whoknew
Footballguy
An 8 day search of a small house while not letting the owner back into it is standard? Just something that happens when there is a murder?
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Making A Murderer (Netflix) (Spoilers) (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter The Flying Elvis
- Start date
parrot
Footballguy
I don't believe I'm arguing semantics. I believe you implied that he gave law enforcement a far wider berth than he really did and I believe people should know the truth about this stuff if they want to form informed opinions.
Willie Neslon
Footballguy
He allowed two people onto his property who were being sued by him. You are arguing semantics. Maybe I should find an 1100 page book about semantics and link it for you to peruse.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Why so testy Neslon? He directed you to the exact page he was referencing. I don't understand the hostility toward an actual source document.
Willie Neslon
Footballguy
He's hung up on me using the words "free reign". I was directed to page 1 of an 1100 page document.
Willie Neslon
Footballguy
Now I'm seeing what happened. When I scanned his post containing the link I read "on page 72" to be referencing page 72 of this thread and not the page 72 document (as in, "this was already discussed, I posted this link on page 72"). When I clicked the link I went to page one of the document. Obviously that makes no sense as there aren't 72 pages in the thread but that's how I read it. Apologies.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Trial transcript nuggets - Days 6 & 7
More of Lenk testimony with Day 8... it's getting juicy.
- Crime lab tech testified that the tow truck driver that removed the RAV4 from the salvage yard tried to access the transmission linkage via the hood... meaning he could have, if not wearing gloves, touched the hood latch, or contaminated any DNA that was on there already...hoping there is more to come about the hood latch fiasco
- Luminol testing showed blood stains on SA's couch. Blood samples were collected for testing. Same for Charles Avery's couch.
- Ertl, from the crime lab, testified that they didn't have good photo records of the SA residence, garage or burn barrels, since they had been disturbed already; because they weren't the only ones processing the crime scene (because it was such a large scene to cover)
- As for Luminol testing in SA's garage: Ertl testified that bleach reacts brightly to the luminol. The "stain" in the garage showed up very dull. Then followup testing for actual blood traces, showed zero blood traces of any kind
- Officer Tyson testified that there were zero scratches or marks of any kind on SA's headboard that would indicate that someone was chained up there
- Colburn said SA told him he never even talked to Teresa the day she was there to take pics of the van, but that she was indeed there (he had seen her out the window) He also said SA was very cordial to him and said "hope the turns up soon" as Colburn left
- Colburn said they didn't take SA's 2 guns (in the rack above his bed) on the initial search of SA's trailer --- yet they did take the handcuffs and leg irons?? this seems odd to me
- Colburn said he twisted the bookcase "rather roughly" which made the key fall out of the back ---yet he didn't hear it hit the floor??? He didn't notice it until Lenk says "hey there's a key on the floor"
- key was "found" from the same book case the leg irons and handcuffs had been found on the very first search
- back of the book case that was loose, seemed (to me) to barely be ajar (my link to pic) --doesn't look like enough room for the key to be concealed in there, yet be "thrown" out of the unit when twisted "roughly"
- Colburn testified that he didn't notice SA to be bleeding or injured in any way when he first went to inquire about TH being missing ---of course, he could have just not seen it, I just thought it was noteworthy
- SA gave Lenk and Remiker permission to search his trailer when the whole ordeal started; which they did for about 5 minutes
- Lenk said at that time, he had no inclination that SA had anything to do with the disappearance of Teresa
More of Lenk testimony with Day 8... it's getting juicy.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
A question I have, I guess more for the lawyer types, is why WOULDN'T Steve take the stand if he were indeed innocent?? I get that he might not be the brightest bulb on the string, but if he's telling the truth, and is indeed innocent, then seems like he could have done himself a lot of favors by answering questions to show himself in a more favorable light. Maybe this is commonplace in criminal trials?
I'll hang up and listen.
I'll hang up and listen.
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
Wasn't the prosecution theory that she was killed in the garage? If so, how could they convict if no blood found in garage?
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
that's one of the big head-scratchers as to why the jury didn't have a least a tiny bit of reasonable doubt... I'm hoping going through the transcripts might shed more light on that matter because that one, and a couple of other "key points," puzzles me, regardless of if one thinks he's innocent or guilty.
