Major nuclear fusion breakthrough? (1 Viewer)

[Juxtatarot]

The U.S. Department of Energy said Sunday it would announce a "major scientific breakthrough" this week, after media reported a federal laboratory had recently achieved a major milestone in nuclear fusion research. The Financial Times reported Sunday that scientists in the California-based Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory (LLNL) had achieved a "net energy gain" from an experimental fusion reactor.

That would represent the first time that researchers have successfully produced more energy in a fusion reaction - the same type that powers the Sun - than was consumed during the process, a potentially major step in the pursuit of zero-carbon power.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nuclea...h-us-expected-announcement-zero-carbon-power/

https://www.ft.com/content/4b6f0fab-66ef-4e33-adec-cfc345589dc7?shareType=nongift

 

[MTskibum]

The technology that is perpetually 20 years away is still 20 years away.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Mr. Fusion.

 

[belljr]

be careful, Tretiak and his goons will try to steal the formula

 

[timschochet]

The technology that is perpetually 20 years away is still 20 years away.

This time it feels different, honestly.

And if it’s true it’s the biggest news of our lifetimes. It will dramatically change every aspect of our existence- for the better I believe.

 

[The Z Machine]

NIF has been doing great work recently. But I wonder what happens to the neutrons once the target goes pop? That is what contains the energy of the fusion reaction. How do they capture those neutrons, capture the momentum, turn it into heat and then run a turbine from that heat? Also, I'm sure that there's a lot of material that gets bombarded by fast neutrons (think the optics that carry the lasers to the target) during one of these ignitions. How long will those optics last?

Lots of materials and engineering questions left to resolve, even after the physics of Q > 1.0 are proven.

 

[Doug B]

Pump-the-brakes assessment from another board:

Well, don’t pop the champagne cork yet. First of all, an yield gain factor of Qp~1.2 (indicating a 20% increase in yield relative to the input power), even if real (we’ll get to that in a moment) is not enough to sustain a nuclear fusion reaction. Any fusion process will have substantial losses just in how much energy can be recovered even before you get into converting it into electricity or usable thermal energy. A Qp>10 is generally assumed to be the minimum gain for a self-sustaining fusion reactor of any kind, so this is still almost an order of magnitude away from that threshold.

Second, I can’t read the Financial Times article but I’m assuming that this is either the Nuclear Ignition Facility (NIF) at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratories (LLNL) or the Z Pulsed Machine (ZPM) at Sandia National Laboratories (SNL). Although both are designed and used to research fusion conditions, neither is intended or capable of producing sustained power. The primary mission of the NIF is actually nuclear weapon research and sustainment, although most of the papers you see coming from it are on solar astrophysics, and ZPM is really designed to study high energy plasma dynamics. Both produce interesting physics and may be of some value to nuclear fusion power researchers but neither are a concept leading to net usable energy production. In both cases, the yield produced is so transient that it is often difficult to get an accurate measurement of yield, and if these are preliminary results I could easily expect a ~25% uncertainty on the estimated yield.

...

In short, even if the Financial Times article is completely accurate (unlikely; if this were a verified event one would expect notes in Physical Review Letters, Journal of Fusion Energy, Nature, Science, et cetera) it doesn’t mean that practical nuclear fusion power generation is around the corner. At best it is achieving a technical milestone that is one of many gates necessary to get to the point that fusion power production is a practical means of offsetting current power generation methods, and is certainly not something we should be relying upon to ‘fix’ climate change or provide surplus global energy.

 

[Galileo]

Published February 12, 2014

Perhaps this breakthrough is along the lines of sustainability time?

 

[⚡DEADHEAD⚡]

The National Ignition Facility Celebrates 10 Years of Operation

If you're interested in the breadth of what a national laboratory covers, scroll through the Science and Technology Review. Climate, cyber, nuclear weapon research, chemical weapons, COVID, astrophysics, outer space. It's a remarkable place.

 

[The General]

Let’s pump billions into this and get it done. When finished give the tech to China and India as well.

Also, don’t blow us up.

