of the scale?

Or does this percentage only vaguely reflect the depth vs stud arguement because of the potential for some owners to "overspend" for premier RB's (if 11 other teams spend 60% of their cash on RB's, and I've only allocated 60% total to starters, I'd be out of RB's entirely and sitting with too much money at the end of the auction).

Flick, from reading your posts, your a Stud first guy. Assuming you were not, would your % allocated for starters change?
Flick

Football Guy

Member # 779 posted 06-12-2001 04:12 PM

GraveDigger: I think I lean towards the stud theory. I know this much, I want at least one guy I have ranked in the my top 10. I'll try to relate this to a regular draft. If I don't get one of my top 10, it seems like I just traded out of the first round of a draft for some small reward later. I'm sure the Pick Calculator would not like that move.

I try to get 1 guy in my top 10 and then 3 additional guys in my top 30. To me that would be like having 4 draft picks in the first 2 1/2 rounds of a regular 12 team draft. If you give me those picks I think I could do enough later in the draft with rookies and sleepers to field a very good team - even if I didn't have my 4th round pick.

I feel it's more effective to make free agent moves and trades to increase depth, but some teams with better depth have done well in my league.

To be honest I felt great after my auction last year and it still didn't pan out due to injuries (T. Davis and Staley) and ineffective play (B. Johnson). But on an average year if you have 2 very good RB's and a top QB you should be okay.
LAUNCH

Football Guy

Member # 281 posted 06-12-2001 04:17 PM

One key to coming out with a successful draft is to keep yourself in the auction. What does this mean? This is one area that being a shark can really come in handy. For this example lets assume that you are the type of owner that everyone probably respects your fantasy ability. In trading this can hurt you because they assume that the gold you are giving them will turn into lead once they get their hands on it. On draft day being respected as an astute gem finder will really help you!

If player X is not a player that you think worthy of getting, don't be afraid to bid on him early and often. The key is not to stay in too long as to get stuck with player X, but make sure that your presence is felt. Having bid on a player can be a sign, to other players who are not as confident in their abilities, that this is a quality pick. Having others spend their cash is almost as important as spending your own.

As far as the big stud theory goes...I think you should get at least one. If you get that one can't miss guy and sprinkly in your gems and sleepers then you can come out of draft day happy.

Last year I went big after Edge which was really a no brainer, but when I complemented him with Gannon, Garner, and Alexander it looked like (and performed like) a monster. The key is not only getting the A list talent, but stealing from the other guy's "Oh he's just" trash bin.

Auction leagues are great in this way because if there is a guy you want, you have as good a shot as anyone to get him.

LAUNCH
kestrel

Football Guy

Member # 273 posted 06-12-2001 05:41 PM

Great points there Launch.

You say you got Edge last year. Wasn't it hard to stay active after you got him? I mean weren't there many other players going for dollars that you just couldn't afford? What do you do in these types of situations? Is this the time to really zoom in on the few targeted players you have in other tiers? Kind of like a breather when you are down on the end of a serpentine draft. I realize the action is constant in the auction but a huge name player has to stunt your activity a bit, or am I wet on this one?

And what percentage do you like to spend on your starters? Heavy or light? Since you got Edge last year, it probably tends toward the heavy end.
Unlucky

Football Guy

Member # 145 posted 06-12-2001 06:14 PM

Originally posted by Big Sug:Unlucky, what's your definition of "stud?" If you're talking about maybe the top 2 or 3 players in the draft, and you're convinced that you need one of them to succeed (my experience in auction leagues says you don't), then I can see your point. However, if "stud" means the top 10-15 players, and you think you need to overspend to land these guys, i disagree. You can land more than one of them at a lower-than-anticipated price--well, you can in the league I play in. I mean top 2 or 3 at each position. Go for Faulk, James, Taylor, Warner, Culpepper, Moss, Harrison, Gonzalez. If you can get 2 or 3 of those guys with 60 to 70% of your cap, you should be able to fill in with enough value player to have a loaded team. Think of it as trading your 2nd through 7th round picks to have 3 1st round picks. The cheap guys that you want to get at value are going to be cheap, so you don't need much cap space for them.

One more point - everybody's sleepers (Hasselback, A. Brooks, etc.) will go for way too much. 3 or 4 guys will wait just for them thinking they will be super cheap, only to overpay for them.

The sleepers that you can actually get are guys that would get drafted in rounds 9 or later and don't receive much hype in the preseason.
LAUNCH

Football Guy

Member # 281 posted 06-13-2001 12:10 AM

Our league is set up different than most leagues. We have a 2 team keeper, but we also have a 5 round rookie draft where the rookies have set salary amounts based on the round in which they were drafted.

I spent over 1/2 of my cap to get Edge. I thought he was the best back and I went out and got him. The key for me in getting him was that I was fairly confident that I had some players rated much higher than others in the league.

Another key to winning on draft day is something akin to "stealth conversation". I try to get information on how other GM's are thinking about players at any point. In-season or off-season I think that any opportunity to dig info out of the other owners can be invaluable.

The hard part of getting a marquee player that you have to pay top dollar for is that other owners can get bargains and you can do little to stop them. I just try to stick to my gameplan and make sure I get the guys I want. It is often tempting to get in on the bidding with a player that you wouldn't mind having, but hadn't planned on getting. This can throw off your whole draft and recommend trying to make a solid game plan and be strong enough to stick with it.

The cool thing about an auction is that each year it takes on its on "life". Guys like Hasselback and Brooks will definitely be marked as possible "sleepers", but timing in a draft is also a major factor in an auction. When a Hass or Brooks come up in the draft can be as big a factor as anything in determining their actual cost. If they come up real early or real late in a draft may actually cause these players to go cheaper than if they were to go somewhere in the middle.

There are a few things in auctions that are almost universaly true. People are going to want to spend a lot early and are going to have little to spend late. Guys like Hass and Brooks are fine QB's, but if its early in the draft how many people are going to go big to get either of these guys?

Again here these two QB's can fall into the regional bias category too. Seahawk and Saint fans might want to jump onto the bandwagon. Packer fans will probably also be bidding early and often for these two.

More later,
*edit to try to fix the quote boxes
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Trading?

Gravedigger

Football Guy

Member # 590 posted 06-18-2001 01:32 PM

New to caps and want to pick your brains. Especially about trades.

