Gary Coal Man
Footballguy
If everything about this case was the exact same except Darren Wilson was black instead of white would the anger over the incident be the same? If not, then how the police handled the incident was not the key to the anger.
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Looting in Missouri after cops shoot 18 year old (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter Otis
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jonessed
Footballguy
Seems like the GJ is in by far the best position to judge the witnesses. Do you think they are all in on the conspiracy or just incompetent? Why would someone that trusts the judgement of the GJ be more biased than someone who read a few articles summarizing what they saw and heard?
Todem
Footballguy
I was listening to a local sports radio show down here for about 5 minutes (a show I rarely if ever listen to because the host is an utter moron who was a heavy hard drug user, hence his complete parnoid ****ed up perception of the world around him) as I flip between various sports talk shows on my morning drive (between commercials). Sid Rosenberg who like I said is a total hack to begin with had some guy on (I don't even remember his name) ranting and raving about the injustice that occurred and completely believing without a shawdow of a doubt the fatal shots were fired at Brown from a distance of 150 feet!!!!!!!
He said that emphatically. This from a newspaper writer...a journalist in the NY media. I wish I got his name (from NY and African American).
People are going to believe whatever they want. There is no use in arguing with idiotic morons. And the reason I am going into the name calling on some of this, is I call a spade a spade. If you believe Wilson can hit a guy with deadly accuracy with a service weapon from 150 ft moving.....well then he needs to be in special op's fighting Isis. And yeah your a complete idiot.
It's virtually impossible to hit him once yet alone 6 times.
Then again the government would have you believe Lee Harvey Oswald killed Kennedy with deadly accuracy from the book depository window with a POS Italian rifle and was able to get off several shots seconds within each other with a single bolt action rifle. LOL.
It's irresponsible lunatics like this guy writing in newspapers and on the internet that is a huge part of the problem. People are ignorant enough to believe anything they read on the internet as the word of God.
He said that emphatically. This from a newspaper writer...a journalist in the NY media. I wish I got his name (from NY and African American).
People are going to believe whatever they want. There is no use in arguing with idiotic morons. And the reason I am going into the name calling on some of this, is I call a spade a spade. If you believe Wilson can hit a guy with deadly accuracy with a service weapon from 150 ft moving.....well then he needs to be in special op's fighting Isis. And yeah your a complete idiot.
It's virtually impossible to hit him once yet alone 6 times.
Then again the government would have you believe Lee Harvey Oswald killed Kennedy with deadly accuracy from the book depository window with a POS Italian rifle and was able to get off several shots seconds within each other with a single bolt action rifle. LOL.
It's irresponsible lunatics like this guy writing in newspapers and on the internet that is a huge part of the problem. People are ignorant enough to believe anything they read on the internet as the word of God.
Todem
Footballguy
Your wasting your time with this pseudo intellectual. Just wasting your time.
Move on.
jonessed
Footballguy
The Rams and the NFL are business entities. Their response to a player with regard to how they conduct themselves while at work (and even off the job) has nothing to do with free speech.
mcintyre1
Footballguy
That's just not even remotely true. Read the evidence before you mouth off,
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timschochet
Footballguy
Umm, you may have the wrong guy here. I agreed with the Grand Jury's decision. I've never written anything else. The correct decision was not to indict, based on the evidence given. This case should never have gone to trial. It was the just outcome.
I don't believe in conspiracies as a general rule.
Stinger Ray
Footballguy
Witness 10 stated Brown did make a motion that appeared like he was reaching for his pants.
"If it was like a shoulder shrug or him pulling his pants up, I’m not sure."
timschochet
Footballguy
He's not the only one. Lots of people are repeating this nonsense. And yet when I try to point it out, I become a "pseudo-intellectual".
mcintyre1
Footballguy
I wouldn't dismiss that as a possibility. After being told Nov. 21 to ignore the Missouri statute that didn't comply with a Federal Supreme Court decision one of the GJurors asked "And supreme court decisions override Missouri laws?"
jonessed
Footballguy
This should be what it's about. It's wishful thinking at this point though. The reality is this case and the current protests are inextricably linked.