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
Yeah the bullet found in the garage means absolutely nothing to me without any blood. It only makes it look like it was planted and proves his innocence.
mr. furley
Footballguy
well, he's got an IQ hovering around 70 and a lawyer's main job is to create a storyline, frame it and parse witnesses words to fit the narrative. Avery would have been a muppet up there being guided from one trap to another based solely on his inability to use words to express his thoughts clearly.
any semi-competent attorney would have slaughtered him on the stand. a good attorney could have him confessing to body slamming Jim McMahon in '86.
parrot
Footballguy
Brendan states they cleaned up a stain that could have been blood using bleach, paint thinner, and gasoline. Steve verifies to Jodi on the phone that he had Brendan over helping him clean up in the garage. Curiously neither one mentions this to police in the beginning. Barb Janda verifies that Brendan has jeans that were bleach-stained from helping Steven clean up something that night. Brendan's jeans are produced with bleach stains on them. Luminol lights up an area in the garage but it can't be confirmed that blood is present, though bleach is another substance that will cause Luminol to react. Brendan produces a picture that agrees with where the reactive stain was found. Kayla asks school counselor if blood can come up from concrete.
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Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
I think the defense to that argument is that if you were going to coerce a confession, it would surely have it match what was actually found.
The other defense argument (although I haven't reached that point in the transcripts, just going from articles I've read) is that there was zero blood found in the garage, the alleged murder site, and with as much junk as the garage contained, it would be virtually impossible to remove every drop of blood, particularly from a stabbing or shooting. They even dug up concrete where there were cracks in the garage floor, and found nothing.
mr. furley
Footballguy
saminabatchOfficer Pete Malloy said:
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Trial Transcript - Day 8 nuggets
- Lenk said they were searching for a pair of woman's gloves and a garage opener (I assume that were missing from the RAV4); they found a pair of woman's gloves in a paper bag under the desk at Steve's residence -nothing else was said about the gloves after it was brought up, so I assume they turned out to be insignificant, or may come up later
- Lenk testified that he didn't tell those in charge of the SA/TH investigation about being deposed in SA's civil suit because, and I quote here, he "didn't think about it" --yet he volunteered to search SA's trailer and garage, along with Colburn and Remiker
- Remiker said Steve said Teresa came into his residence so he could pay her --This goes directly against what was testified to on Day 7 by Colburn who said SA never even TALKED to TH, that he saw her through the window taking the pics then she left. Defense balked at this, outside the presence of the jury (pg. 176, if you want to read the exchange), saying basically that he just testified to something that wasn't in his police report (that she entered the residence). Part of the discussion with the Defense and the witness took place off the record; then following that, the Defense and the State said they had reached some sort of agreement regarding that whole thing. It was not addressed in further Day 8 testimony, which I was a little surprised at, since it seemed like a significant difference, putting her physically inside the residence. But maybe it will come up later. My mind is racing on this one. Seems like it could be cleared up if they know when she was paid for the job, by a sales receipt, etc or if there was no record of if she were paid that day. And I want to know what the defense and Remiker discussed! Should I send this to Zellner?
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TheAristocrat
Footballguy
Thanks for doing this, NRJ! I like the updates.
E Street Brat
Footballguy
Finished watching this last night. It had my wife in tears.
I'm looking forward to going back and reading through this thread
I'm looking forward to going back and reading through this thread
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
my Trial Transcript Day 9 nuggets:
- They found a TH missing person poster on the wall in the business office on the salvage yard property, which included of course the vehicle description and license plate number --remember the infamous call-in of the license plate number to confirm the vehicle info? just thought it was noteworthy
- Kucharski, the photographer, was sitting on the bed "a couple of feet away" from where the key was found in SA's bedroom. He didn't notice it until Lenk announced that he saw a key.
- Lenk and Colburn were searching the bookcase TOGETHER and Lenk was standing in a position so that his body was between the location where the key was found and Kucharski (who was sitting on the bed); this was immediately prior to Lenk leaving the room to get boxes and coming back in to announce "there's a key right there" --
- Kucharski did NOT photograph the back of the bookcase that the key supposedly came out of on the day it was found --I was a little shocked by this. They talked about locations where the key could have come from (hanging on the wall, under the bookcase, etc.) and believed it came from the bookcase itself, but didn't take a picture of the back of it??
- Kucharski said it could be "possible" that they planted the key because he was searching the nightstand and taking pics, etc., but he didn't believe they planted it
- they did search plenty of other areas on the property, including underneath and in the attic crawlspace of the trailer of Charles Avery; so not just the trailer and garage of SA
- A deer was found hanging in a garage next door to SA's parcel of property; this was noted by the defense as being the day they found the suspected blood spots in SA's garage --defense was arguing that even if it were blood, it didn't mean anything significant to the case
- pg. 88-89; Kucharski's original report said they found 10 .22 shell casings in SA's garage. There were 11 shell casings in the evidence bag. He testified that he must have miscounted.