In an auction league that carries the cap into the season for FA's and trades. I'm a big fan of trading and am trying to see how this effects me and how best to leave my options to trade open through season.

Please correct these assumptions if wrong from your experience. Also, tips to manage the cap would be appreciated.

1) Since studs costs a huge $ amount during auction, trading them is almost impossible unless for another stud or unless your really making room under the cap and playing at "half-strength". Hence, from last year, no Garcia for Harrison trades.

2) Since studs from different positions are in different $ realms, it's difficult to trade studs between positions (e.g. Eddie George for Randy Moss would be tough since the guy tradeing Moss away would have to clear room for Eddies's extra initial costs).

3) Since sleepers that pan out have such a low $ amount, trading them off is tough since you can only get another panned out sleeper for the same cash. Unless, again, your operating considerably under the cap at the time. So if you had Manning and Garcia last year, you'd never be able to dish Garcia since he only costs you $2 and there's no other talent close to Garcia for that type of cash to trade.

4) If you save cap room in an attempt to pull trades like this, you run the risk of getting no trades and being under powered all season long.

5) A win/win trade is often when you send a back-up and get a starter from another position and your trade partner gets the same. With these cap ideas above, this becomes almost impossible unless your talking mid to low talent (where different positions have about the same $ amount) and both players also panned out about the same. Plus, they both had to be back-ups. Sounds difficult.

Anyone able to set me straight and calm my fears? Does this mean cap leagues tend to draft the teams they're fielding all season long? Or am I missing something? This would require re-evaluating talent on a steeper risk/safety pick for the studs as well as drafting for duration rather than season long manipulation.

I figure that any busts a team has could ease cap room by cutting them for a bottom barrel FA but busts are usually due to injury and it's tough to cut a $40 guy who might be back at the end of the season!

Anyone got tips or observations?
 
RB Values/Stud RB

Unlucky

Football Guy

Member # 145 posted 06-20-2001 03:48 PM

How do you stud RB theorists apply it to auctions? You can get any players you want, so do you spend out the buttocks on your RBs?

Personally, I plan to get as many studs as I can, regardless of position. I may end up spending most of my cap on just 3 or 4 players, and then fill in with very cheap guys. I may not end up with a RB, but I'd take a Culpepper, Moss, Harrison, and Gonzo team with crap at RB against anyone. At the same time, I may end up with Faulk and James and a lot of junk elsewhere.

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The Alchemist

Football Guy

Member # 1028 posted 06-20-2001 04:05 PM

I set aside an amount of money for each position (RB gets the most) and then spend most of that on 2 RBs and look for two cheaper ones. I jump on one of the stars early in the auction after the first player has been bought, the stars go for good value and then the rest of the RBs usually go too high for what they are worth. I am not sure if it is because people see the backs going and need one or what? I then get some value backs at the end.

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Gravedigger

Football Guy

Member # 590 posted 06-20-2001 04:19 PM

Unlucky, hope you get a bunch of posts here since this is my first auction year and I'm a "rb theorist". But I'm curious, since you don't seem to subscribe to the theory, why you'd care.

Personally, I suspect an auction works different although I haven't figured out why yet. During draft debates, there seems to be a split between RB believers and those that think it's bunk. On the auction posts however, I've yet to meet someone who does the two things I always try to do. 1) Get a great stable of backs, and 2) go for safe quantity rather than risky quality.

EVERYONE seems to say grab your studs, grab them early, and don't care what position they play. I'm a stubborn ******* but since the consensus has switched so much between these types of leagues, I'm treading softly and trying to learn why.

I can only assume that over-paying happens at every auction and that it tends to happen with "3rd and 4th round" talent because people worry that their team isn't sitting pretty yet.

If that's the case, than I'm likely to be screwed if I don't allow for this going into such a different system.

Anyone got experience and advice folks?

Anyone a rb theorist who had to modify their perspective when doing an auction?

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Big Sug

Football Guy

Member # 37 posted 06-20-2001 05:15 PM

I am not a stud RB theorist, but I like to think I'm an astute auction drafter. What I can say about RBs in an auction is that timing is everything.

What I've noticed is that the later a RB is nominated, the higher his price, relative to his VBD, will be. Last year, in my draft, Edge and Faulk were nominated very early on, and went for 38 and 36 percent of the cap, respectively. Eddie George slipped through the cracks and ended up being the last of the top-10 RBs nominated. The forces of supply and demand took over--It dawned on the owners who still hadn't bought their stud RB, that they might need one, and they bid Eddie up past Edge's price, and he ended up being the most expensive player in the draft--even though the consensus had him ranked lower than Edge/Faulk.

I don't disagree with Gravedigger that quantity over quality at RB is as good a theory as the stud RB theory. Either way, just make sure that you don't end up overpaying late, when you could get the same player, or a better one, for a cheaper price, early.
 
Determining Player Values

Zed

Football Guy

Member # 1681 posted 07-05-2001 01:46 PM

Hi All,

For those of you not into excel geekdom like me (building VBA macros and nested INDIRECT statements to make a cheat sheet) this could be a little dry -- I apologize in advance!

At my prodding, our ff leauge is going to switch to an auction to distribute players this year. The auction is for the draft only -- there are no free agent salaries once the draft is complete.

My question is in relation to how a VBD value relates to an auction value. I have built my spreadsheet with my own predictions and scoring system and now have a ranked list of players with corresponding VBD values. How do I then ascribe a $ value to each player? The method I am using now is:

$ Value = (Player's VBD / (Total VBD Points by Starters)) * Total $ In the Pot

So what I am saying here is that a player is worth the same percentage of the total dollars in the pool (e.g. $100 per team * 12 teams = $1200 in the pool) as his percentage of the total VBD points scored in the league by starters.

My problem here is that I ignore backups. Backup RBs should be worth something but not as much as starters, right? In theory, I should only be willing to pay the big bucks for someone who is going to be starting on my lineup, and $ spent on backups are wasted $. Kickers also get ascribed a $ value using this method, but really, I can get a kicker cheap -- they can't possibly be worth their "fair share" of the VBD points they represent.

At the end of the day using this system, Faulk is worth over 50% of my allotment in the draft. Do I really think Faulk is worth over half of the money I have to bid? (Maybe.) Given how scarce RBs will be in a 12-team leauge, shouldn't I try to get the one player that can smoke every other team in the leauge? (I know Faulk might not be the best RB, but let's just say he will repeat last year's performance for the sake of this argument).