 

[The Z Machine]

Pump-the-brakes assessment from another board:

Well, don’t pop the champagne cork yet. First of all, an yield gain factor of Qp~1.2 (indicating a 20% increase in yield relative to the input power), even if real (we’ll get to that in a moment) is not enough to sustain a nuclear fusion reaction. Any fusion process will have substantial losses just in how much energy can be recovered even before you get into converting it into electricity or usable thermal energy. A Qp>10 is generally assumed to be the minimum gain for a self-sustaining fusion reactor of any kind, so this is still almost an order of magnitude away from that threshold.

Second, I can’t read the Financial Times article but I’m assuming that this is either the Nuclear Ignition Facility (NIF) at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratories (LLNL) or the Z Pulsed Machine (ZPM) at Sandia National Laboratories (SNL). Although both are designed and used to research fusion conditions, neither is intended or capable of producing sustained power. The primary mission of the NIF is actually nuclear weapon research and sustainment, although most of the papers you see coming from it are on solar astrophysics, and ZPM is really designed to study high energy plasma dynamics. Both produce interesting physics and may be of some value to nuclear fusion power researchers but neither are a concept leading to net usable energy production. In both cases, the yield produced is so transient that it is often difficult to get an accurate measurement of yield, and if these are preliminary results I could easily expect a ~25% uncertainty on the estimated yield.

...

In short, even if the Financial Times article is completely accurate (unlikely; if this were a verified event one would expect notes in Physical Review Letters, Journal of Fusion Energy, Nature, Science, et cetera) it doesn’t mean that practical nuclear fusion power generation is around the corner. At best it is achieving a technical milestone that is one of many gates necessary to get to the point that fusion power production is a practical means of offsetting current power generation methods, and is certainly not something we should be relying upon to ‘fix’ climate change or provide surplus global energy.

BTW, this is where I got my username.
"Sandia’s Z machine is the world’s most powerful and efficient laboratory radiation source. It uses high magnetic fields associated with high electrical currents to produce high temperatures, high pressures, and powerful X-rays for research in high energy density physics. The Z machine creates conditions found nowhere else on Earth. "

 

[D-Day]

The Z machine creates conditions found nowhere else on Earth. "

No way that line works on women. I mean, real women.

 

[The Gator]

The Z machine creates conditions found nowhere else on Earth. "

No way that line works on women. I mean, real women.

 

[Sand]

The technology that is perpetually 20 years away is still 20 years away.

This time it feels different, honestly.

And if it’s true it’s the biggest news of our lifetimes. It will dramatically change every aspect of our existence- for the better I believe.

I hope so. If we've learned anything over the last year is that people will use whatever energy source is at hand. Germany is using firewood to heat homes. Switzerland is banning EVs this winter.

From a practical point of view all the initiatives, agreements, subsidies, etc. are stopgaps until we hit a new paradigm. This will be the new paradigm.

 

[⚡DEADHEAD⚡]

Secretary of Energy Jennifer Granholm, NNSA Administrator Jill Hruby and LLNL Director Kim Budil will hold a press conference tomorrow, Dec. 13 at 7 a.m. PT/10 a.m. ET, where they will make a special announcement about a major scientific breakthrough at LLNL. Following the press conference, a panel of LLNL experts will discuss details of the announcement.

Both events will be livestreamed at https://www.energy.gov/live.

 

[matttyl]

The technology that is perpetually 20 years away is still 20 years away.

This time it feels different, honestly.

And if it’s true it’s the biggest news of our lifetimes. It will dramatically change every aspect of our existence- for the better I believe.

I hope so. If we've learned anything over the last year is that people will use whatever energy source is at hand. Germany is using firewood to heat homes. Switzerland is banning EVs this winter.

From a practical point of view all the initiatives, agreements, subsidies, etc. are stopgaps until we hit a new paradigm. This will be the new paradigm.

The Swiss are only considering that. The same thing happening lots of places.

 

[massraider]

be careful, Tretiak and his goons will try to steal the formula

I always love a good pull from a bad movie.