- search of Charles Avery's trailer yielded the same model .22 long rifle that SA had
- pg ~122...; quite a bit of deliberation about excusing a juror who had been a juror in a civil case in 2000 where the jury ended up awarding damages to Detective Remmiker after a car accident. State said is was no big deal. Defense balked big time. It was a 1-week trial and the juror had voted (along with the rest of the jury) in Remmiker's favor, but said she didn't remember if he had testified in that case. She reported this to the bailiff of her own accord after she saw Remmiker in the court room. She said she didn't remember him by name, but recognized his face from her earlier juror experience. The judge questioned her apart from the rest of the jurors (with the attorneys present) and then ruled that she would stay on the jury, despite the defense's request to dismiss her based on possible bias
- Investigator Steier said that on March 1 and 2 when the bullets were found in the garage, that neither Lenk nor Colburn were in the garage; however, Lenk was inside the taped off area immediately surrounding the garage on the second day. Sign in/out logs confirmed his presence there.
- Defense did ask about some of the photos where a couple of the shell casings were supposedly found in wide open areas on the SECOND search, and questioned why they weren't found on the first search; but after objection, judge overruled the question, saying it was more of a question for the jury to answer, not the witness
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Trial Transcript day 10 nuggets
some of these are not any big reveal or anything, just major points in the case, I thought
Day 11 will be interesting with the cross-examination of Culhane.
some of these are not any big reveal or anything, just major points in the case, I thought
- one of the forensic scientists who was present at the Crime Lab for the testing of the blood stains from the RAV4 has now retired --not sure why they even brought that up but
- Mr. Groffy, a lab tech, is 5' 11" and when he sat in the seat of the RAV4, his knees were touching the dash; another tech who is 5' 7" also found it to be a tight fit -- Google has Steven Avery listed as 5' 6"
- Crime Lab keeps a "contamination log" for any time there is a contamination incident and they also have a database with DNA profiles of all the lab techs on hand
- Sherry Culhane, the DNA expert who testified in the case, and her crew of 8-12 techs, logged only 89 contaminations out of ~50,000 samples since 2001
- basically they get the DNA profile, and determine a probability percentage match figure; it could match 50% of the population, which of course, wouldn't be a very solid match. Or it could, like in the matches they got for SA and TH, be something like a 1 in 4-quintillion match, or even 1 in a billion, which for the state of Wisconsin, is still a stone cold lead pipe lock
- there were ~345 items sent to the Crime Lab for the SA case, and ~180 sent to the DNA testing unit; both of which she testified as being a "unusually large number" of items for a case --this did strike me as odd.. hoping the Defense inquires about this
- blood samples from the cargo area, door frame, cargo door. and DNA from the Pepsi can in the console matched TH's DNA profile (definitive match)
- blood samples from garage, SA's car, and bathroom all of course matched SA's DNA profile (again, definitive match)
- sample from the RAV4 hood latch, which wasn't blood, also matched SA's profile and nobody else's --meaning nobody else ever touched that hood latch, ever?? like not even a mechanic, or someone changing the oil? I know the Defense brings this up in the case (the whole "sweat DNA" conversation)
- as discussed on the show, DNA testing for the infamous RAV4 key, showed a definitive match to SA's DNA profile; it's worth noting that the State asked Culhane if there were any other of the Averys' or Dasseys' profiles located on the key, to which of course she said no; nothing else was asked about the key, but I'm sure the Defense will have a question or two about it
Day 11 will be interesting with the cross-examination of Culhane.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Trial Transcript Day 11 nuggets
Day 11 did not disappoint. The defense's cross-examination of the much-debated DNA analyst took up most of the day. I made lots of notes. Read it in a couple of days last week, but haven't had time to type up my notes till now. Here we go...
Day 12 includes a Dassey family member as well as the guy that investigated the blood stains in the RAV4, who made a brief appearance in the documentary, IIRC.
Day 11 did not disappoint. The defense's cross-examination of the much-debated DNA analyst took up most of the day. I made lots of notes. Read it in a couple of days last week, but haven't had time to type up my notes till now. Here we go...