If you made it to the end of this long question, I congratulate your patience! If you can help me at all in building my super-cheat sheet by providing some insight on how $-values relate to VBD values, then I thank you immensely!

TTFN,

Zed

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Unlucky

Football Guy

Member # 145 posted 07-05-2001 02:34 PM

I've done quite a few auctions now, and will be using VBD with my auction for the first time this year. I am planning on doing what you said, except with a small modification. I am going to try to determine as accurately as possible how much money people will spend on starters. Figure that people will spend about the minimum on kickers and D's (assuming no points for yds and pts allowed). I also think 3rd RB, 4th WR, and 2nd QB may see a little bit over the minimum. Bottom line is I would estimate that people will spend between 65 and 75% of their cap on projected starters.

One more thing - In my league, D's are very valuable because they get points for pts and yds allowed. However, people won't pay nearly as much for them, so I am going to neglect them in figuring my dollar values.

I think by getting a dollar figure on players will give you a big advantage. But be flexible as supply and demand will wreck the order of things once the auction gets going.

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Gatorman

Football Guy

Member # 46 posted 07-05-2001 03:33 PM

Take the total amount of players needed (12 teams * 14 rounds = 168 and 1200 bucks) and start alocating money values for each player. If you got 12 K 12 Def 60 wrs, 48 rbs 25 qbs.... Just look at that and what YOU'd be willing to spend on each. then use the history of how your league's teams like to build their rosters and you're good to go

Gatorman

I think the VBD download will have an auction on it's later incarnations. If not Komments.com 's download has one (although it's just a ripoff of Joe's)
 
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Nomination Strategies

Maximus* Football Guy

Member # 1755 posted 07-07-2001 10:11 AM

The common belief as you auction geeks like me are fully aware of is that if YOU want a player during the early in the auction, DO NOT BRING HIS NAME UP.....wait for someone else to do it. And vice-versa.....if you don't want a player on your club, than by all means BRING HIS NAME UP for bid and hopefully all your bretheren will start spending their cap money.

Here's my question: If hypothetically lets say the ALL the big names are available.....the FTaylors,MFaulk's,EJames's,SDavis's....RMoss's,MHarrisson's.....etc....wouldn't it be actually the prudent thing to do to bring up the 2nd tier type guys(but viable #1's) like a CMartins,LSmith's or JStewart type of back or a CCarter,THolt type WR and hope that seeing that most of the "real studs" are available, you and I can "buy" a CMartin for LESS than what he would go for?.

I'll give you an example: Last year at my auction....I targeted CuMart to be my #1 RB.....He normally goes for $75+ dollars...I, however brought him up(which flys in the face of accepted strategy) and because there were all the studs waiting to be bought, I got CuMart for $66 which was an excellent buy for him....especially when you consider guys like SDavis,EGeorge,FTaylor,TDavis all went for $85+ bucks.....So, was CuMart $15-$20 less valuable than those guys......With the solid season Martin had......the answer is obviously of course not.

Does anyone else in here agree with my strategy of bringing up guys for bid...and actually wanting them early in the auction so that a good buy can be had?.......Also are there any other good or different strategies y'all employ in an auction........luv to hear some

-Maximus

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"strength and honor"

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pmac Football Guy

Member # 1038 posted 07-07-2001 11:04 AM

Max-

I've found the opposite to be true. This is my 5th year in my auction league and the biggest thing that I'm trying to overcome is the fact that the earlier someone is brought up, the more overpriced they go, and that is due to the fact that ALL owners have their full cap left so people are more free with their money. In fact, last year, T.Owens and Rod Smith went for only $1 because they weren't thrown out until the very end.

So, my current strategy is to wait on all players that I want until the last minute - I often throw out PKs and DEFs when it's my turn in order not to "show my hand".

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Unlucky Football Guy

Member # 145 posted 07-07-2001 11:32 AM

I think it is pointless to try to "wait" until everyone else has spent their money so you can get bargains. By waiting, you are passing up the star players.

Also, I have found that the first few players are typically underpriced because others "wait" for the bargains. Then after people realize that the star players are in short supply, they go for too much.

I think it depends on the makeup of your league. If you have experienced vets that will try to get superstars at any cost, then maybe throwing out a guy you don't want is the better strategy. If you have owners that are bargain hunters, then throw out your guys early.

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Maximus* Football Guy

Member # 1755 posted 07-07-2001 12:11 PM

I actually subscribe to BOTH ways PMAC and UNLUCKY....though I do agree more so with UNLUCKY in that I like to "bargain hunt" early in the draft rather than late cause most of the owners in my league read all the theories and strategies about auctions and most of the theories usually say to "WAIT"..."BE PATIENT"..."HAVE THE MOST MONEY LEFT BY THE MIDDLE TO END OF THE AUCTION"....I suspect and thus my bringing this topic up, is that too many owners wait and than as Unlucky says, "panic" stikes and 2nd tier guys like the ESmith's,JAnderson's,TWheatley's type guys, who have NO business being a teams #1 RB, go for big big dollars. That's why I sort of like to bring up a CuMart who is a #1 type back up early even though I want him, cause I usually can get him for a bargain rate which helps me in the long run cause I have more money left over for the "real" bargains that will come late in the auction......you think?

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"strength and honor"

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chargerbum Football Guy

Member # 1319 posted 07-07-2001 12:14 PM

Only one of the 5 leagues I'm in is an auction format. And the way players are drafted has change mucho over the last 4 years. The first year of the league I dominated. Myself and one other owner had drafted auction format before in baseball and ended up with all star teams. The other owners spent way too much on the stars and ran out of money early like the're supposed to.

They did however, learn from their mistakes and now I can only expect 3 of the 8 owners to overbid early. So it's much tougher to get those steals at the end. They're still there, you just have to share them with more people.

Drafting auction is like a poker game. If you play without knowing the rules, everyone knows and you get killed. But it's not enough just to know the rules. The best poker players need to know what their marks will do.

So, that means to me, that your draft strategy is most reliant on who you're drafting against. In a draft against rookies you can simply throw out the studs and watch everyone be out of money by round 2. But against sharks, you approach it differently.

