parrot
Footballguy
What "evidence"? An unsubstantiated tweet from a lawyer does not constitute evidence.
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Making A Murderer (Netflix) (Spoilers) (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter The Flying Elvis
- Start date
Bull Dozier
Footballguy
I was actually impressed with the way Brendan came across in his testimony. I was concerned he was going to be quiet and not respond to the prosecutors under cross examination. He also held up and did not waiver his story, and did not get caught up when the prosecutors tried to ask him confusing questions. He wasn't smart enough to be coached very well.
Granted, this was in the midst of being told the story they wanted to tell, and I had not done any outside reading....
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
I have no idea what they would do with a season 2.
bucksoh
Footballguy
Thing is he has a very good chance of being exonerated based on KZ past. So now the question remains will you and the other guilters still feel he is guilty?
shuke
Black Ice Skeptic
The lawyer he hired, or her past, have nothing to do with his guilt, regardless of how much you want it to justify your feelings about the case.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Considering she's been tweeting teasers almost daily since taking on the case (something most lawyers would consider highly unprofessional if not unethical), I'd say that ship sailed long ago.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
More than likely if he is exonerated it would be based on some sort of pretty conclusive evidence. If that were the case, like his first one, then no I wouldnt feel he is guilty. If it happens based pretty much solely on political pressure, then yes I would probably still think he is guilty.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
I don't know how all the appeal stuff works, but appeals have already been denied, and I thought they said all attempts at getting an appeal case had been used up. So I'd guess for her to get a retrial (or whatever the correct term may be), she'll have to have something pretty substantial in order for a court to hear it.
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bigbottom
Footballguy
Re: being unprofessional/unethical, isn't managing public opinion/perception part of the game? Both the prosecution and the defense were giving pressers leading up to the trial, during the trial, and after the trial.CletiusMaximus said:
I don't have to deal with the press or public opinion in my cases, so I haven't given the topic much thought.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
I don't do criminal defense either, so maybe it is part of the game. I took a quick look at her twitter feed and it seems she is sending almost daily tweets teasing the evidence she's discovered and such - essentially making the progress of her work product public record. I expect a civil litigator would never dream of this in a high profile case. She's apparently very successful, so its probably not my place to criticize her methods. I checked her website very briefly, and it did not seem professional to me - very much focused on her personal celebrity.
Huh? I think I saw one photo of her and it was on the contact page. Anyway, her celebrity is her professional success as well has her firm's.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
A few delays in reading, due to our fabulous weather, I didn't glean much of use from Day 4 but here are some Day 4 trial transcript nuggets:
- Bobby Dassey had the same model Marlin .22 rifle as the one Steven Avery had
- they searched all surrounding bodies of water and opened and searched all 4000+ cars on the Avery property looking for TH's body
- they searched all 4000+ cars a second time looking for any evidence
- Sgt. Orth, the first officer to arrive on the scene once the vehicle was located at the Avery property, testified to having looked in the RAV4 and not seeing any blood (of course, the state countered that with "so you didn't see any dark colored blood on the dark colored interior?") --just thought this was interesting
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Bull Dozier
Footballguy
What was the timing of searching all 4000+ cars? After the RAV4 was found on the property?
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
not really any new news on the Avery case but interesting Newsweek spot on Zellner
Oh and she's purchased a RAV4 just like Halbach's for research
Oh and she's purchased a RAV4 just like Halbach's for research
facook
Footballguy
Watching the recent smattering of OJ shows (watched a 1/2 hour one on NatGeo in particular) it struck me how MUCH MORE strong evidence there was against OJ and yet he got off. His blood at the scene where the victims were found; a glove with his blood found at the same scene, and the matching glove found outside his home; at the scene a footprint of a shoe that he owned of which only 300 pairs existed. Just crazy. I get it was race/celebrity/etc that got him off but it made me think of Avery and how much more circumstantial the evidence against him was, and yet he sits in jail for murder.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
my Day 5 trial transcript nuggets:
- a human remains/cadaver search dog searched the car crusher
- Brutus, the ace search dog, alerted on the RAV4, but defense brought up the point that Brutus was a "human remains" dog, which would technically alert on ANY human remains (doesn't have to be just blood or a dead body, but literally any human matter)
- As for Steven Avery's residence, Brutus only alerted in the bathroom; where defense contends it's common to find blood, from shaving, etc.