- evidence in the first SA trial (the wrongful conviction) sat in the Crime Lab, and SA sat in jail, for OVER A YEAR before the testing was done! --not that this is related to this case, it just blew my mind
- Culhane testified in the case to put SA away the first time; She also ran the tests that exonerated him; The tests they used to put him away the first time were "microscopic hair" tests that lots of labs used (basically, pubes under a microscope), but were later found to be unreliable once "real" DNA technology became available
- Culhane took notes on her call from Fassbender saying "try to put her in his house or garage. but she claimed it had no bearing on her analysis
- they swabbed another set of keys, the handcuffs, leg irons, RAV4 license plates, the .22 trigger guard area, and also checked the .22 barrel for traces of blood spatter
- no TH DNA was found on the cuffs or irons, but there was DNA found; no DNA at all found on RAV4 plates, or anywhere on the .22 --essentially the Defense was saying that these cuffs couldn't have been used to restrain TH, and hadn't been cleaned since there was other DNA found on them
- pg 62 the jury was excused and there was a discussion about possibility that the SA buccal swabs (cheek swabs for DNA sampling) from SA's first case were sent back to the Manitowoc PD, based on official Evidence Return forms (basically the audit trail on who has evidence and when); the State balked, saying this was a different point of contention than their "planted blood" defense; Defense contended that Culhane's testimony that there was DNA recovered (hood latch) that did not appear to have come from blood, opened up this avenue of questioning; Judge allowed defense to continue questioning about the forms
- forms mentioned above showed that Dave Remiker signed for the envelope with SA's DNA swabs in 2003
- Culhane testified that while SA's DNA was in the front seat area and rear passenger area, there was no SA DNA in the cargo area, nor on the inner or outer cargo door
- pg 104 Defense referenced an article that said that usually if someone else handles an item belonging to someone (such as the RAV key, in this case), that there will likely be a DNA mixture found on that item; Culhane disagreed, saying that if one was a good "shedder" (of DNA), it would override the mixture, basically; Defense reminded her, though, that not a lot of DNA was found on the key and she agreed
- Defense got Culhane to say that the bullet fragment was "washed" to get the DNA sample they used,and DNA could have come from any source ("it was nucleated cells"), and not necessarily from TH's blood --I feel like this was a big one.
- pg 106 no DNA of TH was found on ANY ITEM from SA's house, car or garage with the lone exception of the infamous bullet fragment
- SA DNA found in the analysis of the mysterious suspected blood stains from the garage, essentially saying that the floor wasn't cleaned with bleach
- no TH DNA found on the chunks of concrete they jackhammered up from the garage; SA's DNA was found one 1 of those chunks
- no TH DNA found on the barrel of the .22 and no SA DNA on the trigger area
- no SA DNA found on the RAV4 license plates (I know some of these are repeats, but it's because they got her to specifically answer the questions about each item now, after the more generalized "no DNA found" answer early on)
- pg 117 none of the tests on any of these items yielded any DNA matching Brendan Dassey's profile (which they did have a sample of for matching purposes)
- pg 143 saying the bullet fragment DNA was TH's, instead of inconclusive because of the contaminated (by Culhane herself) control sample, went against the lab's protocol
- pg 146 this is the only time in Culhane's 23 year career that she had filled out a "deviation from protocol" form and her supervisor didn't SIGN it (was supposed to), but Culhane said they had discussed the plan. Exhibit 347 --these forms are supposed to have 2 signatures, one being the supervisor of who filled it out
- Culhane did not mention in her final results, which the court, jury, etc. all rely on, that she had to file the deviation from protocol, although she said it was noted in her case notes
- State got her to add that she would've filed a deviation in the earlier SA case if the one hair test had come out like this DNA test
Day 12 includes a Dassey family member as well as the guy that investigated the blood stains in the RAV4, who made a brief appearance in the documentary, IIRC.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Trial Transcript Day 12 nuggets
The Blaine Dassey testimony was a confusing mess! I had to read and reread several pieces of it because of his confusing answers. I honestly don't know how the jury could have considered anything he said as fact. See for yourself below...
The Blaine Dassey testimony was a confusing mess! I had to read and reread several pieces of it because of his confusing answers. I honestly don't know how the jury could have considered anything he said as fact. See for yourself below...
- Defense started the day by trying to suppress and moved to strike all testimony related to the bullet fragment; State wanted time to reply and review transcripts; judge granted said time
- Stahlke, the blood stain expert, told defense that a lot of stains can be produced from a relatively small amount of blood
- pg 66 - Blaine Dassey said he saw SA bringing a plastic bag to the burn barrel on 10/31 at 3:40pm as he was getting off the bus with Brendan; also said that Brendan was home playing video games. at least until 5pm when Blaine left
- pg 71 - when Blaine Dassey got home at 11pm, he saw SA tending a bonfire by the garage; then after a couple of questions, he said he saw A PERSON, but did not KNOW it was SA; he also mentioned that he saw 4-5 foot flames in that fire; and also that Brendan was not in his bedroom when he (Bobby) went to bed that night
- pg 75 - Blaine, in prior interviews with police, had told them he had seen SA by the fire
- Blaine said at 3:45pm he saw the Suzuki (from SA's garage) outside the garage, along with the snowmobile (also from SA's garage)
- Blaine said Bobby Dassey was at home asleep at 3:45 when they got home from school
- pg 96 - Blaine told police on another interview on 11/7 that there was NO FIRE!