I have a list of "money eaters" each year that I throw out. These are guys that I think will go for higher prices than they're worth. This is how I reduce the other team's caps. I have given a projected value (based on VBD) to every player and bid on players below that number. I try and get the most 'value per pick'. With position scarcity you have to adjust on the fly, but it keeps me in the ballpark.

The one thing I have to have is strong RBs, so I weight them a little higher than most when assigning values for the top 20 backs.

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Dude Football Guy

Member # 1876 posted 07-07-2001 01:17 PM

Max, I'm going into my third auction draft. I have several strategies for nominating players:

1. I will first nominate guys I believe are overhyped, and who are sure to go at a premium high price. This gets the other GMs spending there cap quickly which gives me more buying power in later rounds. I like to throw out the R.Moss, K.Warner, M.Faulk, E.James, T.Gonzolez up front. I know these guys will go, and go for a premium price. What good do these guys do you if you have a bunch of also rans at the other positions because you blew all of your money.

2. Once the run on the premium guys has passed, I will nominate players that will surely end up on a roster, but are players I do not want. I will bid the minimum $1, and some other GM, not wanting me to get a steal will bid $2. I stop right there and let the others go at it. Sure, they may end up with a bargain, maybe, but they fill up position slots, keeping them out of the bidding when a player I really want is nominated. In this category, I will throw out a T.Couch, J.Plummer, R.Dayne, S.Alexander, T.Prentice, J.Morton, R.Ismail, R.Dudley, most hyped rookies who historically will not produce, and K and DEF I do not want. On the K and DEF, be careful very late in the auction.

3. Of course, if a player you want, usually your #1 is nominated, you have to get into the bidding.

4. I found very few bargains going early like you mentioned with Curtis Martin. However, I did manage to snag a few late round steals in our $200 cap auction last year by waiting: B.Griese $5, T.Owens $1, and F.Jones $1. If a GM has already blown half his cap on M.Faulk and R.Moss, plus has T.Prentice, and R.Ismail, plus a M.Brunnel on his squad, he's going to go conservative and not get in on a bidding war for a player like Martin. Martin then could be had for pretty cheap change.

5. A couple of must haves I got burned on last year is when I drafted M.Alstott early for $30, when later C.Garner went for $20, and T.Wheatley went for $7, who I had budgeted in the same price range. I also paid $27 for M.Westbrook when later a lot of other good/great WRs went for less than $20, such as Rod Smith.

6. I guess the short of it is I throw out overpriced players and players I don't want early, get into the bidding when I player I want is nominated, and wait for later bargains especially #2s in the auction.

Hope this made sense and helps.
Dude Football Guy

Member # 1876 posted 07-07-2001 01:27 PM

Max,

One more thing I wanted to mention about an Auction Draft. Last year, I made up a player/position budget that really helped me a whole lot during our draft. I knew when to bail on a guy who was going for way too much, when the bidding on that player exceeded what I had budgeted his worth to be.

On the other hand, I got some players that went way under value. Also, helps you manage your money during a draft so you don't have the "uh oh" going late when you realize you have $10 and still have to field several more positions. Also, on my budget, I also have a list of overhyped or junk players to nominate, to help keep track of that.

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OregonDuck90 Football Guy

Member # 1113 posted 07-07-2001 01:48 PM

First of all, my auction league is $150 cap with 11 teams and 16 player rosters. 3 QBs, 5 RB, 6WR/TE, 2K. Minimum bid $1.00. Open auction bidding.

I always employ the strategy during live auction drafts of throwing players out (when it's my turn to nominate) that I DON'T want, but that I know others do. Usually my first 7 or 8 times around, I throw out kickers that I think other people will waste their $$$ on, and worst case scenario, I get the kicker for the minimum salary $1.00. To me, anything spent over $1.00 on a kicker is a waste of money. So that's one strategy I use. I also get involved in the bidding on a LOT of players. I don't just sit there quiet and only bid on players that I want, because some owners pick up on that and realize that every time you're part of the bidding process you want that player. I bid on a lot of players to a point where I think that player should not go for less than that... for example, last year, I had 25 bucks left with 5 players still to buy, and I still wanted a stud WR. I had budgeted 18 bucks for my last WR, and Marvin Harrison and Randy Moss were still on the board. I didn't think I'd get either one, to be quite honest, but I wasn't going to let them go cheaply. The bidding for Moss started, and I jumped in... bidding him up and up and up. Well, I ended up with Moss for 17 bucks. I couldn't believe it. But I had it in my head that even though I didn't have much money left, I wasn't going to let Moss go for less than 20 (figuring that everyone would bid him up to 30 or more). Blessing in disguise, I guess.

Man I love auction drafts. Can't wait for them to get here!

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MoonPie Football Guy

Member # 1480 posted 07-07-2001 02:01 PM

I've been in the same auction league for

over 10 years. 90% of the owners are the original that started the league. The above listed strategies used to work, not any more. I have had to find other ways to build my strategy. Last year several owners subscribed to an online/pay service for there research. I refuse to pay. I do my own research. I have come up with 4 steps that I have used for the past 3 seasons. Results , 1st,2nd,2nd.

1. Pre-auction scouting. We have several meetings before our auction. I take this time to throw out some player names and see the reactions.

2. Mis-information. Lie, and lie some more. Some ownwers no what I'm up to so I try to just confuse them on my real intent. I might say that I'm high on Vick to one owner and tell another that he's a bust.

3.Know the "Thinking" of the other owners.

Are they home team bias? Who was on their roster from last year? Many fall in love with some players and will want them back.

If you know an owner wants a player in a bad way and you don't, make a pact with them to stay out of the bidding on a player you like and you will do the same for theirs. If they can be trusted.