- There were plenty of other areas that Brutus and other search dogs alerted on around the property (not only the RAV and SA's bathroom), and most of them turned out to be nothing related to the case
- An anonymous letter found at the Green Bay post office that said something to the effect of "body was burnt up in aluminum smelter, 3AM, Friday" - SA's attorneys found this letter and had it dusted for fingerprints and/or sent to the lab. They didn't say anything else about it, so I'm guessing it was just a weird coincidental item that meant nothing.
- Agent Fassbender admitted that none of the items seized from SA's residence, which included carpet, walls sections, mattresses, and random items from throughout the residence and items they "linked" to Teresa such as a bill of sale, showed one shred of indication that Teresa had ever been inside that residence.
Thanks, I hadn't seen this. I really like this lady. Glad this article gave the reason behind her, "I'll never represent a guilty man" commentsnot really any new news on the Avery case but interesting Newsweek spot on Zellner
Oh and she's purchased a RAV4 just like Halbach's for research
" “Don’t hire me if you’re guilty, because I will find out,” Zellner tells an inmate before taking his case. Zellner vowed she would only defend innocent people as a result of the first case she handled after starting her own law firm, which began when a janitor found a human leg inside a Hefty garbage bag tossed into a Chicago dumpster. Inside the dumpster were another seven garbage bags that held the rest of the dismembered body of Danny Bridges, a 15-year-old prostitute. Larry Eyler, a house painter suspected in over 20 murders across the Midwest, was convicted in 1986 of killing the boy and sent to death row. An anti-death-penalty organization brought the case to Zellner, who tried and failed to broker a deal that would take Eyler off death row in exchange for him admitting to all his killings in Illinois and Indiana. After Zellner built a relationship with Eyler, trying to get him off death row and even convincing him to get an HIV test, Eyler admitted his many murders to her in “excruciating detail” but said she had to keep them secret as long as he lived. When he died of AIDS in 1994, Zellner held a press conference to announce Eyler’s confessions to 21 murders. “It's been really hard on me knowing all this stuff,” Zellner told the Chicago Tribune. “I had these victims’ families pleading with me during his life to tell them what happened.” That stress, coupled with Eyler’s lack of remorse and his contempt for the mostly gay men and boys he tortured, made Zellner promise herself she would never knowingly represent another guilty man. “After looking into the face of evil and being exposed to that for those two to three years, I never wanted to be in a position where I could be used by someone like that.” "
facook said:
From the comments of that Newsweek article:
" Avery's conviction, like O.J.Simpson's acquittal, is rooted in the juror's perceptions of the integrity of law enforcement officers. The Avery jury was convinced the investigators were incapable of fraud while the O.J. jurors knew how the LAPD falsified evidence to obtain convictions "
I think that's pretty much hitting the nail on the head.
Billy Bats
Footballguy
I agree, in several different ways. Most noticeably to me is that small towns may turn a bind eye towards corruption because it's gone on so long it's ingrained and they might not even notice it or just mentally can't even acknowledge it as some sort of safety mechanism... where big cities have already had it out in the open and had riots over it, so people have had to face it as a possibility. Also, the willingness to give the benefit of doubt to a suspected murderer might be easier in a larger community (and to a celeb that will likely have cameras on them all the time) where there are lots of other people than you and your family that they could kill if you happen to be wrong
Willie Neslon
Footballguy
I just finished the show and read the thread. Observations:
- How does the kid go to jail and put on all that weight? My (2nd) biggest fear about jail would be I could starve to death because no way i could eat the stuff they serve there. That kid goes in in decent shape and in a few years he's a house.
- Much has been made of Avery drawing pictures (while in prison for that first rape) of women being tortured. Wouldn't it be reasonable to assume he had some serious anger about being wrongly accused by that woman and that anger came out in those drawings? I mean the whole community pretty much assumed it was all true based on the accuser picking him out of a line up. So he draws some pictures of a woman being tortured in a dungeon and that makes him a bad guy capable of murder? I think it'd be natural for his anger to come out some way. He had no violent episodes in prison. Instead his rage came out in those drawings.
- People here loving that one reporter but there was another (bustier) reporter who I thought deserved more discussion/attention.
