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Lorena on Amazon Prime (1 Viewer)

Henry Ford

Footballguy
Highly recommend watching this. Jordan Peele put together a documentary about Lorena Bobbitt and her husband John Wayne Bobbitt and their trials - from a legal standpoint, it’s right up with the McDonald’s case on how much people misunderstand about it, and it is a really well done four hour mini series.  Two thumbs up. 

 
Good article about the implications and assumptions of the Bobbitt trials, and the media circus surrounding them.

Don't read it if you want to watch the docu-series and get the full impact of it rearranging your memories of what happened, in my opinion, but especially if you've seen it definitely worth discussing.

 
I understand the implications of this trial, always did, and never thought that the lionization of genital mutilation was anything but a disaster for both pop culture and ideological consistency regarding vengeance and justice. It was a gruesome act and was not self-defense supported by Battered Woman Syndrome or any DSM cockamamie crap one can come up with.  

It was an ####### husband and a sick ####### wife. That's really all you need to know unless you're looking for an ideologically contrarian side to take. 

 
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I understand the implications of this trial, always did, and never thought that the lionization of genital mutilation was anything but a disaster for both pop culture and ideological consistency regarding vengeance and justice. It was a gruesome act and was not self-defense supported by Battered Woman Syndrome or any DSM cockamamie crap one can come up with.  

It was an ####### husband and a sick ####### wife. That's really all you need to know unless you're looking for an ideologically contrarian side to take. 
It was a woman who had been beaten, raped, and sodomized for years, forced into an abortion by her husband, humiliated, degraded, and insulted, and responded by cutting off his penis after he raped her and then fell asleep again.  That's not just a contrarian side.

 
Henry Ford said:
It was a woman who had been beaten, raped, and sodomized for years, forced into an abortion by her husband, humiliated, degraded, and insulted, and responded by cutting off his penis after he raped her and then fell asleep again.  That's not just a contrarian side.
There's a proportionality standard to things we do, even in self-defense. Her advocates had to argue that she had to stay with him, that it was self-defense, used an insanity defense based in PTSD to establish her actions as insane rather than proportional, and got her off. Stuff like this is why we had to study Battered Woman Syndrome and evidentiary and self-defense standards in Crim Law. 

From a quick check. This was taped by a detective on the scene.  

"He always have orgasm [sic], and he doesn't wait for me ever to have orgasm. He's selfish."

Hardly a heroine.  

 
There's a proportionality standard to things we do, even in self-defense. Her advocates had to argue that she had to stay with him, that it was self-defense, used an insanity defense based in PTSD to establish her actions as insane rather than proportional, and got her off. Stuff like this is why we had to study Battered Woman Syndrome and evidentiary and self-defense standards in Crim Law. 

From a quick check. This was taped by a detective on the scene.  

"He always have orgasm [sic], and he doesn't wait for me ever to have orgasm. He's selfish."

Hardly a heroine.  
You should watch the documentary.  Or at least do more than a quick check.

He was convicted of domestic abuse three times with two different women after he and Lorena broke up and he still cyberstalks her and sends her love letters.

 
He took her immigration paperwork.  He threatened to have her deported.  He repeatedly raped her.  He pushed her into an abortion and ridiculed her.  He told casual acquaintances he only enjoyed "forced sex" and making women bleed and scream. He exerted complete control over her.

I'm not sure what you think is necessary to destroy a human being from the inside out, but that's a pretty good start.

 
You should watch the documentary.  Or at least do more than a quick check.

He was convicted of domestic abuse three times with two different women after he and Lorena broke up and he still cyberstalks her and sends her love letters.
Yeah, no, I remember what a bad guy he was. I remember that marital rape came to the forefront as an issue (I believe Va. was still antiquated in what it considered "rape") and that domestic violence was discussed on the news a lot during this time. I think the more salacious elements of the crime were exploited by the Sterns and shock jocks of the world, but that most of the public -- Vanity Fair not included, either -- saw this as very serious and very troubling. 

That's how I remember it. I think I was a high school junior or senior and can't remember it being discussed in any way but seriously save for the fringe elements of society. I also remember being appalled by the sexualized photo shoot that VF gave her. As a young man, all I could think of was, "Wait. Didn't she just cut his penis off? And this is now a feminist act (or at least an act defended by certain feminists)?" 