4.Draft Money Schedule. Some like to put prices on individual players. I put a price on positions based on need/importance. Example:QB-$23,RB-$30,WR-$15,TE-$9,K-$5, and

DEF-$18

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The Kid Football Guy

Member # 696 posted 07-07-2001 02:29 PM

I have been in an auction draft for 3 years now and I can't imagine a draft being better than it. There is so much more strategy and the fact that any player can be had reduces any complaining about draft position. To answer the question, I agree with the strategy that you should never propose players you want, the longer they stay out there, the cheaper they will go, but that doesnt mean you shouldnt bid on other players. If Fred Taylor and Curtis Martin are still available and are the the top 2 rbs out there, say you really want Taylor and you think he is going to go real big, then there is Martin who you think will go about 15-20 dollars less than Taylor. The question you should ask yourself is not comparing Taylor at 70 to Martin at 55, it is comparing Taylor and the player/s you got with the left over money to Martin and a better second or even third player you are able to get with the left over money. Also, I hear alot about bucketing being used for drafts, but I found it very effective to use bucketing for auctions, it allows you to save your money if you see a player towards the bottom of the bucket rather than overspend on a guy near the top of the bucket. On another note, I play in a keeper auction league, that is the way go fellas, we use a three year rule to prevent guys from hoarding stud players, it really makes it seem like a real nfl team, but in this league sometimes you gotta overpay if you feel you are one or two players away.

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Maximus* Football Guy

Member # 1755 posted 07-07-2001 03:00 PM

Excellent...excellent stuff fellas.....As our feerless leader Mr. Bryant just said.....there has been more information put here on this thread than I've read in the 6-8 fantasy magazines I've bought already as well as the online services. Couple of things:

In my 4 years doing this auction stuff...I've made the playoffs all 3 of my 4 years and won the title once....leading the league in pts 2 of the 4 years. Not saying that to toot my horn....just mentioning it to say that I do "put my money where my mouth is"...

1. Due to the savvy nature of the owners in my 10-team $300 per owner salary cap auction league, I have to employ quite alot of the techniques mentioned. The two biggest reasons for my success thus far has been:

1. More knowledge than other owners of the little "nuiances" of the game like who has "upside" going into the year....preferable coaching situations with a more "pass oriented offensive coordinator or vice-versa....better offensive line play and upgrade....easier schedule vs. run/pass.....etc......These little things or knowing these little things has helped me get the RdSmiths last year for $21(normally $35+ and JBettis for $7(normally $25+......CuMart for $66(normally goes for $75+.......WE, if we want to make the playoffs in our auction leagues HAVE to buy players and GOOD players for less than their real value otherwise we would all field an average team.

2. That is why I like to employ(and I pick my spots believe me) of nominating a player I LIKE and WANT to have early in the draft when everyone has money......I did it two years ago when I brought up the normally $50+ CCarter very early in the draft with the Moss's,Harrisson's,JSmiths',Moulds etc...all available......I got him for $42 which is a steal of a deal for Carter......As I mentioned.....Got the normally priced $75 CuMart for only $66......ALOT of owners though they may have a ton of money.....only like to spend it on the Moss's,Faulk's and James's of the world and so that is why I subscribe to the theory of nominating at least ONE or TWO guys you really want EARLY in the draft....rather than later. If I would have waited later to bring up CuMart AFTER the Faulk's,James's,George's had been bought....his value would have skyrocketed to maybe even the $80 range where CuMart has no place being but because owners were desperate and waited to long.....that's what definitly would have happened.......

I love auctions too and can't wait for mine to occur in late August in Philly.....thanks again for all the great feedback and keep it coming....

-Maximus
 
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Stud RB value?

schu

Football Guy

Member # 567 posted 07-13-2001 03:38 PM

have you played a lot of poker? if you do, you'll find that over time you make more money from other's mistakes than your own brilliance. that in short is why i like to buy a top tier RB (James or Faulk this year) in an auction league.

Edge and Marshall will likely go right at proper value (slightly more than 40% of cap for most yardage systems). it's still a good way to get a ton of VBD points for your money. Taylor, George, Lewis, S.Davis will likewise go for their correct value (or slightly overpriced). but, it'd take two of these top backs to equal a tier one + a top 12-17 RB and it's very hard to get two. will Martin, Steward, Williams, Dillion, T. Davis, Staley, etc...all go for correct value? unlikely.

last year i waited and carefully checked off the RB list. i was rewarded with Ricky Watters for 6% of cap.

my advice, pay for a top RB, then let your buddys make a mistake and let your RB2 slip thru.

agree/disagree?

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beto

Football Guy

Member # 164 posted 07-13-2001 03:46 PM

Question - don't know how far this is from your point but... Once you pay 40% of cap early in the auction for Faulk/Edge how can you make sure that the next ten backs go for correct value? (since you can't really bid on them)

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schu

Football Guy

Member # 567 posted 07-13-2001 03:52 PM

good question.

1) i know my league. as i implied, history has shown me that tier 2 RB's go slightly (to hugely -- witness George for 40% last year) above true value. so i don't worry much.

2) i've been in an auction for 4 years now and i've learned that it's not a good idea to play policeman. if you jump in mid bidding war to raise prices you may cut someone off that was about to bid and narrow the bidding to yourself and another. let someone else play cop on tier 2 RB prices. bid only if you would absolutely want the RB on your team for that price.

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Pinball Wizard

Football Guy

Member # 2169 posted 07-13-2001 04:27 PM

I am in the middle of an online auction right now ... Faulk went for 19% of cap and James went for 20% (to the same team).

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I bet you say that to all the boys ...

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beto

Football Guy

Member # 164 posted 07-13-2001 04:32 PM

you're right I have tried to be a policeman on the wrong player a few times and ended up wasting a roster spot

my auction history would tend to agree with you as the #1 RBs go for 15-36% of cap then good #2s may slip for between 5% and 10%. Problem is this assumes some overpayment at the QB and WR positions. If most of your owners are RB savvy this may be risky.

Now that I've seen this strategy talked about a couple of times on the board I'm tempted to try it this year. Especially since it would keep me from the temptation of being the policeman.

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Bill Young

Football Guy

Member # 1351 posted 07-13-2001 04:32 PM

T & L,

Faulk at 19%; James at 20%?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Our league is going to an auction format for the first time this year! I can only hope that that happens in our league!!! Somehow, I doubt it, though!

I had a posting about auction budgeting, and most people who responded said those backs would go for better than 40% of the cap!

--------------------

Just my 2 cents (scents?) worth!

Bill Young

MRFL Secretary, Statistician, and Archivist

2000, 1992 MRFL Champions!

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iwascool

Football Guy

Member # 274 posted 07-13-2001 06:35 PM

I agree with taking one of the top 2-3 backs. But my $ limit is based on what I can support the other studs for. If I take Faulk at 40% then I need to have a plan in place the will allow me to go to around 38% of the cap for E.James.