- I think it was mentioned here but the best moment of the show was when the attorney said Steven couldn't have committed the rape because the accuser said the rapist was wearing white underwear and Steven doesn't wear underwear. Classic.
- As to Steven's dna being on the key...the cops were in the guy's house searching for all that time alone. Couldn't they have found something in the house with Steven's dna on it and rubbed it on the key? A sock? A hat? The armpit of a shirt?
- Why would he rape/stab her in the bedroom, shoot her in the garage, then load the body into the back of her SUV and drive it a few feet to burn at the fire pit? It doesn't make any sense. No blood found in the bedroom or the garage. He supposedly expertly cleaned all of that up but then just left her bones right there out in the open? Scrubbed the floor, cleaned up every single blood splatter but didn't bother picking up the one bullet? No way. I'm no detective but it seems way more likely she was killed in or near her suv, loaded into the back and driven somewhere. And why would his blood even be in the car?
- If he really wanted to hide her SUV in the yard wouldn't he have done a much better job than just leaning a couple of twigs up against it? Hey I'll just lean a few sticks around it and nobody will see it. If anything wouldn't that have made it draw more attention? Does anybody really believe that was legit? And wasn't it obvious the woman on the stand who found it was performing? It was almost as bad a performance as the guy who was crying over the ribbon. Completely full of crap.
- Does anyone believe for a second that the nephew would be capable of having sex with the victim while she was shackled to the bed? Steven invites him in, brings him to the victim chained to the bed, tells him to go for it and the nephew just does the deed? Seems absurd.
- How does the kid go to jail and put on all that weight? My (2nd) biggest fear about jail would be I could starve to death because no way i could eat the stuff they serve there. That kid goes in in decent shape and in a few years he's a house.
- Much has been made of Avery drawing pictures (while in prison for that first rape) of women being tortured. Wouldn't it be reasonable to assume he had some serious anger about being wrongly accused by that woman and that anger came out in those drawings? I mean the whole community pretty much assumed it was all true based on the accuser picking him out of a line up. So he draws some pictures of a woman being tortured in a dungeon and that makes him a bad guy capable of murder? I think it'd be natural for his anger to come out some way. He had no violent episodes in prison. Instead his rage came out in those drawings.
- People here loving that one reporter but there was another (bustier) reporter who I thought deserved more discussion/attention.
- I think it was mentioned here but the best moment of the show was when the attorney said Steven couldn't have committed the rape because the accuser said the rapist was wearing white underwear and Steven doesn't wear underwear. Classic.
- As to Steven's dna being on the key...the cops were in the guy's house searching for all that time alone. Couldn't they have found something in the house with Steven's dna on it and rubbed it on the key? A sock? A hat? The armpit of a shirt?
- Why would he rape/stab her in the bedroom, shoot her in the garage, then load the body into the back of her SUV and drive it a few feet to burn at the fire pit? It doesn't make any sense. No blood found in the bedroom or the garage. He supposedly expertly cleaned all of that up but then just left her bones right there out in the open? Scrubbed the floor, cleaned up every single blood splatter but didn't bother picking up the one bullet? No way. I'm no detective but it seems way more likely she was killed in or near her suv, loaded into the back and driven somewhere. And why would his blood even be in the car?
- If he really wanted to hide her SUV in the yard wouldn't he have done a much better job than just leaning a couple of twigs up against it? Hey I'll just lean a few sticks around it and nobody will see it. If anything wouldn't that have made it draw more attention? Does anybody really believe that was legit? And wasn't it obvious the woman on the stand who found it was performing? It was almost as bad a performance as the guy who was crying over the ribbon. Completely full of crap.
- Does anyone believe for a second that the nephew would be capable of having sex with the victim while she was shackled to the bed? Steven invites him in, brings him to the victim chained to the bed, tells him to go for it and the nephew just does the deed? Seems absurd.
Willie Neslon
Footballguy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDFnDaMkikg
So that's from the days after the murder. Doesn't seem like a guy who's trying to hide anything. Was there any point in the series where he comes off dishonest? If he's guilty of anything it was trusting the authorities he was suing to go through everything on the property. Feel like both guys wouldn't be in jail if they had a half a brain between them. You just spent 18 years in jail for a crime where you were railroaded. A missing woman's car magically appears on the property and you give the authorities, some of which have just given depositions for your lawsuit against them, free reign to search all over because you have nothing to hide? C'mon.