 

[Dickies]

This is cool. I have multiple neighbors that work at LLNL including one who is involved with the NIF. I doubt he can even tell me anything about it, but I'm now looking forward to the next time we hang out.

 

[The Z Machine]

This is cool. I have multiple neighbors that work at LLNL including one who is involved with the NIF. I doubt he can even tell me anything about it, but I'm now looking forward to the next time we hang out.

Ask them if you can see their hohlraum.

 

[eoMMan]

Ford tried this a few years back. I don’t think people liked the results.

 

[belljr]

be careful, Tretiak and his goons will try to steal the formula

I always love a good pull from a bad movie.

How dare you!!!!

 

[Galileo]

This is cool. I have multiple neighbors that work at LLNL including one who is involved with the NIF. I doubt he can even tell me anything about it, but I'm now looking forward to the next time we hang out.

Ask them if you can see their hohlraum.

Heck, I'd be happy to see half the raum... :rimshot:

I see myself out.

 

[Orange&Blue]

be careful, Tretiak and his goons will try to steal the formula

I always love a good pull from a bad movie.

Take that back!

 

[⚡DEADHEAD⚡]

Announcement 7:00 a.m. Pacific

 

[Ron Swanson]

DOE late to their own presentation.

 

[HomerSimpson]

The U.S. Department of Energy said Sunday it would announce a "major scientific breakthrough" this week, after media reported a federal laboratory had recently achieved a major milestone in nuclear fusion research. The Financial Times reported Sunday that scientists in the California-based Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory (LLNL) had achieved a "net energy gain" from an experimental fusion reactor.

That would represent the first time that researchers have successfully produced more energy in a fusion reaction - the same type that powers the Sun - than was consumed during the process, a potentially major step in the pursuit of zero-carbon power.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nuclea...h-us-expected-announcement-zero-carbon-power/

https://www.ft.com/content/4b6f0fab-66ef-4e33-adec-cfc345589dc7?shareType=nongift

I live in Livermore, hopefully no Stranger Things start happening ~

 

[Jayrod]

be careful, Tretiak and his goons will try to steal the formula

I always love a good pull from a bad movie.

How dare you!!!!

be careful, Tretiak and his goons will try to steal the formula

I always love a good pull from a bad movie.

Take that back!

I was going to go with "you shut your whore mouth".

Elisabeth Shue is a national treasure and my first celebrity crush.

 

[massraider]

be careful, Tretiak and his goons will try to steal the formula

I always love a good pull from a bad movie.

How dare you!!!!

be careful, Tretiak and his goons will try to steal the formula

I always love a good pull from a bad movie.

Take that back!

I was going to go with "you shut your whore mouth".

Elisabeth Shue is a national treasure and my first celebrity crush.

Look at me, I'm a damn devil

 

[⚡DEADHEAD⚡]

We're hiring! LOL.

 

[⚡DEADHEAD⚡]

Four women, one man on this leadership panel. All extremely accomplished. Very cool.

 

[Dickies]

The U.S. Department of Energy said Sunday it would announce a "major scientific breakthrough" this week, after media reported a federal laboratory had recently achieved a major milestone in nuclear fusion research. The Financial Times reported Sunday that scientists in the California-based Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory (LLNL) had achieved a "net energy gain" from an experimental fusion reactor.

That would represent the first time that researchers have successfully produced more energy in a fusion reaction - the same type that powers the Sun - than was consumed during the process, a potentially major step in the pursuit of zero-carbon power.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nuclea...h-us-expected-announcement-zero-carbon-power/

https://www.ft.com/content/4b6f0fab-66ef-4e33-adec-cfc345589dc7?shareType=nongift

I live in Livermore, hopefully no Stranger Things start happening ~

I am a fellow Livermoron.

 

[PIK95]

I pictured Doc Brown when I read the title fwiw.

 

[The Z Machine]

Wow, 54% more energy out than energy that went in (well, laser energy, not total energy in). That's way more than I expected. I hope they can repeat it.

 

[TripItUp]

Wow, 54% more energy out than energy that went in (well, laser energy, not total energy in). That's way more than I expected. I hope they can repeat it.

anybody know how they run these tests? LIke what instruments/infrastructure are used?