Jim11
Footballguy
So you watch Olbermann, biggest jerk on TV. Having said that, the union should have just ignored the Rams players.
jonessed
Footballguy
Jim11
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Actually you're an even bigger part of the problem, IMO, because you choose to respond to ridiculous strawman arguments rather than the very real ones that have been made in this thread. Nobody here has asserted that Brown was 150 feet away. Why don't you answer the specific concerns made in this forum, instead of some crazy nut you heard? Are they too pseudo-intellectual for you?
Gary Coal Man
Footballguy
Wilson said nothing of the such. The "demon" comment was completely unrelated to the alleged charge. Wilson said that during the altercation at the car he looked up and the look of anger on Brown's face was such that he looked like a demon.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
We can do stupid hypos all day. You can offer up this one (answer- they would have been angry but not nearly as angry) and I can counter by asking if the police would have handled the subsequent events the same if they'd happened in a white neighborhood (answer- almost certainly not).
But that's a waste of time. It happened how it happened, and it's clear that the community's initial anger about the shooting was turned up to 11 by the behavior of the local police and politicians in the hours/days/weeks that followed.
timschochet
Footballguy
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
It is also not logical to walk in the middle of the road. You seem very hung up on the fact that it makes no sense to charge a police officer that is shooting at you. I agree. I also think it makes no sense to risk going to jail for a cigar.
As with any story in life there will be varying degrees of what actually happened. I don't get caught up in determining was it a full on charge. There is no doubt he was moving toward Wilson. Even if he was just slowly walking and kept doing it after being told to stop I don't have an issue with Wilson shooting him.
Walking, charging, skipping, whatever. It doesn't matter. You are trying to get closer. At some point that distance is not safe.
timschochet
Footballguy
Thank you. I stand corrected. Even so, I wasn't aware that people were arguing what a charge is. Put it this way, if Brown was moving at a quick pace toward Wilson and continued to do so after Wilson started firing that would be enough for me to conclude that the killing was justified. I'm not going to parse what a charge is. Moving slowly, or not moving at all, is not a charge.
timschochet
Footballguy
mcintyre1
Footballguy
tom22406
Footballguy
250 pages easyNo new evidence has been produced in at least a week, yet this thread keeps churning.......Same players, same arguments, rinse and repeat.
And nothing will ever be settled
I was just getting the info off the PBS chart. 37, 41, 42, 45, and 46 said the witness was down when Wilson shot. 12, 14, 16, 22, 25, 35, 41, 43, 45, 46, 47, and 64 said Brown was running away. 16, 25, 35, 41, 45, and 46 said Brown was knelling. That accounts for almost all the other witnesses.
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This can be repeated as much as you want but it doesn't mean that it is true. The facts of the case matter greatly as that is what everybody is arguing. Where your opinion goes off course is that simply because you do not understand something or a procedure does not mean that it is wrong.
1. Suspects names are never released in a criminal investigation unless they are seen as a danger to the public and need to be immediately taken into custody. Not the case in this instance.
2. Experts on mental health have performed studies and determined that an officer should not provide a statement for the first 72 hours after an officer involved shooting unless it is to gain information on an ongoing criminal activity.
3. There was more transparency in this instance than most police shootings. The grand Jury process although unique was purposeful in that it provided a wealth of information. Also unprecedented in my view is the immediate release of Grand Jury testimony which if read without bias or agenda would lead most reasonable people to a conclusion of no true bill.
This case exploded because the narrative put out right away smoldered and then the flame was lit by people in the media and typical race baiters jumped on it. This then caused many to provide false stories which in turn worked against Mike Brown. Like when 4 people say he was shot in the back and science proved it wrong.