So that's from the days after the murder. Doesn't seem like a guy who's trying to hide anything. Was there any point in the series where he comes off dishonest? If he's guilty of anything it was trusting the authorities he was suing to go through everything on the property. Feel like both guys wouldn't be in jail if they had a half a brain between them. You just spent 18 years in jail for a crime where you were railroaded. A missing woman's car magically appears on the property and you give the authorities, some of which have just given depositions for your lawsuit against them, free reign to search all over because you have nothing to hide? C'mon.
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Ted Stickles
Footballguy
I was just coming to bump this thread Willie Nelson. I also just finished the series and read the 62 page thread and I agree with everything you said in your longer, prior post.
The way SA speaks and his mannerisms do not give off the sense of a guilty man. In the subsequent recorded phone calls from jail, he still sounds innocent. I would think that if he were guilty he would have mixed up a few details and perjured himself already.
Did SA not seek counsel prior to giving the shady MC police permission to search his property? It is absurd to allow the MC police access to the Avery property granted the pending $30mil lawsuit and prior rape trial BS.
James Lenk is as stone-cold shady as anyone I have ever seen. Lenk finds the key 4 months later on the 8th search, while unattended? Colburn calls in the plates days before it was found? It was way too easy to plant evidence on the 40 acre Avery property and frame SA.
Willie Neslon
Footballguy
That's the question that stood out to me the most. He did have the attorney who was representing him in the lawsuit. At the very least he could have called that guy and let him know the cops wanted to search the property. It would have been in that attorney's interest to make sure Avery had some legal protection. Instead Avery consents to the search saying he had nothing to hide and allowed the same people who put him away for 18 years for a crime he didn't commit to roam all over the place. It would have been totally reasonable for him to deny consent for the search because of what happened to him 20 years prior.
Zow
Footballguy
Live tweeting your investigations though? Seems like a terrible idea on several levels.
James Daulton
Footballguy
Golden Gopher
Footballguy
Agree with pretty much all of the above. The only thing I can conclude about your first question (the kid's weight) is that maybe it's depression-related. I can't imagine coming to the realization that you're locked up for a good chunk of the rest of your life. Assuming he gets that part, I'm guessing he doesn't have any other way to cope (other than eating?). Just a thought.
Agree on the underwear comment as well... That one still makes me chuckle.
Zow
Footballguy
I do criminal defense and cannot imagine sending daily tweets regarding an active case. Especially ones with hashtags, grammatical errors, and with such taunting sentiment to them. Her tweets are borderline distasteful to me. I have worked with attorneys who will make commentary on social media about their cases after they're over or, at least, there's a positive verdict, but I still find that to be a little unprofessional so I don't do it. Zellner's also posted civil settlements on her website which surprise me a bit because, in my limited experience in that area, most tend to contain non-disclosure agreements.
But, then again, this lawyer's accomplishments and notoriety are grossly superior to mine; so what do I know?
Willie Neslon
Footballguy
Watched the first 5 episodes again. Obviously it comes of sympathetic to Avery but in the raw video of the police interviews or tv interviews when does he come off as anything but completely believable? I don't see a single moment where it seems he's hiding something or being evasive with an answer. On the other hand you have the ex-boyfriend on the stand who can't remember the general time he saw the victim on the Sunday before she went missing. "Was it morning, afternoon or night?" "Uh, I don't know." How can you not remember generally what point of the day you saw your five year girlfriend for the final time? Who wouldn't remember that? And how (and why) does he magically go on the internet and figure out her password to her phone? This guy wasn't ever looked at as a suspect? Not even questioned?
Willie Neslon
Footballguy
As far as the ex-girlfriend Jodi now doing an about face and saying she thinks he's guilty, he abused her, etc. She seemed pretty in love at the time the series was filmed. Their phone conversations sounded like a couple whose love was mutual. She did make a comment during the show that she drank two beers and if she was caught she'd be going to jail. A week or so later she was caught and goes back to lock up after already having served 7 months(!) for a dui. She's obviously not the smartest girl in the world. Sounds to me like someone got to her, someone threatened her to be unsupportive of Avery or else risk more problems. She probably finally got to a place in her life with a job and a decent place to live and is told that can all be taken away. Just seems so odd that she'd be speaking out about this now and in a way that was completely foreign to how she came across in the series. A lot of people up there are convinced of his guilt and the only way for her to salvage her own reputation would be to agree with those people.