I have only had 2 fo the top studs (T. Davis and F. Taylor in their injury years). With a good history of the leagues, you can reasonably predict what the top RBs will go for.

The key to making this work is having several budgets setup in advance of the draft so you know where the maximum production for your (very few) $ are for QB, TE, WR.

I am currently in a silent auction draft that has RB going at 50% of cap. I love the stud RBs, but at that point I couldn't find a way to justify the $. I have been forced into a 'sit and wait' which I have never done before.

You can go strong, but you better know how to maximize the team's (starters) points as you do it.

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tmbigdog

Football Guy

Member # 2262 posted 07-13-2001 07:07 PM

This will be the fifth year for our league using an auction format. I just completed a historical salary analysis which shows that the top RB has gone for anywhere from 40% of cap to as high as 52%. (We do have a modified holdover rule. Each team can holdover one running back. This adds some measure of inflation to these values.)

Interestingly, my review shows that my league tends to fully value or overvalue the top 2-4 RBs, but tends to significantly undervalue the RB's in the 5-15 range. I agree with Schu that it makes sense to pay full value for one of the top guys if you can snag your second RB at a discount.

By the way, this just in: The guy who got Faulk and James is going to win that league.

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OregonDuck90

Football Guy

Member # 1113 posted 07-13-2001 10:11 PM

I always go for two stud running backs. I'm a believer that you can't win without them. In my auction leagues, I spend most of my money on RB's, a bit on QB's, one good WR, and the rest I wing it, assuming that I've studied better than the other owners and can pick up sweet $1.00 RB's and WR's at the end to fill out the roster. Definitely. Pay the cash for the stud RB's. They're worth it.

If you get them early, a lot of times you'll get them for less than you expect, because everyone else is holding back, expecting to save their money to control the draft at the end when everyone is low on money.

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schu

Football Guy

Member # 567 posted 07-14-2001 05:05 PM

thanks for the great responses guys.

i agree. faulk+edge=game over.
 
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Assigning Player Values

ShutOUT

Football Guy

Member # 2742 posted 07-19-2001 12:11 AM

It has been my experience in my short, yet successful, FF campaign that one of the hardest things to do in an auction draft is properly assign dollar values to your players. I toyed with this idea a bit, and by standing on strong shoulders, such as Joe, and others, I came up with a system that takes VBD to a new level - but is still based upon the principles that make VBD so simple, elegant, and successful.

I've drafted in an auction draft both years that I've been playing FF. I was skillful/lucky enough to win it all my first year - and was runner-up in both leagues I took part in last year.

Much of the credit must be given to Joe - for finding his principles of VBD are what really set me apart from every owner in my leagues in the first place.

What I do is this:

Using an excel spreadsheet, I generate stat projections for every player in the positions we draft (in this case, WR-QB-RB-TE-PK-ST). I do this seperately for each position for a few reasons which will become apparent shortly. Then I filter the stats through my league scoring system, which generates projected league scoring. Then using a baseline of the lowest scoring player I expect to be drafted at each position (see below on how to do this), I generate a "value" for every player at every position.

SOUND FAMILIAR?? IT SHOULD. THIS IS WHERE I TAKE IT A STEP FURTHER.

In an auction draft, those with savvy go into the draft with ideas of what they want to pay for individual players. These owners will frequently come out ahead. What I do is make determining the dollar values as easy as determining the scoring value. Don't rely on your gut - let the math do the work for you.

Once you have all of your players with values assigned to them, cut and paste them all onto one spreadsheet - make sure to line up the values so that they all line up. Then sort them based on the values. Now you have a simple draft cheat cheet. What next? Start a new column for "$value". Then sort everyone by position. Assign every player you believe will be drafted a $value of your minimum bid (in my case $1). This number should equal the number of teams in your league*the number of players on each team. Some leagues don't limit the number of players in a certain group, so you'll want to judge as best you can how many QB's, RB's, WR's, etc. each team will draft. For example, in a 10 team league you may have 30 QB's drafted (some folks like me, typically carry 3 QB's) and 40 RB's (4 RB's per team) at any rate, the final number must equal your roster limits.

Once this is done, resort by dollar value, then position. This will put seperate drafted players from non-drafted players and sort them by position. Then, add up the total $ to be spent in your league (my league has a $250 cap with 10 owners = $2500. Subtract the number you've assigned already (I have a roster limit of 18 per team * 10 teams * $1 = $180; subtract $180 from $2500 = $2320) this is what you have remaining to allocate to players.

Next, add up the total # of "value" points. Divide your dollars remaining by this number. The value you get (which should be under 1.00) is how much, in dollars, each point of value is worth. WOW!! (in my case this was 0.241616 or $0.24 per point of value)

Now multiply this number * the "value" of each player (don't forget to add the $1 already allocated) and you have a maximum $ value to spend on any individual player!! If you've done this right you should get your total league cap if you add up all of the projected salaries together.

This really works, and has REALLY helped me in my drafts because I can print it all out and sort it any way I like.

Here's some tips:

1) color code your players by position - very helpful, and really lets you see the value distribution positionally. You can adjust strategies on the fly.

2) add colums for 90%, 80%, and 70% of value. I usually try to get 80% or better value on all but my most coveted players.

One thing I did this year was attempt to account for starters. Starting players should have, on average, slightly higher values than non-starters, since, barring injury, they are the ones you should pay slightly more to get.

The method I used is imperfect but seems to have worked rather well. I sorted again based on $value then position. Then I created another column, "starter value". In this column, I created another value using a baseline derived from the lowest scoring starter at each position. Multiply this number by the decimal you used to create your original $value from ($0.241616). You should get another $value. Add this value to each starter (I added a minimum of $1 to those starters who ended up adding less that $1).

Then what I did was subtract the total number of dollars I added to projected starters from the non-starters at each position (remember, your total $'s spent must equal the total cap room of all teams). I did this by muliplying the negative value of nonstarters by the $0.241616 per point of value (starter value * 0.241616) this gave me a negative dollar amount, which I subtracted from each player's $value. Since no player could go under $1, I had a few dollars left to remove, which I removed from the bottom up and removed based on players I felt deserved the cut.

Obviously, I like stats and I like to play with these numbers. But this system has REALLY helped me in my auction drafts. Reading this, it sounds difficult, but once you play with it, it's quite easy, since many of the formulas can be cut and pasted in excel. I hope someone finds value in this and if anyone has suggestions, I'd love to hear them.