he recalled telling them about the burn barrel fire, but only after the 2nd or 3rd time they asked, and not the first time they asked
- pg 100 - Defense gave Blaine the police interview report to refresh his memory. That report said that they asked him if he saw SA on the afternoon of 10/31 and he had said NO
- pg 101 - on 11/11 Blaine told police he did NOT see a fire in the barrel nor did he see SA with a plastic bag!
- Defense got Blaine to point out that the Suzuki (referenced above) had been outside of the garage for 1 or 2 weeks prior to 10/31
- pg 103 - on 11/15 police interview, the agents got angry and got in his face a bit when asking questions and tried to convince him that his uncle SA was guilty and they walked off and left him and his mom in the restaurant they were interviewing him in, because he would not "turn" on SA
- pg 106 - Blaine said he was scared of SA because he used to boss he and his brothers around, yet he said he was not scared to testify against SA
- pg 115 - Bob Fabian was rabbit hunting with Earl Avery and they stopped near SA's trailer and he smelled plastic burning in the burn barrel on 10/31 right at dark; he saw SA leave his trailer and was heading towards the garage, but he stopped and came and talked to them for a few minutes; Defense countered this by asking if Bob saw anyone actually place anything in the barrel (of course, he didn't), didn't see or smell tires burning, and just for kicks, added that he was using a .22 rifle for rabbit hunting
- Scott Tadych said he saw Bobby Dassey just before 3pm on the highway
- pg 131 - Tadych said he saw SA at the fire behind his garage around 7:45pm on 10/31 and reported seeing 8-10 foot flames "as high as the garage"
- Defense brought up 11/29 police interview of Tadych saying he saw 2 PEOPLE at the garage fire between 5:15 and 5:30pm, but testified on this day that he didn't see a fire at 5:15; in that same report he had said the garage fire was 3 feet high
- a third Tadych police interview on 3/30/06, he told them Barb Janda spend the night at his house, but testified on this day that she watched Prison Break for about an hour and a half then went home around 10:30
- pg 155 - SA's cell phone showed call to TH (7 seconds) at 2:24pm and 2:35pm (0 seconds) with the *67 block feature enabled, and that he had called Auto Trader earlier that morning; another call to TH (0 seconds) at 4:35pm; other calls that afternoon: 5:57pm to Charles Avery (5m 23s) and 9:20pm to Barb Janda (0s)
- pg 170 - the 4:35pm call showed a duration of 11 seconds on the official company records, yet the summary document prepared by the prosecutor showed 0seconds; the cell company rep testified that it could have been a call that went to voicemail; --there was a little back and forth on this through the day; final solution was that the State would verify the record information again, and if necessary correct the summary document; defense and the judge were agreeable with that solution
- pg 176 - Cingular records of TH's phone show no cell site (aka tower) communication after the 4:35pm call --makes me wonder what the Zellner lady has found on this, as that would tend to go directly against this "fact"
- pg 200 - jury excused; Defense brought forth discussion about the voicemails being checked after 10/31, when the State claimed TH's phone was already destroyed; judge wouldn't allow for now, but didn't exclude it either and asked for time to think on the issue; State argued it was BS if Defense was now claiming that TH was alive after 10/31, but Defense said no it was to show that they didn't properly investigate who checked the voicemails because of bias towards SA --I thought it was a perfectly valid point the Defense raised, and don't understand why they judge wouldn't hear more on it, so hoping it comes back up.
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
I enjoy reading these updates
Apple Juice
Footballguy
Yeah good stuff man. Made me think about how long it's been since anything has been in the mainstream news about all this. I have a feeling one day some revelation is going to come out of the blue and get everybody buzzing about it again.
Zellner just filed a 90 day extension that was granted on May 30th, so no fireworks until late August.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Trial Transcript Day 13 nuggets
This day was rather boring, as most of it was testimony by the doctor who was the forensic anthropologist for the case, talking about human bone structure and the detailed analysis she did on all the bone fragments that were recovered, including the gunshots to the skull, which made an appearance in the documentary
This day was rather boring, as most of it was testimony by the doctor who was the forensic anthropologist for the case, talking about human bone structure and the detailed analysis she did on all the bone fragments that were recovered, including the gunshots to the skull, which made an appearance in the documentary
- DCI Agent Tom Sturdivant testified that no photos were taken of the burn pit before they started shoveling the area to sift it's contents.