I do think lessons were learned and applied to the Rice incident and more will be learned there. The reactions of pro-Mike Brown are very similar to any defense attorney in a court case. Poke holes in individual facts in hopes of casting doubt because when someone looks at all the facts together the conclusion is simple.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
200 pages on this, but then it reflects larger society which is obsessed with this contretemps - and heck so is our president.
I've concluded this is a local issue for Ferguson. The insane attention spent on this nationally is just plain wrong-headed.
The problem in Ferguson is the incredible political apathy of the populace, they don't show up to vote, plain and simple. Their mayor and police chief are non-responsive to their concerns? No kidding. In a 60-70% black town they have almost no black councilmen, a white mayor and a white police chief. Start with voting and move from there.
The rest of the country is not having these problems by and large, anecdotal incidents aside, I have a really hard time seeing racial animus here in this instance with Wilson and nationally with police forces. That part has never been shown.
It's turned into a reality show, a great big NCIS Ferguson.
I will say that the release of transcripts and testimony from a grand jury proceeding, and maybe some of the issues presented to the GJ, seem wrong on the face of it. But again, look at the DA and look at the makeup of the electorate, why is he there?
I've concluded this is a local issue for Ferguson. The insane attention spent on this nationally is just plain wrong-headed.
The problem in Ferguson is the incredible political apathy of the populace, they don't show up to vote, plain and simple. Their mayor and police chief are non-responsive to their concerns? No kidding. In a 60-70% black town they have almost no black councilmen, a white mayor and a white police chief. Start with voting and move from there.
The rest of the country is not having these problems by and large, anecdotal incidents aside, I have a really hard time seeing racial animus here in this instance with Wilson and nationally with police forces. That part has never been shown.
It's turned into a reality show, a great big NCIS Ferguson.
I will say that the release of transcripts and testimony from a grand jury proceeding, and maybe some of the issues presented to the GJ, seem wrong on the face of it. But again, look at the DA and look at the makeup of the electorate, why is he there?
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Todem
Footballguy
You know I respect Tobias and Henry Ford. They are solid posters and solid rational people. But everyone on internet boards has an opinion. Some are outrageous, some make a lot of sense. And some are utter trolling and BS (Tim..cough Tim..cough)
I agree with Tobias that there is a lot of the anger about the process. I believe you are hearing that from most intelligent, normal people. I respect Henry's real life experience as a lawyer and dealing with police corruption etc. It's great to have people who have real life experience and share that. I also tend to try and contribute as well in other area's on this board (Stocks, investing, video games, music and of course FF) but I can get hot, emotional and sometimes crass and be an ####### just like any human being can. And for that I apologize to some members here in the community. I am a passionate person, with strong morals and beliefs and sometimes these type of threads can get heated, emotional and lead to some things we don't want to really say...but they come out.
But don't tell me the majority of the protests (especially in Ferguson) are not about the perception that an 18 year old black teenager held his hands up to clearly surrender and was gunned down in cold blood and the police lied about everything, covered it up, or whatever you want to believe. Now the Police department did nothing to instill confidence in the community. Agreed. Their actions were not great the moment he hit the ground, agreed. I never disagreed with any of that. My bone was always about the incredible lack of common sense people in this country are displaying, and teaching their kids. It's crazy. Hate breeds hate. Ignorance breeds ignorance. And criminals breed criminals (hence the 9-10 year old kids I witnessed on TV the night of the rioting after the no indictment news came down, watching their parents loot stores SMH.)
Also the lack of common sense being used with the real physical evidence we have coupled with credible testimony. We can sit here and debate who is credible who is not....till we are blue in the face. But if you're really using your common sense (not talking about Tim as he obviously has little to zero unless that is his internet schtick and his attempt to keep his street cred as an internal troll because Tim is exactly that and this thread proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt) I truly believe most reasonable human beings are coming to the conclusion that The officer had little choice but to fire his weapon and unfortunately kill a young man. It was a tragedy. One that could have easily been prevented by Michael Brown just doing what he was told to do by an officer of the law. And the race card being played on this case it appalling. If this were a black police officer...this would have been a non-story. Guaranteed. If it were a black police officer and white kid.....non story guaranteed.