During the draft, I simply bid on just about every player, but I never go above the 70% $value except for those players I really feel I need - and I NEVER go over my max. Worst case scenario is I get a player I perhaps didn't REALLY want at very good value. Best scenario is that I get a GREAT player at GREAT value. -Or maybe someone else gets a player at much higher than they ever should have gone for. Any way you shake it, you come out ahead.

If anyone has questions, or would like further explanation, I'll be happy to help you. I'll even send you a copy of my the draft sheet I created - for educational purposes of course, since the numbers I created will be so different than what your leagues rules will dictate.

ShutOUT

OUT
stickboy6307

Football Guy

Member # 1708 posted 07-19-2001 11:29 AM

Shutout,

Nice writeup, easily understood. I was planning on following a similar approach but have a couple of issues that you and I haven't solved yet:

1. Your pricing assumes that each team will completely fill out their roster to the full 18 players. In my leagues, there are a number of owners who will pay more for the top players and go for a smaller roster. I try to project actual total roster size for the league into the equation so I can get a better price constant, but it's still tough to project.

2. You have projected the top $$ that should be paid for each player and play the value system. Unfortunately, your opponents have not done this which will skew the actual bidding in many different ways. This is a good method to determine what you think makes sense in terms of $ value but you still need to adjust dynamically to what the actual bids are.

3. I would rather allocate 85% of my cap to starters, and 15% to backups (or maybe 80-20). If you do this up front then it makes the calculations a bit easier for the non-starters.

4. Take a look at tiering, i.e., mark by color each drop in 32 points (2 fantasy points per game) in VBD between players. This will show you which players are easy substitutes for each other, and which ones are worth an extra 2 points per game.

Stickboy

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tmbigdog

Football Guy

Member # 2262 posted 07-19-2001 05:24 PM

Excellent post, ShutOUT. A couple of thoughts:

Most auction leagues utilize some form of holdovers. How do you compensate for holdover inflation? What I've tried is to do is subtract the sum of the heldover salaries from the total salary pool. I also then subtract the VBD points for the heldover players from the total. I use those adjusted numbers for a new basis point and recalculate salaries for all players not being heldover.

Even a few holdovers (my league keeps three per roster) can have a drastic effect on salary. My impression is that the average owner doesn't fully account for inflation, and thus most holdover leagues probably undervalue the free agent market as a whole.

Anyone with experience in holdover auction leagues agree?

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ShutOUT

Football Guy

Member # 2742 posted 07-19-2001 05:56 PM

Good thoughts tmbigdog. Actually I'm in that exact situation right now. Our league holds over 3 players at a 10% salary increase OR the average salary of the five salries that match the five scorers in that player's scoring tier (whichever is higher). Plus 1 rookie at no increase of salary.

That's another post - but the point is that there are 2 ways to look at it.

1) since I know what upcoming salaries are going to be, I can use this draft sheet, in this format to determine whether or not a player I wish to keep has good value for me. Simply compare the new salary with my $value in my chart. If it's at or below the value I wish to pay, I'll keep him.

2) as far as value the flip side of the coin goes, once I know which players will be kept and at which salary, I will adjust the total points of "value" and salary to reflect these players being out of the pool. Then redo the whole thing based on the new situation. That's the great thing about excel - easy to make changes and resort.

Stickboy327 -

1. In my case, the rosters are set in stone. But you seem to be correct, the best you can do is estimate as best you can the total roster size of each team.

2. As with anything in a draft, you need to be prepared to adjust your strategy on the fly. If there has been a run on RB's and I still have yet to get one, I must make a priority to get one soon.

3. I like your idea about allocating a percentage of the cap to starters and non-starters up front and I toyed with the idea back and forth. Ultimately, I didn't want a number that I simply "assigned" to affect the "purity" of my numbers. I fel a need to have all of the number derived somehow from within the game itself - not "me". Looking back, perhaps I could get a statistic for the % of points that starters score for a fantasy team vs. scoring for players considered nonstarters and then use that percentage for allocating cap... am I crazy - maybe, maybe not.

4. Good idea - before I know it, my cheatsheet will be so colorful that they'll market it as kids' wallpaper.
Strategies
Darren LeCraw

Football Guy

Member # 1076 posted 07-22-2001 03:14 PM

I just thought I'd give some tips on how to build a very good team in the Bid2Play auction leagues.

1) Track the players. Get a listing of the top 25 QB's, 50 RB's, 50 WR's, 20 TE's, 20 PK's. Make sure to mark off each player as they come up and even write down how much they went for.

This will allow you to see if there will be tons of good players left in the final round or if there will be none (this does happen).

2) Keep an eye on the roster needs of the rest of the league. If you see that 10 TEs have being taken and Freddie Jones and Gonzo still haven't appeared then you should wait and steal them cheap.

On the other hand if you see that alot of people are waiting then grab someone decent quickly. If there are only 3 rounds left and 9 people need TEs then you can be sure that Gonzo will go for way too much and you should take Chad Lewis now for normal price like $2 or $3.

3) Go for balance. All 10 of your players will start each week. You can't afford to have Faulk($98) + Redmond($1) + Morris($1) and expect to win. For that same $100 you can EASILY get Ahman Green, Terrell Davis, and Curtis Martin, or some other mixture of the second tier RBs.

4) Don't let other teams steal players cheap. This is a tricky rule to keep but effective if done right. If David Boston is about to be won for $1 then you HAVE to bid him up. Don't go any higher than you have to but even if you only bump him up to $10 it will help.

5) DO NOT spend more than $1 on a kicker. NEVER break this rule. Only 12 kickers are taken in total. If something bad happens to your kicker during the season all you have to do is pick up the 13th best kicker. Save your money for positions that matter.

TEs can be worth slightly more for the top guys but very often you can get Riemersma, Lewis, Wycheck, etc for only $1.

7) DO NOT bid on players like Conway, Biakabatuka, Chrebet, Levens, etc. Players like that will be available in the 9th round when anyone who doesn't get bid on will get a second chance. So don't waste a roster spot on mediocre players until you are forced to in the 9th round. But I would seriously consider making sure your roster is full before then.

8) DON'T save your money thinking you will need it for free agents. Everyone starts at a fresh $200 for free agents after the draft is over.