 

[Galileo]

Wow, 54% more energy out than energy that went in (well, laser energy, not total energy in). That's way more than I expected. I hope they can repeat it.

This is the kicker. I wonder what sort of overall efficiency we are talking about.

 

[Galileo]

anybody know how they run these tests? LIke what instruments/infrastructure are used?

This achievement was made at the National Ignition Facility where they focused 192 ultraviolet lasers into a hohlraum (small container, I believe made of gold in this case) containing a plastic capsule holding deuterium and tritium (heavy isotopes of hydrogen). Those lasers heat the hohlraum so much that it radiates x-ray pulses causing the capsule to explode compressing the hydrogen fuel to the point where the fusion reaction ignites.

ETA: re-reading your inquiry, you may be searching for more info about the specific equipment involved rather than the general process. That is beyond my pay grade.

 

[Galileo]

Users who are viewing this thread​

• Galileo
• brun
• Monty Burns

 

[dkp993]

Wow, 54% more energy out than energy that went in (well, laser energy, not total energy in). That's way more than I expected. I hope they can repeat it.

This is the kicker. I wonder what sort of overall efficiency we are talking about.

I thought that was 120%?

 

[The Z Machine]

Wow, 54% more energy out than energy that went in (well, laser energy, not total energy in). That's way more than I expected. I hope they can repeat it.

This is the kicker. I wonder what sort of overall efficiency we are talking about.

I thought that was 120%?

No way. The lasers are super inefficient. They take electricity, then use flash lamps to get the lasing going, then turn UV laser light into another wavelength, etc. I think I read that the lasers use something like 400MJ of energy to produce 2MJ of laser power to produce 3MJ of fusion energy. Very inefficient.

ITER (tokamak based MCF) hopefully will get to "true" Q > 1.0, which is truly a break even point for energy out > energy in. MCF is way closer to becoming a power generation technology than ICF like what's done at NIF.

But still, producing 3MJ or energy from 2MJ of laser power? That's pretty rad.

 

[Galileo]

Wow, 54% more energy out than energy that went in (well, laser energy, not total energy in). That's way more than I expected. I hope they can repeat it.

This is the kicker. I wonder what sort of overall efficiency we are talking about.

I thought that was 120%?

No way. The lasers are super inefficient. They take electricity, then use flash lamps to get the lasing going, then turn UV laser light into another wavelength, etc. I think I read that the lasers use something like 400MJ of energy to produce 2MJ of laser power to produce 3MJ of fusion energy. Very inefficient.

ITER (tokamak based MCF) hopefully will get to "true" Q > 1.0, which is truly a break even point for energy out > energy in. MCF is way closer to becoming a power generation technology than ICF like what's done at NIF.

But still, producing 3MJ or energy from 2MJ of laser power? That's pretty rad.

Sadly, I think the media frenzy about "net gain" is really a bit misleading for the general public. It is being portrayed as if there is somehow more total energy after the process than before the process...free energy!!! This is not possible, people.

 

[TripItUp]

anybody know how they run these tests? LIke what instruments/infrastructure are used?

This achievement was made at the National Ignition Facility where they focused 192 ultraviolet lasers into a hohlraum (small container, I believe made of gold in this case) containing a plastic capsule holding deuterium and tritium (heavy isotopes of hydrogen). Those lasers heat the hohlraum so much that it radiates x-ray pulses causing the capsule to explode compressing the hydrogen fuel to the point where the fusion reaction ignites.

ETA: re-reading your inquiry, you may be searching for more info about the specific equipment involved rather than the general process. That is beyond my pay grade.

no, this is exactly what I was interested in...thank you!

 

[Buckna]

“I certainly didn’t expect all this hoopla!”

 

[Orange&Blue]

Wow, 54% more energy out than energy that went in (well, laser energy, not total energy in). That's way more than I expected. I hope they can repeat it.

anybody know how they run these tests? LIke what instruments/infrastructure are used?