Anyway. I wanted to get that off my chest as I like the FFA and think there are a lot great posters and topics and all kinds of silly nonsense we can have fun with. But this was a serious matter and one I do find as a temperature check that in our country there is still an overwhelming feeling black inner city male youths are still oppressed, targeted and killed and unfortunately I don't think it will ever change. As long as that message is being instilled by each and every generation of inner city African Americans it will never change. Statistics rarely if ever lie.
It's a shame. Under a black president we did not budge towards better race relations in the big picture. It's still black vs white in our country in the inner cities and urban neighborhoods. Call it like I see it. And if a black person assimilate's out of the ghetto, inner city, projects or whatever you want to deem as underprivileged black communities and makes something out of themselves as every person in this country has an opportunity to do...then they are labeled as uncle toms...or not black enough.
It's such a shame. But in my lifetime I don't think this line of thinking is ever going to change. There is far too many skeletons in the closet dating back to the slavery days to overcome, despite the incredible equality black people do truly have in our great country. It's there...go stake your claim (I have a few close friends who did and can't believe the ignorance, laziness and sense of entitlement they are seeing by some of the inner city people black, white, latin does not matter). If you really want it, you can earn it, work for it, strive for it. It's a matter of what you believe and how your raised to think.
OK enough. Moving on.
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CowboysFromHell
Footballguy
I wonder how folks, and in particular how/if the NFL would handle it differently, if a player(s) took the field and struck a "Heil Hitler" pose?
G
General Tso
Guest
Yeah, it's pretty sad isn't it? It's abundantly clear who has agendas here. I learned a long time ago as a student at Penn involved with the liberal groups - some of the worst racists in the world are liberals.No new evidence has been produced in at least a week, yet this thread keeps churning.......Same players, same arguments, rinse and repeat.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
1. A police shooting is not a standard criminal investigation. The reason suspect names aren't released in normal investigation is that there's really no significant upside in doing so that counteracts the downsides. Here there's an obvious one- law enforcement accountability.
2. If you're telling me that someone thinks its better for people involved in an incident to wait 72 hours to record their recollections of the incident for some reason, I'm gonna need a link. And the mental health concerns are going to have to be overwhelming to counteract the obvious benefit to the administration of justice from fresh, clear accounts of controversial incidents.
3. Although transparency is only part of the problem here, there's no way there was more transparency here than in other recent police killings. I've tracked a few recent ones (Tamir Rice, Oscar Grant, Eric Garner) and the approach there was nothing remotely close to the "circle the wagons" approach of Ferguson/St. Louis County.
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rick6668
Footballguy
The long post earlier summarized Brown's movements, I looked at the testimony of some of those who said he was running away, kneeling, down etc.
http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=710325&page=198#entry17533340
Most of the ones I looked at have testimony that directly contradicts what the physical evidence showed. (I do not have time to look at them all)
Most specifically,
“And the police just kept firing and saying something to the boy, and kept firing. The boy kept saying, I got, my hands is up, I don't have anything, what do you want. And next thing I know, I don't know where it hit, but when the boy fell, there was blood shot everywhere. ”
Read original – Grand Jury Volume 17, page 212
Page 212- (Right after this statement)
A: ...And the police just stand over him and shot him like he was playing darts at a board.
[SIZE=1.1em]“Mike Brown started walking back at him [/SIZE][SIZE=1.1em]okay, okay, okay, hands up[/SIZE][SIZE=1.1em] and he just started shooting at him”[/SIZE]
Read original – Grand Jury Volume 13, page 219
Page 221 -
Q: ..could you tell how far Mike Brown and the officer was when you saw him shoot six or seven times?