- Anything picked out of the sifter was placed in a box with no markings as to where they were found in the pit
- Sturdivant "accepted responsibility and the resulting criticism" for not having the area photographed before they began
- Dr. Donald Simley tested the dental remains that were found at the site and said these were the worst burned fragments he had ever worked with in 25 years of experience in the field, including cases that involved house and vehicle fires; he surmised that it was either due to higher than normal temperatures or longer duration of exposure
- TH's oldest brother, Tim, is an attorney --random factoid; there was no other mention of him, just wondered if he had any input; not sure else the State would have elicitied this fact in testimony (from TH's mother, who only was asked a few questions by the State on this day)
- Enter Dr. Leslie Eisenberg, the acclaimed forensic anthropologist; she said that there were 58 skull fragments found in the remains sent to here, or at least she was able to identify 58 as skull fragments; there may have been more
- bone fragments were found for almost every possible bone below the neck; plus a few that couldn't be definitely determined to be human, in some cases because they were just burned too badly; all of these referenced were from the burn pit area
- human bone fragments including the shoulder blade plus possible hand and spinal bones were found in "Burn Barrel 2" which was at Barb Janda's residence
- For all the bone fragments which it could be determined on, she said they were consistent with being a female of the age range of TH
- Defense got Eisenberg to say that she could not be certain that the gunshots to the skull were administered prior to death (in other words, there was no way to tell that the gunshots weren't fired into an already dead body)
- Defense also got her to say that of all her analysis, there was only evidence of TWO gun shot wounds, not 10 or 11 (the number of shell casings recovered in the garage)
- The bone fragments recovered from Janda Burn Barrel 2 were charred in the same manner as the ones recovered in the burn pit behind SA's garage
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Trial Transcript Day 14 nuggets
Mostly uneventful day, IMHO. FInished up with Dr. Eisenberg, then the other star witness was William Newhouse, the guy that examined the .22 cartridge casings, and the infamous item FL, the bullet fragment.
3 more days of State witnesses, 2 of which are weather-shortened apparently, then we get into the Defense's 2 days of witnesses, then other motions, jury requests, etc.
Mostly uneventful day, IMHO. FInished up with Dr. Eisenberg, then the other star witness was William Newhouse, the guy that examined the .22 cartridge casings, and the infamous item FL, the bullet fragment.
- 2 bone fragments, believed to be pelvic bone fragments, were found in the quarry area south of the Avery property, but Eisenberg was unable to conclude with certainty if they were human, though she suspected they were human; these fragments contained cut markings
- 10 more fragments found in the quarry area, which may or may not have been human, one of which definitely appeared to be human, according to Eisenberg; these fragments were burned like the ones from the other 2 sites, and also fragmented similarly
- Eisenberg concluded from the above that collectively from the garage burn pit, Janda burn barrel and the quarry finds, she believed bones had been moved by some human
- because there were no markings or breakage on any of the fragments (that would indicate they had definitely been moved after burning), she also could not rule out the possibility that there was more than one burn site (other than the garage burn pit)
- both lawyer teams stipulated (agreed) that all bone fragments were sent to the DNA lab and due to the condition of the fragments, no DNA exams could be performed on them
- Newhouse, the gun expert, said that all 11 casings matched the tool markings from his test fire casings of SA's Marlin .22 rifle
- Newhouse said that item FL, the infamous bullet fragment found in SA's garage, was without a doubt fired from SA's .22 rifle; but item FK, the other recovered bullet fragment, could not be determined to be from SA's rifle (not that it definitely wasn't, just that it couldn't be positively matched to it)
- the rest of the day basically was hooplah about the FL bullet fragment, including close up photos; Defense tried to bring up some reports that were a result of Newhouse's investigation, because some, and item FL in particular, were not signed by his supervisor, but as it turns out, the ones that were signed, had just been selected in an efficiency audit; Newhouse said the fact that he was able to run a report at all, signed or not, proved that his supervisor had "signed off" on their computer system, because that's the way the system worked. No sign off, no report can be generated. --this seemed like a bit of a desperation move by the defense to me
3 more days of State witnesses, 2 of which are weather-shortened apparently, then we get into the Defense's 2 days of witnesses, then other motions, jury requests, etc.
32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
mquinnjr
Footballguy
Unrelated to MaM, but somewhat related: Making a Murderer Filmmakers Taking on "America's Most Admired Lawbreaker" Johnson & Johnson With Next Project.
Well, that sounds kind of dumb.