Billy Bats
Footballguy
As soon as the call came in for a missing woman in Manitowac County, they had their man.
Willie Neslon
Footballguy
Willie Neslon
Footballguy
This is exactly what I was referring to. It's been a decade since she was living with Avery. She's got a completely new life now. I'm sure the stink of her being the ex-fiance of such a notorious convicted murder had clung to her all of these years even before the series premiered. Now the show comes out and that stink just multiplied by a thousand. Of course she's going to distance herself from him and that time in her life. What would be the positives for her to support him all these years later? She doesn't want to be associated with him or the crime in anyway, going so far as to say she asked they never put her in this to begin with. Also if her claims are true that Avery was threatening her and telling her what to say, who's to say that isn't happening again now with someone else? I'd think whoever she's with now isn't going to be fired about his wife or girlfriend now being outed and seen by everyone as a convicted murderers ex. She's just trying to salvage the life she has now and no longer has any loyalty to Avery. I'm sure she could've been easily convinced he actually did it. The same investigators who coerced the nephew's confession were shown already getting to her before the trial.
parrot
Footballguy
And imagine how lucky they felt that "their man" had just happened to call this missing woman out to his property on the very day she disappeared and outside his house was the last place anyone saw her alive.
parrot
Footballguy
He didn't give anyone "free reign to search all over". He gave them permission to look in his trailer which took an estimated five minutes. It's doubtful he even had the authority to consent to a search of the salvage yard. The RAV4 was only found because his brother allowed Pam and Nicole Sturm to search the yard.
Willie Neslon
Footballguy
Right. He said something like "look wherever you want, i have nothing to hide." They searched the property for 8 days and he wasn't allowed back inside the house while they searched.
parrot
Footballguy
That was after the car was found and search warrants were issued, not because he had consented.
Willie Neslon
Footballguy
I'd have to rewatch the episode but I don't recall them mentioning when warrants were issued.
parrot
Footballguy
Let me help: page 72;
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CASO-Investigative-Report.pdf
No offense but your first mistake is thinking you are getting the whole story simply by watching episodes of MaM.
Willie Neslon
Footballguy
I never said I was. All i said he let them in the house to begin with. They had free reign of the property for 8 days. He couldn't go back into his house. You really think i'm going to read through an 1100 page case report to find out the date the warrant was issued?
Willie Neslon
Footballguy
After watching it again, the worst moment by far has to be that investigator (o'kelly?) sobbing on the witness stand when seeing the ribbon. 'I think that's her church in the background". Give me a break. So awful. Makes me wanna puke.
shuke
Black Ice Skeptic
Willie Neslon
Footballguy
Bull Dozier
Footballguy
Jodi just seemed like she wasn't all there throughout the documentary. She made horrible decisions, and reacted to a lot of things very strangely. Her changing her story is the last thing in the world that would change my mind on SA's innocence.Willie Neslon said:
parrot
Footballguy
No, you said he allowed them to "go through everything on the property"; that's not remotely true. And yes, they eventually searched the property for 8 days and wouldn't allow him back inside his house, but it had nothing to do with him consenting to anything or because he had "nothing to hide". These are the kinds of things that happen when a woman goes missing and her car, possessions, and remains are found on your property.Willie Neslon said:
And no, I don't expect you to read an 1100 page report just to find out when the warrants were issued, that's why I included the page number for you. I just figured I'd include the link in case you wanted a source beyond what the makers of MaM choose to spoon-feed you.
Willie Neslon
Footballguy
You took two words out of my post ("free reign") and gave them heightened, alternative meaning. You're arguing semantics. Whether you believe I'm being spoon fed or not, the guy allowed detectives from the county he was suing for 36M into his trailer saying he had nothing to hide. Whether he had anything to hide or not common sense would say that was an error. He had nobody looking at for him 20 years before and allows himself into a similar situation, now with multi-million dollar lawsuit pending.
James Daulton
Footballguy
Willie's after the prosecution like he was some dentist who tried to get Willie to agree to 20+ xrays.
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