A. I'd say less than 15 feet.
...
A. And the officer was backing up as he was firing.
...
Q: Did he appear to be coming toward the officer in an aggressive way?
A: I mean that's subjective.
Q: I'm talking about your opinion.
A: See, I kind of have a mixed opinion on it.
Q: OK
A: I take the hands going down and moving quicker towards the cop as either I'm falling to my death or okay, you've already shot me a couple of times, I'm coming at you.
[SIZE=1.1em]Q:[/SIZE][SIZE=1.1em] So when you saw [/SIZE][SIZE=1.1em]Mike Brown with his arms up[/SIZE][SIZE=1.1em] coming towards the officer, he did not appear to be rushing the officer to you?” [/SIZE]
A: “Not at all, not at all.”
Q: “Did he appear to be charging the officer?”
A: “Not at all, not at all.”
Read original – Grand Jury Volume 16, page 60
Page 63 -
A: He was still standing.
Q: Standing and walking towards the officer
A: Yes
Page 70-
Q: OK, when you initially talked to the FBI, and we've listened to your statements, or Kathi Alizadeh and I have, there is information in there that the officer was standing over him while he laid on the ground and finished him off.
A: You know, I said that out of an assumption based on me being from where I'm from and that can be the only assumption I can have.
...
Q: Well you told them that you saw the officer stand over Michael Brown and empty his clip into his body and finish him off, didn't you say that?
A: Well, you know, I did say that, but it was based on an assumption.
...
Q: You told them you saw Michael Brown get shot in the back and that's not true is it?
A: That's not true based on the truth of the autopsy coming out.
...
Q: And you told them that you saw the officer within an arm's length of Michael Brown shoot him in the head and you didn't see that did you?
A: Based on an assumption.
Show me some testimony from someone who said he had his hands up that's not one of these and we can review the rest of the testimony for discrepancies.
I haven't seen one yet, but it's hard to read everything.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I don't think it's the same thing at all. They are in St. Louis, speaking out can mean a lot of things, like just general support for the community.
Gary Coal Man
Footballguy
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
At what point do you determine that safety is an issue then? At 20 feet away? 15 feet away? 9 feet away?
Would seem pretty illogical to base your whole conclusion on the fact that a suspect moving toward an officer should be allowed to continue to move toward that officer for an undecided amount of distance.
Remember we already know for a fact that there was an altercation inside the police vehicle.
This woman could be exactly correct about what was happening. Perhaps Brown was in fact trying to surrender. He could have been incredibly out of breath and practically vomiting from his recent sprint. I remember the first day of conditioning for High School sports. There were always several kids that almost immediately looked like they were going to die. Wilson now sees a huge man lumbering toward him in an odd manner. Tells him to stop repeatedly, but he doesn't. Wilson now panics.
Even if this woman was spot on, I don't think Wilson broke the law or caused a wrongful death. It would be an unfortunate misunderstanding and tragedy, but not wrongful or illegal and certainly not worthy of the actions people have taken in the wake of it.
If you really look at this situation honestly, I just don't see how you could paint a picture that looks more favorable to Brown than the woman's statement above. It is not how I think it went down, but I will at least admit it could be exactly how it went down.
timschochet
Footballguy
I disagree with many of your conclusions here, but I do think you make some very good points nonetheless. Despite your characterization of me which I find misguided, I regard you as a worthy and insightful person on discussion of this topic.
avoiding injuries
Footballguy
It's already been settled. And unless someone can prove he wasn't charging, had his hands up, or was trying to surrender, we should have moved on from this part of the debate last week.250 pages easyNo new evidence has been produced in at least a week, yet this thread keeps churning.......Same players, same arguments, rinse and repeat.
timschochet
Footballguy
I don't think so.250 pages easyNo new evidence has been produced in at least a week, yet this thread keeps churning.......Same players, same arguments, rinse and repeat.