Also unrelated to MaM but somewhat related: A guy who was released from prison 16 years after being falsely imprisoned, who served time with Avery, said recently on the family's facebook that Steven was not a murderer. Yea, okay, w/e. But this guy's (Don Miller) own story is pretty fascinating:
http://anatomyofawrongfulconviction.blogspot.co.uk/p/anatomy-of-wrongful-conviction-part-2.html
The TL;DR of it is that he was falsely accused of rape by a live in GF. This woman was a crazy person who went around accusing people of rape anytime they crossed her and has convictions on her record for lying to the cops. So this guy gets convicted because A.) The judge won't allow any of the mountains of evidence that destroy this woman's credibility because B.) The judge was pounding-out the same chick (BTW... this lady was at a guy's house she had a restraining order on at the time she claims to have been raped). Prosecutor destroys the rapekit before trial because he had it tested (seals were broke) and knew the results were not good for his case. Anyway, it's a horrible story, but the absolute WORST PART is that Don Miller's son ended up committing suicide to bring more attention to his father's case, and it worked, he was released about a year later. Heartbreaking
mquinnjr
Footballguy
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Trial Transcript Day 15 nuggets
short day, so not much to report
short day, so not much to report
- Kenneth Olson, forensic scientist, tested for, and found, traces of lead on the skull bone fragments with the holes; yet the Defense got him to say he was never given item FL, the bullet fragment, for testing its makeup (whether it was a plain lead vs copper coated bullet, etc.) --I thought this was a very valid point by the Defense, just not sure it made an impact with the jury; I think they could have fleshed out the questioning a little more to expound (like: "would you have expected to find any traces of copper as well if the bullet had been tested and found to been a coated one?")
- Olson was also given the headboard from SA's bedroom to test for the presence of rope fibers; none were found
- Pretty much the rest of the day was testimony by Dr. Jeffrey Jentzen, the county medical examiner. It was very similar in nature as Dr. Eisenberg's testimony. He surmised the cause and manner of death to be gunshot wounds and homicide, respectively. Again, just as with Eisenberg, Defense brought up the point that there was no proof that the gunshots were necessarily the cause of death. For rebuttal, the prosecution of course brought up how common these expert opinions were in homicide cases, and Jentzen said they were a matter of reviewing all the forensic evidence as well as all the information from police and investigators to help form the expert opinions. Defense got a little jab in by making note of the fact that no defense attorneys were present for the testing; only the prosecuting attorneys. --I guess I see the value in arguing the cause and manner of death, but it reeked a little of desperation on the part of the Defense to me, especially now that the argument was made twice (but I guess if it was made once already, they had to remain consistent and do it again (I was wondering after reading the Dr's testimony if they would bring up that argument again, and they did indeed), and I truly wonder if that had some bearing on the jury's decision in the end.
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Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Trial Transcript Day 16 nuggets
Day 16 was a motion hearing, outside the presence of the jury, about testimony from Dr. Lebeau and allowing the EDTA testing results as evidence for the jury to consider, meaning the testing of the blood stains from the RAV4, to determine if they came from the vial of SA's blood that was on hand from his previous trial. I assume the events that led to this motion hearing happened in another pre-trial hearing, as there had been no mention of it prior to the conclusion of the Day 15 record.
As a refresher, EDTA is one of the main chemicals used to add to blood vials to keep blood from clotting, so that it remains liquid, and testable, for a long period of time. When blood gets put into storage vials, the tops are color coded as to what chemical (if any) they contain. EDTA tubes are purple-topped. SA's vial (from his previous trial) was a purple-topped one.
Day 16 was a motion hearing, outside the presence of the jury, about testimony from Dr. Lebeau and allowing the EDTA testing results as evidence for the jury to consider, meaning the testing of the blood stains from the RAV4, to determine if they came from the vial of SA's blood that was on hand from his previous trial. I assume the events that led to this motion hearing happened in another pre-trial hearing, as there had been no mention of it prior to the conclusion of the Day 15 record.
As a refresher, EDTA is one of the main chemicals used to add to blood vials to keep blood from clotting, so that it remains liquid, and testable, for a long period of time. When blood gets put into storage vials, the tops are color coded as to what chemical (if any) they contain. EDTA tubes are purple-topped. SA's vial (from his previous trial) was a purple-topped one.