Sharks with laser beams

 

[Orange&Blue]

Wow, 54% more energy out than energy that went in (well, laser energy, not total energy in). That's way more than I expected. I hope they can repeat it.

This is the kicker. I wonder what sort of overall efficiency we are talking about.

I thought that was 120%?

No way. The lasers are super inefficient. They take electricity, then use flash lamps to get the lasing going, then turn UV laser light into another wavelength, etc. I think I read that the lasers use something like 400MJ of energy to produce 2MJ of laser power to produce 3MJ of fusion energy. Very inefficient.

ITER (tokamak based MCF) hopefully will get to "true" Q > 1.0, which is truly a break even point for energy out > energy in. MCF is way closer to becoming a power generation technology than ICF like what's done at NIF.

But still, producing 3MJ or energy from 2MJ of laser power? That's pretty rad.

Sadly, I think the media frenzy about "net gain" is really a bit misleading for the general public. It is being portrayed as if there is somehow more total energy after the process than before the process...free energy!!! This is not possible, people.

Shhh

 

[Oracle]

The technology that is perpetually 20 years away is still 20 years away

The National Ignition Facility Celebrates 10 Years of Operation

If you're interested in the breadth of what a national laboratory covers, scroll through the Science and Technology Review. Climate, cyber, nuclear weapon research, chemical weapons, COVID, astrophysics, outer space. It's a remarkable place.

And at ORNL (X10) we have the fastest super computer in the world . Just recently achieving exaflops

 

[heckmanm]

Wow, 54% more energy out than energy that went in (well, laser energy, not total energy in). That's way more than I expected. I hope they can repeat it.

This is the kicker. I wonder what sort of overall efficiency we are talking about.

I thought that was 120%?

No way. The lasers are super inefficient. They take electricity, then use flash lamps to get the lasing going, then turn UV laser light into another wavelength, etc. I think I read that the lasers use something like 400MJ of energy to produce 2MJ of laser power to produce 3MJ of fusion energy. Very inefficient.

ITER (tokamak based MCF) hopefully will get to "true" Q > 1.0, which is truly a break even point for energy out > energy in. MCF is way closer to becoming a power generation technology than ICF like what's done at NIF.

But still, producing 3MJ or energy from 2MJ of laser power? That's pretty rad.

Sadly, I think the media frenzy about "net gain" is really a bit misleading for the general public. It is being portrayed as if there is somehow more total energy after the process than before the process...free energy!!! This is not possible, people.

Unless you are able to initiate a self-sustaining fusion reaction, right? Basically a small sun that can (somehow) be contained and the heat energy harvested.

 

[heckmanm]

Good summary of the next steps

 

[supermike80]

“I certainly didn’t expect all this hoopla!”

MASSIVELY underrated movie!! Nice quote pull!!

 

[Galileo]

Wow, 54% more energy out than energy that went in (well, laser energy, not total energy in). That's way more than I expected. I hope they can repeat it.

This is the kicker. I wonder what sort of overall efficiency we are talking about.

I thought that was 120%?

No way. The lasers are super inefficient. They take electricity, then use flash lamps to get the lasing going, then turn UV laser light into another wavelength, etc. I think I read that the lasers use something like 400MJ of energy to produce 2MJ of laser power to produce 3MJ of fusion energy. Very inefficient.

ITER (tokamak based MCF) hopefully will get to "true" Q > 1.0, which is truly a break even point for energy out > energy in. MCF is way closer to becoming a power generation technology than ICF like what's done at NIF.

But still, producing 3MJ or energy from 2MJ of laser power? That's pretty rad.

Sadly, I think the media frenzy about "net gain" is really a bit misleading for the general public. It is being portrayed as if there is somehow more total energy after the process than before the process...free energy!!! This is not possible, people.

Unless you are able to initiate a self-sustaining fusion reaction, right? Basically a small sun that can (somehow) be contained and the heat energy harvested.

There still must be an input of energy. The self sustaining fusion process in stars is initiated and fueled through the transfer of gravitational potential energy…that requires a large amount of mass.

 

[grateful zed]

my family used to burn cow pies for warmth on their prarrie homestead.