And nothing will ever be settled
I for one am getting weary of arguing the same points over and over. Obviously some of us disagree. Doesn't really matter, because in the final analysis I agreed with the GJ decision not to indict. I know many of you are sick about hearing the whole "did he charge"? debate over and over. So I won't engage in it anymore. I've made my arguments; accept them or not. I'm done making them and replying to them.
I would be interested in having a longer debate over the larger topic about the problems that young black males have with law enforcement, and the reasons for these problems, and what we as a society can do about them (if indeed anything.) There are several posters here who have made points about this who I have disagreed with: todem, Olaf, Ditkaless Wonders, and others. Though I disagree with much of your perspectives, you guys have expressed yourselves thoughtfully and generally made very reasonable arguments. You are the ones I would love to debate/discuss this with in much greater detail, if you're so inclined...perhaps in another thread.
timschochet
Footballguy
ETA- Avoiding Injuries and Gary Coal Man as well. And of course there are several others (Ivan, Rich, Saints, etc.) who always can be counted on to make thoughtful comments. If I'm leaving anybody out I apologize.
SIDA!
Footballguy
Tim, just to clear, as I may have missed it in this lengthy discussion, but you are in fact pretty much hung up on one aspect of this case at this point:
Did Michael Brown charge the officer?
And to go one step further, you do not believe that any evidence has been presented that proves Brown charged Wilson, correct?
You believe that some witnesses say he did charge and others say he didn't and outside of witness testimony...that is all we have to go on, correct?
Did Michael Brown charge the officer?
And to go one step further, you do not believe that any evidence has been presented that proves Brown charged Wilson, correct?
You believe that some witnesses say he did charge and others say he didn't and outside of witness testimony...that is all we have to go on, correct?
Todem
Footballguy
Tim,,
You're just coming off that way in this thread. You just keep wanting to argue, or discuss, whatever you want to call it. Your mind is made up....we don't have to agree. I don't mind if people disagree. It's the actions you take in how you disagree that separates people like us from the animals that rioted and looted those innocent hard working business owners property that served their very own community I take the biggest offense with. And of course the riot sympathizers and the people who refuse, just flat out refuse and refute scientific evidence that blows the hands up don't shoot story out of the water. It makes those NFL players look like complete morons putting on that display on Sunday.
Appalling. Just like Mike Pouncey wearing a free Aaron Hernandez hat. Flat out appalling.
You may have the right to do that....that's fine and well. It does not make it the right thing to do nor the smartest.
Idiots.
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timschochet
Footballguy
That's a pretty good summary of my views, yes.
But I don't want to debate it any further. If you plan on demonstrating how I am wrong, go ahead, but don't expect a response. I don't want to repeat myself anymore.
timschochet
Footballguy
I won't get into specifics with you; obviously we disagree on several points. But I will correct you on one thing: my mind is rarely made up on anything, and certainly not on this matter. My whole position has been predicated on the basis that I don't know what happened here.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Tim, I have a question, and I will ask it of you as I am curious as to anyone sharing the same view:
If you think he acted criminally, what would have been Wilson's motive for shooting Brown? Racial animus or not? If not, what then?
1. Whether you like it or not a police involved shooting is in fact a criminal investigation and should follow the protocols of any criminal investigation. The non-release of suspect information is so someone in not prematurely labeled as doing something wrong. In fact in my agency an officer is not listed as a suspect until the prosecuting attorney makes a determination on charging or not. No matter how much someone wants to identify the officer by his agency he is a person who is afforded certain rights and you have to take precautions if he/she is cleared they can resume their work duties in the future.
2. I cannot provide a link to my agencies regulations to as not get myself in trouble but I belong to a large police agency that recently underwent training and a change in this area. The policy that was created involved renowned mental health professionals across the country. I am sure you can Google research as I did for the below policy change as well as argument against it. This is not my agency or region of the country but policy changes are occurring across the country. I have to go to work so can't look up more.