- no EDTA was found on any of the submitted swabs (the dashboard/ignition, door panel, CD casing) from this case
- they ran a sample control test on blood from the SA vial to make sure EDTA was detected and it was; even with the smallest measurable sample size (1 microliter, which is a microscopic fraction of one drop of blood)
- they tested old blood samples with EDTA, which were stains on a paper lab card, that had been stored for 2 years; those were swabbed and EDTA was detected
- they had only ever tested for EDTA in a bloodstain one other time in history; that time was the OJ Simpson trial
- FBI scientists believe the OJ results may have had flawed testing protocols
- Defense elicited the testimony from Dr. Lebeau that the State didn't contact the FBI about EDTA testing until December 2006, when they could have done so in February 2006
- FBI originally said that it would be 4-6 months to do the testing, but State pushed back because the trial date was in February; they updated the estimated timeframe to 3-4 months; they worked long hours and weekends to try and meet the deadline, but made no guarantees to the State that they would meet it
- the EDTA testing protocol which they created for the SA case wasn't peer-reviewed by anyone outside of the FBI
- Dr, Lebeau could tell the cap of the SA blood vial had been removed when he received it for testing
- Dr.L didn't know what the storage conditions were for the blood vial while it was in custody --Defense was eliciting this to say that he couldn't have known what degradation of the EDTA might have occurred due to not knowing the storage conditions
- Dr. L didn't know how EDTA might react on different surfaces it was applied to (such as a dashboard or a CD case), or if there may have been chemicals with EDTA on those surfaces (Armor All, cleaners, etc.) --I thought this was a VERY valid point by the Defense, but in the end it didn't matter; we will hear about this again though. stay tuned
- not a factoid, but Defense compared this judge to Judge Ito from the OJ case, in that he was being forced to make a decision on questionable test results; said it was an exclusive club with one member, Ito, and this judge was vying to be the second member
- Dr. L only did one study to determine the durability (the aforementioned lab card stains) of EDTA over time, and that study was used as his basis for saying that EDTA was stable over time
- in the end, the Judge said Dr. L's testimony was admissible, and while Defense raised some very valid points and questions, the decision about the testimony itself should lie with the jury; he also ruled that the Defense could not do followup testing because they had a chance to do it earlier and didn't take the opportunity when it came up, and testing now could delay the trial for months, and it would be difficult to keep the jury from hearing/talking/reading (which they are instructed by the judge that they are not allowed to do) about the case during that off time
- BUT the judge also said he might have ruled differently on this matter had it occurred before the trial started
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
also Zellner's latest vague tweet:
Kathleen Zellner @ZellnerLaw Jul 5
If you think we are just tweeting...think again. A tsunami of new evidence is on the way. @MakingAMurderer
tsunami!!!!!1!!~
Kathleen Zellner @ZellnerLaw Jul 5
If you think we are just tweeting...think again. A tsunami of new evidence is on the way. @MakingAMurderer
tsunami!!!!!1!!~
TheAristocrat
Footballguy
Thanks again, NRJ
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Steve Avery has used up his appeals to no avail and is in jail, where he will remain unless his new attorney, Zellner, can come up with sufficient new evidence to get his conviction overturned. That is her specialty and she claims it's coming, so stay tuned.
Brendan Dassey, whose 'forced confession' ulmitately put Steve away, remains in jail also, but has appeals yet to file. (my link)
here are some of the other key players (article is a few months old): http://bgr.com/2016/01/21/making-a-murderer-where-are-they-now-james-lenk-colborn/
Ted Stickles
Footballguy
Thanks for taking the time to draft these up Jessep! I really enjoy your cliff notes and staying abreast of the latest developments.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
Wow, this is pretty interesting. The defense never questioned this neighbor huh.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
that's what I was thinking! And somewhere in the comments of one of these things (can't remember where exactly, I clicked a few things as I was poking around), someone brought up the question of why they didn't investigate Coburn's cell phone records for when he called the plates in, to get an idea of his location.
Captain Cranks
Footballguy
I can personally attest to this. I was deposed by federal prosecutors for some activities my previous company was involved in. I can assure you that the truth was not a concern of theirs. Instead, it was all about trying to get me to admit to guilt so that they could check another one in the win column. That was a real eye opening experience for me. I assumed people in these positions are there to seek the truth. Nope.
Binky The Doormat
Footballguy
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
When I saw this thread was bumped I was hoping for some new trial nuggets or update on the case. Sadbanana
Captain Cranks
Footballguy
Sorry. Just me catching up with the series. I regret not being a part of the phenomenon back in January. It's a fascinating story that unfortunately ingrained my cynicism of our criminal justice system.
On the other hand, I learned that I need increase my cynicism of people in general. I tend to give people way too much credit for being ethical and would have never guessed Steven Avery was capable of the things the 'outside-the-documentary' evidence suggests. I came away from the documentary thinking he was innocent, but after reading some of the other accusations (molestation, torture chamber ideas), I'm not so sure.
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