I still think one has to be looking hard to justify genital mutilation as self-defense, even given the retrograde protagonist and the inability of the law to suit those most in need. I probably should watch, but I might just get mad in its revisionism. 

 
Yeah, no, I remember what a bad guy he was. I remember that marital rape came to the forefront as an issue (I believe Va. was still antiquated in what it considered "rape") and that domestic violence was discussed on the news a lot during this time. I think the more salacious elements of the crime were exploited by the Sterns and shock jocks of the world, but that most of the public -- Vanity Fair not included, either -- saw this as very serious and very troubling. 

That's how I remember it. I think I was a high school junior or senior and can't remember it being discussed in any way but seriously save for the fringe elements of society. I also remember being appalled by the sexualized photo shoot that VF gave her. As a young man, all I could think of was, "Wait. Didn't she just cut his penis off? And this is now a feminist act (or at least an act defended by certain feminists)?" 

I still think one has to be looking hard to justify genital mutilation as self-defense, even given the retrograde protagonist and the inability of the law to suit those most in need. I probably should watch, but I might just get mad in its revisionism. 
I'm getting pretty mad at your revisionism, so I understand.

 
He took her immigration paperwork.  He threatened to have her deported.  He repeatedly raped her.  He pushed her into an abortion and ridiculed her.  He told casual acquaintances he only enjoyed "forced sex" and making women bleed and scream. He exerted complete control over her.

I'm not sure what you think is necessary to destroy a human being from the inside out, but that's a pretty good start.
How could a married woman be deported? 

Regardless, this is such a nebulous self-defense/insanity issue that I can't get on board with its revisionism.  

 
That's cool, except you have no real idea of the details of the cases.
I remember reading about it and having it be in the cultural ether twenty-seven or twenty-eight years or so ago.  

Should I watch Jordan Peele's production? Do you think that will really cement the broader issues and facts in my mind? 

I have a funny feeling that regardless of how sneering and sniveling they make this guy -- no matter how much of a bully -- I'm not going to support her cutting his penis off versus leaving.  

 
What do you find nebulous about it?
That self-defense can be a response to aggregate events where nothing immediate is about to happen rather than to a specific impending act of violence. 

That's Battered Woman Syndrome, feminism, and the DSM. It's something I've never supported. 

 
I remember reading about it and having it be in the cultural ether twenty-seven or twenty-eight years or so ago.  

Should I watch Jordan Peele's production? Do you think that will really cement the broader issues and facts in my mind? 

I have a funny feeling that regardless of how sneering and sniveling they make this guy -- no matter how much of a bully -- I'm not going to support her cutting his penis off versus leaving.  
I think your view of "self-defense" as the defense of the act is what's shaping your view of the legal issues.  She didn't get acquitted based on self-defense.

 
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That self-defense can be a response to aggregate events where nothing immediate is about to happen rather than to a specific impending act of violence. 

That's Battered Woman Syndrome, feminism, and the DSM. It's something I've never supported. 
She wasn't acquitted on the basis of self-defense.

 
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He said-she said...... boils down to who you believe. She wielded the knife.

The truth is always in the middle. Taking ones side in a "he said/she said" never makes sense without proof and evidence.

 
He said-she said...... boils down to who you believe. She wielded the knife.

The truth is always in the middle. Taking ones side in a "he said/she said" never makes sense without proof and evidence.
Then it's a good thing they had a bunch of that.

 
https://www.vanityfair.com/style/1993/11/lorena-bobbitt-interview-sex-lies-carving-knife

"Lorena Leonor Bobbitt became a national folk heroine (emphasis mine) when, after her husband allegedly raped her, she cut off his penis with an eight-inch carving knife and tossed it out her car window as she drove away. The story, with all its gory symbolism, provokes passionate reactions from men and women around the world. As Lorena goes to trial, she tells KIM MASTERS the story of the real people and real pain behind this shocking new round in the battle between the sexes" - Kim Masters, Vainty Fair, 1993

This is what I remember as a teenager. This is when I dedicated my life to radically questioning the role that the feminist press and academic feminism would play in my life. 