This is not my agency:
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20131202/08531625430/dallas-pd-rule-change-gives-officers-72-hours-to-get-their-stories-straight-after-shooting-citizens.shtml
3. Please cite specifics. I have never seen as in depth Grand Jury investigation with public information release. The complaint can be that it was not as timely as many liked but a massive information has been released for you to read every detail.
4. If you really want to stem the controversy and riots then have the leader of the Department of Justice who has injected himself in this and T. Martin case stand before the American people and explain why he thinks there should or should not be an indictment. His silence is disturbing in that he has active investigations into both and has yet to make a formal announcement. He can say all he wants about profiling and body cameras but if he simply would explain to the public why charges should or should not be brought it would have an impact. I would suggest to you that his silence says a lot but as a leader you stand in front of your people and deliver the good news and the bad news not silently let somoen else do your dirty work.
timschochet
Footballguy
I already answered this a few times, but I don't blame you for missing it.
I don't believe that Wilson acted criminally. I think that Brown was wrongfully killed, but that's not the same thing. My hunch (and that's all it is) is that Wilson reasonably feared for his life during the confrontation at the car, and then when Brown started running away after being shot in the hand, Wilson got out of the car, made a split second decision and shot Brown to death. It was a decision made out of fear and rage. I believe Wilson made up the stuff about charging and putting his hand in his waistband later, in order to bolster his story.
It was the wrong decision, IMO, by Wilson, because Brown was no longer a threat, and therefore didn't deserve to die. But this decision was not made out of racism, or bias or anything like that. It was simply the wrong decision. I don't think Wilson should go to jail for that. Resigning from the force is a just outcome, IMO.
Again, these are my beliefs; I won't argue them any further.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Hey Tim, thanks a lot for the response. No argument here, I've just been out of the thread for a while. Have a good one.
Yes, as this case has shown just how accurate all those statements are. Much like the first reports from a battlefield very little is clear and when you add in controversial I'm not sure what benefits we get as far as justice goes.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
1. Of course it's a criminal investigation- it's just not a typical one. There is an obvious need for transparency that doesn't exist in other investigations. Also the question that was asked was not "did they do the right thing?" or "were they acting within their rights"? The question was, basically, why are people so pissed about this particular case? Regardless of what might be said in a procedural manual or even Darren Wilson's rights under the 5th Amendment, people are pissed at what was perceived as a serious lack of accountability and transparency throughout the process, in addition to the overbearing police response to the early protests/riots. I wasn't really talking about whether they were right or wrong to be upset about that (although I think they're right). I just answered the question.
2. That's a terrible policy IMO, and the website cites to only one 12 year old study as the given justification. A police department adopting such a policy is part of the problem and a reason for the public anger, not part of the solution and an explanation. You should read the rest of that link, which rightly takes the Dallas PD to task for it.
3. I mentioned several specifics w/r/t Rice. The others you can google or look up on Wikipedia. In each case the police IDed the killer willingly and provided the public with information, and did not become overly aggressive in response to protests or even riots in the case of Grant. They behaved rationally and served the best interests of the public instead of escalating the conflict. Not sure why you bring up the grand jury, which was months after the fact. The die had already been cast well before that by the months of evasiveness and conflict, and I fault the PD and the prosecutor for that. The post-grand jury press conference where the prosecutor acted like a defense lawyer (when he wasn't behaving like a run of the mill jackass) made it a little worse, but at that point it was really just more of the same.
4. I'm not getting into whether Eric Holder deserves some blame for this mess with someone who refuses to accept that Darren Wilson, Tom Jackson and Bob McCulloch deserve some blame for this mess.
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SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Not arguing, but negligent homicide is criminal, an it is punishable by jail. And "a decision made out of fear and rage" might elevate it to manslaughter. Just saying.
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