9) The last few seconds of every round are the most important. Don't feel secure that your $20 on Torry Holt will last thosr final 8 seconds. I and many other will steal him from you. You must do the same. Catch sleeping owners off guard. Sit quietly watching the bids and deciding which couple of players are going too cheap. Then with 20-30 seconds left quickly up the bids on them. You'll come away with some nice steals this way.

------

These are just a few rules I've been using. I hope they help everyone.

[ July 22, 2001: Message edited by: Darren LeCraw ]

[ July 22, 2001: Message edited by: Darren LeCraw ]

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Maurile Tremblay

Football Guy

Member # 711 posted 07-22-2001 03:45 PM

I've also noticed that RBs tend to get more expensive as the draft progresses, while WRs and TEs tend to get less expensive.

For instance, Jamal Lewis may go for $48 in round 2, while Stephen Davis will go for $68 in round 7. So jump on the good RBs early.

On the other hand, Shannon Sharpe may go for $17 in the first or second round, while Freddie Jones goes for $6 in the seventh round. So if you're going to bid more than $1 for a TE, wait till the later rounds.

[ July 22, 2001: Message edited by: Maurile Tremblay ]
Auction and VBD
Mordraken

Football Guy

Member # 1779 posted 08-02-2001 04:59 PM

Not so sure about these numbers... here are a few points/questions...

1) The numbers are rounded up... while this sounds like a small thing, when using these numbers, it is critical to remember that this is a HIGHER dollar value than you should spend - otherwise you're paying more for the player than you should.

2) It assumes any player who doesn't make it to a positive VBD "point" is worth $1. On the contrary, I think they are actually worth $0, since there will be a player at another position with better potential. However, since the minimum bid is $1, I understand why this was done... Just another thing to keep in mind.

3) It values some "bench" players at more than $1. Some examples - 4 QBs valued at $2 or $3, 7 RBs valued at $2-$7, 7 WRs valued at $2... Doesn't this contradict one of the principles of Value based drafting? If the player worse than the worst "starting" player, then his value is negative or zero? However, I do like being able to value up on the best of the bench players...

4) The total value of all the "starting" players is greater than the sum of the # teams X the salary cap for each team. This doesn't even take into account the people on the bench... I used 12 teams, with a $100 cap per team, 16 players drafted per team... Of course with this scenario, the max spent by all the teams is 12 X 100 = $1,200. However, the value of the top QB, 2 RBs, 3WRs, 1 TE, 1 K, 1 DEF = $1,266. This could be related to the problem identified in #1, but anyone using these dollar values will run out of money real fast.

Here's a quick solution for those of you that don't want to do the math yourself... take 70% of the value on the cheat sheet, and use that to draft your team. That way you KNOW you'll always get a 30% return on your investment (well, actually more around 42.9%, but who's a math expert anyway... but then again, the values are inflated, so who knows...).

For those that really want to get into the numbers, you have to first split your salary cap into starting and non-starting (I ususally use 90% starting, 10% bench). The 90% gets divided out among all the starting players based on their % of the total VBD points. Same deal for every other player. in all cases you round down (showing you the maximum price that the player will remain profitable).

Questions/Comments?
 
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If you are a FBG member, Dodds does an excellent auction article every year. Even though the content is similar most years, I read it a couple of times every year before my draft because is sums up everything! The title is usually something like "The Perfect Auction."

Again, if you are a member, here is a link to last year's article. The Perfect Auction

 
Also, should I look to nail some premier players or try to go with a more rounded team? What has worked for you guys in the past?
This and the rest have probably been answered 10 diff ways but I'll just tack on that there is no "right" way on this, plenty who will swear by either method, and plenty who will have success (or failure) both ways. I do auction but it's redraft - so unlike ours, you have to take into account player's age/mileage.
 
Also, should I look to nail some premier players or try to go with a more rounded team? What has worked for you guys in the past?
This and the rest have probably been answered 10 diff ways but I'll just tack on that there is no "right" way on this, plenty who will swear by either method, and plenty who will have success (or failure) both ways.
That's the way it appears to me as well. I think probably the best advice I've seen is to come in with a plan of some sort, but be ready to deviate if things don't go as you suspected.It also seems accurate rankings ---> accurate pricing ---> a successful auction. Valuing players beforehand is where I plan on putting most of my effort. Obviously the first key will be coming up with (or finding) good stat projections.

Then, I plant to take into account:

-what I think their value is vs. "popular" value

-long-term potential (for dynasty)

-league scoring rules (mostly to determine position priorities/$$ allocation)

-position dropoff or tiering

My biggest question mark at this point is what % of $$ to allocate to starters vs. non-starters and then by position. Our league hasn't finalized the roster positions yet so, I can't even make those decisions yet.

Also I'd like to thank everyone for the advice so far. I'm really looking forward to this auction/draft. September can't get here soon enough!

 
I agree with your summary above. Also, it seems like the person who has a little more money saved at the end can get the better cheap players. Often with the ability to shut out some teams with a $2-3 bid (based on $200 Auction budget - Roster 18 players).

 
Jayrod said:
I think probably the best advice I've seen is to come in with a plan of some sort, but be ready to deviate if things don't go as you suspected.
Yep - you could say this about any draft really, but it's much more important in an auction because it's so much more wide open than a "regular" draft.
Valuing players beforehand is where I plan on putting most of my effort.
That is very important (to help you have a strat going in).
Obviously the first key will be coming up with (or finding) good stat projections.
Mostly disagree, ie anything other than general/casual stat projections is IMO a huge waste of time - but if it helps you great, to each their own.
Then, I plant to take into account:-what I think their value is vs. "popular" value-long-term potential (for dynasty)-league scoring rules (mostly to determine position priorities/$$ allocation)-position dropoff or tiering
Yep all very important, esp that first one IMO. If you can get a feel for how others value players, you'll know how to react accordingly.
My biggest question mark at this point is what % of $$ to allocate to starters vs. non-starters and then by position. Our league hasn't finalized the roster positions yet so, I can't even make those decisions yet.
Yeah and even then it's not easy. Again diff. schools of thought with no real right answer - some play it riskier and put more $ into starters hoping for no injury or general bust, others are safer or more balanced. Basically or generally, I think values are similar to non-auction, ie RBs are at a premium, etc.
 

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