From Wiki: The defense strategy emphasized her action as being a mix of self-defense and temporary insanity constituting an "irresistible impulse" due to the history and pattern of abuse and rape

 
https://www.vanityfair.com/style/1993/11/lorena-bobbitt-interview-sex-lies-carving-knife

"Lorena Leonor Bobbitt became a national folk heroine (emphasis mine) when, after her husband allegedly raped her, she cut off his penis with an eight-inch carving knife and tossed it out her car window as she drove away. The story, with all its gory symbolism, provokes passionate reactions from men and women around the world. As Lorena goes to trial, she tells KIM MASTERS the story of the real people and real pain behind this shocking new round in the battle between the sexes" - Kim Masters, Vainty Fair, 1993

This is what I remember as a teenager. This is when I dedicated my life to radically questioning the role that the feminist press and academic feminism would play in my life. 

From Wiki: The defense strategy emphasized her action as being a mix of self-defense and temporary insanity constituting an "irresistible impulse" due to the history and pattern of abuse and rape
That's really unfortunate.

And yes - her actual plea was "irresistible impulse."  Which is not self-defense.  Essentially, a psychotic break.  She was institutionalized after the trial.

 
That's really unfortunate.

And yes - her actual plea was "irresistible impulse."  Which is not self-defense.  Essentially, a psychotic break.  She was institutionalized after the trial.
I think it's good to question these things. Some mileage may vary on that. 

https://www.biography.com/people/lorena-bobbitt-235414

"According to police reports, Lorena pleaded self-defense, saying that John had continuously raped her." 

I'm not sure how many times I can come across "pled self-defense" and not have it be that, but I have to get a haircut soon and can't debate this all day. I'll defer. I don't think it really matters in the end given the ultimate result of this particular case, but the notion of self-defense as a response to an aggregate number of incidents is certainly a thorny legal issue.  

 
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I think it's good to question these things. Some mileage may vary on that. 

https://www.biography.com/people/lorena-bobbitt-235414

"According to police reports, Lorena pleaded self-defense, saying that John had continuously raped her." 

I'm not sure how many times I can come across "pled self-defense" and not have it be that, but I have to get a haircut soon and can't debate this all day.  I don't think it really matters in the end for this particular case, but the notion of self-defense as a response to an aggregate number of incidents is certainly a thorny legal issue.  
You can come across it all you'd like, I've watched the footage of the verdict and her being taken to a psychiatric facility.  You and I both know how terrible the press is at reporting on court cases.  It's terrible on that and science.

Also, as an aside, pleading self defense in a police report isn't the same thing as pleading self defense in court.

But questioning things is not dedicating your life to radically questioning the role that the feminist press and academic feminism would play in your life.  

Regardless, the question in that case was not "if a guy beats the hell out of you for years, can you cut off his penis."  It was "is it reasonable to believe that after four years of psychological abuse, beatings, and rapes a woman had a psychotic break and cut off the abuser's penis during that break."  The forensic psychiatric expert for the state changed his testimony mid-trial based on the witnesses and said she had PTSD.  His buddies testified against him.  Their neighbors testified against him.  A client at the nail salon she worked at testified about her bruises and how she shook and cried and told her that he husband would kill her if she tried to leave.  Just before the previous weekend she tried to get a restraining order and the city attorney at the office she would get it from said to come back Wednesday because his secretary wasn't there and had to type it up.  She cut his penis off Tuesday night after he raped her.

 
You can come across it all you'd like, I've watched the footage of the verdict and her being taken to a psychiatric facility.  You and I both know how terrible the press is at reporting on court cases.  It's terrible on that and science.

Also, as an aside, pleading self defense in a police report isn't the same thing as pleading self defense in court.

But questioning things is not dedicating your life to radically questioning the role that the feminist press and academic feminism would play in your life.  

Regardless, the question in that case was not "if a guy beats the hell out of you for years, can you cut off his penis."  It was "is it reasonable to believe that after four years of psychological abuse, beatings, and rapes a woman had a psychotic break and cut off the abuser's penis during that break."  The forensic psychiatric expert for the state changed his testimony mid-trial based on the witnesses and said she had PTSD.  His buddies testified against him.  Their neighbors testified against him.  A client at the nail salon she worked at testified about her bruises and how she shook and cried and told her that he husband would kill her if she tried to leave.  Just before the previous weekend she tried to get a restraining order and the city attorney at the office she would get it from said to come back Wednesday because his secretary wasn't there and had to type it up.  She cut his penis off Tuesday night after he raped her.
Bolded: Why I deferred to you. The press is notoriously bad on court cases and science.   

Bolded/Italicized: Wow. That is not what I meant. I haven't dedicated my life to that. I've kept it a constant concern and even had employment related to feminist issues, but that came off really wrong. I have certainly not dedicated my life to that. That must have been an unfinished edit or something...

As far as the last paragraph, the forensic psychiatric expert for the state changing his testimony is probably the most damning thing one can imagine. That and the inability to procure a restraining order shows a complete lack of bureaucratic competence. 

 
Bolded: Why I deferred to you. The press is notoriously bad on court cases and science.   

Bolded/Italicized: Wow. That is not what I meant. I haven't dedicated my life to that. I've kept it a constant concern and even had employment related to feminist issues, but that came off really wrong. I have certainly not dedicated my life to that. That must have been an unfinished edit or something...

As far as the last paragraph, the forensic psychiatric expert for the state changing his testimony is probably the most damning thing one can imagine. That and the inability to procure a restraining order shows a complete lack of bureaucratic competence. 
I'm telling you, the documentary series is crazy.  When you see all of the lies John Wayne Bobbitt told before, during, and after the case, it's crazy.  His best friend contradicts him in testimony about how much they both had to drink that night.  At one point his lawyer accidentally said to the press (meaning to say that John never lies) "John is just incapable of telling the truth."  And it may actually be true as stated.

 
Sounds crazy. I don't like how I remember it being portrayed in the press, nor the proportionality of her actions, but I'll get off of my soapbox and defer in general so that those that are interested in it can have the thread.

Thanks for the time.  

 
Sounds crazy. I don't like how I remember it being portrayed in the press, nor the proportionality of her actions, but I'll get off of my soapbox and defer in general so that those that are interested in it can have the thread.

Thanks for the time.  
That's the thing, proportionality is completely irrelevant.  He broke her.  Honestly, it's really, really good that she had that time in the mental institution after the verdict.

 
And still, he's still crazier than she ever was by far.  

He's still sending her love letters all the time.  One of the best quotes of the entire documentary - from present day: 

"It's like, leave me alone.  It's like, I cut his penis off. Just leave me alone."

 
That's the thing, proportionality is completely irrelevant.  He broke her.  Honestly, it's really, really good that she had that time in the mental institution after the verdict.
Yeah, I'll agree about proportionality. That's really because I'm confusing a legal doctrine with what happened. I should simply say that genital mutilation makes me extremely uncomfortable. 

As for the bolded, it sounds like it. And one can do that to a human being, it would seem. 

 
Yeah, I'll agree about proportionality. That's really because I'm confusing a legal doctrine with what happened. I should simply say that genital mutilation makes me extremely uncomfortable. 

As for the bolded, it sounds like it. And one can do that to a human being, it would seem. 
Yeah, all us dudes are pretty uncomfortable with genital mutilation.  A prostitute at the Bunny Ranch (where John worked for a while) in an interview said something to the effect of "they can cut a million clits off and nobody bats an eye, but you cut off one penis, the whole world has to stop."

It goes into the pop culture phenomenon, and the reaction from women - decent interview with Whoopi Goldberg about it because she had a whole stand up bit about it at the time. Like "yeah, we're constantly afraid we will be raped, beaten, or murdered by one of you at any given moment, and maybe it's not so horrible that you have a second or two to think 'huh, I hope she doesn't cut off my penis.'"

 
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Yeah, all us dudes are pretty uncomfortable with genital mutilation.  A prostitute at the Bunny Ranch (where John worked for a while) in an interview said something to the effect of "they can cut a million clits off and nobody bats an eye, but you cut off one penis, the whole world has to stop."

It goes into the pop culture phenomenon, and the reaction from women - decent interview with Whoopie Goldberg about it because she had a whole stand up bit about it at the time. Like "yeah, we're constantly afraid we will be raped, beaten, or murdered by one of you at any given moment, and maybe it's not so horrible that you have a second or two to think 'huh, I hope she doesn't cut off my penis.'"
As for the bolded, wow. One caveat: I think people have batted eyes about that as it creeps Westward. 

About Whoopi: She always is/was an interesting person. 

I guess it's stuff like that gave me pause back then.  Pretty unsympathetic quotes, whereas I have sympathy for female genital mutilation and try to do everything within my limited power to stop it or not condone it.  

I don't know. World's bigger than me, I guess. 

 

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